"Elves are pansies!"/"But, uh, you ARE an Elf..." [Archive] - Wizards Community

"Elves are pansies!"/"But, uh, you ARE an Elf..." [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
neo-Aeris
07-10-07, 08:07 PM Let me say this right off the bat: I am creating this character for "roleplaying" purposes, not for "build optimization". Heck, not even for "sense making".

This, too, should be said: I am VERY much a newbie to DND. Although I feel I have a firm grasp on the rules ("I want to do something. I should roll a d20, right?"), the character creation process is not something I've mastered. I have only played in one campaign, and I played a straight up human rogue.

Now, on to the actual post!

This Thursday, I am going to meet a few people at a local gaming store to see if we can start a campaign. It is most likely going to take place in Forgotten Realms, with which I have NO experience. In any case, I want to show up with a few character ideas prepared so I can let the DM know what kind of player I'll be and what I want out of his campaign.

One idea that I'm mulling over that I'm really starting to like is based on the following thought process:
-Elves are wusses.
-Ranger elves, probably wusses.
-Girls? Not known to be the "less-wussy" gender.
-Dwarves are most certainly not wusses.

So what if an elven girl was raised in a full-on Dwarven society? I think it would create a VERY interesting character personality, and a good look at what traits are really "racial" based and what traits are "culturally" based. I'll worry about the how, why, and wtf, but as for game statistics, I need help!

I'm looking through the PHB and SRD, and seeing what combination of Elven/Dwarven racial traits would be logically suited AND well-balanced for this character.

I'll give a list of the racial traits (from the SRD), and show what combinations seem "logical" to me.
Green= racial trait that could be used.
Gray= racial trait that shouldn't be used
Blue= I'm not sure. Probably should be modified at best.
Black= Comments by moi.

+2 Dexterity, –2 Constitution.
Medium: As Medium creatures, elves have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Elf base land speed is 30 feet.
Immunity to magic sleep effects, and a +2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells or effects.
Low-Light Vision: An elf can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. She retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
Weapon Proficiency: Elves receive the Martial Weapon Proficiency feats for the longsword, rapier, longbow (including composite longbow), and shortbow (including composite shortbow) as bonus feats.
+2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks. An elf who merely passes within 5 feet of a secret or concealed door is entitled to a Search check to notice it as if she were actively looking for it. I simply don't know about this one. It can go either way, depending on what I need to balance.
Automatic Languages: Common and Elven. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Gnoll, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, and Sylvan.
Favored Class: Wizard. A multiclass elf’s wizard class does not count when determining whether she takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing.

+2 Constitution, –2 Charisma
Medium: As Medium creatures, dwarves have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Dwarf base land speed is 20 feet. However, dwarves can move at this speed even when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load (unlike other creatures, whose speed is reduced in such situations).
Darkvision: Dwarves can see in the dark up to 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and dwarves can function just fine with no light at all.
Stonecunning: This ability grants a dwarf a +2 racial bonus on Search checks to notice unusual stonework, such as sliding walls, stonework traps, new construction (even when built to match the old), unsafe stone surfaces, shaky stone ceilings, and the like. Something that isn’t stone but that is disguised as stone also counts as unusual stonework. A dwarf who merely comes within 10 feet of unusual stonework can make a Search check as if he were actively searching, and a dwarf can use the Search skill to find stonework traps as a rogue can. A dwarf can also intuit depth, sensing his approximate depth underground as naturally as a human can sense which way is up. This definitely seems to be more along the lines of "culturally" trait, but again for balancing purposes it's a bit of a toss up.
Weapon Familiarity: Dwarves may treat dwarven waraxes and dwarven urgroshes as martial weapons, rather than exotic weapons.
Stability: A dwarf gains a +4 bonus on ability checks made to resist being bull rushed or tripped when standing on the ground (but not when climbing, flying, riding, or otherwise not standing firmly on the ground).
+2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison.
+2 racial bonus on saving throws against spells and spell-like effects.
+1 racial bonus on attack rolls against orcs and goblinoids. I think instead of using this as a racial trait, I'll simply make my first favored enemy Human(goblinoid) and blame it on Dwarven upbringing.
+4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against monsters of the giant type. Any time a creature loses its Dexterity bonus (if any) to Armor Class, such as when it’s caught flat-footed, it loses its dodge bonus, too. The fluff text for this is something along the lines of "Over time, Dwarves learned to kick Giant butt". I would think that, although an Elf might go through the same training, it's different body structure would make said training less effective. Perhaps a +2 instead of a +4?
+2 racial bonus on Appraise checks that are related to stone or metal items.
+2 racial bonus on Craft checks that are related to stone or metal.
Automatic Languages: Common and Dwarven. Bonus Languages: Giant, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, Terran, and Undercommon.
Favored Class: Fighter. A multiclass dwarf’s fighter class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing.

If you need any clarification about my senseless blabber, please ask. Any and all comments and suggestions are THOROUGHLY welcome!
Tema69
07-10-07, 08:20 PM I would use all the stuff in green, and give her +2 Search and Spot (the elf has spent time looking at stuff and being curious etc, but in the near-constant racket of the dwarven forges and blacksmiths and so on have not developped as keen ears.. I have this thing about dwarven cities/holds as being reeeally noisy. Actually, dwarves in general, but I just might have read to much dragonlance..)
I would not allow the secret door thing.

"Stonecunning: This ability grants a dwarf a +2 racial bonus on Search checks to notice unusual stonework, such as sliding walls, stonework traps, new construction (even when built to match the old), unsafe stone surfaces, shaky stone ceilings, and the like. Something that isn’t stone but that is disguised as stone also counts as unusual stonework. A dwarf who merely comes within 10 feet of unusual stonework can make a Search check as if he were actively searching, and a dwarf can use the Search skill to find stonework traps as a rogue can."
This is cool enough, but the sense depth thing is racial, and therefor not applicable to an elf.

And I'd use a +2 Dodge bonus vs giants.

Looks interesting.. A female elven ranger brought up by dwarves.. hmm... Would she grow a beard? :)
TheLastEvilDrow
07-10-07, 08:43 PM This is hilarious.

As a DM I would totally allow it. If you're going to play FR though you'll want to read up on all their rules for stuff. And to cement the whole different upbringing, don't choose an Elf region for your home region, but pick one of the Dwarven ones, they'll provide a neat little bonus and bring more crunch to your unusual fluff.

Just my thoughts/advice.
neo-Aeris
07-10-07, 08:53 PM As per Tema69's suggestions ("lol, 69"), the racial stats would be:

+2 Dexterity, –2 Constitution
Medium: As Medium creatures, elves have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Elf base land speed is 30 feet.
Immunity to magic sleep effects, and a +2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells or effects.
Low-Light Vision: An elf can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. She retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
+2 racial bonus on Search and Spot checks
Stonecunning: This ability grants a dwarf (or elf in this case) a +2 racial bonus on Search checks to notice unusual stonework, such as sliding walls, stonework traps, new construction (even when built to match the old), unsafe stone surfaces, shaky stone ceilings, and the like. Something that isn’t stone but that is disguised as stone also counts as unusual stonework. A dwarf (elf) who merely comes within 10 feet of unusual stonework can make a Search check as if he were actively searching, and a dwarf can use the Search skill to find stonework traps as a rogue can.
Weapon Familiarity: Dwarves (this elf) may treat dwarven waraxes and dwarven urgroshes as martial weapons, rather than exotic weapons.
+2 dodge bonus to Armor Class against monsters of the giant type. Any time a creature loses its Dexterity bonus (if any) to Armor Class, such as when it’s caught flat-footed, it loses its dodge bonus, too
+2 racial bonus on Appraise checks that are related to stone or metal items.
+2 racial bonus on Craft checks that are related to stone or metal.
Automatic Languages: Common and Dwarven. Bonus Languages: Giant, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, Terran, and Undercommon.EDIT:She just might, you know, want to learn Elven. Maybe.
Favored Class: Fighter. A multiclass dwarf’s (elf's) fighter class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing.

To TheLastEvilDrow (GREAT screen name XD):

My main concern is that this "build" won't be able to fit into the FR setting. I have not read ANY of the books, and the local gaming store doesn't carry anything realted to FR because it (the store) is very, very small. (I'm in the middle of nowhere, I'm surprised there's ANYTHING DND related out here!). Is there any online information you can (legally) link to so I can get the gist for FR?

Thanks again to you both (and to anyone who might ninja me).
Genetic
07-10-07, 10:15 PM Is there any online information you can (legally) link to so I can get the gist for FR?

If it's an NPC, it's at least level 25!

Edit: That sums up Forgotten Realms. :P
Jshock_75
07-10-07, 11:08 PM Does this she can use a greatsword?
neo-Aeris
07-10-07, 11:15 PM Does this she can use a greatsword?

No, but her chosen deity is the great Fant.

(Crazy famous n00b threads ftw!)

P.S. I'm still questioning the balance. It seems to me like she's getting the best of both worlds.
Madsamurai
07-11-07, 12:35 AM All the abilities you have are pretty fairly traded.
Secret door sense for stonecunning, weapon proficioncies for weapon familiarity, etc...

The only thing that is kinda random is that you trade the +2 dodge bounus vs. Giants. for your "elves-sleep-for-only-4-hours" ability.

Though all in all, you are nowere near overpowered. I really think that this would be a cool character to play.

Though I wonder how she would deal with all the dwarves around her having Darkvision. I guess it would be hard growing up in a culture that does not need light to see.
Neutronium_Dragon
07-11-07, 12:39 AM Take the basic elf. Replace the weapon proficiency feature with the weapon familiarity feature of the dwarf. Done.

Tacking on a bunch of dwarven traits is going to stick you with a level adjustment, which you really don't want.

You may also have some theme issues with this character in the Forgotten Realms; while the stat blocks are the same and the cultures are similar, there are differences - in particular, the stereotypical "racial rivalry" thing doesn't go on very much. (At least no more so than such prejudice happens in general; there are some very xenophobic undercurrents in FR elven society.)
The_Shaman
07-11-07, 03:36 AM If it's an NPC, it's at least level 25!

Edit: That sums up Forgotten Realms. :P

No, that sums how people think of the Realms. You'd be surprised how many lvl 1 commoners you see there, I bet. Anyway, Neo-Aeris, you can check Wikipedia here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forgotten_Realms) or the poorly-made but still usable FR Wiki (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page), but for some okay study I would recommend Candlekeep (http://www.candlekeep.com/).
Leeroy
07-11-07, 02:35 PM i would have your char having a +2 dex this would be more racial, and -2 char due to living around dwarves wouldnt keep herself to the standard you would think of for an elf...

and basicly if she would have learnt or aquired traits from elves, loose em if they are from dwarves use them....

this is how i would like to see it but i guess it really comes down to your DM

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
neo-Aeris 07-10-07, 08:07 PM	Let me say this right off the bat: I am creating this character for "roleplaying" purposes, not for "build optimization". Heck, not even for "sense making". This, too, should be said: I am VERY much a newbie to DND. Although I feel I have a firm grasp on the rules ("I want to do something. I should roll a d20, right?"), the character creation process is not something I've mastered. I have only played in one campaign, and I played a straight up human rogue. Now, on to the actual post! This Thursday, I am going to meet a few people at a local gaming store to see if we can start a campaign. It is most likely going to take place in Forgotten Realms, with which I have NO experience. In any case, I want to show up with a few character ideas prepared so I can let the DM know what kind of player I'll be and what I want out of his campaign. One idea that I'm mulling over that I'm really starting to like is based on the following thought process: -Elves are wusses. -Ranger elves, probably wusses. -Girls? Not known to be the "less-wussy" gender. -Dwarves are most certainly not wusses. So what if an elven girl was raised in a full-on Dwarven society? I think it would create a VERY interesting character personality, and a good look at what traits are really "racial" based and what traits are "culturally" based. I'll worry about the how, why, and wtf, but as for game statistics, I need help! I'm looking through the PHB and SRD, and seeing what combination of Elven/Dwarven racial traits would be logically suited AND well-balanced for this character. I'll give a list of the racial traits (from the SRD), and show what combinations seem "logical" to me. Green= racial trait that could be used. Gray= racial trait that shouldn't be used Blue= I'm not sure. Probably should be modified at best. Black= Comments by moi. +2 Dexterity, –2 Constitution. Medium: As Medium creatures, elves have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. Elf base land speed is 30 feet. Immunity to magic sleep effects, and a +2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells or effects. Low-Light Vision: An elf can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. She retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions. Weapon Proficiency: Elves receive the Martial Weapon Proficiency feats for the longsword, rapier, longbow (including composite longbow), and shortbow (including composite shortbow) as bonus feats. +2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks. An elf who merely passes within 5 feet of a secret or concealed door is entitled to a Search check to notice it as if she were actively looking for it. I simply don't know about this one. It can go either way, depending on what I need to balance. Automatic Languages: Common and Elven. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Gnoll, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, and Sylvan. Favored Class: Wizard. A multiclass elf’s wizard class does not count when determining whether she takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing. +2 Constitution, –2 Charisma Medium: As Medium creatures, dwarves have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. Dwarf base land speed is 20 feet. However, dwarves can move at this speed even when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load (unlike other creatures, whose speed is reduced in such situations). Darkvision: Dwarves can see in the dark up to 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and dwarves can function just fine with no light at all. Stonecunning: This ability grants a dwarf a +2 racial bonus on Search checks to notice unusual stonework, such as sliding walls, stonework traps, new construction (even when built to match the old), unsafe stone surfaces, shaky stone ceilings, and the like. Something that isn’t stone but that is disguised as stone also counts as unusual stonework. A dwarf who merely comes within 10 feet of unusual stonework can make a Search check as if he were actively searching, and a dwarf can use the Search skill to find stonework traps as a rogue can. A dwarf can also intuit depth, sensing his approximate depth underground as naturally as a human can sense which way is up. This definitely seems to be more along the lines of "culturally" trait, but again for balancing purposes it's a bit of a toss up. Weapon Familiarity: Dwarves may treat dwarven waraxes and dwarven urgroshes as martial weapons, rather than exotic weapons. Stability: A dwarf gains a +4 bonus on ability checks made to resist being bull rushed or tripped when standing on the ground (but not when climbing, flying, riding, or otherwise not standing firmly on the ground). +2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison. +2 racial bonus on saving throws against spells and spell-like effects. +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against orcs and goblinoids. I think instead of using this as a racial trait, I'll simply make my first favored enemy Human(goblinoid) and blame it on Dwarven upbringing. +4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against monsters of the giant type. Any time a creature loses its Dexterity bonus (if any) to Armor Class, such as when it’s caught flat-footed, it loses its dodge bonus, too. The fluff text for this is something along the lines of "Over time, Dwarves learned to kick Giant butt". I would think that, although an Elf might go through the same training, it's different body structure would make said training less effective. Perhaps a +2 instead of a +4? +2 racial bonus on Appraise checks that are related to stone or metal items. +2 racial bonus on Craft checks that are related to stone or metal. Automatic Languages: Common and Dwarven. Bonus Languages: Giant, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, Terran, and Undercommon. Favored Class: Fighter. A multiclass dwarf’s fighter class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing. If you need any clarification about my senseless blabber, please ask. Any and all comments and suggestions are THOROUGHLY welcome!
Tema69 07-10-07, 08:20 PM	I would use all the stuff in green, and give her +2 Search and Spot (the elf has spent time looking at stuff and being curious etc, but in the near-constant racket of the dwarven forges and blacksmiths and so on have not developped as keen ears.. I have this thing about dwarven cities/holds as being reeeally noisy. Actually, dwarves in general, but I just might have read to much dragonlance..) I would not allow the secret door thing. "Stonecunning: This ability grants a dwarf a +2 racial bonus on Search checks to notice unusual stonework, such as sliding walls, stonework traps, new construction (even when built to match the old), unsafe stone surfaces, shaky stone ceilings, and the like. Something that isn’t stone but that is disguised as stone also counts as unusual stonework. A dwarf who merely comes within 10 feet of unusual stonework can make a Search check as if he were actively searching, and a dwarf can use the Search skill to find stonework traps as a rogue can." This is cool enough, but the sense depth thing is racial, and therefor not applicable to an elf. And I'd use a +2 Dodge bonus vs giants. Looks interesting.. A female elven ranger brought up by dwarves.. hmm... Would she grow a beard? :)
TheLastEvilDrow 07-10-07, 08:43 PM	This is hilarious. As a DM I would totally allow it. If you're going to play FR though you'll want to read up on all their rules for stuff. And to cement the whole different upbringing, don't choose an Elf region for your home region, but pick one of the Dwarven ones, they'll provide a neat little bonus and bring more crunch to your unusual fluff. Just my thoughts/advice.
neo-Aeris 07-10-07, 08:53 PM	As per Tema69's suggestions ("lol, 69"), the racial stats would be: +2 Dexterity, –2 Constitution Medium: As Medium creatures, elves have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. Elf base land speed is 30 feet. Immunity to magic sleep effects, and a +2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells or effects. Low-Light Vision: An elf can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. She retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions. +2 racial bonus on Search and Spot checks Stonecunning: This ability grants a dwarf (or elf in this case) a +2 racial bonus on Search checks to notice unusual stonework, such as sliding walls, stonework traps, new construction (even when built to match the old), unsafe stone surfaces, shaky stone ceilings, and the like. Something that isn’t stone but that is disguised as stone also counts as unusual stonework. A dwarf (elf) who merely comes within 10 feet of unusual stonework can make a Search check as if he were actively searching, and a dwarf can use the Search skill to find stonework traps as a rogue can. Weapon Familiarity: Dwarves (this elf) may treat dwarven waraxes and dwarven urgroshes as martial weapons, rather than exotic weapons. +2 dodge bonus to Armor Class against monsters of the giant type. Any time a creature loses its Dexterity bonus (if any) to Armor Class, such as when it’s caught flat-footed, it loses its dodge bonus, too +2 racial bonus on Appraise checks that are related to stone or metal items. +2 racial bonus on Craft checks that are related to stone or metal. Automatic Languages: Common and Dwarven. Bonus Languages: Giant, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, Terran, and Undercommon.EDIT:She just might, you know, want to learn Elven. Maybe. Favored Class: Fighter. A multiclass dwarf’s (elf's) fighter class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing. To TheLastEvilDrow (GREAT screen name XD): My main concern is that this "build" won't be able to fit into the FR setting. I have not read ANY of the books, and the local gaming store doesn't carry anything realted to FR because it (the store) is very, very small. (I'm in the middle of nowhere, I'm surprised there's ANYTHING DND related out here!). Is there any online information you can (legally) link to so I can get the gist for FR? Thanks again to you both (and to anyone who might ninja me).
Genetic 07-10-07, 10:15 PM	Is there any online information you can (legally) link to so I can get the gist for FR? If it's an NPC, it's at least level 25! Edit: That sums up Forgotten Realms. :P
Jshock_75 07-10-07, 11:08 PM	Does this she can use a greatsword?
neo-Aeris 07-10-07, 11:15 PM	Does this she can use a greatsword? No, but her chosen deity is the great Fant. (Crazy famous n00b threads ftw!) P.S. I'm still questioning the balance. It seems to me like she's getting the best of both worlds.
Madsamurai 07-11-07, 12:35 AM	All the abilities you have are pretty fairly traded. Secret door sense for stonecunning, weapon proficioncies for weapon familiarity, etc... The only thing that is kinda random is that you trade the +2 dodge bounus vs. Giants. for your "elves-sleep-for-only-4-hours" ability. Though all in all, you are nowere near overpowered. I really think that this would be a cool character to play. Though I wonder how she would deal with all the dwarves around her having Darkvision. I guess it would be hard growing up in a culture that does not need light to see.
Neutronium_Dragon 07-11-07, 12:39 AM	Take the basic elf. Replace the weapon proficiency feature with the weapon familiarity feature of the dwarf. Done. Tacking on a bunch of dwarven traits is going to stick you with a level adjustment, which you really don't want. You may also have some theme issues with this character in the Forgotten Realms; while the stat blocks are the same and the cultures are similar, there are differences - in particular, the stereotypical "racial rivalry" thing doesn't go on very much. (At least no more so than such prejudice happens in general; there are some very xenophobic undercurrents in FR elven society.)
The_Shaman 07-11-07, 03:36 AM	If it's an NPC, it's at least level 25! Edit: That sums up Forgotten Realms. :P No, that sums how people think of the Realms. You'd be surprised how many lvl 1 commoners you see there, I bet. Anyway, Neo-Aeris, you can check Wikipedia here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forgotten_Realms) or the poorly-made but still usable FR Wiki (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page), but for some okay study I would recommend Candlekeep (http://www.candlekeep.com/).
Leeroy 07-11-07, 02:35 PM	i would have your char having a +2 dex this would be more racial, and -2 char due to living around dwarves wouldnt keep herself to the standard you would think of for an elf... and basicly if she would have learnt or aquired traits from elves, loose em if they are from dwarves use them.... this is how i would like to see it but i guess it really comes down to your DM