Post/Author/DateTime	Post
kadeity 01-14-07, 05:15 PM	Dvati are a race found in the "Dragon Compendium Volume 1". What We know about Dvati For anyone who doesnt know, Dvati are a race of twins... but they arent just twins. They are two minds & a single soul, that inhabits two bodies. this has some very important effects. First, the Dvati are played by one player, and use only one character sheet. Dvati share expirience and level together, advancing as one character would,and only counting as one character for wealth and expirience points. They share the same statistics, except health points, for which the player only rolls one HD per level, splitting the points evenly between the two dvati, but adding the Con mod to BOTH dvati's total hp gained that level. Though the twins have seperate minds, their life essence is bound together by their single soul. Dvati are also constantly aware their twin since the two twins are telelpathically linked at all times, and may communicate telepathically across any distance, even across planes, though they do not share senses of touch, smell, sight or hearing. As a full round action One Dvati may determine his twins mental state, health points, and exact location if they are on the same plane. Any mind affecting effects that effect one twin affect both, as their telepathic bond is natural and nonmagical, and they are more of a single partitioned mind than they are two minds telepathically linked. What one twin has knowledge of, both twin have access too, though they are not immediately aware unless their twin telepathically informs them. Dvati make poor spellcasters because any act that requires the focus of one dvati requires the focus of both. To cast a spell, both dvati must spend the actions required to cast. A single Dvati can cast spells if the other twin does nothing. Dvati share spell slots, and many abilities. If one Dvati dies, the other wastes away quickly and usually dies soon after. The Dvati Language requires both twins to speak simuntaniously. If one twin is absent, then Dvati use common. Dvati are almost ALWAYS Neutral. Dvati appear pale, and always have black hair and blue eyes. Their abilities, though i will not post them in detail, are called Twins, Echo Attack, Pair Link, Spell Conductor & Darkvision. Dvati are +1. Their favored class is bard. (though they really make better rogues than anything else)
kadeity 01-14-07, 05:17 PM	Adjucating Dvati This is the real purpose of my post. I want to share some of the rulings ive made about playing dvati, and i want to ask a few questions. Here are my take on a few of the classes. PLAYERS HANDBOOK & COMPLETE ARCANE Dvati Sorcerers, Wizards, Wujen, Warmages, Shugenja, SpiritShaman, Beguilers, Archivists, and pretty much any other pure caster, are really really really really bad. They share spell slots and have to share actions to cast so your ability to take two turns just went to the crapper, and now your TWICE as vulnrable when casting. Dvati Warlocks are difficult to adjucate. I decided that they must both focus for the eldritch blast just like spellcasting, but that the other invoations are fine as is. If you dont make that choice, they can deal alot of damage, at will...which is nasty. Dvati Bards are pretty good, since they can both make simultaneous Perfom checks, but sadly they share bardic music uses per day and spells. Dvati Clerics share turn and rebuke slots, as well as spellslots... and really they dont make much better clerics than they do any other pure caster. Dvati Druids share wild shape per days and spells. Druid also gives you an extra animal companion to deal with... so you have pretty much got three characters. This can be good or bad... depending on how you see it. Whta DOES make a Dvati Druid worthwhile is the Shapeshift Variant ability in the PHB2. You lose wildshape and an animal companion, and you gain the ability to change into a shapeshifted form, as often as you want. these forms are pretty good for combat too... and you can have one whos in the form and one who isnt... meaning the Dvati make goooood shapeshift druids. Dvati Fighters have so many fun things you can do that its not even funny. But, like fighters, they wont relaly excell at many things. Dvati Barbarians are fun... since Rage is a bit of a mind effecting effect, i think both Dvati should be able to rage at once, using only one rage per day. However, this means they are both fatigued afterwards. Dvati Paladins are ESPECIALLY rare... since dvati tend toward neutrality. The mount ability becomes near useless since few mounts can carry you both. Smites run out Twice as fast... and spells are even more useless than before. DONT PLAY THIS. Dvati Monks are fairly common since Dvati tend toward neutrality, and they are a sight to behold. Flurry of blows is alot of fun when you can do it to the same guy twice, from two sides. The extra speed is fun, the unarmed damage is fun, and the flavor is great. Dvati Rangers are decent. The spells are more useless than before,and the animal companion is a waste of energy now, but the Dual wielding Twins are alot of fun... and the multiple arrow tricks are all alot more fun when you can easily double your arrows per round. Oh, and your favored enemies are already as good as dead. Dvati Rogues are the BEST. In fact, this is one of the most optimal things you can do with a Dvati. You can ALWAYS get your sneak attack damage, because you can ALWAYS have a flanker. You BOTH get that damage too...so youll quite literally assassinate groups en masse. The skill points are great too, since you can multitask like no ones business. COMPLETE ADVENTURER Dvati Scouts are a bit of fun too. You can just spend all day long running in circles, coughing up damage. Dvati Ninjas are worse than dvati rouges, because suddden strike doesnt give the damage on flanking... meaning that the ninjas arent nearly as fun...especially since all the ninjas cool abilities rely on a Ki pool, which the dvati share. Dvati Spelltheives are nasty. They are essentially MAGE KILLERS. They flank, stab and rob mages of their spells. They are good. They still have to share an action to cast anything, but they still killinate mages. PLAYERS HANDBOOK II Dvati Duskblades are awful. You cant use the spells really...so its like a dvati fighter without the feats. Dvati DragonShamans are really pretty good. Firstly, you both get a breath weapon, though if you both have to wait the 1d4 rounds until it can be used again is up to your dm. The BEST thing really comes in the Auras. You can effectively DOUBLE the area they cover if you and your twin dont stand near each other. Dvati Knights are more than fair, but you do share uses of the knights challenge ability. Your Armor and shield bonuses can make up for it if thats your style. COMPLETE WARRIOR Dvati Samurai share Kiai Smites, but are very good at dual wielding...and thats about it. Really everything that is good about this class for Dvati can be found in the ranger. Dvati Hexblades are bad for the same reason Paladins are, but are slightly more playable. Still, i would avoid this. Dvati Swashbucklers are preetttyyy nasty, especially if you optimize your dex and int, and focus on crits. Still, if thats what your lookign for, Rogue is still a better choice. EXPANDED PSIONICS HANDBOOK & COMPLETE PSIONIC Dvati who use [psionics are especially difficult to adjucate. Dvati are both affected by mind affecting effects, but they do ahve seperate minds.... so You have several difficult choices as a Dm... Do Dvati share Power Point reserves, or do they, because they have seperate but linked minds, have seperate pools? Do they share the action to manifest powers? If not can they both manifest as often as they like? When one dvati exausts his or her pp reserve, can he or she use the twins reserve? Can each Dvati become psioniclly focused on his or her own? ect. Dvati Ardents,Erudites, Psions & Wilders are effected most by these descisions... and your essentially desciding how they are effected by psionics. Dvati Psionic Warriors will either be formidable opponents, or mediocre. No matter how you adjucate them, they still wont be as bad as the magical GISH classes because they have bonus feats rather than class abilities. Dvati Soulknives are fair, but wether both must focus to crate the mind blade, or only one of the twins, is the make or break part of this class. Dvati DivineMinds are fair, and if you make favorable rulings for psionics, they are pretty fun. Their auras make them able to buff large areas since the dvati can split up. Dvati Lurks are suboptimal no matter your ruling, since they will likely share lurk Augments per day... the primary ability of the class. TOME OF BATTLE Dvati Share Maneuvers per encounter, and the manuever only effects one of the twins BUT one Dvati could use the Maneuver, and the other could recover the maneuver, putting it back in the manuevers per encounter pool. Dvati Crusaders seem like a really really really really bad idea. Steely resolve will KILL your dvati, quickly.Youll BOTH take that damage that was prevented with steely resolve.... which would SUCK. Dvati Swordsages have a lot of very good abilities, and even though they share Maneuvers, they have the most, and access to the most maneuvers... so your twins can use them more often. Dvati Warblades arent as great as swordsages, and arent as bad for the dvati as Crusaders. All in all a dvati warblade isnt a great choice. TOME OF MAGIC Dvati Binders are actually pretty good. Dvati share a soul, so its only one being making a pact with another being. Both dvati will gain the benifits of the pact, since the vestige is only bound to one soul. In fact binder is the easiest class to adjucate. All of the Pact benifits and penalties apply to both twins. Dvati Shadowcasters Work pretty much exactly like any other spellcaster. In short, they arent good at all. Both Dvati are gonna have to burn an action to cast... and youve got far fewer per days than any other primary casting class. Dvati Truenamers share a Truename, just as they share a soul. Dvati truenamers are fair, but difficult to play. If i had a player interested in playing one, i would probably houserule bonuses to Dvati who speak a truename together. MAGIC OF INCARNUM Dvati interact with incarnum in a very special way, as they share a soul, but have twice as many chakras as the usual Meldshaper. It is important to realize that Dvati twins share Essentia and the number of soulmelds they may have bound, as well as the number they may have shaped. The only real Advantage to playing a Dvati meldshaper is that you may have each twin have a soulmeld bound to the same chackra on each body, and though each counts against your soulmelds formed and bound, you can both have Throat chakra soulmelds bound, or whatever corresponding chakra you wish. Also, Dvati can use their Spell Conductor ability to hand off the benifits of a soulmeld bound to one twin to the other twin, since the soulmeld is bound to the same soul. One Major advantage is that Meldshaping classes are CON dependant, which which neutralizes the disadvantage of the Dvati Constitution ability dependance. Dvati Incarnates have a low hit die, and a low attack bonus... as well as having a per day ability that your twins must share. However, the Incarnate has the Largest Essentia Pool of the Incarnum classes, and allows your Dvati to have quite a few soulmelds... which is pretty good for them.... im just not sure if it can compensate for the low hit die. However, this is CERTAINLY a better alternative to any of the other caster-like classes. Dvati Soulborn have excellent hit die, and the best attack bonus, which are both good for the Dvati. However several of the Soulborns best abilities are per day abilities, which you will likely exhaust very quickly. The soulborn also do not have as many Meldshaping abilities as the other incarnum classes, meaning while this isnt a poor choice, it isnt a great one either. If you were wanting to play a Dvati Paladin however, this is the best choice for you... especially compared to the horrible alternatives of the Cleric,Crusader and the actual Paladin. Dvati Totemists give you the most flexability of any of the incarnum classes. They have Fair Hit die and a pretty good attack bonus, which is complimented by a pretty decent Essentia pool and a fair number of soulmelds. All in all this is probably the Best incarnum class for Dvati, since it gives some of the feel of a caster, while still having the survivability that the Dvati need. And as an added bonus, like all incarnum classes, it is constitution dependant! DRAGON COMPENDIUM Dvati Battle Dancers are pretty good actually, just as are Dvati Monks. They have a speed bonus and Charisma to AC, as well as unarmed damage. Dvati Death Masters are just as bad as a Dvati of any other pure primary spellcasting class, and the control of an undead minion, as well as summoning powers, only complicates the play of multiple characters. Dvati Jesters arent much of a stretch from Dvati Bards, and in fact the classes work in a very similar manner. Pretty much youll have some mild-spellcasting, which isnt so great for dvati, and youll be insulting your enemies all day...Which im not sure if you could combine with EchoAttack, but i think that it should be able to be. Dvati Montebanks are not so great, since your infernal patron abilities will share uses per day, and run out twice as fast. This class can still be fun if you take full advantage of the Deceptive strike in conjunction with the gaze attack. Its also a nifty way to deal extra damage to things immune to criticals. Dvati Savants are odd. You may as well not be able to cast Arcane or Diveine spells at all, since you ahve So few, and it takes so mcuh to cast them. However, you do get skill assistance, and a slow progression of sneak attack damage. I wouldnt take this class, but its not the worst choice. Dvati Sha'ir are horrible, as are most all Dvati Spellcasters... but i think if your reading this youve read far enough to know that. Dvati Urban Druids arent AWFUL, but they certainly arent good. The class does offer the rare chance for a dvati to not LOOK LIKE a dvati... and actually look like someone else. You also get the animated object companion, which even though its another pc you have to control... its fun. Alot of fun. As for spellcasting, you know the drill. MINIATURES HANDBOOK Dvati Favored Souls, Healers& Warmages are bad. because they are casters. Play them if your brave but i doubt youll live very long. Dvati Marshals are actually pretty good... and thats even with the marshal being a low power class. The real advantage comes from both Dvati radiating those auras. DRAGON MAGIC Dvati Dragonfire Adepts and how they work is largely dependant on how your DM decides their breath weapon works. They have pretty low BAB, and can use some pretty decent invocations, but the breath weapon is the class's main offensive power. and the dm will make or break it. EBERRON. Dvati Artificers are fair, but why a Dvati would be in Ebberon is a tough thing to explain. You likely have to both focus to use any infusions, BUT you can BOTH work on the magic items, which i would rule reduces the time somehow. You also have more slots for magic items... whcih is a big deal. You usually cant afford any good gear, since you have a normal character wealth for one character, but need twice as much gear. Playing an Artificer solves this problem...since you can just plain HAVE MORE STUFF. Also, Dvati cant usually cast spells much, since they both have to invest the actions to do so... but An artificer can craft spell completion items such as wands and scrolls, making a dvati caster more viable. Also, POTIONS are pretty much the only way you can have a Dvati healer... so look into it. Dvati and Variants The one thing that can make or break dvati, is variants. The THUG variant class from Unearthed Arcana has all the benifits of a Dvati rogue, plus more Hp. The Druidic Avenger Variant from Unearthed Arcana is really good as it allows you to gain rage and play a druid. I already mentioned the Shapeshift Variant for druids, but i also forgot to mention the Restoration variant.(both from PHB2) It lets you trade summon natures ally for an ability that lets you sac a spell to make an aura of fast healing equal to the spells level. THIS IS GOOD. Now though the fast healing auras likely dont stack, since they are from the same source, being able to grant fast healing in TWICE the area as before, is really good, and makes the BEST Dvati Healer you have seen so far. The phb2 Berserker Strength Variant for the Barbarian is particularly good for dvati since it activates based on your hit point total, which Dvati naturally ahve fewer of... though the dm could easily argue it doesnt activate based on one twins hp, but the sum of both twin hp instead. The phb2 Descisive Strike Variant for the monk is a pretty decent ability, and how you feel about it hinges heavily on how you feel about flurry of blows. The phb2 Disruptive Attack Variant for the Rogue is pretty good, since it means that one Dvati can sacrifice dealing sneak attack damage to lower the targets ac against the other Dvati's attack. Definetly getting Some damage is alot better than Maybe getting alot.
kadeity 01-14-07, 05:25 PM	My big Questions are about Dvati Culture. It seems to me that a culture leaning toward Neutrality, would have alot of Monks, and Philosophers. It mentions in their entry in the Dragon Compendium that many times when arguments arise, one Dvati will take one side, and the other will take the other side, deliberately tying top see it both ways. Their natural talent for the Rogue class, and ther Neutral bent makes me thing they would likely be a secretive culture, and be very good at protecting their secrets. Since they have Darkvision, they are likely either nocturnal or subterranean. so these guys seem like dualistic philosophical underdark type folks... still i have difficulty thinking about how they would function in warfare, or in real political situations. Honestly, most other races likely find them akward, or even creepy. I suppose they dont often choose war, but anyone "different" usually has a war brought to them. I guess they would be Guerella fighters more than modern warfare types.... and their distinct disadvantage in the area of magic makes them pretty vulnrable. ANYWAY, any thoughts? anyone else have any houserules or DVATI expiriences?
Manyfist 01-14-07, 07:33 PM	Ok now I've found the Dvati I would like to give my houserules. - I would modify this part: For a dvati to cast a spell both twins must focus on it, only one must supply actual components, but the other twin must take no action for the spell to work. to A single twin must focus on the spell, while the other twin is free to move up to a Dvati's movement rate. This would give them a little more survivability, if one can cast the spell, then the other flanks the opponent, the one twin thats casting will transfer it to the other Twin, and gain a flank bonus. - Damage is split between the bodies (if within 5' of each other) - Psionics: If one twin runs out of PP, and the other twin still has PP left, they're allow to share that last PP pool. (Same goes with spell slots, and Spells per day) - Got rid of Echo attack. They can't combine their voices, each has a different voice and tone.
Fallenangel359 01-15-07, 10:45 AM	I think dvati psionics without requiring both to focus might be okay... Dvati gives more actions as a tradeoff for less gear per dvati, and lower hp. Dvati are heavily effected by +con modifiers...
Zumarai 01-15-07, 11:26 AM	Check it out: "On May 21, 2006, at 2:43 PM, Thomas sørensen wrote: I have some questions about the Dvati from Dragon magazine #271(updated in Dragon compendium vol. 1): And I have some answers. :) Do they share a full-round action together or do they get seperate full-round actions? A dvati's twins share all of their actions. Between the two of them they get one standard action and one move action (although they can both move in the same move action), two move actions, or one full-round action. Such as a dvati fighter could get two full attack actions? No. The dvati twins share a single full-attack action. But they should share the max. character wealth between them, right? Yes. And do a dvati warlock have to focus at the same time when using invocations and eldritch blast or spell-like abilities? Yes. Only one spell-like ability per round between the two of them. It's easiest to think of a dvati character as a single character who just happens to have two bodies. The bodies either work together to do the same task, or one body does something and other just watches. I hope that helps! Mike McArtor Associate Editor Dragon Magazine"
JiCi 01-15-07, 12:28 PM	Kadeity, what about the classes from the Tomes ? I assume that Shadowcasters and Truenamers follow the rules as the other casters, but what about Binders ? Do both twins share a vestige's abilities ? Same goes with the maneuvers with the Crusaders, Swordsages and Warblades, yet it's more difficult. Do both twins can use a maneuver at the same time, or that only one twin gain the benefits from a maneuver ? Let's take the Time Stands Still and Raging Mangoose combo. Does only one twin use the maneuvers or do both twins use them ? If the latter is true, you could end up with a LOT of attacks.
kadeity 01-15-07, 12:28 PM	Check it out: "On May 21, 2006, at 2:43 PM, Thomas sørensen wrote: I have some questions about the Dvati from Dragon magazine #271(updated in Dragon compendium vol. 1): And I have some answers. :) Do they share a full-round action together or do they get seperate full-round actions? A dvati's twins share all of their actions. Between the two of them they get one standard action and one move action (although they can both move in the same move action), two move actions, or one full-round action. Such as a dvati fighter could get two full attack actions? No. The dvati twins share a single full-attack action. But they should share the max. character wealth between them, right? Yes. And do a dvati warlock have to focus at the same time when using invocations and eldritch blast or spell-like abilities? Yes. Only one spell-like ability per round between the two of them. It's easiest to think of a dvati character as a single character who just happens to have two bodies. The bodies either work together to do the same task, or one body does something and other just watches. I hope that helps! Mike McArtor Associate Editor Dragon Magazine" FIRST,That guy isnt the person who designed the Dvati... and so hes really doing nothing more than house-ruling them into oblivion, even if he is the Associate editor at Dragon. Second, the Dvati entry makes SEVERAL statements that fly in the face of whathe said. First, it says they Both must take the actions to cast the spell, or that one twin may cast the spell if the other twin takes no action. This implies that OTHERWISE, they could take simultanious actions to do other things. Then it says a bit before that "these two creatures move and take actions seperately, but have a number of restrictions based on their connection" and then it goes on to list the restrictions. It uses the example of both twins having equal access to power attack to explain the sharing of feats. Never once does it say that dvati share the same number of actions a normal character does, and in fact it has more evidence to support that it DOES NOT work in this way. The Dvati Both recieve individual turns,and can both take full attack actions if they so chooose, but their Low Hp, and the fact that if one dies, they both die, is more than enough to keep them out of combat as a general rule. Even a Dvati barbarian wont have enough hp to function as a primary tank... and the Constitution Dependancy of a Dvati only ADDS to the stat dependance of any class choice. Keep in mind that Dvati share a SOUL not a MIND. Their minds are STRONGLY LINKED, but are not the same mind. The link causes mind effecting effects to affect both, but that same link doesnt allow each dvati to percieve what the other is percieving. So it would seem that MAGIC treats dvati as if they share a mind, but all other forces, dont. Dvati Cons: +1 LA Split Hit die hp, are CON dependant. If one dies both die. Major Spell-casting Restrictions... (such as sharing actions to cast, sharing spell per day pool) Vulnrability to Mind-altering effects Share ability loss, and Negative levels Twice as much Equipment, with half the character wealth. Dvati Pros Two sets of actions Flanking benifits Spell conductor Echo attack Darkvision If you remove the dual sets of actions, then DVATI ARE HORRIBLE. worse than Pre-races of the dragon-Kobolds. Its their only real compensation for their HEFTY restrictions... There are a small number of players who use dvati, and most have seen that editors faq. That editor has caused even MORE confusion about an already confusing race... just because he didnt take the time to really READ the entry in dragon.
kadeity 01-15-07, 12:32 PM	Kadeity, what about the classes from the Tomes ? I assume that Shadowcasters and Truenamers follow the rules as the other casters, but what about Binders ? Do both twins share a vestige's abilities ? Same goes with the maneuvers with the Crusaders, Swordsages and Warblades, yet it's more difficult. Do both twins can use a maneuver at the same time, or that only one twin gain the benefits from a maneuver ? When Trying to determine how a class functions with dvati, you have to keep in mind that they share a soul, but not a mind...though magic sometimes treats their minds as the same because they are linked. Ill try and post my house rules for Dvati and Tome of Magic, Tome of Battle, and Incarnum as soon as i can.
kadeity 01-15-07, 02:10 PM	Ok... TOME OF BATTLE Dvati Share Maneuvers per encounter, and the manuever only effects one of the twins BUT one Dvati could use the Maneuver, and the other could recover the maneuver, putting it back in the manuevers per encounter pool. Dvati Crusaders seem like a really really really really bad idea. Steely resolve will KILL your dvati, quickly.Youll BOTH take that damage that was prevented with steely resolve.... which would SUCK. Dvati Swordsages have a lot of very good abilities, and even though they share Maneuvers, they have the most, and access to the most maneuvers... so your twins can use them more often. Dvati Warblades arent as great as swordsages, and arent as bad for the dvati as Crusaders. All in all a dvati warblade isnt a great choice. TOME OF MAGIC Dvati Binders are actually pretty good. Dvati share a soul, so its only one being making a pact with another being. Both dvati will gain the benifits of the pact, since the vestige is only bound to one soul. In fact binder is the easiest class to adjucate. All of the Pact benifits and penalties apply to both twins. Dvati Shadowcasters Work pretty much exactly like any other spellcaster. In short, they arent good at all. Both Dvati are gonna have to burn an action to cast... and youve got far fewer per days than any other primary casting class. Dvati Truenamers share a Truename, just as they share a soul. Dvati truenamers are fair, but difficult to play. If i had a player interested in playing one, i would probably houserule bonuses to Dvati who speak a truename together.
JiCi 01-15-07, 03:53 PM	TOME OF BATTLE Dvati Share Maneuvers per encounter, and the manuever only effects one of the twins BUT one Dvati could use the Maneuver, and the other could recover the maneuver, putting it back in the manuevers per encounter pool. Dvati Crusaders seem like a really really really really bad idea. Steely resolve will KILL your dvati, quickly.Youll BOTH take that damage that was prevented with steely resolve.... which would SUCK. Dvati Swordsages have a lot of very good abilities, and even though they share Maneuvers, they have the most, and access to the most maneuvers... so your twins can use them more often. Dvati Warblades arent as great as swordsages, and arent as bad for the dvati as Crusaders. All in all a dvati warblade isnt a great choice.Hmmm... I tend to disagree with this statement. I would tend to rule that both Dvati can use the same maneuver at the same time in the same round, just like each twin can use a full-attack action. They can use two breath weapons simultaneously as dragon shamans, so they would be able to use the same maneuver simultaneously, don't you think ? One more thing that need to be known: what type of creature are the Dvati ? Humanoid (dvati), Monstrous Humanoid, Aberration, Outsider (native) ?
kadeity 01-15-07, 06:00 PM	Hmmm... I tend to disagree with this statement. I would tend to rule that both Dvati can use the same maneuver at the same time in the same round, just like each twin can use a full-attack action. They can use two breath weapons simultaneously as dragon shamans, so they would be able to use the same maneuver simultaneously, don't you think ? One more thing that need to be known: what type of creature are the Dvati ? Humanoid (dvati), Monstrous Humanoid, Aberration, Outsider (native) ? If you recall, i stated that weather Dvati can use their breath weapons individually or must do so together is something that i leave up to your DM... mostly because it has an amount of time before you can use it again. (1d4 rounds or so depending on your feats.) As for Maneuvers, sure Dvati can use manuevers at the same time, if they are different maneuvers, and they would be expending more of their maneuvers per encounter to do so. In my campaign,Maneuvers only apply to one Dvati at a time, but Dvati can use their Spell conductor ability to "hand off" Boosts or Stances. We've also Houseruled that some other "Spell-like" effects can be handed of using this ability. And for your last question, By the rules, Dvati are Humanoids. (though they do seem like abberations, especially because of their strange mindset.)
kadeity 01-15-07, 06:51 PM	Since they are Found in the Dragon Compendium, i thought maybe i could cover Dvati characters that play the classes aslo found in the Dragon Compendium. DRAGON COMPENDIUM Dvati Battle Dancers are pretty good actually, just as are Dvati Monks. They have a speed bonus and Charisma to AC, as well as unarmed damage. Dvati Death Masters are just as bad as a Dvati of any other pure primary spellcasting class, and the control of an undead minion, as well as summoning powers, only complicates the play of multiple characters. Dvati Jesters arent much of a stretch from Dvati Bards, and in fact the classes work in a very similar manner. Pretty much youll have some mild-spellcasting, which isnt so great for dvati, and youll be insulting your enemies all day...Which im not sure if you could combine with EchoAttack, but i think that it should be able to be. Dvati Montebanks are not so great, since your infernal patron abilities will share uses per day, and run out twice as fast. This class can still be fun if you take full advantage of the Deceptive strike in conjunction with the gaze attack. Its also a nifty way to deal extra damage to things immune to criticals. Dvati Savants are odd. You may as well not be able to cast Arcane or Diveine spells at all, since you ahve So few, and it takes so mcuh to cast them. However, you do get skill assistance, and a slow progression of sneak attack damage. I wouldnt take this class, but its not the worst choice. Dvati Sha'ir are horrible, as are most all Dvati Spellcasters... but i think if your reading this youve read far enough to know that. Dvati Urban Druids arent AWFUL, but they certainly arent good. The class does offer the rare chance for a dvati to not LOOK LIKE a dvati... and actually look like someone else. You also get the animated object companion, which even though its another pc you have to control... its fun. Alot of fun. As for spellcasting, you know the drill. MINIATURES HANDBOOK Dvati Favored Souls, Healers& Warmages are bad. because they are casters. Play them if your brave but i doubt youll live very long. Dvati Marshals are actually pretty good... and thats even with the marshal being a low power class. The real advantage comes from both Dvati radiating those auras. DRAGON MAGIC Dvati Dragonfire Adepts and how they work is largely dependant on how your DM decides their breath weapon works. They have pretty low BAB, and can use some pretty decent invocations, but the breath weapon is the class's main offensive power. and the dm will make or break it. EBERRON. Dvati Artificers are fair, but why a Dvati would be in Ebberon is a tough thing to explain. You likely have to both focus to use any infusions, BUT you can BOTH work on the magic items, which i would rule reduces the time somehow. You also have more slots for magic items... whcih is a big deal. You usually cant afford any good gear, since you have a normal character wealth for one character, but need twice as much gear. Playing an Artificer solves this problem...since you can just plain HAVE MORE STUFF. Also, Dvati cant usually cast spells much, since they both have to invest the actions to do so... but An artificer can craft spell completion items such as wands and scrolls, making a dvati caster more viable. Also, POTIONS are pretty much the only way you can have a Dvati healer... so look into it. Dvati and Variants The one thing that can make or break dvati, is variants. The THUG variant class from Unearthed Arcana has all the benifits of a Dvati rogue, plus more Hp. The Druidic Avenger Variant from Unearthed Arcana is really good as it allows you to gain rage and play a druid. I already mentioned the Shapeshift Variant for druids, but i also forgot to mention the Restoration variant.(both from PHB2) It lets you trade summon natures ally for an ability that lets you sac a spell to make an aura of fast healing equal to the spells level. THIS IS GOOD. Now though the fast healing auras likely dont stack, since they are from the same source, being able to grant fast healing in TWICE the area as before, is really good, and makes the BEST Dvati Healer you have seen so far. The phb2 Berserker Strength Variant for the Barbarian is particularly good for dvati since it activates based on your hit point total, which Dvati naturally ahve fewer of... though the dm could easily argue it doesnt activate based on one twins hp, but the sum of both twin hp instead. The phb2 Descisive Strike Variant for the monk is a pretty decent ability, and how you feel about it hinges heavily on how you feel about flurry of blows. The phb2 Disruptive Attack Variant for the Rogue is pretty good, since it means that one Dvati can sacrifice dealing sneak attack damage to lower the targets ac against the other Dvati's attack. Definetly getting Some damage is alot better than Maybe getting alot. Right now i dont have a copy of Magic of Incarnum on hand... but i WILL cover it soon.
sooperspook 01-15-07, 07:17 PM	Wow. From those rules, it seems they bent the Dvati over, had their way with them and now the poor, broken things are lying in a corner sobbing. Something to consider, a Dvati is subject to twice the number of attacks per round, has half the hit points and only has half the normal treasures worth of protection. Further, if the Dvati is subject to an area effect spell, they must roll saves twice, and suffer the damage twice. (in addition to having half the hitpoints and half the protection). Why isn't this race extinct? is there anyway to express to WotC just how crappy they made this race?
Manyfist 01-15-07, 08:02 PM	Personally I like the flavor of the Dvati. Yet the mechanics suck ass. Sooperspook is right, why aren't the Dvati extinct? I would house rule the following: - Allow the other twin a second save against anything the twin that failed a save. Should the second twin save, they both save. - Share the same Intuitive Roll, yet have two turns per round. - For a dvati to cast a spell one twin must focus on it, and supply actual components. However the twin that casting the spell may not move, instead gives its move action to the other twin. The second twin may not attack except if the first twin transfer the spell to the 2nd twin. - If you buff one body, the other one gains the same buffs. would this justify the LA:+1?
kadeity 01-15-07, 11:24 PM	Wow. From those rules, it seems they bent the Dvati over, had their way with them and now the poor, broken things are lying in a corner sobbing. Something to consider, a Dvati is subject to twice the number of attacks per round, has half the hit points and only has half the normal treasures worth of protection. Further, if the Dvati is subject to an area effect spell, they must roll saves twice, and suffer the damage twice. (in addition to having half the hitpoints and half the protection). Why isn't this race extinct? is there anyway to express to WotC just how crappy they made this race? Dragon Magazine made Dvati in issue 271, then updated them in the dragon compendium. Theres alot of confusion about how they work, andthe one Associate editor who was answering questions about them, but knew nothing about them only made it worse. Well, the spellcasting rules are the main balancing factor. The Dvati do have ALOT of disadvantages you mentioned... and the argument could be made that the +1 isnt necessary. In fact, if it werent for the advantages found in always having a flanking buddy, i would say the dvati would need MORE to be a good race. Personally I like the flavor of the Dvati. Yet the mechanics suck ass. Sooperspook is right, why aren't the Dvati extinct? I would house rule the following: - Allow the other twin a second save against anything the twin that failed a save. Should the second twin save, they both save. - Share the same Intuitive Roll, yet have two turns per round. - For a dvati to cast a spell one twin must focus on it, and supply actual components. However the twin that casting the spell may not move, instead gives its move action to the other twin. The second twin may not attack except if the first twin transfer the spell to the 2nd twin. - If you buff one body, the other one gains the same buffs. would this justify the LA:+1? Actually, the first mechanics change you suggested is the only origional one. The other are sortof already there. -Allowing the second twin to make saves when the first fails is nto only overpowered, but what when they both have to REF against a fireball, Both fail, then Both make the saves for the opposite twin? This mechanic wouldnt work. -Dvati already share the same initiative. they both recieve actions, but act on the same initiative. -the idea of a dvati being able to give any of its actions to the other twin is mega broken. I dont really have a problem with the spellcasting rules as they are, even if they arent the best. -the spell conductor ability lets one twin hand off buffs and their remaining duration to the twin... and some mind effecting buffs already effect both. Dvati mechanics arent so bad once you get used to them. Sure Dvati are squishies, and arent really able to be spellcasters, but even if they COULD cast well, their reduced hp would make casters a bad choice anyway. Tanking isnt a great option either.... but luckily Dvati make EXCELLENT rogues. A set of Dvati Rogues(lvl 5) can consistantly deal +3d6 damage each from sneak attack, every round. They can do this because they BOTH attack the same target, being sure to ALWAYS flank the target. Unfortunately, the dvati will have to split their hp. Average hp rolls of a d6 hd give you 14-15hp at lvl five. Lets say your con is 12. Your twins have half the hp from their hit die (7 each) and both recieve their con mod every level (5+7=12 hp each) The dvati get +3 when they flank, unlike the usual +2. EVEN THOUGH they are coughing up alot of sneak attack damage, they are still leaps and bounds behind in hp compared to an average rogue. (nearly 20hp.) the only way to counter this is a Higher con stat, meaning you just added a racial dependancy on a stat to the stats your class needs. Since the only core CON dependant class is Barbarian, you should probably play it instead of the Rogue if your wanting to stay alive. All in all, Dvati would benifit greatly from a few house rules... and the first one should be that Only one of your party members can play a set of Dvati. The last thing that you want is a party of Eight Dvati...and lets hope none of them want animal companions.
Manyfist 01-16-07, 12:35 AM	Scrap the giving actions between the twins. You could also limit the re rolls 1/day, so it wouldn't be too game breaking. Well suppose some one does want to make a Dvanti Spellcaster, eliminating the "Both must focus on the spell" thing is limiting players choices. Hell I think a feat out there that allows you to cast twice if you have more than two heads. So get that feat, you'll be blasting twice. I would remove the "Both Twins must stay still to work". Then again I like Psionic classes.
sooperspook 01-16-07, 12:53 AM	I still don't see why Dvati don't have two sets of actions per round. Its exactly the same as playing two different characters. With half the hit points and treasure for both. Are their other abilities that powerful that this massive weakness is needed? And the +1 LA? The mental link is strong at low levels less so at mid to high levels. Heck, if I play a psion or wizard I try to link EVERYONE in my group.
Manyfist 01-16-07, 01:43 AM	I still don't see why Dvati don't have two sets of actions per round. Its exactly the same as playing two different characters. With half the hit points and treasure for both. Are their other abilities that powerful that this massive weakness is needed? And the +1 LA? The mental link is strong at low levels less so at mid to high levels. Heck, if I play a psion or wizard I try to link EVERYONE in my group. They should have two actions per round, if they're given LA:+1. I can imagine this now, each are some distance away from each other, both firing off spells at two different targets. I would definitely allow taking two actions v. the down side of having Half HP, Vulnerability to Mindaffecting stuff, double the need of armor, yet half the treasure. I say all those weaknesses and LA:+1 for separate actions, and a minor flank bonus. Imagine a Psion (Telepath)/Thrallherder... and their Thralls are also Dvanti. So 4x2=8 Dvanti... that has to be scary if they wear makeup and act out like one. The Society Mind is also a good way of connecting your friends with You and your twin. Does it say they have to be the same gender? I could see a Male and Female Twins.
Eikre 01-16-07, 02:16 AM	Does it say they have to be the same gender? I could see a Male and Female Twins. Which brings up the question, again, that everyone is asking but nobody wants to post: Is it incest or just- *Sniped*
kadeity 01-16-07, 02:54 AM	I still don't see why Dvati don't have two sets of actions per round. Its exactly the same as playing two different characters. With half the hit points and treasure for both. Are their other abilities that powerful that this massive weakness is needed? And the +1 LA? Dvati DO have two sets of actions per round...they just both occur at the same time in the initiative. Anyone who says they DONT is either an idiot, or an idiot listening to another idiot who happens to be an associate editor at Dragon. Dvati do not have to be the same gender. Also, Dvati Twins mate only with another set of Dvati Twins of appropriate gender.
kadeity 01-16-07, 03:15 AM	MAGIC OF INCARNUM Dvati interact with incarnum in a very special way, as they share a soul, but have twice as many chakras as the usual Meldshaper. It is important to realize that Dvati twins share Essentia and the number of soulmelds they may have bound, as well as the number they may have shaped. The only real Advantage to playing a Dvati meldshaper is that you may have each twin have a soulmeld bound to the same chackra on each body, and though each counts against your soulmelds formed and bound, you can both have Throat chakra soulmelds bound, or whatever corresponding chakra you wish. Also, Dvati can use their Spell Conductor ability to hand off the benifits of a soulmeld bound to one twin to the other twin, since the soulmeld is bound to the same soul. One Major advantage is that Meldshaping classes are CON dependant, which which neutralizes the disadvantage of the Dvati Constitution ability dependance. Dvati Incarnates have a low hit die, and a low attack bonus... as well as having a per day ability that your twins must share. However, the Incarnate has the Largest Essentia Pool of the Incarnum classes, and allows your Dvati to have quite a few soulmelds... which is pretty good for them.... im just not sure if it can compensate for the low hit die. However, this is CERTAINLY a better alternative to any of the other caster-like classes. Dvati Soulborn have excellent hit die, and the best attack bonus, which are both good for the Dvati. However several of the Soulborns best abilities are per day abilities, which you will likely exhaust very quickly. The soulborn also do not have as many Meldshaping abilities as the other incarnum classes, meaning while this isnt a poor choice, it isnt a great one either. If you were wanting to play a Dvati Paladin however, this is the best choice for you... especially compared to the horrible alternatives of the Cleric,Crusader and the actual Paladin. Dvati Totemists give you the most flexability of any of the incarnum classes. They have Fair Hit die and a pretty good attack bonus, which is complimented by a pretty decent Essentia pool and a fair number of soulmelds. All in all this is probably the Best incarnum class for Dvati, since it gives some of the feel of a caster, while still having the survivability that the Dvati need. And as an added bonus, like all incarnum classes, it is constitution dependant!
JiCi 01-16-07, 08:07 AM	All in all, Dvati would benifit greatly from a few house rules... and the first one should be that Only one of your party members can play a set of Dvati. The last thing that you want is a party of Eight Dvati...and lets hope none of them want animal companions.:rofl: ...or more if they all decide to pick the Beastmaster PrC from Complete Adventurer. At least they can't get more than one familiar or special mount, although for a special mount, they can always rely on a double chariot to ride and attack. For spellcasters, I could cook up a feat similar to the Multivoice feat from Savage Species. It allows a multiheaded creature, like an ettin, to cast two spells or spell-like abilities simultaneously if both heads make a Concentration check. Failing either check ruins both spells. Dvatis have two *separate* heads so with a little work, that feat could be nice.
JiCi 01-16-07, 10:41 AM	Here are some homebrewed feats for dvatis that should counter some weakesses: Dvati Focused Casting [Monstrous] You’ve learn to concentrate your thoughts on casting a spell when your twin can move on its own will, without disrupting your spell. Prerequisites: Dex 15, Dvati, Concentration 9 ranks, ability to cast arcane or divine spells Benefit: When one twin casts a spell, your other twin can take other actions aside from casting another spell. However, both twins must make a Concentration DC 20 check, if one twin fails its check, both twins lose their actions, and the spell is lost. Normal: When a dvati twin casts a spell, the other twin cannot take any action. Special: A psionic variant can be taken as Dvati Focused Manifesting. Dvati Multicasting [Monstrous] You’ve learn to cast more spells in a round using both of your minds. Prerequisites: Dex 15, Dvati, Concentration 15 ranks, Dvati Focused Casting, ability to cast arcane or divine spells Benefit: As a full-round action, both dvati twins can cast a spell or use a spell-like ability each round. Each spell used in this way must have a casting time of 1 standard action of less. Using this feat provokes an attack of opportunity. If either twin’s concentration is interrupted during the simultaneous casting or spell-like ability use, whether by taking damage or by some other means, a Concentration check for each spell or spell-like ability. Failing either check negates both spells or spell-like abilities. Normal: Only one dvati twin can cast a spell and the other must take no action. Special: You still cannot exceed the limit of one quickened spell per round (assuming you also have the Quicken Spell feat) when using this feat. A psionic variant can be taken as Dvati Pooled Manifesting. Dvati Twin Strike [Monstrous] You’ve learn to coordinate both twins’ attacks so they hit at the same time, dealing greater damage. Prerequisites: BAB +8, Dvati, Weapon Focus (chosen weapon), Improved Initiative Benefit: As a full-round action, if both twins are adjacent to each other and threaten the same opponent or if both twins are flanking an opponent, you may give up either twin’s full attack action in order to make a single one. You take a -4 penalty to attack rolls, but you deal double damage, as both twins strike simultaneously the same target. You must both be using the same weapon in which you have Weapon Focus. Critical hits are resumed normally, thus multiplying the resulting damage. Other precision-based damage, such as sneak attack or a ranger’s favored enemy bonus, are only applied once per attack, if the conditions are met. Dvati Death Sense [Monstrous] You can let you soul go free when your twin dies. Some dvatis use this so they will not be driven mad or be forced to suicide moments after their twin’s death. Prerequisites: Dvati Benefit: When you twin dies, you feel an immense feeling of emptiness and sorrow, as you learn that you twin is dead. 1 round later, you are entitled to a Fortitude save equal to 10 + half your HD. If you succeed, you still lives but suffer the ability damage from having a dead twin. If you fail, you die instantly. You may choose to voluntary fail the save. Normal: When a twin dies, you may either suffer the ability damage, or go for ritual suicide. So what do you think ?
Manyfist 01-16-07, 12:27 PM	DC 20 is too much, imo. I would do DC 10+Spell level. Also when you mean full round action, does that apply for both twins? Since both twins have separate action and full round actions.
The_Geek 01-16-07, 01:39 PM	A bit has been made over the HP problem ... a decent CON bonus offsets that dramatically. As has been pointed out elsewhere, a D12 averages the same as a D8+2 Dvati _ain't_ gonna be spellcasters (or, at least, primarily)...so a combo of fighting classes is probably the best route to take. Rogue is obviously one of the better ones for this class ... starting out with Barbarian offsets the HP issue (to an extent), and gives full weapon selection. A pair of Brb 1/Rog 4 Dvati with a 14 Con are running ~ 40 HP apiece, 80 total. Not too shabby. With intelligent play, you can take damage on both, so the Con bonus is effectively doubled. (Less risky at higher levels). If you put your stat bonus into Con, it gets even better. A fighter (again, con 14) at 5th is running ~ 42 HP. So, depending on how you play it, that +1 Dvati has (effectively) 38 MORE HP!!! Now throwing something like the feral template on top for the fast healing ... that's just wrong!
kadeity 01-16-07, 02:23 PM	Dvati Death Sense [Monstrous] You can let you soul go free when your twin dies. Some dvatis use this so they will not be driven mad or be forced to suicide moments after their twin’s death. Prerequisites: Dvati Benefit: When you twin dies, you feel an immense feeling of emptiness and sorrow, as you learn that you twin is dead. 1 round later, you are entitled to a Fortitude save equal to 10 + half your HD. If you succeed, you still lives but suffer the ability damage from having a dead twin. If you fail, you die instantly. You may choose to voluntary fail the save. Normal: When a twin dies, you may either suffer the ability damage, or go for ritual suicide. Dvati waste away when their other twin dies, slowly losing CHA until they die. This is because they have lost their soul... one Dvati body cant retain the soul of the two dvati. Its impossible for one twin to live on after the other has passed, just as its impossible for any other race to survive without a soul. Other than that, your feats are awesome. A bit has been made over the HP problem ... a decent CON bonus offsets that dramatically.... ....Now throwing something like the feral template on top for the fast healing ... that's just wrong! The real problem with the hp isnt that its low, its that you HAVE to have a decent con bonus to overcome it. Unless you play a Barbarian, or an Incarnum Class, your adding Another stat which your character is dependant on, and thats a big deal. The feral template... that would be rather interesting... but since we dont really know the Dvati's Origins as a race, it would be hard to explain why a set has become "feral " :p then again if your just optimizing and dont really care about rp or background, then thats awesome. Another way to get fast healing is the Restoration variant, but im not ENTIRELY sure if two dvati standing in each others aura would count, since its technically one character. But if your dm allowed it, that would be nice.
JiCi 01-16-07, 02:27 PM	Well, that feat allows a dvati twin to die instantly when the other twin is slain, it doesn't have to wait to kill itself. Between dying short after and dying 3 weeks later, the former choice would be the best choice.
kadeity 01-16-07, 02:59 PM	ah. i see, i must have misread. i thought it was to allow one twin to live after the other passed.
kadeity 01-16-07, 06:43 PM	As i stated before, most of my questions about dvati have nothing to do with rules adjucation. I wonder about thier culture, and especially their origins. What we know is that they make fair Artificers, Rogues, and Incarnum classes... and that they seem to have a natural disposition toward art, artifice and music. I would especially like to know what Deities, if any, that they favor, and if they have a Divine Creator like Most of the Standard races, i would like to know which one.
JiCi 01-16-07, 07:02 PM	Two-Weapon Fighting Rangers and Fighters are pretty good too. Twice the attacks, twice the damage.
kadeity 01-17-07, 02:10 PM	id like to know how others feel about Dvati who use Psionics... because ive always had trouble making a descision about their compexities. Do they work like normal casters? Do they share a pp pool, or do they both get their own since they have seperate, but linked, minds? Can they acess each others pp pools? Do they maintain one psionic focus or two? ect.
JiCi 01-17-07, 03:10 PM	They would work like spellcasters with a few changes: - There's a single Power Point pool for both twins, and they can use it as they wish, within limits of the "one power per round if the other doesn't take any action". - Psionic Focus affects both twins simultaneously, yet both can maintain it. If either twin is disrupted both of make the Concentration check.
kadeity 01-17-07, 05:44 PM	hrm. Maybe that could work. im not really sure.... im still debating on psionics.
kadeity 01-18-07, 02:07 AM	also do you think this race could be applied as a template?
JiCi 01-18-07, 08:01 AM	also do you think this race could be applied as a template?Hmmm... interesting. Gemini, Twin, Dvati creatures... all are good names. The template should only contain the "twin" quality though, I don't see a twinned dragon using an echo attack.
Zumarai 01-18-07, 10:10 AM	Two-Weapon Fighting Rangers and Fighters are pretty good too. Twice the attacks, twice the damage. They would still get only 1 full round of attacks between them. But they could help each other flank.
kadeity 01-18-07, 03:29 PM	They would still get only 1 full round of attacks between them. NO. THEY BOTH GET FULL SETS OF ACTIONS. some random editor who had nothing to do with the articles on dvati, or with the races' creation said otherwise, and confused EVERYONE. The ONLY GOOD thing about this race is that they both get FULL TURNS. everythign else is REALLY BAD. The full turns are actually the ONLY thing that makes them good, or worthy of a +1.
Zumarai 01-19-07, 04:48 AM	NO. THEY BOTH GET FULL SETS OF ACTIONS. The ONLY GOOD thing about this race is that they both get FULL TURNS. everythign else is REALLY BAD. The full turns are actually the ONLY thing that makes them good, or worthy of a +1. If you want to house-rule it that way…
Manyfist 01-19-07, 10:29 AM	If you want to house-rule it that way… No. Its RAW. No where does it say they only get a single action, so you have to assume they get double action.
Zumarai 01-19-07, 10:53 AM	No. Its RAW. No where does it say they only get a single action, so you have to assume they get double action. It's been clarified, though. Only one of them per round can perform a standard action. They share a Full Round of actions between them
kadeity 01-19-07, 03:05 PM	Editors are not beyond being incorrect. Especially when they didnt write the article they are "clairifying". if you READ AS WRITTEN, theres much much more support for the two actions school. First, they take their turns onf the same initiative. If the share actions that would be a no brainer. Second, they even go so far as to make it plain that Dvati cant both cast a spell in the same round. They say that Both Dvati must use the actions to cast the spell. This, by what your saying, would mean the Dvati spend a full round action to cast... standing there, doing nothing else. The way your talking, the dvati must do this FOR EVERYTHING. Your saying they Share actions. That each of the twins can only do one action every three seconds. Your saying the Dvati practically move in slow motion. WHAT IM SAYING, is that the random editor who was "trying" to calirify, obviously had no clue what he was talking about, and said things that FLY IN THE FACE of RAW.
kadeity 01-19-07, 03:10 PM	AND ! if only one can move and one can make only one attack, HOW THE CRAP are they EVER gonna flank? Its not like the bad Guys are gonna stand still for them, patiently waiting fro the slow motion twins to get into position. Think about it. The only thing they are good for, is Flanking. They cant even do that if they share a turn of actions. Their spell conductor ability becomes virtually useless, since your using HALF your turn just to hand off the spell. They actually become WORSE spellcasters. Actually, they become WORSE EVERYTHING. It would ACTUALLY be optimal if one twin CARRIED the other twin.... just so they can both take advantage of the movement action. sharing actions is not only not RAW, its STUPID.
JiCi 01-19-07, 03:20 PM	They would still get only 1 full round of attacks between them. But they could help each other flank.No way dude... 2 creatures = 2 full-round actions. it's like splitting yourself in two, both of your halves have a copy of your brain, meaning they think, reason and act like your whole self, but all done times 2. The reason a dvati twin cannot cast a spell while the other attacks is becasue their soul cannot focus on the spell. Attacking a creature is far more easier to do than casting a fireball, and thus both can make a full-attack action at the same target since it does not require much concentration. *casts calm emotion on Kadeity* Ok, you can breathe now.
kadeity 01-19-07, 03:53 PM	*feels strangely calm* I wrote Talon Dunning, the Creator of the Dvati, a long email. Im hoping he can offer Semi-official clarification for those Nay sayers. But seriously. The rules say both dvati have to spend the actions to cast the spell. Meaning one can cast, using a standard action, and one has to stand there, concentrating, also using a standard action. But thats Two standard actions :o there arent two standard actions in a single turn...are there ;)
echoota 01-19-07, 04:08 PM	I just stumbled across this race and was quite exicted to try them out, but not when you start to read these threads and the clarification from the editor. I'm quite puzzled as to why anyone would play this race as described by the editor. Over at Paizo they have a forum about the Compendium and the original author has chimed in there in a general way about the revised race. You can check out those comments here: http://paizo.com/people/TalonDunning I think the most signifigant thing is that when he authored the race his intention was that they were supposed to be twins who where supernaturally bonded to one another and that it was intended that they be played by two players and not just one. To me the whole point of this race, mechanically speaking, would be something akin to those twins in The Matrix Reloaded. They fight as one and their edge is the fact that they are very coordinated, but that really requires independent actions. If all you are getting out of splitting your hit points and LA+1 is a minor bonus in flanking and sub-optimal spell casting transference then it's all a waste of ink.
kadeity 01-19-07, 04:19 PM	To me the whole point of this race, mechanically speaking, would be something akin to those twins in The Matrix Reloaded. They fight as one and their edge is the fact that they are very coordinated, but that really requires independent actions. If all you are getting out of splitting your hit points and LA+1 is a minor bonus in flanking and sub-optimal spell casting transference then it's all a waste of ink. exactly! Theres nothing you can do with the +1 dvati who have both got sets of actions that you cant do, and do better, with a cohort. theres nothign broken about a constant flanking buddy. rangers get that as a class ability. theres nothing broken about playing dvati, since at 6th level you can play two ENTIRELY different characters. You CAN cast and attack with a cohort, but not with a dvati. A warlock with a warlock Cohort CAN do that double whammy eldritch blast...and dvat cant. You CAN do the uber rogue doubleteam flank sneak attack with a cohort.... and do it better, since youll both have more Hp than a set of dvati. The cons of playing a dvati, in my opinion, are there to balance out the pro of getting two sets of actions. And im fine with that. But without those two sets of actions, your exactly right Echoota.... its a waste of ink.
kaionon 01-19-07, 04:36 PM	I have not seen the full listing of the Dvati stats so i'm not entirely sure what they are by RAW (I don't have the dragon conpendium, but it seems like a good book to pick up) But it seems to me they don't need the level adjust as they are, since the allmost complete lack of spellcasting ability for them makes them useless in that area. Perhaps the easyest way for them to earn the level adjust set on them is that even though they share spells per day still they can cast two spells in the same round, but have to take a full round action each to do so at once. (1 full round each for a standard action spell, 2 full-rounds each for full-round casting spells, double normal casting time each for longer casting spells.) If the casting times for the spells are diffrent, then the time to cast the spells is equal to the longest casting time between the two spells, as I outlined in the brackets. But it would NOT require the second twin to use their actions if only one twin is casting a spell in a round. So if one wanted to use magic missle or another spell, the second would still be able to attack without consequence. Not sure how much my oppinion maters, but there it is.
The_Fan 01-19-07, 04:36 PM	I ruled for martial maneuvers that the dvati cannot refresh maneuvers in the same turn one of them uses a maneuver, based upon the warblade's description, which specifically says you cannot use a maneuver in the same turn you refresh. I do let swordsages refresh two maneuvers in a round this way though, and let them use multiple maneuvers at once.
JiCi 01-19-07, 04:52 PM	I ruled for martial maneuvers that the dvati cannot refresh maneuvers in the same turn one of them uses a maneuver, based upon the warblade's description, which specifically says you cannot use a maneuver in the same turn you refresh. I do let swordsages refresh two maneuvers in a round this way though, and let them use multiple maneuvers at once.That might not be necessary to put that as a house rule, because it fits perfectly as a standard one, and a nice one too. The warblade can't use a maneuver after recovering it, even if it is a swift action to do so, and since swordsages take a full-round action to recover, they can't use a maneuver either. I say that both must take a swift or full-round action to recover maneuvers, and I'm still holding my share that every maneuver used applies to BOTH twins, regardless of if it's a strike, boost, stance or counter. So they would use the same maneuver twice... big deal... an attack's an attack. Period. Same mind, same soul, same tactics.
Radijs 01-19-07, 05:02 PM	That could be painful. Two searing charges will really amp up the damage. (for example) I would say that they could share boosts but strikes are used and resolved separately.
The_Fan 01-19-07, 05:28 PM	That could be painful. Two searing charges will really amp up the damage. (for example) I would say that they could share boosts but strikes are used and resolved separately. That was kinda an ad-hoc ruling since that has yet to come up yet (though I intend to have some dvati swordsage henchmen in an upcoming game, so I'd better figure it out). Your ruling makes sense though, so I will use it. I'll also say that both have to be in the same stance.
kadeity 01-19-07, 07:17 PM	That could be painful. Two searing charges will really amp up the damage. (for example) I would say that they could share boosts but strikes are used and resolved separately. Keep in mind that Two Dvati Swordsages are No more dangerous than A Swordsage and his Leadershiped Swordsage Cohort. Strikes seem ,intuitively, to not be something they could share, since its something you do and feels more like a "special technique" sort of thing. I also dont See much of a difference in sharing and not sharing stances & boosts, since they share a character sheet. Obviously the effects of them both being in the same stance Dont stack, because they are from the same source. And Boosts dont stack for the same reason. The real question is, should they both have to maintain the stance to recieve the effects. My opinion, now that ive thought about it more, is yes.
kadeity 01-19-07, 07:24 PM	HOORAY! the creator of the Dvati replied to my Email :) On Jan 19, 2007, at 3:49 PM, David Bass wrote: Hello Talon. After a bit of research i appears you are the creator of the Dvati Race. Im sure you Know they have been updated for 3.5 in the Dragon Compendium I, a i saw your posts in the forums there. Yes, indeed, much to my surprise. The book had been out, like 6 months before I found out. It was quite flattering to know that my little contest entry was chosen to be updated out of thirty or so years of Dragon material. What im writing you about is the confusion Surrounding the Race's 3.5 rules. Well, I'll do what I can, but I should inform you that I had nothing to do whatsoever with their conversion to 3.5, nor am I overly familiar with their rules. The guys at Paizo changed them quite a bit from my original intentions. Ive been Runing Dvati as a standard race in my campaign for a while now, and was happy with their Read as Written Rules. Well, I'm glad to hear it. I love that people like them. They were a fun race to create. i discuss them EXTENSIVELY in this Thread on the Wizards of the Coast site. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=11181006#post11181006 I haven't seen that thread. I'll have to give it a look. As written this is what the rules say about Dvati. Dvati Cons: +1 LA logical. Split Hit die hp, are CON dependant. Yeah, I thought this makes them almost unplayable. They're really quite fragile. If one dies both die.(the second from ability damage they take daily) That's as I designed them. They are literally two beings sharing one soul. One can't exist without the other (although I had envisioned that, occasionally, one does survive, but only as a shadowed husk of a creature). Major Spell-casting Restrictions. (such as sharing actions to cast, sharing spell per day pool) That made sense to me. Vulnrability to Mind-altering effects (one effect effects both) This is in keeping with my design. Share ability loss, and Negative levels Same here. Twice as much Equipment, with half the character wealth. They share everything, so that makes sense. Dvati Pros Two sets of actions Act on the same initiative (so could possibly both get Sneak attacks.) Flanking benifits (+3 if your flanking with your twin, and thy make excellnt rogues) Spell conductor (as a standard action a dvati can pass an enchantmet to the other twin) Echo attack (twins ay spak at the same time when flanking fr additional effects) Darkvision These are all as I designed or pretty close. The echo attack thing was my idea. Now in May of 2006 Mike McArtor (Associate Editor at Dragon Magazine) answered a letter where he said that Dvati SHARE actions. (That between the two of them they ahre a standard and movement action) First of all, there is far more evidence in the article that they DO NOT share actions than there is that they dont. For example, if they share a turn of actions, why specify that they act on the same initiative? If they share a turn of actions, Then its impossible for both to spend the standard action to cast spells, as it specifies in the rules that they DO. In ddition if they share a turn of actions, then this removes the one good benefit that he Dvati had, making them a very sub-optimal choice. If one dvati is limited to one action, then by gamerules, they are literally moving half as fast as normal characters, only moving 3 secnds out of the 6 second round. His justificaton for this is that "It's easiest to think of a dvati character as a single character who just happens to have two bodies. The bodies either work together to do the same task, or one body does something and other just watches." Dvati may share a soul, but they are not the "same person". If Dvati dont both recieve individual actions, then They have NO REASON to be +1. If they hare actions they would literally be better off if one twin carried the other on their back, just so they could share a movement action. Dvati aren EASY to adjucate, but i think that this is only worsened by the lack of attention Paizo is giving the issue, an that they let an associate editor (who had no real idea what the race was) answer the questions of the very confused players. The article wasn easy to interpret, as you have to infer what is being said. But Dvat sharing actions IS NOT what the article implies, and would literally contradict several things in he article. Well, I can't say what the d20 authors were thinking, but I can say, as a DM, what *I* would do: I'd let each twin have a full set of actions. I'll be the first to admit, while conceptually cool, the Dvati have never been an easy race to implement rules-wise, even in 2nd Ed. As I indicated in some of my posts to the Paizo boards, it was my intention, when I created them, that the individual twins of a Dvati set be treated as two separate, but linked, characters, each with their own full set of actions and abilities. I had them go on the same initiative, but other than that, they were separate. As such, I often cautioned that DM's be careful when allowing Dvati PCs into their games, as they're effectively allowing a player to play two characters. I also recommended that the twins be separated between two players. But that was all for 2nd ed. I think Paizo's choice to make them, "a single character in two bodies" is a good one. It is actually more in keeping with the theme of the one-in-two than was my original version. Obviously, though, it's easier said than done. In the end, I think it's up to YOU as the GM to make them work the way YOU think is best. If Paizo has made their ultimate decision, then the die is cast and that's that. However, as the DM, you have the right to fully ignore their "official" canon and run it the way YOU want to. Do i agree with you? Probably. What you say makes sense. But what I think doesn't matter. This is a d20 thing and the only thing about the Dvati I can claim to be an expert on is their ecology (and, perhaps, the 2nd ed. rules that I submitted to Dragon way back when). So im petitioning you for help. Several fans of the race are pretty confused about what the rules actually say. Many see Mike McArtor's editorial and give up on playing the race. Then I say they're too hide-bound and obsessed with what's "canon" and what's not (and that's saying a lot coming from me... I'm fairly obsessed with canon in a lot of ways). The truth is, everyone sees the rules a little differently and a LOT of the rules in D&D are confusing, unrealistic and, quite frankly, downright stupid, and while D&D3.5 is nowhere near as bad as 2nd Ed. was in this, every DM runs his game a little differently. Even in my own group, there's little quirks and changes that only apply to one DM or another. Some of us use critical fumbles on any roll of a one. Some don't. Some only apply them to hit-rolls but never to skills or saves. And we all have different ideas of what a critical fumble does. WotC has made its official ruling on the subject, which we've all read and either chosen to follow or ignore. So, in the end, it doesn't really matter what the official ruling is or whether or not you're able to convince everyone on the boards that you're right. The nature of the boards is such that no matter how well you've presented your case, someone will always stubbornly disagree. If you feel that you've stated your case well and with good grace, then that's all you can do. Go about running your game how you think is best and let others do the same. That's my advice. im hoping that you can either speak to Dragon, I have no sway at Dragon or Paizo. The Dvati exist because I entered a create-a-monster contest sometime around 1999 and won honorable mention (not even first or second place, just honorable mention). That was the last I heard of them before coming across discussions of the new d20 version on the Paizo boards. I can't even claim Dragon as a client. I've never even submitted work to them. They literally have no idea who I am and I doubt they care what i think. or that you can speak to the fan community, and let them know how you meant the race to be played. (of course im assuming you see the problems foun in Dvati sharing a turn. If you dont....then all hope is lost.) Well, I doubt that will help, since I intended for them to be played as separate characters, but I'll check out the thread and see if I think I can help. I tend to be weary of fan-forums like these, though. I tend to think they do little but breed malcontent. Thank you For your time. David Bass a.k.a.(in the forums) Kadeity All this being said, I PERSONALLY would like to thank you for, apparently, championing my creations with such fervor. As an illustrator, I'm used to seeing my work in publication, but the Dvati represent the only thing I've ever created on that level that made it to print (well, with the exception of the starship designs published the WEG Star Wars book, Hives of Scum and Villainy, for which I didn't get credit... It's a long story). The fact that it's creating this level of discussion makes me very happy. It means that people like my work enough to put it to practical use and debate how to best do that. if you didn't care, you wouldn't argue about it. So, thanks. Talon ________________________________________ ______________ Another email brought to you by... Talon Dunning Illustration & Graphic Design http://www.talonart.com And remember... My dog can lick anyone. So the Dvati's Creator agrees with me,that the dvati should get two sets of actions, However he does make a good point. Even if they are OBVIOUSLY WRONG, a PAIZO/Dragon representative has made their descision. He also points out that he had inteded the Dvati to be 2 linked characters, with two players. My opinon remains that RAW says they get two sets of actions.
JiCi 01-19-07, 07:30 PM	Hmmm... the way I see it is that the race itself has the ability, aka racial trait, to make 2 full-round actions, aka the twin ability, which are closely linked together. Don't forget that a Dvati PC actually has a single character sheet. So when you use Avalanche of Blades for example, the united mind of the Dvati "orders" both twins to use it simultaneously. A maneuver affects a standard or full-round action, so if you are to take the equivalent of 2 full-round actions when you could only get one, you could have both twins uses the same maneuver at the same time. Consider a maneuver as a feat, if both twins can use Power attack in the same round, so can they use a maneuver together. Althought, I would rule that when they must make a skill check, and that one of them misses it, the maneuver is ruined. Failure would indicate a miscoordination between the mind and the bodies. EDIT: Dude, talk about being lucky, well we can't really argue with DA creator, can't we... Well, it's official: dvatis are twice the pain of the butt when you get sandwiched between 2 full-attack actions.
kadeity 01-19-07, 07:41 PM	Hmmm... the way I see it is that the race itself has the ability, aka racial trait, to make 2 full-round actions, aka the twin ability, which are closely linked together. Exactly. Don't forget that a Dvati PC actually has a single character sheet. So when you use Avalanche of Blades for example, the united mind of the Dvati "orders" both twins to use it simultaneously. A maneuver affects a standard or full-round action, so if you are to take the equivalent of 2 full-round actions when you could only get one, you could have both twins uses the same maneuver at the same time. Thats a good point. Some Strikes might have to be used together... Consider a maneuver as a feat, if both twins can use Power attack in the same round, so can they use a maneuver together. Althought, I would rule that when they must make a skill check, and that one of them misses it, the maneuver is ruined. Failure would indicate a miscoordination between the mind and the bodies. I dont know if id make them both fail... but i might. Im not sure. It seems like a decent house rule. You could go a step further and say they must use strikes against the same target, with the same attack roll... or even say they can different targets, but use the same attack roll. that wouldnt be a far stretch, when comapred to the Psionic Multishot feat that lets you fire multiple arrows at multiple targets, with the same attack roll. EDIT: Dude, talk about being lucky, well we can't really argue with DA creator, can't we... Well, it's official: dvatis are twice the pain of the butt when you get sandwiched between 2 full-attack actions. yeah...but how often is that gonna happen. I mean, most guys are gonna move away when they realize they are being surrounded.... and most dvati are gonna be scared to actually use that flanking benifit because they both have super tiny HP totals. And yes. Im amazed that Talon even responded, let alone as fast as he did.
JiCi 01-23-07, 09:11 AM	Anything else we can add ? I would be curious to know how templates interact with this race.
Everwho 01-29-07, 01:14 AM	Hi folks. I'm Talon, the guy that invented the original dvati back in 1999. Between the link to my posts on the Paizo boards, and the fully quoted email posted to this thread, I find that most of what I can say about this particular topic has already been presented. That said, I thought I'd at least throw in some additional pocket-change and see if I couldn't rattle things up a little more. First off, I'd like to commend the authors of the Dragon Compendium for doing an excellent job not only with the dvati conversion, but with the entire book. It's become of of my favorite 3.5 supplements and I sincerely hope there are more volumes to come. Now on to the topic at-hand... Regarding the controversy of dvati actions, it is my opinion that the article in the Compendium is totally lacking in the area. It just doesn't really say one way or the other how many actions they get. Now, an official editor from Dragon has made a ruling, so, in all fairness, we'll call that ruling canon. However, I do agree that it's not a great ruling and it does, coupled with the race's inherent fragility, make them extremely undesireable as a PC race. What's really at the heart of the matter here, though, is their game-balance, which, as I've said, is the #1 problem I've struggled with since the race's inception back in the mid-90's. The problem is simple and obvious: playing two characters while everyone else only gets one, is unfair. Even followers and cohorts are more easily acceptable as they're really more player-controlled NPCs than two PCs of equal standing. As I've already stated, my solution, back in the day, was to break the pair up between two players. Paizo's solution, as ambitious as it was creative, was to treat them like a single character with two bodies. I love this idea. I fully support this idea. This is a good idea. It is, however, a difficult idea to fully realize in a balanced game. There are definite cons to allowing each half of a dvati set to get their own full action, the formost of which is that it gives the characters' player twice the number of actions as the rest of the group, which is, on the surface, very unfair and it's quite understandable to see DM's and players alike crying shinanagins at the idea. However, I'm of the opinion that just about any level of twinkery can be made acceptable with the right amount of balance. Usually this balance comes in the form of level-adjustments. In this case, a bit more is thrown in, for good measure: divided hit-dice. This, my good fellows, is one HELL of a balance. Let's really consider this a moment. Picture, if you will, a high-level human fighter. Considering hit-dice alone, a 15th-level fighter has an average of 80 hit-points (assuming 10 for level one and five for every level after that... also assuming my math isn't wrong, as math and I are mortal enemies and I do often get it wrong). A single dvati has HALF that, or 40 hit-points. A 15th level fighter with only 40 hit-points will not last very long. One good fireball from a CR-appropriate caster will probably do it. This is a HUGE hurtle and a very, very significant factor, a factor, I think, well balances the twinkery of gaining two full actions per round. It should be noted, however, that I do agree with Paizo's assement of spellcasting davti, which should continue to be considered an exception to the twinned-full-action rule. Having a set of dvati wizards casting TWO maximized fireballs at you is total insanity, no matter how fragile they may be. So it's my opinion that they should receive two full actions, except in the case of spellcasting. In-game, this can be explained by saying that spellcasting is a very complex and concentration-intensive activity. It's easy for us to say, "I cast magic-missle at the darkness," and not appreciate what our characters actually have to go through to make that spell happen. Because the dvati are so closely linked, it can easily be said that they lack the ability to sufficiently conentrate, on an individual basis, to make spellcasting possible. As with most complex activities, they must share spellscasting actions between them in order to make them work. Stabbing a dude in the face... That they can do on their own. It's also worth noting that the Compedium article is flat out wrong in one specific spot. It says, "Dvati share one mind." This simply isn't true as I designed them, at least, not as a general statement. Dvati are separate entities that share a powerful spiritual and emotional connection; the practical application, if you will, of the connection we often imagine real-life twins sharing. It's fine to say that the dvati share spell effects and saves and whatnot, but we must be careful of considering them "one mind." They weren't designed to be that way. They're not Borg or the Stepford Cuckoos (for you X-Men readers). They aren't supposed to share a hive-mind. They are linked, but separate; like two pieces of a puzzle. You need both to the see the whole picture, but they are, still, unique beings unto themselves. They're twins, not clones, with all that that entails... Plus a little extra. :-) Now, as I've said, I am NOT the authority on the 3.5 version of this race. For that, it's in Paizo we trust. All I can say is that this is how I, as a dungeon-master myself, would run this race in my game, and the requirements under which I would consider playing them under another DM. This is not meant, by any means, to be the definitive word on the matter. For that, look only as far as your own sensebilities and those of your DM. Do what is right for YOUR game, leave others to do the same, and all should enjoy themselves. Thanks all for giving me and my dvati your attention. As a small reward for reading this absurdly long post, here's a link to the full, uncut article I wrote for the create-a-monster contest in 1999, the short version of which can be found in Dragon Magazine #271. This is the original 2nd edition version of the race, as designed for the Planescape campaign setting, of which I am still a HUGE fan. While much of this just doesn't apply to D&D3.5, you may find the details of their personality and culture helpful roleplaying tips. Enjoy! http://www.talonart.com/Dvati-2ndEd.pdf Oh and as a PS, I recommend checking out the Twindancer class in KenzerCo's Stealth and Style supplement for Kingdoms of Kalamar. I haven';t actually done the legwork yet, to see how well they'd work together, but one can imagine that a set of dvati twindancers could be really cool. And the art's awesome, too. ;-)
Everwho 01-29-07, 01:19 AM	Anything else we can add ? I would be curious to know how templates interact with this race. My opinion would be (again, not official, just what I'd do) that, ultimately, it would depend on the template, but, generally, what applies to one, applies to both. That being said, whould turning one twin into a vampire automatically turn the other? I dunno. I leave that up to your DM. I know what I would do... It wouldn't be pretty, I'll give you that.
kadeity 01-29-07, 07:44 AM	I would assume that all templates effect both twins, since they do share a character sheet....except for templates are inherited or that represent character death. Inherited Templates Inherited templates can nearly never be applied to dvati, as Dvati only mate with other dvati, and do so in pairs. The typical "dragon polymorphed into my race" route for inherited templates doesnt work with dvati either, since a polymorphing progenitor race would have to have somehow split into two bodies, which the polymorph spell does not allow. A special circumstance for an inherited template would be Dopplegangers, that were very familiar with each other. They could possibly be the only monster, species, or race that could have any chance at bluffing their way as dvati, as they have the telepathic link and the ability to shapechange into a dvati-like appearance. I allowed the Dvati race to be applied as a template to the changeling race once, as a result of this very thing. Aquired Templates Many aquired templates would affect both twins, logically, as they share a character sheet. We can assume from this that since in metagame they share the same stats, and if ones stats change they both change, that ingame the Dvati have very linked bodies. Most templates will affect both. However, remember that they share a soul, so if one dvati dies, they both die. Many aquired templates actually represent the death of the origiona creature, such as undead, and these effect dvati in a specific way. For example, The half-Illithid tmeplate, once applied, effectively kills the base creature... and morphs its body ino a new creature. This would make one twin become a half illithid, and the other twin die, since for all purposes, the illithid-twin died, even though their body remains. As for undead it is generally the same as with the Half Illithid template, except in cases that would cause the SOUL to become undead somehow. For example, the ghost template would likely create one ghost that manifests as two twins, basically changing both twins into a ghost. Templates like zombie or vampire, however, actually kill the base creature, and only the body returns, meaning that the other twin dies. Other If you mention a Specific template, then i might be more likely to offer a more effective answer, but the basic idea is that if the template doesnt kill the base creature, and isnt an inherited template, then the dvati are fine with it.
JiCi 01-29-07, 09:47 AM	My opinion would be (again, not official, just what I'd do) that, ultimately, it would depend on the template, but, generally, what applies to one, applies to both. That being said, whould turning one twin into a vampire automatically turn the other? I dunno. I leave that up to your DM. I know what I would do... It wouldn't be pretty, I'll give you that.He he... don't worry about it. I had just noticed that every class have been covered, except templates, which are often scattered in levels. Last, but not the least, welcome to the boards. It's an honor to speak with an author with such a wild imagination. (one soul with two bodies ? dude, I would have never thought of that) Inherited Templates Inherited templates can nearly never be applied to dvati, as Dvati only mate with other dvati, and do so in pairs. The typical "dragon polymorphed into my race" route for inherited templates doesnt work with dvati either, since a polymorphing progenitor race would have to have somehow split into two bodies, which the polymorph spell does not allow. A special circumstance for an inherited template would be Dopplegangers, that were very familiar with each other. They could possibly be the only monster, species, or race that could have any chance at bluffing their way as dvati, as they have the telepathic link and the ability to shapechange into a dvati-like appearance. I allowed the Dvati race to be applied as a template to the changeling race once, as a result of this very thing.Hmmm... I see a lot of alternative to this issue. - If both twins are bitten by a lycanthrope, then both children would be natural lycanthropes, hence an inherited template (On a side note, it has been "decided" that dvatis are humanoids, so they should be eligible to the lycanthrope template; the Dragon Compendium unwisely forgot to add the creature type in the racial traits) - As I mentionned to Talon above, WotC developpers tend to split templates into class levels these days, thus gaining the template, whether inherited or acquired, at the last level. A few examples include the half-dragon in Races of the Dragon and the five original lycanthropes (bear, boar, rat, tiger & wolf) in a Dragon magazine (a few issue after the whole 3.5 conversion thing). So far, it's the least farfetched idea I got (... like a PC is going to seek a werewolf in order to get bitten.) -Other templates, such as tauric, cannot be applied to dvatis unless near-epic magic is involved, such as an epic spell using the transform seed. If that's the case, then this kind of template is acquired and thus can be inherited through the whole... you know.... breeding process.
JiCi 01-31-07, 01:55 PM	Aquired Templates Many aquired templates would affect both twins, logically, as they share a character sheet. We can assume from this that since in metagame they share the same stats, and if ones stats change they both change, that ingame the Dvati have very linked bodies. Most templates will affect both. However, remember that they share a soul, so if one dvati dies, they both die. Many aquired templates actually represent the death of the origiona creature, such as undead, and these effect dvati in a specific way. For example, The half-Illithid tmeplate, once applied, effectively kills the base creature... and morphs its body ino a new creature. This would make one twin become a half illithid, and the other twin die, since for all purposes, the illithid-twin died, even though their body remains. As for undead it is generally the same as with the Half Illithid template, except in cases that would cause the SOUL to become undead somehow. For example, the ghost template would likely create one ghost that manifests as two twins, basically changing both twins into a ghost. Templates like zombie or vampire, however, actually kill the base creature, and only the body returns, meaning that the other twin dies. Technically speaking, a dvati is truly dead is both twins have died, since the soul continues to live, yet it deteriorates. Undead templates such as zombie, skeleton or vampire, require the absence of a soul to order to be applied. The soul still exists inside the other living twin. As for acquired templates that can be applied to still-living creatures such as lycanthrope, half-illithid or even voidmind (MMIII), I would rule that one twin can have such a template. However, since most of these templates result in capturing the victim, it's likely that the other uninffected twin will kill the other and then suicide itself. That may sound wierd, but hey, such a racial trait (twin) definitely requires more attention. I say we all email WotC in order to have a "Rules of the Game" article related to the dvati.
Everwho 01-31-07, 03:13 PM	Technically speaking, a dvati is truly dead is both twins have died, since the soul continues to live, yet it deteriorates. Undead templates such as zombie, skeleton or vampire, require the absence of a soul to order to be applied. The soul still exists inside the other living twin. OOOO, that's a good point. Interestingly, when I first designed these guys, I had intended to leave the "one soul in two bodies" thing ambiguous, implying that it was part of their mythology, but not, necessarily, a true statement. Stuff like this, however, makes it clear that Paizo was right to come right out with it. As for acquired templates that can be applied to still-living creatures such as lycanthrope, half-illithid or even voidmind (MMIII), I would rule that one twin can have such a template. However, since most of these templates result in capturing the victim, it's likely that the other uninffected twin will kill the other and then suicide itself. Well, it's not canon, but it was my intention that the only race genetically compatable with dvati are humans, and even then it takes a set of human twins to make it work. That eliminates most inherited templates since most of them tend to remove a human's humanity. See my post to Paizo's boards about dvati reproduction (there's a link earlier in this thread). That may sound wierd, but hey, such a racial trait (twin) definitely requires more attention. I say we all email WotC in order to have a "Rules of the Game" article related to the dvati. You mean Paizo. WOtC really didn't have anything to do with the 3.5 conversion of the dvati (that I know of anyway). Actually, I'm hoping to get the time to write an "Ecology of the Dvati" article sometime this year. Who knows? Maybe I'll actually be able to sell it to Dragon. :-)
JiCi 01-31-07, 03:35 PM	You mean Paizo. WOtC really didn't have anything to do with the 3.5 conversion of the dvati (that I know of anyway). Actually, I'm hoping to get the time to write an "Ecology of the Dvati" article sometime this year. Who knows? Maybe I'll actually be able to sell it to Dragon. :-)Huh yeah, that would be Paizo. I wish you good luck if you wish to sell that article to Dragon. If they are unsure about the authors, just refer them to this thread. Kadeity and I will be honor to back you up.
Kohdok 01-31-07, 04:32 PM	http://www.satoshiscorner.com/screencaps/Futakoi_kanji/episode12/img-Futakoi009.png I've actually played in a group with a Dvati Artificer (Who I imagined looked like Kira and Yura, pictured above, and the player actually thought the same). They were able to use a form of wand-loaded spell-gun to get back their two actions per round, casting two spells each round. One would typically load the awesome spell Splinterbolt while the other would use Mass Snake's Swiftness on the party. In character, my character became quite protective of the two, treating them like little sisters. We could also effectively split the party, as our group had seven people, two stable groups of four was no challenge with the awesome cross-classing the members of our group did. The living walkie-talkies kept each group in touch with the other. I had to mention this trait because most of you are talking about combat practicality rather than the RP opportunities that come with playing as two characters (Don't forget "Double your pleasure, double your fun" jokes). Until my character's real sister (Who turned evil according to his bio) slew one of them with a Death Attack. The other then found the dead body and killed herself, despite my character's attempts to stop her. (We were too low a level to get a Ressurection). Needless to say, this combination of events was quite traumatizing to my character, because he knew his sister was guilty (Which made him, the one who raised her, guilty). The nature of the deaths, combined with the intense grief my character felt, triggered a Legacy Weapon in a weapon that the Dvati had enchanted, the first intelligent weapon with two personalities in my group. The sword will eventually gain the ability to cast the above two spells. It'll be interesting when I meet my sister again, because the twins want to kill him and will try to take me over as a result.
kadeity 02-01-07, 07:53 PM	Technically speaking, a dvati is truly dead is both twins have died, since the soul continues to live, yet it deteriorates. Undead templates such as zombie, skeleton or vampire, require the absence of a soul to order to be applied. The soul still exists inside the other living twin. Well you are both right and wrong... for example. Twin A gets bitten by a vampire. Twin A, for all practical purposes, dies. Because Twin A has become undead, and the soul has departed Twin A's Body, Twin B begins to deteriorate and will soon die also. Undeath is somethign that happens to the body After death... so applying an undead template is just like killing your character, and bringing them back as an undead. For Dvati, one twin dies and the other begins to waste away, since one body is not enough to retain the dvati soul. I wasnt saying the other twin immediatley dies...i was just dies eventually... and i would assume that when the other twin dies, the magical connection they share would likely raise the 2nd twin as the same type of undead as the first twin. Realize though, that dvati get almost all of their hp from their CON mods, which undead dont have. So really, dvati undead are Pushovers. As for acquired templates that can be applied to still-living creatures such as lycanthrope, half-illithid or even voidmind (MMIII), I would rule that one twin can have such a template. However, since most of these templates result in capturing the victim, it's likely that the other uninffected twin will kill the other and then suicide itself. I disagree. I would say that likely both twins become Lycanthropes if one does... even if the other doesnt get bitten... because Lycanthropy is a magical disease, and dvati can sahre magical effects. You could say that one twin can prevent becoming a lycanthrope if they NEVER use the Spell conductivity ability again... but i think if they did the disease would seep through. Also, its afflicted lycanthropy and the effects of one twin being forced to change shape would have some effect im sure, since they share mind effecting affects. AND, afflicted lycanthropes do not make true lycanthropes. Look at afflicted lycans like vampire spawn... true vampires make vampire spawn, not the other way around. The same is true of natural lycans and afflicted lycans. Meaning that unless you found a set of natural lycanthrope twins...there arent gonna be any natural lycan dvati. A good Measuring point for if a template kills the base creature or not is "Can the base character be ressurected after the template is applied." In the case of the Voidmind and the Half Illithid... its a good question. By my definition, death is when the soul's connection with the body is severed. Usually this is caused by the body being damaged so much it cant contain the soul, but there are other ways. See if you go the route of "the base creature dies, but the body lives" with the voidmind and the Half illithid, then it likely means the base creature becomes an NPC/Villan. However if you say the Base creatures Soul is trapped within the body, and no longer in control...then this makes for interesting plot, but poor mechanic. HOWEVER in my opinion, since the dvati share mind effecting effects, and have a magic conductivity, then ANY magical or mind altering template, either applies to both or kills one twin. In my campaign i would rule that the application of any template that significantly changes the personality of a character would alter both. Realize, Dvati share an alignment. They share Physical statistics. Its reasonable to assume any template that effects one effects both.
JiCi 02-01-07, 09:04 PM	Hmm... good points you got there. And how about my ideas for acquirering templates with class levels ? Is it a valuable option ?
RogueGypsy47 02-20-07, 03:00 PM	I've been musing on a Dvati (have been for a while now), and while I find this to be an amazing resource, I think I missed the section on magic items. o.o If I read all of that correctly, a dvati could wear a periapt of wisdom, as well as one of health, occupying one amulet slot on each body. How do those bonuses affect the dvati, though? Does the CON bonus of the periapt of health affect both bodies or only the body wearing it? What about the WIS bonus of the periapt of wisdom? It seems like there could be good reasons for the magic to affect both bodies (it is, after all, one soul and character sheet), as well as the reverse (why should an amulet worn on body A make body B any tougher or wiser?). Now, if it were the former reasoning that held out, and you decided to invest in a non-insight CON bonus... Well, I imagine that such could help offset the HP difficulties a little. It's like my Da always says, "Just throw money at the problem!" But, thank you in advance for any help!
Radijs 02-20-07, 04:59 PM	Well you do have an advantage of multiple body slots but its not really that much of a problem. Most magical gear provides an enhancement bonus which doesn't stack with each other. So 2 amulets that both grant +2 to con won't stack but overlap.
RogueGypsy47 02-23-07, 03:47 PM	Ahh.. Re-reading my post, I had meant to say, "non-enhancement bonus to CON", such as a regular Amulet of Health and then, if the DM allows, a more expensive version that is considered a sacred bonus or somesuch.. *nods* But, okay, I think your response gave me an answer. ^_^
Ardenyl_Syn7 02-25-07, 02:34 AM	Hello there all. I've been DM'ing a campaign for a while with a PC who has a Dvati rogue/sorcerer in it, which has been one of the more interesting aspects of my current campaign. In regards to magic items, we had several issues crop up since the Dragon Compendium was basically silent on the issue (much to my intial dismay). However, through several sessions we came up with some good (albiet house-rules) rules to help make up for this: 1. Dvati have seperate bodies and separate item slots. Each one has the full array of available item slots, from weapons and armor to amulets and boots. 2. Items that affect stats, skills, saves, etc., are usable by the twin who wears it, and to that twin only. For example, if one twin has a +2 belt of Strength, only he recieves the bonus, and if the other one is wearing boots of elvenkind, only he gets that bonus. The only exception is: 3. Dvati share the bonuses provided by magic items that affect any purely mental ability (any skill or ability that is Int, Wis, and/or Cha based). For example, if one twin wears a +4 Cloak of Charisma, they both gain the benefit. This does, however, 'lock' that slot for both twins; in the case above, the other twin may not wear a different cloak and gain its benefit since he is already benefiting from his twin's cloak. 4. One sticky point I came across was when the PC mentioned was wearing a +3 cloak of resistance; technically, the only save he gains the resistance bonus to is his Will Save (since Fort and Ref aren't reliant on mental abilities). In this case, I adjucated that the slot wasn't locked for both twins as long as the other twin wore a cloak that didn't impact his mental abilities. I don't presume that this is the best solution, but it's been working in my campaign well up into the high levels, and as long as you avoid giving out weird magic items.
Apostle Of Pain 03-23-07, 01:19 AM	So what do you all think about the "Aura" classes, like the dragon shaman, paladin, or the marshal? I'm unsure if both the bodies would radiate the aura or if just one of them would. Since the animating spirit would be the one radiating the aura? The marshals aura is based on giving orders and thus I would see that one being shared between both bodies as each was able to give commands to their local area. I'm really intrigued by the prospect of a party "leader" team that would expand greatly on the aura features of some classes.
Everwho 03-23-07, 01:45 AM	So what do you all think about the "Aura" classes, like the dragon shaman, paladin, or the marshal? I'm unsure if both the bodies would radiate the aura or if just one of them would. Since the animating spirit would be the one radiating the aura? My guess would be that, since they share the class, they share the aura. I would halve the radius and split it evenly between them. So a 10' radius becomes two 5' radii, etc. Reducing the size of the effect helps balance the fact that you are able to get more mobility from it. A generous DM might allow you to shuffle that around, as well, allowing one twin or the other to have the full radius, should both agree.
and 05-07-07, 04:04 PM	how would a dvati warlock work?
Radijs 05-07-07, 05:31 PM	Very much like a Dvati wizard or sorceror I suppose.
Everwho 05-07-07, 09:47 PM	how would a dvati warlock work? Yeah, I think the idea is that they are, essentially, a single character, so a Dvati Warlock would have one set of invocations that either twin could draw from. It helps to think of them as a single character that can be in two places at once.
and 05-09-07, 02:20 PM	Yeah, I think the idea is that they are, essentially, a single character, so a Dvati Warlock would have one set of invocations that either twin could draw from. It helps to think of them as a single character that can be in two places at once. you gotta spread out a round of actions between the two bodies correct?
Radijs 05-09-07, 02:27 PM	It depends on the actions of the twins. most of the time they will both have a move action and a standard action. However a few actions (such as spellcasting) requires that both twins spend an action to do one thing. IE: a fighter dvati could have each twin make a full attack but a wizard dvati would need both twins to concentrate to cast a single spell.
JiCi 05-10-07, 04:11 PM	Take it like this: what requires more brains ? attacking with a sword or casting a spell ? While one mind can easily "order" its two bodies to make a full-attack action each in a single round, casting a spell (or a spell-like ability) requires all of your head. You just cannot order one twin to slash and the other to cast; your mind cannot do so. The only advantage is that you can easily flank a target with a ray spell. So a dvati warlock could not use 2 eldritch blasts, but you bluff your way out and "sneak" the opponent hard. One more thing, I would rule that dvati twins cannot use supernatural abilities separately in a single round if the DC save is Intelligence-, Wisdom- or Charisma-based, as these come from the one mind, but could use the same abilities if the DC save is Strength-, Dexterity- or Constitution-based, as those come from the bodies. Of course, exceptions can occur, please use your judgement. So half-dragon dvati twins could use their breath weapons (Con-based) each once in the same round if desired. Likewise, if a dvati gets a gaze attack, both twins get it and an opponent could have to save twice if twins stare at it (Cha-based, but more physical and mental).
Radijs 05-13-07, 04:48 PM	IMO supernatural abilities aren't that diffrent from spell likes. They are both magical in nature and would require a kind of mental effort to activate. Gaze attacks are in general one of those "always active" things. IE no action is expended to get the effect. But if the Dvati would use a standard action to force a second save I'd say both halves of the set would need to concentrate.
kadeity 05-15-07, 02:52 PM	the best rule of thumb for "do both dvati have to take the actions to do this" is "do i have to make a concentration check to do this in a stressful situation?" generally i say the dvati have to both focus for spells, spell likes, and supernatural abilities. the key is that they are two minds and bodies that share a soul. becuase of that, they function semi-independently in mundane activity... but anything magical, that requires focusing of their will... and they BOTH have to focus. Two bodies, two minds, one soul, one will.
Kirk99 06-07-07, 03:47 AM	What do people think would be the best non-PHB class to use for dvati? I guess ninja would be deadly?
Radijs 06-07-07, 05:51 AM	Not as deadly as a rogue. A ninja's abilities depend largely on his KI pool. And the Dvati would have to split the pool between them leaving them each with very few uses per day. And since sudden strike doesn't work with flanking well...
Steely_Dan 06-07-07, 06:17 AM	IE: a fighter dvati could have each twin make a full attack but a wizard dvati would need both twins to concentrate to cast a single spell. They would have to spread a full attack between them: "On May 21, 2006, at 2:43 PM, Thomas sørensen wrote: I have some questions about the Dvati from Dragon magazine #271(updated in Dragon compendium vol. 1): And I have some answers. :) Do they share a full-round action together or do they get seperate full-round actions? A dvati's twins share all of their actions. Between the two of them they get one standard action and one move action (although they can both move in the same move action), two move actions, or one full-round action. Such as a dvati fighter could get two full attack actions? No. The dvati twins share a single full-attack action. But they should share the max. character wealth between them, right? Yes. And do a dvati warlock have to focus at the same time when using invocations and eldritch blast or spell-like abilities? Yes. Only one spell-like ability per round between the two of them. It's easiest to think of a dvati character as a single character who just happens to have two bodies. The bodies either work together to do the same task, or one body does something and other just watches. I hope that helps! Mike McArtor Associate Editor Dragon Magazine"
JiCi 06-07-07, 06:34 AM	Do they share a full-round action together or do they get seperate full-round actions? A dvati's twins share all of their actions. Between the two of them they get one standard action and one move action (although they can both move in the same move action), two move actions, or one full-round action. Such as a dvati fighter could get two full attack actions? No. The dvati twins share a single full-attack action.:OMG! What !?! That,s completly absurd, what the use of having two bodies if you can't use them independantly ? No offense, but I prefer Everwho's answer. He's the creator afterall.
Steely_Dan 06-07-07, 06:43 AM	:OMG! What !?! That,s completly absurd, what the use of having two bodies if you can't use them independantly ? No offense, but I prefer Everwho's answer. He's the creator afterall. He said, as it has been updated to 3.5 (which he had nothing to do with), you might want to go with Dragon's official stance. Plus, allowing a LA +1 race to get two full attacks per round is absurdly overpowered.
JiCi 06-07-07, 06:53 AM	which is balanced by the fact that each twin has half the total hp... Sure, I can attack you twice, but I can get killed twice as fast.
Steely_Dan 06-07-07, 07:02 AM	which is balanced by the fact that each twin has half the total hp... Sure, I can attack you twice, but I can get killed twice as fast. While that does help balance them, it is not enough to offset a dual wielding dvati rogue getting 12 attack per round all with sneak attack damage. Or a Power Attacking, Leap Attacking, Shock Troopering dvati barbarian etc.
Radijs 06-07-07, 07:20 AM	What?! I'm with JiCi on this. An extra full attack does a lot of more damage but each twin is a preverbial glass cannon. But without such an advantage you've only got the weaknesses and none of the perks. At the risk of offending Mike McArtor but that ruling has got its head up its own bottom.
Steely_Dan 06-07-07, 07:27 AM	What?! I'm with JiCi on this. An extra full attack does a lot of more damage but each twin is a preverbial glass cannon. But without such an advantage you've only got the weaknesses and none of the perks. At the risk of offending Mike McArtor but that ruling has got its head up its own bottom. You can still flank by yourself. You can still be in two different places on the battlefield at the same time. The tactical benefits more than outweigh the LA and half hp.
JiCi 06-07-07, 07:33 AM	While that does help balance them, it is not enough to offset a dual wielding dvati rogue getting 12 attack per round all with sneak attack damage. Or a Power Attacking, Leap Attacking, Shock Troopering dvati barbarian etc.Take it this way: you're controlling 2 characters with the exact same statistics, except with half the hp, and with a mind link could prove fatal to them, hold person, dominate person, deep slumber, etc... These spells kill two birds in one stone.
Steely_Dan 06-07-07, 07:55 AM	Take it this way: you're controlling 2 characters with the exact same statistics, except with half the hp, and with a mind link could prove fatal to them, hold person, dominate person, deep slumber, etc... These spells kill two birds in one stone. See previous post.
Radijs 06-07-07, 08:27 AM	See previous post. Then I suppose we will agree to disagree. I can add to the argument that you'll be splitting all the wealth between them meaning that their gear will be less effective compared to a single-bodied character. Maybe an acid test is needed.
Steely_Dan 06-07-07, 08:42 AM	Maybe an acid test is needed. Cool, I haven't dropped acid in years.
Radijs 06-07-07, 08:49 AM	Dropping acid? I guess you're referring to drug use. No I mean to run a test battle where we see which is more balanced, 2 full attacks or a shared full attack.
Steely_Dan 06-07-07, 09:18 AM	No I mean to run a test battle where we see which is more balanced, 2 full attacks or a shared full attack. I know, I was just kidding… Two full attacks are potentially way too powerful for a LA +1 race (monks, TWF rogues etc), but I would be interested in the results of a play-test. Plus, if casters are limited to one spell a round, why should other class types get twice as many actions?
Radijs 06-07-07, 11:02 AM	I'm in the mood for setting something up. What shall we experiment with?
Steely_Dan 06-07-07, 11:14 AM	I'm in the mood for setting something up. What shall we experiment with? Go for high level. Like a 20th level dvati rogue with GTWF, or a 20th level dvati monk etc. And put them up against a variety of opponents (monsters, NPC's with class levels etc)
Radijs 06-07-07, 11:57 AM	I myself was thinking of doing several tests. Dvati rogue at level 5, 10 and 20. and Dvati barbarian at the same levels. Both will be a part of a party of 4 characters with the classic rollup. Fighter, rogue, cleric, wizard where the Dvati would be taking one of these classes.
koiulpoi 07-22-07, 03:18 AM	Damage, nothing. These guys are the definition of glass cannon. The splitting of the hitpoints into two characters means they are rather squishy, although getting the full benefit of the constitution score means they may actually end up with more total HP than other characters. This is irrelevant, however, because if one twin dies, so does the other. Yes, it takes a few days, but it's essentially fatal. Your character becomes nigh useless without your other twin, and on top of that you take penalties to CON until you die, along with cumulative minuses to just about everything that matters. This can't be healed without the other twin coming back to life, so you're essentially dead. Area of effect spells affect both twins separately, meaning effectively double damage to your character. How about gaze attacks? Each round you fight a bodak (for instance) you have to save twice or die. How about mind-affecting spells? Take something like Color Spray or its big brothers. You only have to hit one twin to take them both out. Or, if you want to "make sure", get them both in the area of it and force two saves. Or, Phantasmal Killer? If either fails their saves they both die, immediately. Same for Psychic Crush. Overall, they're very strong offensively, but their level adjustment, low hitpoints, and extreme susceptibility to spells and effects makes them rather balanced, in my book. Oh, and they make terrible spellcasters, as well, which is another reason to knock them. Because, after all, damage isn't everything. The Hulking Hurler may be able to throw out trillions of damage, but he can be taken out by just about anyone with a higher initiative and any sort of spellcasting. (No, I'm not saying the Hulking Hurler is anywhere near balanced, I was merely using it as an example).
JiCi 07-22-07, 07:24 AM	How about gaze attacks? Each round you fight a bodak (for instance) you have to save twice or die.Well, if both actually face the bodak, that is. Only one gets to save if there's only one twin that is subject to the bodak's gaze. Here's a psionic-related question: If the schism power is used, do both twins get an additional mental action, or is it only one of them ?
koiulpoi 07-22-07, 12:34 PM	Well, if both actually face the bodak, that is. Only one gets to save if there's only one twin that is subject to the bodak's gaze. I was talking as if they were both there. Most of the screams of "broken!" were related to having two sets of full-round actions. Assuming that, it means they're both facing the Bodak, and each round both of them have to save (twice if it bothers to gaze instead of attack) or die, and as I said before, if one dies, the other dies eventually. Here's a psionic-related question: If the schism power is used, do both twins get an additional mental action, or is it only one of them ? Heh heh. Psionics are so fuzzy when related to these creatures anyways. However, Schizm is "Mind-Affecting", so it automatically affects both twins. However, it wouldn't be that helpful. Since both twins have to concentrate to manifest (since we have to assume spell-psionics transparency), having the extra mind would only let you manifest one extra power as usual, as the other twin's extra mind would also have to concentrate when doing so.
Radijs 07-23-07, 01:19 PM	I've looked up the gaze attack and when a creature actively focuses its gaze it does so against a single target. This means that a Dvati would at most have to save three times during a round. Twice for the normal gaze and once for the focused gaze.
koiulpoi 07-23-07, 01:26 PM	I've looked up the gaze attack and when a creature actively focuses its gaze it does so against a single target. This means that a Dvati would at most have to save three times during a round. Twice for the normal gaze and once for the focused gaze. Which is what I said, essentially, because of the idea that "If one twin dies, the other dies too". Personally, I would rule it to take hours or minutes rather than days for the other twin to waste away.
Radijs 07-23-07, 01:27 PM	Hmm? Maybe its the run of the sentence. I believe you implied that the twins had to save 4 times if it gazes instead of attacking.
koiulpoi 07-23-07, 01:38 PM	Ah, yes, I can see how you might get confused. I said How about gaze attacks? Each round you fight a bodak (for instance) you have to save twice or die. Which was implying that you have to save for both twins separately - I wasn't even considering the creature focusing its gaze. Although, a Bodak's slam is pretty weak, so it would most likely focus its gaze. So, you're correct, the player would have to save three times when fighting one.
JLaurHughes 07-29-07, 09:50 PM	I've read this thread(almost entirely, skipped over the majority of the disagreements since they got repetitive) and have come up with this about the race and special qualities. It's an interesting race, rather flavorful as someone else stated. I've taken a look at the abilities individually. I don't really see them as "Cons" per se. Darkvision is always a plus to the party, even if it is in black and white vision only. Twins have one mind, though can act separately in everything except actions requiring concentration. This also comes with a disadvantage, any spells or effects that are mind affecting can potentially debilitate both of them(Though people will probably debate this with some good arguments, One will save for the pair. I can back this up with "A mind-affecting ability or spell that affects one twin affects both of them. If a single such ability targets both twins at the same time, they make only one save between them."). If one Twin is outside the radius of an area effect only one needs to make the reflex save or fortitude save but both are still potentially affected due to their bond. This is a telepathic bond. If one feels pain the other will know and be able to take the necessary action to help. "A twin cannot perceive what his other sees, hears, or otherwise perceives. As a full-round action, a dvati twin can determine his twin's current hit points and mental state." before anyone can argue against this point. Since they both need to take the actions to cast spells even if one is deafened or blinded the telepathic link between them doesn't affect spellcasting. While One is blind he/she can still talk(Verbal component) and the other can provide the material focus and somatic elements. The misconception that I saw is that if there is a spell being cast one of them does nothing while the other casts. But I can see where this comes from When a dvati casts a spell, both members of the pair must focus and concentrate on it. Both twins must simultaneously take the actions required to cast a spell, although only one must supply material components. One twin cannot cast a spell while the other attacks, for example. A lone dvati can cast spells if his twin takes no actions while he casts. Any other sort of action, including a free one, makes it impossible for the casting twin to focus and use his spell. If the dvati tries to use a spell anyway, his casting attempt is ruined and the spell is lost. Echo Attack needs a performance check to set the DC(Bards, Monks and Rogues have this as a class feature). Requires both of them to flank the opponent. If the opponent fails toe Will Save the Twins gain their choice of +1 Attack or +1 AC(Circumstance). Through Pair Link: +3 while flanking with each other. And if using the Aid Another action detailed in the PHB and in the SRD, they get +4 instead of the normal +2(good bonus if you ask me). Spell Conductor: While one twin is under the effect of a spell, that twin can take a move action to concentrate and shift the target of the spell - as long as the spell is harmless and only has a single target. They cannot shift a spell that someone, other than the other twin, is gaining the benefit of. Drawbacks, as mentioned they are One character - Shared Gold, gear, and XP. If one fails a Will save they essentially both fail. Roleplaying application(Only one possibility among many) *DM's Perspective: One twin meets the party and explains that his/her - brother/sister has gone to fight for the freedom of his/her village. While talking to the party the twin suffers a telepathic break down and freaks out on the party with the equivalent to a mental breakdown to an emotional outburst of tears. Urges the party to help him/her find the body. *Player's Perspective: The party picks up the twins who are bickering over something at first. The player roleplaying this should somehow show this. While in battle they sync their moves and show more teamwork than some of the other party members.
Everwho 07-29-07, 11:53 PM	Which is what I said, essentially, because of the idea that "If one twin dies, the other dies too". Personally, I would rule it to take hours or minutes rather than days for the other twin to waste away. This is something left over from the 2nd edition version of the race I created for Dragon Magazine. The reason it takes days is to provide the players with an opportunity to "fix" the situation, by having the dead twin raised or resurrected or whatever. In my original article, I think I mentioned that it's technically possible for a lone dvati to survive, but the process is so painful and the consequences so devastating to them that they usually suicide to assure that doesn't happen.
TiwazTyrsfist 07-30-07, 05:25 PM	Wow, I like this race. Enough that I may buy the Dragon Compendium just for them... I'm definately on the side of "Two Bodies means two full actions". My interesting question for the day is, how does having one soul in two bodies interact with Incarnum classes. I know the OP posted his ideas, but I'm inclined to disagree on some points. All the Incarnum abilities/power/what have you are soul related. I think that, therefore, a Dvati meldshaper can only bind one soulmeld per chakra even across both bodies. That is to say that if one body had something bound to the crown chakra, the other could not bind something to it's crown chakra, because they are in truth the same chakra even though they are on seperate bodies. However, he could have a seperate soulmeld occupying his head, even if the other body had a crown/brow chakra bind going. Also, if they got the double bind class feature (where they can bind two melds to a single chakra) then they could split that up. I.E. with double bind each body could have one meld bound to the chakra, or one body could have two melds bound to the chakra.
Everwho 07-30-07, 05:51 PM	Wow, I like this race. Enough that I may buy the Dragon Compendium just for them... Even though I had nothing to do with the d20 version, they stuck pretty close to my original thematic design, so I'll go ahead and say thanks. :-) The rest of the Compendium is damned cool, so, dvati or no, I think it's worth the money. I'm a fan of the tibbits, myself. Shapechanging house-cats. That's just fun. I recommend spellcasters for them, though. Even with roguely sneak attack damage added in, their tiny size just reduces their effectiveness so much. I made up a tibbit factotem and, while he was fun to play, he was super-useless in a fight. But I digress... I'm definately on the side of "Two Bodies means two full actions". My interesting question for the day is, how does having one soul in two bodies interact with Incarnum classes. I know the OP posted his ideas, but I'm inclined to disagree on some points. I personally don't know much about the Incarnum classes, but I think it's good to emphasize again that, according to the d20 rules, your dvati character is, in essence, a single character, despite the twinned bodies. It's obviously a rather difficult concept to wrap our brains around (judging by the amount of discussion they've generated here and on Paizo's boards), but, in the end, I think most questions we have about them can boil down to that. I haven't playtested one yet myself, but it seems to me that most issues can be summed up with "it works just as it would with one character, and when it doesn't, treat them as two individual characters." It seems to me that, after that, most things will work themselves out. I also support the two-full-actions idea, just a matter of playability. They need something to balance out the hit-point problem.
TiwazTyrsfist 07-30-07, 07:10 PM	So, the short for on Incarnum is this. Meldshapes are magical constructs that take the place of magic items. The fill a body slot, just as a magic item would. A head slot meldshape means you can't gain the benefit of a magic helm. A shoulder slot meldshape means you can't benefit from a magic cloak(or similar). Chakra binds power up a meldshape, expanding it's effects. For example, shaping the Adamant Pauldrons meld takes up your shoulder slot and provides light fortification (25% resistance to crit/sneak). Binding it to your shoulder Chakra increases it to medium fortification (50% resist). Secondly; Incarnum, Meldshapes, and Essentia are made of the raw material of souls. As in, Meldshapes are made of Incarnum, and Incarnum is the raw material that is also used to make a soul. Essentia is your personal Incarnum, which is to say that you invest part of your own soul energy into meldshapes to add power to them as well. I'm a big fan of incarnum, so I'm rather interested as to how it would interact with the Dvati.
JLaurHughes 07-30-07, 08:00 PM	Coming up with Racial Sub levels for the Dvati sounds like a great idea, Specifically for Bard and some other classes.
Everwho 07-30-07, 08:29 PM	Secondly; Incarnum, Meldshapes, and Essentia are made of the raw material of souls. As in, Meldshapes are made of Incarnum, and Incarnum is the raw material that is also used to make a soul. Essentia is your personal Incarnum, which is to say that you invest part of your own soul energy into meldshapes to add power to them as well. (Apparently, I need to actually read the books I buy...) Okay, this is pretty interesting. It sounds to me that the raw material for Incarnum and Meldshapes comes from without and Essentia comes from within. As such, if you were in my game, I would rule that you each twin gets his own slots for Incarnum and Meldshapes and they share slots for Essentia between them. The idea being that Incarnum out in the world is, basically, an element and, as such, is virtually limitless, while the Incarnum of your own soul is limited and since the dvati share a single soul, they only get a single soul's worth of slots. Does that make sense? Am I interpreting the difference between the three types of Incarnum correctly? That's may take on it, at least.
Richmud 07-31-07, 12:57 PM	(Apparently, I need to actually read the books I buy...) Okay, this is pretty interesting. It sounds to me that the raw material for Incarnum and Meldshapes comes from without and Essentia comes from within. As such, if you were in my game, I would rule that you each twin gets his own slots for Incarnum and Meldshapes and they share slots for Essentia between them. The idea being that Incarnum out in the world is, basically, an element and, as such, is virtually limitless, while the Incarnum of your own soul is limited and since the dvati share a single soul, they only get a single soul's worth of slots. Does that make sense? Am I interpreting the difference between the three types of Incarnum correctly? That's may take on it, at least. Thats sensible to me, the fact that there is a limited number of soulmelds you can posses in total keeps it balanced. I would make the soul chakra work a little different then all others as they do only have one soul and therefor have them both gain the befit of any meld placed there
JiCi 07-31-07, 09:09 PM	How about this ? A soulmeld bound to a dvati's soul charka affects both twins, each gaining the effect(s) of the soulmeld. However, the other charkas are split between the twins. For instance, each twin can bind a soulmeld to their shoulders, but they must pick from the same list of soulmelds that the PC picks. In such, they cannot have the same soulmeld, but they could bind two soulmelds to their own charkas, since their have two brow charkas, two feet charkas, two arm charkas, etc...
Asra 08-01-07, 10:46 AM	I think the main issue with giving them only one round of actions between the two of them is that they would never be able to flank an intelligent opponent and get a full round of sneak attacks unless they were invisible or the like. Since no intelligent opponent would let two opponents moves to both sides of him, for their entire action without attacking. Basically, if the opponent does not move away, he can at least do a full round attack on one of the Dvati, and still make a five foot step to feasibly get out of range. Now my question is... What happens if a Dvati undergoes the ritual to become a lich? Since they technically only have one soul, it would go into the phylactery, but would they have two lich bodies?
Everwho 08-01-07, 02:30 PM	I think the main issue with giving them only one round of actions between the two of them is that they would never be able to flank an intelligent opponent and get a full round of sneak attacks unless they were invisible or the like. Yeah, I'm finding that most people seem to be house-ruling them so that each twin gets full actions. Hmmmmn... A compromise might be to give them each a single move-action but only one attack-action between them. That way they can still set up and get the benefit of flanking in a round, but make more conservative DM's happy that one player isn't getting more attacks than his share. Now my question is... What happens if a Dvati undergoes the ritual to become a lich? Since they technically only have one soul, it would go into the phylactery, but would they have two lich bodies? My take is yes or no, depending on how tragic you want it to be. For lichdom, the process is voluntary, so I could see it affecting both. For something like lycanthropy of vampirism, I could see it affecting one, leaving the other to deal with the situation. This would especially be bad for the vampire dvati, who's technically dead, meaning he'd have to watch his twin wither and die, a very tragic situation, worthy of a setting like Ravenloft. Of course, since vampires tend to turn evil after their "embrace" (to borrow terminology), chances of him not attacking and turning his twin is pretty remote. Vampire or no, a dvati alone would be a shell of a creature. But liches? Yeah, one soul means twin liches as far as I'm concerned.
Radijs 08-02-07, 10:39 AM	That could be something very tragic indeed. Perhaps said lich needed to be immortal for some reason and had no choice but to watch his soul mate die. Homerus would approve.
the_poison_elf 08-04-07, 07:07 PM	I havn't gone through all of the pages here, so link me if this has been covered... What happens if you tack on a template? Asside from the fact that it will pound your HP into the negative, will the Half-Fiend template fully effect both twins? I'm not saying it's a *wise* idea, seeing as how the combination of a LA of 5 and the splitting of the HP would give an ECL 10 barbarian (barb 5, la 5) an average of 15hp each, not including any bonus from Con (and really, even a Con of 20 isn't going to help much, since it still leaves you at two 40HP barbarians running around at 10th level [ie: 4hp per level]).
Everwho 08-04-07, 07:57 PM	What happens if you tack on a template? Asside from the fact that it will pound your HP into the negative, will the Half-Fiend template fully effect both twins? Well, I've already given my opinion on how undead templates would work. As for others, I think it would depend on the template. Half-Fiend is an inherited template, meaning that if one twin is born a half-fiend, so is the other. They're twins, that's kind of how it works. The question comes in with the application of acquired templates. The best rule-of-thumb I can think of to use there would be to figure out if the template direct affects the soul (as most undead templates do). If it does, then it applies to both twins. If not, then I'd say that it only affects the body of one of them at a time.
JiCi 08-23-07, 04:00 PM	Here are a few rules: Undead templates: if one twin is killed by a spawn-creating undead, the template is applied only if the other twin dies. Lycanthropy: if one twin gets afflicted, the other twin could have to make a Will or Fort save to prevent the spreading. In this case, it's a curse, so it affects both the body and soul.
JiCi 08-26-07, 08:32 AM	Here's a killer idea: have a Dvati wu jen cast the Body outside Body spell. At 20th level, that's not 4, but 8 clones of yourself, each with 1/8 of your total hp. If a martial Dvati character (fighter, barbarian, monk, ranger, paladin, warblade, soulborn, marshall, etc.) gets this spell as a usable spell-like ability, even if it's just 1/day or as a one-time use magic item, attacks are going to rain. While you cannot have more than 8 opponents around a Medium target, you may add 18 new squares if fighting in 3D. What do you think ?
Radijs 08-26-07, 11:55 AM	I think fireball or any other spread will blow all the clones away easily. How many HP would they end up with? 10? 20? Talking about magic again, how do Dvati work with quicklened spells & swift spells (IE Wraithstrike)?