Alternative to Favored Class [Archive] - Wizards Community

Alternative to Favored Class [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Tectorman
05-30-07, 01:19 PM If someone has already done a thread like this, I didn't know, I didn't see it.

That said...

The favored class rule seems to limit a lot of interesting player backgrounds, stories, concepts, etc. The feat Additional Favored Class in the Unearthed Arcana book (lets you treat any one class of your choice as another favored class) was created to offset this.

But if I just wanted to get rid of the entire rule, then one of the biggest advantages of humans (and half-elves, and a few other races) would be negated.

So, what would you replace it with for those races?
Pellanor
05-30-07, 01:22 PM You could simply remove or reduce multiclassing penalties for those races.
wonlee76
05-30-07, 01:25 PM Just curious but what kind of backgrounds, stories, concepts, etc. are barred due to the favored class rule? The only thing the favored class rule does is give an xp penalty. A penalty doesn't prevent a player from going through with their concept, it just makes them slower learners or the player has to adapt their concept in such a way to avoid the multi-class xp penalty, which in general is not that hard to do.
Tectorman
05-30-07, 01:55 PM You could simply remove or reduce multiclassing penalties for those races.

Um, I guess I should rephrase...

I'm trying to remove the whole idea of a multiclassing penalty in the first place.

Understand now?

As to the other post, one example would be a character who grew up in an oppressive system (for simplicity's sake, think Jasmine), she doesn't want that life, her ancestors, even her parents, are evil, her only source of peace of mind is her Art (that's martial arts, i.e., Monk, though in her case it's more Chaos Monk), then she finds out that she has fiendish blood in her (the kind that makes a class like Warlock a possibility.

Obviously, I'm not going into the whole thing, but there's one.

I don't deny that there are already pre-existing ways of getting around those penalties; I'm just wondering what to do instead of having them in the first place.
Disciple_of_Juiblex
05-30-07, 02:19 PM Im personally going to change multiclassing in the next campain i set up, though i havent run it by my players yet. Ive been thinking for awhile about it and finnaly came up with a potential solution.

Im thinking that for every level you gain in your favored class you gain an additional 2 HP.

Now its a nice bonus (a potential extra 40 hp) but not something you cant live without. the only problem in my book is that it makes humans even better, but they end up playing humans anyways 80% of the time for the feat and skill points.
Lord_Cerventes
05-30-07, 03:16 PM I don't know if this would work for your group, but in my group we don't use XP. At the end of the adventure we always level up. We feel that this way, unimportant combat can be avoided and no one will feel like they have to kill stuff to level. None of us ever play item creation types or intend to pay off a level adjustment, so as i said. It may not work for you.
Neutronium_Dragon
05-30-07, 03:21 PM Basically, back when 3.0E came out, the folks who put it together said that favored class was a flavor element and not something which was really factored into mechanical balance; as such you can just ignore it without any problems at all.

While you might see the human and half-elf "any" as an advantage, it's only so under certain circumstances; in other cases a specific favored class is a better idea under the current penalty system. For example, a dwarf is better off with something like fighter 2/rogue 6/ranger 6 than a human is.

As such it's not really something which needs to be compensated for in any way.
YabaTheWhat
05-30-07, 04:31 PM The conan rules have a pretty good method of handling favored class. If you reach a certain number of levels in your favored class, you get a bonus feat. Take some more levels in it, get another bonus feat. For humans, this would almost guarantee extra bonus feats over time. At the same time, it doesn't restrict anyone else from multiclassing heavily, or taking dips into a few different classes.
InkBlot
05-30-07, 06:05 PM I like the sound of the Conan varient. It makes it so, for example, half-orc barbarians are actualy better barbarians than elfs are. How many levels do you need to get the bonus feat?

Racial substitution levels are also a good substitue for favored class. The only downside is that you would need to come up substitution levels for every race.
1DHandful
05-30-07, 06:36 PM My group has always run Favored Class as '1st level class, regardless of race'. This allows for the varied backgrounds the OP lamented hamstringing by RAW.

As for advantages, Humans have a bonus feat and bonus Skill points as it is, making them already very well advantaged and represented.

For Halfelves, allegedly, they were supposed to have an 'improved' Favored Class: Any built into their mechanics, but I've yet to see this make any difference in gameplay. Halfelves as written are weak enough that people generally take them for roleplaying concerns, rather than numeric advantages, anyway. Notable exceptions, like the Diplomancer on the CO board, do exist, but its strength is not the favored class benefit by any stretch of the imagination.
Jaxgaret
05-30-07, 07:08 PM FC: Any barely registers on the power scale, as things go. I would say that a +1 bonus to a single skill would be a fair exchange for Humans and Half-Elves in a campaign world that has dropped the Favored Class rules.
ragoftag
05-30-07, 10:09 PM YabaTheWhat The conan rules have a pretty good method of handling favored class. If you reach a certain number of levels in your favored class, you get a bonus feat. Take some more levels in it, get another bonus feat. For humans, this would almost guarantee extra bonus feats over time. At the same time, it doesn't restrict anyone else from multiclassing heavily, or taking dips into a few different classes.
Dang! that sounds like a keeper! could allow PCs to shine in their race's favored class. Er, how many levels?
Gentlemanic
05-31-07, 03:26 AM Why not allow players to change it, if they make a good story?

For example: In one of my campaigns elves travelled the world as bards and minstrels mostly. So I allowed a player elf to take bard as a favored class.

In another campaign halflings are close to nature, and nature's messagers and traders. They became rangers as favored class.
YabaTheWhat
05-31-07, 07:55 AM My group has always run Favored Class as '1st level class, regardless of race'. This allows for the varied backgrounds the OP lamented hamstringing by RAW.Except that it doesn't. If every halfling has to take rogue for their first class level, then every halfling has to have a background involving some aspect of the rogue. At least with normal favored class rules, you can play a halfling wizard and stick with it without getting penalized. Then imagine the poor elven rogue, who is forced to give up all the rogue's first-level skill points because he had to take a level of wizard first. Ouch.

I don't have the Conan book with me at the moment, so I don't recall for certain, but I think it was something like 1st level and every 4 levels thereafter. That fills the level 5 gap, where there's no increase in saving throws and only martial classes increase BAB (which in some cases is their only benefit for the level). Keep in mind that this guarantees another bonus feat for humans and half-elves (who have favored class: any) at first level, because their first-level class is their favored class, unless and until they gain more levels in a different class. Feel free to tinker with it for your own setting, of course. Im personally going to change multiclassing in the next campain i set up, though i havent run it by my players yet. Ive been thinking for awhile about it and finnaly came up with a potential solution.

Im thinking that for every level you gain in your favored class you gain an additional 2 HP.

Now its a nice bonus (a potential extra 40 hp) but not something you cant live without. the only problem in my book is that it makes humans even better, but they end up playing humans anyways 80% of the time for the feat and skill points. This would work too. It's basically the same concept; you reward people for taking their favored class, instead of penalizing them for taking other classes.
MerlintheTuna
05-31-07, 08:04 AM Except that it doesn't. If every halfling has to take rogue for their first class level, then every halfling has to have a background involving some aspect of the rogue.I get the impression that you've got this backwards, Yaba. It sounds like he's saying that you basically pick your favored class at first level, not that you're forced to start with your race's favored class.
EvilVegan
05-31-07, 08:20 AM Well it involved a lot more work for me, but I removed all multiclassing penalties and custom tailored "paragon classes" which granted different bonuses.

For instance my "Dwarven Fighter" over the course of 20 levels gained 2 bonus fighter feats and additional constitution bonuses, as well as improving his darkvision range and stonecunning.

So instead of making them have penalties for not doing something, I gave them bonuses for doing it.

Dwarves made the best melee warriors of all the PC races.

I boosted humans by making an alternate progression of feats by level, giving them 1 bonus at 1st (as normal) but then they get a new feat at 2,5,8,11,14,17, and 20 (still every 3rd level, but starting at 2nd, and now they get an extra capstone feat). I also gave them the ability to declare one additional skill as a class skill every 4 levels (and one at 1st). This made them good at anything, which is in line with everything "human" is supposed to be.

But my campaign is a bit higher powered than standard.
Steely_Dan
05-31-07, 08:21 AM Favoured classes, multi-class restrictions (monks and paladins etc) and XP penalties are antiquated, pseudo holdovers.

The best way to implement a races proclivity towards a certain class is substitution levels.
sigma999
05-31-07, 03:43 PM Give a single free background feat from Unearthed Arcana, PHB2, or your own design, appropriate to the favored class.
Grizzled Gryphon
05-31-07, 04:51 PM You could do what I have done in all my games I run. I don't have multiclassing penalties. You make this out to be a huge benefit of playing humans, but in reality it isn't anything of consequence. My games have not been turned on there ear. The other races aren't suddenly more powerful becuase of it. No one that has played in my games has, upon hearing there are no multiclassing penalties, said "Well, if THAT is the case, then I will play a Dwarf instead of Human, then".

Everything is still balanced. Humans still get there bonus feat and skill points (the REAL benefit of the race, mind you). In fact, when I told my players there are no multiclassing penalties, they said "oh"; as they, too, didn't think it was all that big a deal.

If you replace it with another feat, then you will have a LOT of people playing that race. This is no where near as impressive a class feature as a feat, or even a few skill points. Jut drop the multiclassing penalties, and go from there.
Otto the Bugbear
05-31-07, 09:38 PM From my homepage...

Multi-classing penalties do not exist (because they were a stupid idea and were included to placate whiny 2nd edition play-testers). Wow, that was easy. The favored class mechanic changes two ways. First, every race has two favored classes. Second, characters are considered to have +1 level for class abilities when they multi-class with one of their race’s favored class. This only advances class special abilities. It does not advance base attack bonus, base save bonus, spellcasting, hit dice, or skills (neither skill points nor maximum skill ranks). For example, elves have ranger and druid as favored classes. An elf with 2 levels of ranger and 6 levels of fighter gains class abilities as if he were a 3rd level ranger. His fighter class abilities remain at his actual class level. An elf with 4 levels of ranger and 4 levels of druid must choose to have the class abilities of either a 5th level ranger or a 5th level druid. This does not cover Hit Dice, Base Attack Bonus, Skill Points or Ranks, Spellcasting or Base Saving Throws.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tectorman 05-30-07, 01:19 PM	If someone has already done a thread like this, I didn't know, I didn't see it. That said... The favored class rule seems to limit a lot of interesting player backgrounds, stories, concepts, etc. The feat Additional Favored Class in the Unearthed Arcana book (lets you treat any one class of your choice as another favored class) was created to offset this. But if I just wanted to get rid of the entire rule, then one of the biggest advantages of humans (and half-elves, and a few other races) would be negated. So, what would you replace it with for those races?
Pellanor 05-30-07, 01:22 PM	You could simply remove or reduce multiclassing penalties for those races.
wonlee76 05-30-07, 01:25 PM	Just curious but what kind of backgrounds, stories, concepts, etc. are barred due to the favored class rule? The only thing the favored class rule does is give an xp penalty. A penalty doesn't prevent a player from going through with their concept, it just makes them slower learners or the player has to adapt their concept in such a way to avoid the multi-class xp penalty, which in general is not that hard to do.
Tectorman 05-30-07, 01:55 PM	You could simply remove or reduce multiclassing penalties for those races. Um, I guess I should rephrase... I'm trying to remove the whole idea of a multiclassing penalty in the first place. Understand now? As to the other post, one example would be a character who grew up in an oppressive system (for simplicity's sake, think Jasmine), she doesn't want that life, her ancestors, even her parents, are evil, her only source of peace of mind is her Art (that's martial arts, i.e., Monk, though in her case it's more Chaos Monk), then she finds out that she has fiendish blood in her (the kind that makes a class like Warlock a possibility. Obviously, I'm not going into the whole thing, but there's one. I don't deny that there are already pre-existing ways of getting around those penalties; I'm just wondering what to do instead of having them in the first place.
Disciple_of_Juiblex 05-30-07, 02:19 PM	Im personally going to change multiclassing in the next campain i set up, though i havent run it by my players yet. Ive been thinking for awhile about it and finnaly came up with a potential solution. Im thinking that for every level you gain in your favored class you gain an additional 2 HP. Now its a nice bonus (a potential extra 40 hp) but not something you cant live without. the only problem in my book is that it makes humans even better, but they end up playing humans anyways 80% of the time for the feat and skill points.
Lord_Cerventes 05-30-07, 03:16 PM	I don't know if this would work for your group, but in my group we don't use XP. At the end of the adventure we always level up. We feel that this way, unimportant combat can be avoided and no one will feel like they have to kill stuff to level. None of us ever play item creation types or intend to pay off a level adjustment, so as i said. It may not work for you.
Neutronium_Dragon 05-30-07, 03:21 PM	Basically, back when 3.0E came out, the folks who put it together said that favored class was a flavor element and not something which was really factored into mechanical balance; as such you can just ignore it without any problems at all. While you might see the human and half-elf "any" as an advantage, it's only so under certain circumstances; in other cases a specific favored class is a better idea under the current penalty system. For example, a dwarf is better off with something like fighter 2/rogue 6/ranger 6 than a human is. As such it's not really something which needs to be compensated for in any way.
YabaTheWhat 05-30-07, 04:31 PM	The conan rules have a pretty good method of handling favored class. If you reach a certain number of levels in your favored class, you get a bonus feat. Take some more levels in it, get another bonus feat. For humans, this would almost guarantee extra bonus feats over time. At the same time, it doesn't restrict anyone else from multiclassing heavily, or taking dips into a few different classes.
InkBlot 05-30-07, 06:05 PM	I like the sound of the Conan varient. It makes it so, for example, half-orc barbarians are actualy better barbarians than elfs are. How many levels do you need to get the bonus feat? Racial substitution levels are also a good substitue for favored class. The only downside is that you would need to come up substitution levels for every race.
1DHandful 05-30-07, 06:36 PM	My group has always run Favored Class as '1st level class, regardless of race'. This allows for the varied backgrounds the OP lamented hamstringing by RAW. As for advantages, Humans have a bonus feat and bonus Skill points as it is, making them already very well advantaged and represented. For Halfelves, allegedly, they were supposed to have an 'improved' Favored Class: Any built into their mechanics, but I've yet to see this make any difference in gameplay. Halfelves as written are weak enough that people generally take them for roleplaying concerns, rather than numeric advantages, anyway. Notable exceptions, like the Diplomancer on the CO board, do exist, but its strength is not the favored class benefit by any stretch of the imagination.
Jaxgaret 05-30-07, 07:08 PM	FC: Any barely registers on the power scale, as things go. I would say that a +1 bonus to a single skill would be a fair exchange for Humans and Half-Elves in a campaign world that has dropped the Favored Class rules.
ragoftag 05-30-07, 10:09 PM	YabaTheWhat The conan rules have a pretty good method of handling favored class. If you reach a certain number of levels in your favored class, you get a bonus feat. Take some more levels in it, get another bonus feat. For humans, this would almost guarantee extra bonus feats over time. At the same time, it doesn't restrict anyone else from multiclassing heavily, or taking dips into a few different classes. Dang! that sounds like a keeper! could allow PCs to shine in their race's favored class. Er, how many levels?
Gentlemanic 05-31-07, 03:26 AM	Why not allow players to change it, if they make a good story? For example: In one of my campaigns elves travelled the world as bards and minstrels mostly. So I allowed a player elf to take bard as a favored class. In another campaign halflings are close to nature, and nature's messagers and traders. They became rangers as favored class.
YabaTheWhat 05-31-07, 07:55 AM	My group has always run Favored Class as '1st level class, regardless of race'. This allows for the varied backgrounds the OP lamented hamstringing by RAW.Except that it doesn't. If every halfling has to take rogue for their first class level, then every halfling has to have a background involving some aspect of the rogue. At least with normal favored class rules, you can play a halfling wizard and stick with it without getting penalized. Then imagine the poor elven rogue, who is forced to give up all the rogue's first-level skill points because he had to take a level of wizard first. Ouch. I don't have the Conan book with me at the moment, so I don't recall for certain, but I think it was something like 1st level and every 4 levels thereafter. That fills the level 5 gap, where there's no increase in saving throws and only martial classes increase BAB (which in some cases is their only benefit for the level). Keep in mind that this guarantees another bonus feat for humans and half-elves (who have favored class: any) at first level, because their first-level class is their favored class, unless and until they gain more levels in a different class. Feel free to tinker with it for your own setting, of course. Im personally going to change multiclassing in the next campain i set up, though i havent run it by my players yet. Ive been thinking for awhile about it and finnaly came up with a potential solution. Im thinking that for every level you gain in your favored class you gain an additional 2 HP. Now its a nice bonus (a potential extra 40 hp) but not something you cant live without. the only problem in my book is that it makes humans even better, but they end up playing humans anyways 80% of the time for the feat and skill points. This would work too. It's basically the same concept; you reward people for taking their favored class, instead of penalizing them for taking other classes.
MerlintheTuna 05-31-07, 08:04 AM	Except that it doesn't. If every halfling has to take rogue for their first class level, then every halfling has to have a background involving some aspect of the rogue.I get the impression that you've got this backwards, Yaba. It sounds like he's saying that you basically pick your favored class at first level, not that you're forced to start with your race's favored class.
EvilVegan 05-31-07, 08:20 AM	Well it involved a lot more work for me, but I removed all multiclassing penalties and custom tailored "paragon classes" which granted different bonuses. For instance my "Dwarven Fighter" over the course of 20 levels gained 2 bonus fighter feats and additional constitution bonuses, as well as improving his darkvision range and stonecunning. So instead of making them have penalties for not doing something, I gave them bonuses for doing it. Dwarves made the best melee warriors of all the PC races. I boosted humans by making an alternate progression of feats by level, giving them 1 bonus at 1st (as normal) but then they get a new feat at 2,5,8,11,14,17, and 20 (still every 3rd level, but starting at 2nd, and now they get an extra capstone feat). I also gave them the ability to declare one additional skill as a class skill every 4 levels (and one at 1st). This made them good at anything, which is in line with everything "human" is supposed to be. But my campaign is a bit higher powered than standard.
Steely_Dan 05-31-07, 08:21 AM	Favoured classes, multi-class restrictions (monks and paladins etc) and XP penalties are antiquated, pseudo holdovers. The best way to implement a races proclivity towards a certain class is substitution levels.
sigma999 05-31-07, 03:43 PM	Give a single free background feat from Unearthed Arcana, PHB2, or your own design, appropriate to the favored class.
Grizzled Gryphon 05-31-07, 04:51 PM	You could do what I have done in all my games I run. I don't have multiclassing penalties. You make this out to be a huge benefit of playing humans, but in reality it isn't anything of consequence. My games have not been turned on there ear. The other races aren't suddenly more powerful becuase of it. No one that has played in my games has, upon hearing there are no multiclassing penalties, said "Well, if THAT is the case, then I will play a Dwarf instead of Human, then". Everything is still balanced. Humans still get there bonus feat and skill points (the REAL benefit of the race, mind you). In fact, when I told my players there are no multiclassing penalties, they said "oh"; as they, too, didn't think it was all that big a deal. If you replace it with another feat, then you will have a LOT of people playing that race. This is no where near as impressive a class feature as a feat, or even a few skill points. Jut drop the multiclassing penalties, and go from there.
Otto the Bugbear 05-31-07, 09:38 PM	From my homepage... Multi-classing penalties do not exist (because they were a stupid idea and were included to placate whiny 2nd edition play-testers). Wow, that was easy. The favored class mechanic changes two ways. First, every race has two favored classes. Second, characters are considered to have +1 level for class abilities when they multi-class with one of their race’s favored class. This only advances class special abilities. It does not advance base attack bonus, base save bonus, spellcasting, hit dice, or skills (neither skill points nor maximum skill ranks). For example, elves have ranger and druid as favored classes. An elf with 2 levels of ranger and 6 levels of fighter gains class abilities as if he were a 3rd level ranger. His fighter class abilities remain at his actual class level. An elf with 4 levels of ranger and 4 levels of druid must choose to have the class abilities of either a 5th level ranger or a 5th level druid. This does not cover Hit Dice, Base Attack Bonus, Skill Points or Ranks, Spellcasting or Base Saving Throws.