"Lowering the ECL of races!" OR "Is LA really that crippling?" [Archive] - Wizards Community

"Lowering the ECL of races!" OR "Is LA really that crippling?" [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Crimson_Concerto
07-25-07, 09:49 PM I see it done all the time on this board. People request a lower ECL version of their favorite race. Whether it be a LA +0 Aasimar or a LA +0 Minotaur or a LA +0 Mind Flayer, there are always ideas, but I've always been... not necessarely OPPOSED to the idea, but opposed to the notion that there should ba a LA +0 version of everything.

So, today, a player of mine asked to play a Sharakim from Races of Destiny. I had no problem with it, but he wanted to simply remove the natural armor bonus and call that an LA +0 race. I suggested that having a level adjustment of +1 would not hurt him at this level and even offered to remove their Light Sensitivity to get him to play at an LA of +1, but he was completely opposed to the idea, citing that the lost of even a single caster level is suicide for a Wizard. However, is a single caster level really going to make all the difference? I mean, really, it's just one caster level, and it's not like you're losing a caster level for absolutely nothing. Yes, he'd be a level behind in learning new spell levels, but then wouldn't that just be on par with a sorcerer's current learning or new spell levels? No big deal, really, right? Apparently he did not agree...

I go on to explain my dislike of lowering ECL on the simple principal that flavor will most often not allow for it. If I reduce a Sharakim to LA +0, why not an Illithid? Just remove the Psionics (Mind Flayers can function flavorfully just fine without, really. Just give them Favored Class: Psion), weaken their mind blast to a 1/day ability, the equivalent of a 1st level spell, and cause the target to become shakened for 1D4 rounds (keeps the flavor, makes the mechanical effect much more low-LA friendly), change the racial ability modifiers to -2 CON, +2 INT (still makes them smarter than humans, right?), remove extract and improve grab (they can just eat brains the normal way, no need to do it in the middle of combat), remove the tentacle attack (they can work the same as unarmed strikes, right?), remove the Telepathy in favor of a Mindlink power (kind of like Kalashtar get. That's plenty), remove all the natural armor and SR, and remove all that needless racial HD, of course. PERFECT!
Problem: This is not an Illithid anymore. It's nowhere close! It's mechanics do not match the flavor at all! A race that is supposed to control various thralls is completely unable to do so logically. A race whose dumbest members were still slightly smarter than the average human is reduced to +2 INT. An iconic user of various psychic techniques is not reduced to two very weak psi-like abilities. Are we really scared of this LA +0 illithid? Does it bring to mind unspeakable plots and the very real threat of a TPK? No, this version's mechanics simply do not live up to its flavor.

*sigh* about an hour into debate later, I realized he just completely didn't see my point at all, and I honestly just don't understand why. I gave in and allowed him to play a LA +0 version of the Sharakim because a lot of his story and character concept lent itself very well to the race, and he accepted this version, despite being slightly underpowered, I feel, for a LA +0 race:

-2 DEX, +2 INT, -2 CHA
Humanoid (human)
Medium
30 ft. base land speed
Darkvision 60 ft.
Favored Class: Wizard
LA +0

So, what do you think? Was I wrong is not wanting him to lower the ECL of this race? Was I wrong for giving in eventually? Findout out how to lower ECL is fun, but in a real campaign, doesn't it kind of cause a metagame knowledge of comfort and reduced threat? Was I unreasonable in my decision to have this LA +0 Sharakim be slightly underpowered as far as LA +0 races go to illustrate my point and displeasure with his unwillingness to compromise?

Please, share your thoughts.
asurademon
07-25-07, 11:00 PM Well, it depends on the campaign, if in your campaign you want illithids, Sharakim or whatever to be innately more powerful than humans, than no you shouldn't let them create a lower LA version, and in the case of more powerful creatures, perhaps you might not even let them be played.

On the other hand if in your campaign creatures start out weaker, and develop their abilities over time, than I don't see a problem with letting a player play a weaker version, whom just happens to still be developing his abilities (maybe certain abilities just come with age and/or experience, as is the case with dragons), or is a member of the weaker variety of his kind. On Illithids specifically, I might decide that their are different castes of illithids in my campaign world, and the character was a part of one of the lower, and thus weaker illithid castes.

I don't know enough about the Sharakim to say for sure what sort of thing would justify him not having the natural armor. Perhaps something horribly damaged his natural armor, and it never healed properly? He'd have to work this into his character's background, and having been wounded badly enough to lose a creatures natural armor would definitely leave him deformed looking. Or, can Sharakim breed with humans? Perhaps he's not full blooded Sharakim, and that's why he doesn't have the natural armor.

Anyhow I don't think a LA of one is that big of a deal, it's LA's over one which are a real pain.
sigma999
07-25-07, 11:20 PM I believe that yes indeed LA is painful to endure, especially at lower levels.
However, the direction that most take in producing new LA+0 races with LA+1 "upgrade" option seems the wrong way to go about it.
We need feat-based racial advancement.
asurademon
07-25-07, 11:40 PM I think something needs to be changed about character creation to allow for low LA races to be played without actually having to deal with the LA. Some sort of prioritizing or point buy system could work. With a prioritizing system you decide what's most important for your character, such as more skills, more feats, a more powerful race etc.... a character with a more powerful race would end up with less skills, and such, Shadowrun managed to make this work (though Shadowrun is a real pain in other ways). Of course, I think that a prioritizing system would probably only work about up to a +1 or maybe +2 LA race.

Or there could be bonus points that all players get to spend on their characters at character creation. So, if someone wants to play a more powerful race, they could spend points to gain what their race gets (spell-like abilities, feats, ability bonuses etc...), and those whom don't want to play a more powerful race could just buy more spells, or feats, or skills.

But in my experience a +1 LA has not been crippling, however this experience is limited pretty much to an aasimar (don't think I've ever played any other +1 LA race). Aasimar may be slightly on the weak side (well, I've heard some people complain that they are anyhow), but not so much so that I've ever found it problematic, and I've played aasimar more than once. One of my DMs even did something which I found really annoying, and made races with an LA even weaker by not having ability bonuses (or penalties) modify abilities, but only change a race's starting ability cap. even then my aasimar character didn't have trouble keeping up with the other characters.
On the other hand I played a half-celestial, and that character really had a hard time keeping up with everyone else, she was so horribly weak. The other creatures with LAs I didn't really play long enough to say whether they were too weak or not.
Neutronium_Dragon
07-26-07, 12:36 AM In the case of dedicated casters (such as a wizard), yes, LA is really that crippling. Casting progression is everything for them, more so than any other abilities they might have.

For other characters it might not be as significant a problem in theory, but there's also the fact that LA is rampantly overcosted on all but a few creatures. LA also has the problem even for these types in that the racial benefits fade in relative significance over the course of levels, whereas the class abilities that you're unable to reach because of it become more and more substantial - you sooner or later reach a point where the character would've been much better off as an LA +0 race as a result.
DrRufio
07-26-07, 01:46 AM Just use common sense, if a race is doing fine for power in relation to its level adjustment, keep the adjustment, it is there for a reason. As far as Sharakim go, they are very underpowered for their LA. They have a total ability score modifier of nothing, and none of the scores are very extreme (nothing more than a +2 or -2), and the pluses and minuses aren't skewed towards all physical or all mental stats (which makes them less exploitable.) and they have minor light sensitivity. the only thing going for them that most LA0 races don't have is a natural armor bonus. take out the natural armor and they can easily be LA0 without breaking a thing.

Most importantly, if you take out natural armor, you are removing the #1 least important aspect of the character for role playing. (and Sharakim are very good for role playing beacuse of their social aspects, unlike that half-dragon that just stands there looking mean.)
skydin
07-26-07, 02:43 AM i dont even add hit dice to the level adjustment (houseruling) for things like that, and its STILL not worth playing. most of the time (like in the case of a nymph) 7 levels in a good class is > playing a nymph.

i.e. ecl needs badly to be reworked. as it is i start charecters with level adjustment a number of levels lower than the average party level equal to their level adjustment, and let them catch up slowly, because all those special abilities arent that great at higher levels anyway.
Vharuck
07-26-07, 03:01 AM But nobody is willing to rework the LA system. The OP's point, and I think the real problem, is that instead of putting in what would amount to a huge project the people who think the LA system is terrible attempt to change everything but the system to get what they want.

To them, it's not just about being an illithid. It's about being an illithid without any negatives whatsoever. Now, an LA of +1 is nothing. Make a wizard a level slow, and I really doubt you'd see any problems ever arise.

The problem is that it seems with certain people mechanics take precedent over character.
sigma999
07-26-07, 03:56 AM But nobody is willing to rework the LA system.

aaahahahahahaaaaaa

Or is it that every time I make a new thread on this subject, the reply count is dismal and depressing?
Given enough positive reinforcement as I post material in progress, I might complete my racial-feat overhaul of the PHB but not for this 'community', no.
Past experience proves that these forums care about 3 things:
1 - complaining about RAW
2 - rejecting house rules
3 - optimizing broken characters using RAW then complaining about them

If I feel like it, I'll link from here to wherever the racial-feats end up but that's the closest it will get.

Maybe it's my recent surgery but everything in this forum just seems.... stale.

I'm going back to The Gaming Den for now, tata.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Crimson_Concerto 07-25-07, 09:49 PM	I see it done all the time on this board. People request a lower ECL version of their favorite race. Whether it be a LA +0 Aasimar or a LA +0 Minotaur or a LA +0 Mind Flayer, there are always ideas, but I've always been... not necessarely OPPOSED to the idea, but opposed to the notion that there should ba a LA +0 version of everything. So, today, a player of mine asked to play a Sharakim from Races of Destiny. I had no problem with it, but he wanted to simply remove the natural armor bonus and call that an LA +0 race. I suggested that having a level adjustment of +1 would not hurt him at this level and even offered to remove their Light Sensitivity to get him to play at an LA of +1, but he was completely opposed to the idea, citing that the lost of even a single caster level is suicide for a Wizard. However, is a single caster level really going to make all the difference? I mean, really, it's just one caster level, and it's not like you're losing a caster level for absolutely nothing. Yes, he'd be a level behind in learning new spell levels, but then wouldn't that just be on par with a sorcerer's current learning or new spell levels? No big deal, really, right? Apparently he did not agree... I go on to explain my dislike of lowering ECL on the simple principal that flavor will most often not allow for it. If I reduce a Sharakim to LA +0, why not an Illithid? Just remove the Psionics (Mind Flayers can function flavorfully just fine without, really. Just give them Favored Class: Psion), weaken their mind blast to a 1/day ability, the equivalent of a 1st level spell, and cause the target to become shakened for 1D4 rounds (keeps the flavor, makes the mechanical effect much more low-LA friendly), change the racial ability modifiers to -2 CON, +2 INT (still makes them smarter than humans, right?), remove extract and improve grab (they can just eat brains the normal way, no need to do it in the middle of combat), remove the tentacle attack (they can work the same as unarmed strikes, right?), remove the Telepathy in favor of a Mindlink power (kind of like Kalashtar get. That's plenty), remove all the natural armor and SR, and remove all that needless racial HD, of course. PERFECT! Problem: This is not an Illithid anymore. It's nowhere close! It's mechanics do not match the flavor at all! A race that is supposed to control various thralls is completely unable to do so logically. A race whose dumbest members were still slightly smarter than the average human is reduced to +2 INT. An iconic user of various psychic techniques is not reduced to two very weak psi-like abilities. Are we really scared of this LA +0 illithid? Does it bring to mind unspeakable plots and the very real threat of a TPK? No, this version's mechanics simply do not live up to its flavor. sigh about an hour into debate later, I realized he just completely didn't see my point at all, and I honestly just don't understand why. I gave in and allowed him to play a LA +0 version of the Sharakim because a lot of his story and character concept lent itself very well to the race, and he accepted this version, despite being slightly underpowered, I feel, for a LA +0 race: -2 DEX, +2 INT, -2 CHA Humanoid (human) Medium 30 ft. base land speed Darkvision 60 ft. Favored Class: Wizard LA +0 So, what do you think? Was I wrong is not wanting him to lower the ECL of this race? Was I wrong for giving in eventually? Findout out how to lower ECL is fun, but in a real campaign, doesn't it kind of cause a metagame knowledge of comfort and reduced threat? Was I unreasonable in my decision to have this LA +0 Sharakim be slightly underpowered as far as LA +0 races go to illustrate my point and displeasure with his unwillingness to compromise? Please, share your thoughts.
asurademon 07-25-07, 11:00 PM	Well, it depends on the campaign, if in your campaign you want illithids, Sharakim or whatever to be innately more powerful than humans, than no you shouldn't let them create a lower LA version, and in the case of more powerful creatures, perhaps you might not even let them be played. On the other hand if in your campaign creatures start out weaker, and develop their abilities over time, than I don't see a problem with letting a player play a weaker version, whom just happens to still be developing his abilities (maybe certain abilities just come with age and/or experience, as is the case with dragons), or is a member of the weaker variety of his kind. On Illithids specifically, I might decide that their are different castes of illithids in my campaign world, and the character was a part of one of the lower, and thus weaker illithid castes. I don't know enough about the Sharakim to say for sure what sort of thing would justify him not having the natural armor. Perhaps something horribly damaged his natural armor, and it never healed properly? He'd have to work this into his character's background, and having been wounded badly enough to lose a creatures natural armor would definitely leave him deformed looking. Or, can Sharakim breed with humans? Perhaps he's not full blooded Sharakim, and that's why he doesn't have the natural armor. Anyhow I don't think a LA of one is that big of a deal, it's LA's over one which are a real pain.
sigma999 07-25-07, 11:20 PM	I believe that yes indeed LA is painful to endure, especially at lower levels. However, the direction that most take in producing new LA+0 races with LA+1 "upgrade" option seems the wrong way to go about it. We need feat-based racial advancement.
asurademon 07-25-07, 11:40 PM	I think something needs to be changed about character creation to allow for low LA races to be played without actually having to deal with the LA. Some sort of prioritizing or point buy system could work. With a prioritizing system you decide what's most important for your character, such as more skills, more feats, a more powerful race etc.... a character with a more powerful race would end up with less skills, and such, Shadowrun managed to make this work (though Shadowrun is a real pain in other ways). Of course, I think that a prioritizing system would probably only work about up to a +1 or maybe +2 LA race. Or there could be bonus points that all players get to spend on their characters at character creation. So, if someone wants to play a more powerful race, they could spend points to gain what their race gets (spell-like abilities, feats, ability bonuses etc...), and those whom don't want to play a more powerful race could just buy more spells, or feats, or skills. But in my experience a +1 LA has not been crippling, however this experience is limited pretty much to an aasimar (don't think I've ever played any other +1 LA race). Aasimar may be slightly on the weak side (well, I've heard some people complain that they are anyhow), but not so much so that I've ever found it problematic, and I've played aasimar more than once. One of my DMs even did something which I found really annoying, and made races with an LA even weaker by not having ability bonuses (or penalties) modify abilities, but only change a race's starting ability cap. even then my aasimar character didn't have trouble keeping up with the other characters. On the other hand I played a half-celestial, and that character really had a hard time keeping up with everyone else, she was so horribly weak. The other creatures with LAs I didn't really play long enough to say whether they were too weak or not.
Neutronium_Dragon 07-26-07, 12:36 AM	In the case of dedicated casters (such as a wizard), yes, LA is really that crippling. Casting progression is everything for them, more so than any other abilities they might have. For other characters it might not be as significant a problem in theory, but there's also the fact that LA is rampantly overcosted on all but a few creatures. LA also has the problem even for these types in that the racial benefits fade in relative significance over the course of levels, whereas the class abilities that you're unable to reach because of it become more and more substantial - you sooner or later reach a point where the character would've been much better off as an LA +0 race as a result.
DrRufio 07-26-07, 01:46 AM	Just use common sense, if a race is doing fine for power in relation to its level adjustment, keep the adjustment, it is there for a reason. As far as Sharakim go, they are very underpowered for their LA. They have a total ability score modifier of nothing, and none of the scores are very extreme (nothing more than a +2 or -2), and the pluses and minuses aren't skewed towards all physical or all mental stats (which makes them less exploitable.) and they have minor light sensitivity. the only thing going for them that most LA0 races don't have is a natural armor bonus. take out the natural armor and they can easily be LA0 without breaking a thing. Most importantly, if you take out natural armor, you are removing the #1 least important aspect of the character for role playing. (and Sharakim are very good for role playing beacuse of their social aspects, unlike that half-dragon that just stands there looking mean.)
skydin 07-26-07, 02:43 AM	i dont even add hit dice to the level adjustment (houseruling) for things like that, and its STILL not worth playing. most of the time (like in the case of a nymph) 7 levels in a good class is > playing a nymph. i.e. ecl needs badly to be reworked. as it is i start charecters with level adjustment a number of levels lower than the average party level equal to their level adjustment, and let them catch up slowly, because all those special abilities arent that great at higher levels anyway.
Vharuck 07-26-07, 03:01 AM	But nobody is willing to rework the LA system. The OP's point, and I think the real problem, is that instead of putting in what would amount to a huge project the people who think the LA system is terrible attempt to change everything but the system to get what they want. To them, it's not just about being an illithid. It's about being an illithid without any negatives whatsoever. Now, an LA of +1 is nothing. Make a wizard a level slow, and I really doubt you'd see any problems ever arise. The problem is that it seems with certain people mechanics take precedent over character.
sigma999 07-26-07, 03:56 AM	But nobody is willing to rework the LA system. aaahahahahahaaaaaa Or is it that every time I make a new thread on this subject, the reply count is dismal and depressing? Given enough positive reinforcement as I post material in progress, I might complete my racial-feat overhaul of the PHB but not for this 'community', no. Past experience proves that these forums care about 3 things: 1 - complaining about RAW 2 - rejecting house rules 3 - optimizing broken characters using RAW then complaining about them If I feel like it, I'll link from here to wherever the racial-feats end up but that's the closest it will get. Maybe it's my recent surgery but everything in this forum just seems.... stale. I'm going back to The Gaming Den for now, tata.