"Sanitize" Drow [Archive] - Wizards Community

"Sanitize" Drow [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
bpkri
07-05-07, 08:28 AM I realise this is a difficult question, but I do need to make some adjustments to the drow background and culture, but I want to do so without toally destroying what has been done.

The baseline:
The drow society is an inherently unstable, dangerous (to itself) construct evolving around treachery and deceit, general "evilness" (especially if you follow DotU), slaves (often in greater number than the Drow itself) and outer pressure.
Even without the outer pressure, there are inner conflicts, which can cause the destruction of a city. Sure, the drow keep themselves in check, because they have to, but I think that every once in a while something would occur, some treachery, some unwanted step, which slips beyond the inner control.

Add outer pressure and maybe spies, and you have like a million ways to make a city undone. My guess is that you don't even need a greater army. You just need to either influence the inner balance by giving the right drow the wrong chance at the wrong moment, or , which IMO is even easier, getting access to the slaves and getting them to revolt while inciting an attack.

Lucky, we have Lolth around to guard her people. Or rather to keep things going so she can toy with them and watch them struggle.

The outer problem:
In my setting (Midnight) there is no spider goddess, no greater power to "fix things", should they go wrong. There are no gods at all except one evil one. And the drow are not following him. He would most likely have them destroyed anyway.
Ther eare great forces deployed everywhere in the world which want to control and / or destroy anything not following their orders.
Drow society as outlined above has no chance to not collapse doring such a struggle and pressure, as the inner balance is already unstable ebough to keep things rolling smoothly.
Add very limited resources and outer forces which know how to deal with the underdark and are much greater in number, and you have a real problem.

The inner problem:
There is one more problem: I don't believe in black and white, and the drow as displayed in DotU seem mostly just that. in parts what is described there is so evil, it sounds childish and ridicolous for me.

The question:
What elements would I need to "touch up", to make the drow able to survive without them being totally unrecognizable?

Possible ways:
The society should still be female-centered. There are houses, struggling for control and influence, but the hatred and fear for each other has turned into a strife for ambition. There is still a strong theme of submission and domination, but the drow are a chosen race (to themselves at least), chosen so much that they survived the abandonment of their goddess, and if that did not destroy them, should they really dare to DESTROY each other? This could keep the ambition in check.
The race as w hole is chosen and sometimes would have to act as one to survive, despite inner differences. The ambition to be better than each other makes them suited for surviving in such a scenario. Their belief of being "better" than all others makes them fascist enough to never display them as really good.

What other ideas could I plan into this? What "ideals" would lead such a society, how would the "rulers" justify their position?

And an even more interesting question: The goddess has been gone for several hundres years. What happens in her return?

Any seemingly random idea might help even if I don't consider it in the end...
cato
07-05-07, 08:40 AM Well actually if you see it more realistically what drow mostly translate in is a normal society (it is dog eat dog out there) where everyone is more frank and aggressive about it.

There is no real good and evil, not even in a society one can be universally called "evil" there are just mainstream and sidelined opinions. The notion that a person is good or evil is frivolous.

What I would agree on is that there is a positive on negative intent on a certain act one might perform, but is far from characterizing one person- although if the average sum of acts are negative people tend to call someone evil. In reality we are all people, and there is a reasoning -personal, or impersonal- about what we do.
Naderion
07-05-07, 08:56 AM On one hand, drow are cool in their awsome evilness. But on the other hand, why haven't they all slaughtered each other at the very beginning of their race?

I think it's because the prominent drow are all nobles and as such are incredible decadent and spoiled. Yes most of them are really nuts, but bellow them, there is still a 95% population of common drow who have to go to work every day to win their bread and without incredible magic at hand, need to go along well with their fellows and cannot just intimidate them all day by threatening to leave nothing but two smldering shoes of them. They still may be brutal in cambat, think their race superior to all others and hate surface elves above all, but they are no fools and not at each others throats all the time.

The same with all other races. Even orcs have villages and families and it's only the chief who sits on his throne before his hut all day and calls for his slaves to anything for them.
bpkri
07-05-07, 09:18 AM IIRC Drow of the Underdark even states somewhere, that the drow are not able to survive, were it not for Lolth pulling the strings,so their decadence goes beyond what is tolerable for such a society. . I might be wrong there, have to see if I can find the actual text.

But as I said, this "inner path to destruction" is only one way. There are plenty of other ways left, evne if you reduce their internal strife to a sane level.
JadeSpider9643
07-05-07, 09:36 AM So if i understand your problem, the ultimate glue of drow society is their goddess lolth, and your running a low diety count campaign including no lolth. Ok that's no biggie, just replace lolth with another great source of power such as a specific type of demon/fiend from the lower planes or some evil extra-planer elite organization. or a simple (and kinda cheezy imo) choice, a nice big local black dragon.

keeps society basicly the same, powerful drow struggling to out-shine eachother to impress their spiritual/political benefactor. And there'd be no fear that the drow would rise together to overthrow the dragon/demon/organization, because almost any drow would be more than willing to turn on his "fellow rebels" for a chance to get in the boss's good graces.
The_Shaman
07-05-07, 09:52 AM I do not think they need a radical makeover, to be honest. I admit I have not read DotU: the notion of drow I've built from Underdark, Salvatore, and a few other sources is less radical. The drow, if anything, are ambitious: they don't worship, backstab, sacrifice, and kill just for fun (okay, it is fun), but because this is the way to gain power in their society. This ambition more than anything else tends to end in their undoing - everyone dreams for power, and tends to be reckless in getting it. Lloth is just the best place to get this power from, as far as any religious drow are concerned. OTOH, the Spider Queen may sometimes have her fun, helping with the natural selection that the dog-eat-dog attitude entails, but her charges are not as brainless as they may seem. Not to mention that, by and large, she normally does not smile at attempts to mess up the entire race or city.

Remember, that bonus to intelligence is there for a reason. A drow is usually smart enough to be in a position of power will realize when something is not in his interests, and having the entire place go bang is usually such.

As for drow aristocracy, they are far from decadent fools. They have had to survive, remember? While they may enjoy lounging around, they have had to train hard and long to be good at what they do: the higher up you are, the more incentive you provide for your rivals to get rid of you. Hence, you can expect drow nobles, if nothing else, to be better at their craft than most others. If they were not, they would not have survived - the rule 0 of drow society is that anything is okay, unless you're caught. The successful ones oppress those underneath them with just as much ruthlessness and skill as those with which they scheme at their rivals and superiors.

So without a deity... Well, they will probably have some religion, although their priesthood will not be even in the same galaxy as the typical drow one in terms of power. Perhaps the "priests" will actually be mages, although it is likely that the two classes are similarly respected. You can expect them to be somewhat more organized, but if you retain the drow ambition, they will be no less backbiting and incestuous than they normally are. They might be a little less bloody about it, but their skill at intrigue will be even greater.

Keeping the gender structure might be based in physical (drow females are iirc usually stronger - hey, it worked for human males), social or even historical basis. Lloth is definitely the main factor in a typical drow society, but even without her the drow could retain a matriarchal society - especially if the females keep control over religion (thus ideology) and, at least to some degree, power.
elondir
07-05-07, 09:55 AM Perhaps you can make Lolth a demonlord like Zuggtmuy or Demogorgon. If I recall that's how she got her start in Queen of the Demonweb Pits. That way she's not divine, but still a powerful presence. You could change her motif so it's not spiders. Eberron drow like scorpions, so there's some precedent. You could probably eliminate the vermin thing altogether if you wanted.
bpkri
07-05-07, 10:21 AM I think the most simple thing is to make Drow itself only "touchable" under dire circumstances. I will do away with Lolth (she will return during the campaign, some time dirung medium or high-level) for now, and not replace her by some demon (which would be kind of pointless, since one of the points is that bigger powers are gone).

I want the drow to be left without such help. Left to their own devices.

By saying "touchable" above I mean, that Drow would regard themselves so precious, that they would not easily dare cast one other into a situation that would spell certain doom. Trial by fire is okay, but there are too few around, the "human resources" are too important to sacrifice them, yet too valuable to leave them alone. They'd drive one another maybe to the point of breaking, but hardly beyond and hardly into death.

Maybe this society even would have dire punishments for overstepping the boundaries. That combined with the need to evolve, to be better, to dominate, could lead to an interesting walk on a tightrope for members of this society, keeping them on edge and distrusting.
The Morninglord
07-05-07, 10:46 AM Actually, I believe Izrador would be aiming for bringing the drow into the fold in Midnight. Ambition and the struggle for power is part of drow culture, and Izrador would probably try to take advantage of this. The drow turning to the dark side would be given power (as legates) and high positions within drow society, channelers would be hunted down as usual, or maybe given power if turned to his cause.

Basically, drow would be the only elven subrace Izrador would try to subvert (at least during this stage of the war) rather than destroy. Wether he would destroy the drow in the end, or not, is up to you.
Seldriss
07-05-07, 11:35 AM You don't need Lolth to use drows in your campaign.
As a matter of fact, drows themselves don't need Lolth.

Drows don't really comme from Gygax or Salvatore's minds, although both developped some interesting concepts about the race and its culture.

Drows, or dark elves, are pictured in some old folklore, in anglo-saxon or norse legends. Sometimes described as a variant of underground diform creatures, like dwarves.
In the norse legends they are called svart alfar (black elves) and are associated to Loki and in some degrees to Hel.
As expected, they are a perverted, corrupted branch of the elven race. They are opposed to the white elves, themselves linked to Balder and other aesir or vanir gods. In many ways they are spirits, more divine than mortal.
They are fond of dark magic and have the particularity to corrupt themselves with it, turning darker and darker with time, to the point that they turn into small dark evil spirits at their death.

As such, they are a good alternative to the classic D&D drow.

(Note : I know drow in plural doesn't take a "s" (drow/drows) but well, i like it this way)
TaiSharShaidar
07-05-07, 12:01 PM I have some thoughts on the response of the Drow being abandoned by their Goddess, for that matter I’ve read the books on it. There is a series of Forgotten Realms novels in which Lloth does abandon the Drow temporarily. In it the leaders of the cities, i.e. the females try to keep it quiet for as long as possible, and when it finally becomes known the Drow society basically disintegrates.

This could actually be a society changing event for the Drow, not unlike the change they underwent when they began worshiping her. I can see an event where the unrestricted chaos of the Drow cities leads to their total destruction, the Drow become outcasts for a time, a few hundred years. They wonder the underdark hunted to the brink of extinction by all their many enemies, afraid even of other Drow, finally one Drow is born that sees a different path to their former glory. With great charisma and nearly unimaginable patience he begins the reunification of the Drow race. Finally after over a century of convincing his kin that their chaotic ways must go, he is able to gather the remaining Drow in the ruins of their greatest city to begin rebuilding.

I could see a switch in alignment, with the idea that the Drow are superior to every race and the idea that the few remaining Drow are untouchable by other Drow, they could be come Lawful Evil. Imagine a disciplined evil society of dark elves that believe that they must prevent the eradication of their species and regain their former dominance. They could quickly become a force to be reckoned with, especially if they gave up the female dominance which was mostly Lloth inforced.
bpkri
07-05-07, 06:16 PM You know.. that last idea... that is intiguing. It just might work.
and this is close to the vision I was trying to phrase in words, but failed to "systematize".

And it is intriguing indeed. As i was hinting, I don't want to be drow serving Izrador. Siding with Orcs, lost to a power they do not want and do not understand - they have been there - I want to change things. And these changes you portray is just what I need. Once unted, now reformed, to ... I think they might still be Neutral evil, but with Lawful tendencies.

Yes, and the vision of the goddess at some point returning (I am uttlerly BREAKING Midnight anyway in my campaign, but who cares? I sure don't!), to find her "playthings" evolved.... that will be an itneresting battle to come. Thank you very much! That was the vision I needed.
Razieliffied
07-06-07, 02:09 AM My own drow are fairly different from the MM-norm that most tend to play with. Most all changes were cosmetic but I also removed Lolth and made them heavily lawful. Following that I began taking inspiration from Dark Eldar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Eldar) from the warhammer universe. My drow are feared for their complete lack of morality and most other forms of mortality or humanisation. I've been tempted to tie them in with 'shadow fey' of late, the kind that crawl out of the shadows and steal human children at night.
bpkri
07-06-07, 03:57 AM I think I will also be tyoing with a different code of morale.

It's not easy to keep the things in check. I won't go so far as making the Drow lawful. I think that might make them too effective in working together, trying to teach the others through training more than through deceit and punishment, but I definitely want to keep the "internal struggle" feature and keep dominance and submission a strong theme.

But in overcoming a domination, not all steps are allowed. Indeed, it should be way more fascinating for these drow to bring someone down to suffering, but not permanent injury or even death, beinging someone down to shame and failure, than utterly destroying someone. The thought behind every such action is split in two parts:

One part: Look what I achieved. Now I hold this position. Wonder and learned how I might have done it.
The other part: You there, who held this position, who dominated me, learn from your mistake. I give you this chance to become stronger and better.

This way, itnernal struggle turns into outright strife and a source of innovation and evolution.

Submission and dominance, punishment and even torture will stay a strong theme. I think these drow would nsee nothign wrong with giving even severe punishment for even minor mistakes. They would be afraid of such happening to them, for they do not want to fail, They would not understand mercy very well, nor would they understand the outrage other socierties might feel with humiliating punishments.

They would be alien and evil, scheming and enjoying it, much like an elaborate game, but a game which serves the purpose of survival, not only of one, but of all who take part in it.
bpkri
07-07-07, 08:43 AM Just to make a clarification: I never mistook any drow for a fool. Jus tthe whole way this society works is not stable. It is a delicate balance of domination and strife in which everything is allowed to get to the top.
Not the way things can work, when outer pressure is applied, and even a small mistake internally can lead to a great catastrophe.

I do not like this outlook in the normal rendering of drow, as we can see it in FR, or in Greyhawk (as displayed in DoTU) and I sure as hell can't need it, when there is no failsafe, and the pressure from outside sources is A LOT stronger.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
bpkri 07-05-07, 08:28 AM	I realise this is a difficult question, but I do need to make some adjustments to the drow background and culture, but I want to do so without toally destroying what has been done. The baseline: The drow society is an inherently unstable, dangerous (to itself) construct evolving around treachery and deceit, general "evilness" (especially if you follow DotU), slaves (often in greater number than the Drow itself) and outer pressure. Even without the outer pressure, there are inner conflicts, which can cause the destruction of a city. Sure, the drow keep themselves in check, because they have to, but I think that every once in a while something would occur, some treachery, some unwanted step, which slips beyond the inner control. Add outer pressure and maybe spies, and you have like a million ways to make a city undone. My guess is that you don't even need a greater army. You just need to either influence the inner balance by giving the right drow the wrong chance at the wrong moment, or , which IMO is even easier, getting access to the slaves and getting them to revolt while inciting an attack. Lucky, we have Lolth around to guard her people. Or rather to keep things going so she can toy with them and watch them struggle. The outer problem: In my setting (Midnight) there is no spider goddess, no greater power to "fix things", should they go wrong. There are no gods at all except one evil one. And the drow are not following him. He would most likely have them destroyed anyway. Ther eare great forces deployed everywhere in the world which want to control and / or destroy anything not following their orders. Drow society as outlined above has no chance to not collapse doring such a struggle and pressure, as the inner balance is already unstable ebough to keep things rolling smoothly. Add very limited resources and outer forces which know how to deal with the underdark and are much greater in number, and you have a real problem. The inner problem: There is one more problem: I don't believe in black and white, and the drow as displayed in DotU seem mostly just that. in parts what is described there is so evil, it sounds childish and ridicolous for me. The question: What elements would I need to "touch up", to make the drow able to survive without them being totally unrecognizable? Possible ways: The society should still be female-centered. There are houses, struggling for control and influence, but the hatred and fear for each other has turned into a strife for ambition. There is still a strong theme of submission and domination, but the drow are a chosen race (to themselves at least), chosen so much that they survived the abandonment of their goddess, and if that did not destroy them, should they really dare to DESTROY each other? This could keep the ambition in check. The race as w hole is chosen and sometimes would have to act as one to survive, despite inner differences. The ambition to be better than each other makes them suited for surviving in such a scenario. Their belief of being "better" than all others makes them fascist enough to never display them as really good. What other ideas could I plan into this? What "ideals" would lead such a society, how would the "rulers" justify their position? And an even more interesting question: The goddess has been gone for several hundres years. What happens in her return? Any seemingly random idea might help even if I don't consider it in the end...
cato 07-05-07, 08:40 AM	Well actually if you see it more realistically what drow mostly translate in is a normal society (it is dog eat dog out there) where everyone is more frank and aggressive about it. There is no real good and evil, not even in a society one can be universally called "evil" there are just mainstream and sidelined opinions. The notion that a person is good or evil is frivolous. What I would agree on is that there is a positive on negative intent on a certain act one might perform, but is far from characterizing one person- although if the average sum of acts are negative people tend to call someone evil. In reality we are all people, and there is a reasoning -personal, or impersonal- about what we do.
Naderion 07-05-07, 08:56 AM	On one hand, drow are cool in their awsome evilness. But on the other hand, why haven't they all slaughtered each other at the very beginning of their race? I think it's because the prominent drow are all nobles and as such are incredible decadent and spoiled. Yes most of them are really nuts, but bellow them, there is still a 95% population of common drow who have to go to work every day to win their bread and without incredible magic at hand, need to go along well with their fellows and cannot just intimidate them all day by threatening to leave nothing but two smldering shoes of them. They still may be brutal in cambat, think their race superior to all others and hate surface elves above all, but they are no fools and not at each others throats all the time. The same with all other races. Even orcs have villages and families and it's only the chief who sits on his throne before his hut all day and calls for his slaves to anything for them.
bpkri 07-05-07, 09:18 AM	IIRC Drow of the Underdark even states somewhere, that the drow are not able to survive, were it not for Lolth pulling the strings,so their decadence goes beyond what is tolerable for such a society. . I might be wrong there, have to see if I can find the actual text. But as I said, this "inner path to destruction" is only one way. There are plenty of other ways left, evne if you reduce their internal strife to a sane level.
JadeSpider9643 07-05-07, 09:36 AM	So if i understand your problem, the ultimate glue of drow society is their goddess lolth, and your running a low diety count campaign including no lolth. Ok that's no biggie, just replace lolth with another great source of power such as a specific type of demon/fiend from the lower planes or some evil extra-planer elite organization. or a simple (and kinda cheezy imo) choice, a nice big local black dragon. keeps society basicly the same, powerful drow struggling to out-shine eachother to impress their spiritual/political benefactor. And there'd be no fear that the drow would rise together to overthrow the dragon/demon/organization, because almost any drow would be more than willing to turn on his "fellow rebels" for a chance to get in the boss's good graces.
The_Shaman 07-05-07, 09:52 AM	I do not think they need a radical makeover, to be honest. I admit I have not read DotU: the notion of drow I've built from Underdark, Salvatore, and a few other sources is less radical. The drow, if anything, are ambitious: they don't worship, backstab, sacrifice, and kill just for fun (okay, it is fun), but because this is the way to gain power in their society. This ambition more than anything else tends to end in their undoing - everyone dreams for power, and tends to be reckless in getting it. Lloth is just the best place to get this power from, as far as any religious drow are concerned. OTOH, the Spider Queen may sometimes have her fun, helping with the natural selection that the dog-eat-dog attitude entails, but her charges are not as brainless as they may seem. Not to mention that, by and large, she normally does not smile at attempts to mess up the entire race or city. Remember, that bonus to intelligence is there for a reason. A drow is usually smart enough to be in a position of power will realize when something is not in his interests, and having the entire place go bang is usually such. As for drow aristocracy, they are far from decadent fools. They have had to survive, remember? While they may enjoy lounging around, they have had to train hard and long to be good at what they do: the higher up you are, the more incentive you provide for your rivals to get rid of you. Hence, you can expect drow nobles, if nothing else, to be better at their craft than most others. If they were not, they would not have survived - the rule 0 of drow society is that anything is okay, unless you're caught. The successful ones oppress those underneath them with just as much ruthlessness and skill as those with which they scheme at their rivals and superiors. So without a deity... Well, they will probably have some religion, although their priesthood will not be even in the same galaxy as the typical drow one in terms of power. Perhaps the "priests" will actually be mages, although it is likely that the two classes are similarly respected. You can expect them to be somewhat more organized, but if you retain the drow ambition, they will be no less backbiting and incestuous than they normally are. They might be a little less bloody about it, but their skill at intrigue will be even greater. Keeping the gender structure might be based in physical (drow females are iirc usually stronger - hey, it worked for human males), social or even historical basis. Lloth is definitely the main factor in a typical drow society, but even without her the drow could retain a matriarchal society - especially if the females keep control over religion (thus ideology) and, at least to some degree, power.
elondir 07-05-07, 09:55 AM	Perhaps you can make Lolth a demonlord like Zuggtmuy or Demogorgon. If I recall that's how she got her start in Queen of the Demonweb Pits. That way she's not divine, but still a powerful presence. You could change her motif so it's not spiders. Eberron drow like scorpions, so there's some precedent. You could probably eliminate the vermin thing altogether if you wanted.
bpkri 07-05-07, 10:21 AM	I think the most simple thing is to make Drow itself only "touchable" under dire circumstances. I will do away with Lolth (she will return during the campaign, some time dirung medium or high-level) for now, and not replace her by some demon (which would be kind of pointless, since one of the points is that bigger powers are gone). I want the drow to be left without such help. Left to their own devices. By saying "touchable" above I mean, that Drow would regard themselves so precious, that they would not easily dare cast one other into a situation that would spell certain doom. Trial by fire is okay, but there are too few around, the "human resources" are too important to sacrifice them, yet too valuable to leave them alone. They'd drive one another maybe to the point of breaking, but hardly beyond and hardly into death. Maybe this society even would have dire punishments for overstepping the boundaries. That combined with the need to evolve, to be better, to dominate, could lead to an interesting walk on a tightrope for members of this society, keeping them on edge and distrusting.
The Morninglord 07-05-07, 10:46 AM	Actually, I believe Izrador would be aiming for bringing the drow into the fold in Midnight. Ambition and the struggle for power is part of drow culture, and Izrador would probably try to take advantage of this. The drow turning to the dark side would be given power (as legates) and high positions within drow society, channelers would be hunted down as usual, or maybe given power if turned to his cause. Basically, drow would be the only elven subrace Izrador would try to subvert (at least during this stage of the war) rather than destroy. Wether he would destroy the drow in the end, or not, is up to you.
Seldriss 07-05-07, 11:35 AM	You don't need Lolth to use drows in your campaign. As a matter of fact, drows themselves don't need Lolth. Drows don't really comme from Gygax or Salvatore's minds, although both developped some interesting concepts about the race and its culture. Drows, or dark elves, are pictured in some old folklore, in anglo-saxon or norse legends. Sometimes described as a variant of underground diform creatures, like dwarves. In the norse legends they are called svart alfar (black elves) and are associated to Loki and in some degrees to Hel. As expected, they are a perverted, corrupted branch of the elven race. They are opposed to the white elves, themselves linked to Balder and other aesir or vanir gods. In many ways they are spirits, more divine than mortal. They are fond of dark magic and have the particularity to corrupt themselves with it, turning darker and darker with time, to the point that they turn into small dark evil spirits at their death. As such, they are a good alternative to the classic D&D drow. (Note : I know drow in plural doesn't take a "s" (drow/drows) but well, i like it this way)
TaiSharShaidar 07-05-07, 12:01 PM	I have some thoughts on the response of the Drow being abandoned by their Goddess, for that matter I’ve read the books on it. There is a series of Forgotten Realms novels in which Lloth does abandon the Drow temporarily. In it the leaders of the cities, i.e. the females try to keep it quiet for as long as possible, and when it finally becomes known the Drow society basically disintegrates. This could actually be a society changing event for the Drow, not unlike the change they underwent when they began worshiping her. I can see an event where the unrestricted chaos of the Drow cities leads to their total destruction, the Drow become outcasts for a time, a few hundred years. They wonder the underdark hunted to the brink of extinction by all their many enemies, afraid even of other Drow, finally one Drow is born that sees a different path to their former glory. With great charisma and nearly unimaginable patience he begins the reunification of the Drow race. Finally after over a century of convincing his kin that their chaotic ways must go, he is able to gather the remaining Drow in the ruins of their greatest city to begin rebuilding. I could see a switch in alignment, with the idea that the Drow are superior to every race and the idea that the few remaining Drow are untouchable by other Drow, they could be come Lawful Evil. Imagine a disciplined evil society of dark elves that believe that they must prevent the eradication of their species and regain their former dominance. They could quickly become a force to be reckoned with, especially if they gave up the female dominance which was mostly Lloth inforced.
bpkri 07-05-07, 06:16 PM	You know.. that last idea... that is intiguing. It just might work. and this is close to the vision I was trying to phrase in words, but failed to "systematize". And it is intriguing indeed. As i was hinting, I don't want to be drow serving Izrador. Siding with Orcs, lost to a power they do not want and do not understand - they have been there - I want to change things. And these changes you portray is just what I need. Once unted, now reformed, to ... I think they might still be Neutral evil, but with Lawful tendencies. Yes, and the vision of the goddess at some point returning (I am uttlerly BREAKING Midnight anyway in my campaign, but who cares? I sure don't!), to find her "playthings" evolved.... that will be an itneresting battle to come. Thank you very much! That was the vision I needed.
Razieliffied 07-06-07, 02:09 AM	My own drow are fairly different from the MM-norm that most tend to play with. Most all changes were cosmetic but I also removed Lolth and made them heavily lawful. Following that I began taking inspiration from Dark Eldar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Eldar) from the warhammer universe. My drow are feared for their complete lack of morality and most other forms of mortality or humanisation. I've been tempted to tie them in with 'shadow fey' of late, the kind that crawl out of the shadows and steal human children at night.
bpkri 07-06-07, 03:57 AM	I think I will also be tyoing with a different code of morale. It's not easy to keep the things in check. I won't go so far as making the Drow lawful. I think that might make them too effective in working together, trying to teach the others through training more than through deceit and punishment, but I definitely want to keep the "internal struggle" feature and keep dominance and submission a strong theme. But in overcoming a domination, not all steps are allowed. Indeed, it should be way more fascinating for these drow to bring someone down to suffering, but not permanent injury or even death, beinging someone down to shame and failure, than utterly destroying someone. The thought behind every such action is split in two parts: One part: Look what I achieved. Now I hold this position. Wonder and learned how I might have done it. The other part: You there, who held this position, who dominated me, learn from your mistake. I give you this chance to become stronger and better. This way, itnernal struggle turns into outright strife and a source of innovation and evolution. Submission and dominance, punishment and even torture will stay a strong theme. I think these drow would nsee nothign wrong with giving even severe punishment for even minor mistakes. They would be afraid of such happening to them, for they do not want to fail, They would not understand mercy very well, nor would they understand the outrage other socierties might feel with humiliating punishments. They would be alien and evil, scheming and enjoying it, much like an elaborate game, but a game which serves the purpose of survival, not only of one, but of all who take part in it.
bpkri 07-07-07, 08:43 AM	Just to make a clarification: I never mistook any drow for a fool. Jus tthe whole way this society works is not stable. It is a delicate balance of domination and strife in which everything is allowed to get to the top. Not the way things can work, when outer pressure is applied, and even a small mistake internally can lead to a great catastrophe. I do not like this outlook in the normal rendering of drow, as we can see it in FR, or in Greyhawk (as displayed in DoTU) and I sure as hell can't need it, when there is no failsafe, and the pressure from outside sources is A LOT stronger.