Another Worforged Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Another Worforged Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Despot_Arrow
09-09-07, 11:00 PM What would the Level Adjustment of a Warforged if they were a full Construct? +1 or +2?
ZapRowsdower
09-09-07, 11:13 PM What would the Level Adjustment of a Warforged if they were a full Construct? +1 or +2?

An all construct warforged would be pretty awesome most of the time

No Constitution score. !!!!
Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).
Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, and necromancy effects.
Not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability damage, ability drain, fatigue, exhaustion, or energy drain.
Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects, or is harmless).
Because its body is a mass of unliving matter, a construct is hard to destroy. It gains bonus hit points based on size(note: +20 hp for a medium construct), as shown on the table.

but terrible some of the time

Not at risk of death from massive damage. Immediately destroyed when reduced to 0 hit points or less.
Since it was never alive, a construct cannot be raised or resurrected.

These are some really weird abilities for a player character, I would say +3 LA or more, but I would think twice before including a 100% construct race.
Neutronium_Dragon
09-10-07, 12:39 AM In general it's better for a warforged character to pursue the Warforged Juggernaut prestige class rather than try to alter the base abilities if he wants to be more construct-like. The Juggernaut basically transforms him into a full construct, but without some of the downsides (and with warforged-specific abilities added into the mix).
Despot_Arrow
09-10-07, 10:38 AM This is not for a player character option. I am DMing and the evil army is made of construct warriors. I thought it would easy enough to just use the Warforged as the template for the Warriors. But I do not want them to be Living Construct.

What should I do with the CON bonus? Change it to STR or just remove it all together?

These are some really weird abilities for a player character, I would say +3 LA or more, but I would think twice before including a 100% construct race.
Is +3 LA a little high, since the Warforged Jugg. prestige class is just a 5 levels and you get more (Like 5 HD). But on the other hand, setting LA is just so wishy washy. What if you made them 2 or 3 HD with a +0 LA?
RobbyPants
09-10-07, 10:52 AM This is not for a player character option. I am DMing and the evil army is made of construct warriors. I thought it would easy enough to just use the Warforged as the template for the Warriors. But I do not want them to be Living Construct.
Do they need to be intelligent, or are you just looking for a low CR construct for the PCs to fight?

If it's the latter, check out the dread guard (I think that's their name :P) in the MM2. They're pretty simple and thus easy to convert to 3.5 (in fact, the might not need any conversion). From what I remember, they're about a CR 2 with 4 HD. They're effectively an animated suit of banded mail that runs around with a sword and shield. They'd make great foot soiliders for a construct army.

If they do need to be intelligent, consider just altering the Dread Guard by adding in an Intelligence score, and possibly allowing it to take class levels.
Despot_Arrow
09-10-07, 11:46 AM Do they need to be intelligent, or are you just looking for a low CR construct for the PCs to fight?

If it's the latter, check out the dread guard (I think that's their name :P) in the MM2. They're pretty simple and thus easy to convert to 3.5 (in fact, the might not need any conversion). From what I remember, they're about a CR 2 with 4 HD. They're effectively an animated suit of banded mail that runs around with a sword and shield. They'd make great foot soiliders for a construct army.

If they do need to be intelligent, consider just altering the Dread Guard by adding in an Intelligence score, and possibly allowing it to take class levels.

Thanks I will check them out when I get off work. I will need them to have INT. But that is simple enough.
PhaedrusXY
09-10-07, 11:54 AM I don't know if they'd even deserve a LA. If I were given this option with my Warforged PC, I don't think I would even take it. They already have a large number of those benefits, and the drawbacks they'd gain wouldn't be worth the ones they'd get, IMO.

Here is what they have right now if you add the feat Improved Fortification:
• Immune to Critical Hits and Sneak Attacks, but cannot be healed by Conj(healing) spells.
• Natural weapons provide a 1d4 Slam attack.
• Immune to Poison, Sleep, Paralysis, Disease, Nausea, Fatigue, Exhaustion, Sickening, and Energy Drain.
• Does not Eat, Sleep, or Breath.
• Does not naturally heal.
• At 0 hp, is Disabled (as usual). From –1 to –9 hp, is Inert (i.e., Unconscious, but stable)
• Can be ‘healed’ by a Craft check that takes 8 hours. and they still have a Con score!

The main ones they're missing are the immunity to mind-affecting spells, which can be gained via Mind Blank, immunity to necromancy (which they partially have), and immunity to anything requiring a Fort save unless it affects objects.

I guess it might be worth a +1 LA, since they get the bonus hit points. I don't think it would be worth more. The necropolitan template gives the undead type, but doesn't have a LA at all. It does cost a level and some XP, though.
EvilVegan
09-10-07, 12:02 PM Problem: Constructs have bad BAB and all bad saves. - If you want warriors they have to be double the hit die of a suitably attacky living creature, this is the same problem you'd have with undead. That means that beefy constructs and undead are usually double the hit dice of their CR. Just keep that in mind.

Personally I'd just use skeleton or warforged stats and modify them. There is no metagame reason the creatures need to be fully statted, as long as they aren't more/less of a challenge of the base creature you can change the flavor however you want.

In my current campaign there are "zerglings" but I use the fleshraker's stats (MM3) subtract the poisons and add on the hive mind abilities. (Eventually they'll have the poison, more HD, better feats, and eventually energy resistance and regeneration, but this is all just advancement and templating on the original fleshraker).

There are also remnants of an ancient society that made use of automaton that are still functional. They're like medium sized golems. I just gave them 100 hit points (max hp campaign) and +10 to hit 20 AC and DR 5/adamantine and a d8+4 slam attack. I didn't have anything else statted about them (winged the saves/resistances). I put them at about CR 5. Completely made up on the spot.
PhaedrusXY
09-10-07, 12:09 PM Problem: Constructs have bad BAB and all bad saves. Only for their racial hit dice. Warforged don't have racial hit dice. They use their class saves and BAB.
EvilVegan
09-10-07, 12:46 PM Yea, that was more for his "construct warriors" which I assumed would have racial hit dice.

It was more "make sure they have class levels".

But I suck at talking.

:weep:
PhaedrusXY
09-10-07, 12:51 PM If you just want full construct warriors that are intelligent without having to do the work making one up, the Maug (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maug)in the Fiend Folio fits the bill. I think they have 2 racial hit dice and a +1 LA, but they are large sized and have decent racial bonuses to ability scores. They might be a decent guide to gauging the LA for what you're proposing, also.
Captain_Kobold
09-11-07, 09:35 PM If its not for use as a PC character, LA is irrelevant.
To get a rough working CR, perhaps compare to skeletons and Zombies, or medium sized constructs as some of the other posters have suggested.

If needs be, throw a group of them at the PCs, and decide what their CR was after you see how much trouble the PCs had in dealing with them.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Despot_Arrow 09-09-07, 11:00 PM	What would the Level Adjustment of a Warforged if they were a full Construct? +1 or +2?
ZapRowsdower 09-09-07, 11:13 PM	What would the Level Adjustment of a Warforged if they were a full Construct? +1 or +2? An all construct warforged would be pretty awesome most of the time No Constitution score. !!!! Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects). Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, and necromancy effects. Not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability damage, ability drain, fatigue, exhaustion, or energy drain. Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects, or is harmless). Because its body is a mass of unliving matter, a construct is hard to destroy. It gains bonus hit points based on size(note: +20 hp for a medium construct), as shown on the table. but terrible some of the time Not at risk of death from massive damage. Immediately destroyed when reduced to 0 hit points or less. Since it was never alive, a construct cannot be raised or resurrected. These are some really weird abilities for a player character, I would say +3 LA or more, but I would think twice before including a 100% construct race.
Neutronium_Dragon 09-10-07, 12:39 AM	In general it's better for a warforged character to pursue the Warforged Juggernaut prestige class rather than try to alter the base abilities if he wants to be more construct-like. The Juggernaut basically transforms him into a full construct, but without some of the downsides (and with warforged-specific abilities added into the mix).
Despot_Arrow 09-10-07, 10:38 AM	This is not for a player character option. I am DMing and the evil army is made of construct warriors. I thought it would easy enough to just use the Warforged as the template for the Warriors. But I do not want them to be Living Construct. What should I do with the CON bonus? Change it to STR or just remove it all together? These are some really weird abilities for a player character, I would say +3 LA or more, but I would think twice before including a 100% construct race. Is +3 LA a little high, since the Warforged Jugg. prestige class is just a 5 levels and you get more (Like 5 HD). But on the other hand, setting LA is just so wishy washy. What if you made them 2 or 3 HD with a +0 LA?
RobbyPants 09-10-07, 10:52 AM	This is not for a player character option. I am DMing and the evil army is made of construct warriors. I thought it would easy enough to just use the Warforged as the template for the Warriors. But I do not want them to be Living Construct. Do they need to be intelligent, or are you just looking for a low CR construct for the PCs to fight? If it's the latter, check out the dread guard (I think that's their name :P) in the MM2. They're pretty simple and thus easy to convert to 3.5 (in fact, the might not need any conversion). From what I remember, they're about a CR 2 with 4 HD. They're effectively an animated suit of banded mail that runs around with a sword and shield. They'd make great foot soiliders for a construct army. If they do need to be intelligent, consider just altering the Dread Guard by adding in an Intelligence score, and possibly allowing it to take class levels.
Despot_Arrow 09-10-07, 11:46 AM	Do they need to be intelligent, or are you just looking for a low CR construct for the PCs to fight? If it's the latter, check out the dread guard (I think that's their name :P) in the MM2. They're pretty simple and thus easy to convert to 3.5 (in fact, the might not need any conversion). From what I remember, they're about a CR 2 with 4 HD. They're effectively an animated suit of banded mail that runs around with a sword and shield. They'd make great foot soiliders for a construct army. If they do need to be intelligent, consider just altering the Dread Guard by adding in an Intelligence score, and possibly allowing it to take class levels. Thanks I will check them out when I get off work. I will need them to have INT. But that is simple enough.
PhaedrusXY 09-10-07, 11:54 AM	I don't know if they'd even deserve a LA. If I were given this option with my Warforged PC, I don't think I would even take it. They already have a large number of those benefits, and the drawbacks they'd gain wouldn't be worth the ones they'd get, IMO. Here is what they have right now if you add the feat Improved Fortification: • Immune to Critical Hits and Sneak Attacks, but cannot be healed by Conj(healing) spells. • Natural weapons provide a 1d4 Slam attack. • Immune to Poison, Sleep, Paralysis, Disease, Nausea, Fatigue, Exhaustion, Sickening, and Energy Drain. • Does not Eat, Sleep, or Breath. • Does not naturally heal. • At 0 hp, is Disabled (as usual). From –1 to –9 hp, is Inert (i.e., Unconscious, but stable) • Can be ‘healed’ by a Craft check that takes 8 hours. and they still have a Con score! The main ones they're missing are the immunity to mind-affecting spells, which can be gained via Mind Blank, immunity to necromancy (which they partially have), and immunity to anything requiring a Fort save unless it affects objects. I guess it might be worth a +1 LA, since they get the bonus hit points. I don't think it would be worth more. The necropolitan template gives the undead type, but doesn't have a LA at all. It does cost a level and some XP, though.
EvilVegan 09-10-07, 12:02 PM	Problem: Constructs have bad BAB and all bad saves. - If you want warriors they have to be double the hit die of a suitably attacky living creature, this is the same problem you'd have with undead. That means that beefy constructs and undead are usually double the hit dice of their CR. Just keep that in mind. Personally I'd just use skeleton or warforged stats and modify them. There is no metagame reason the creatures need to be fully statted, as long as they aren't more/less of a challenge of the base creature you can change the flavor however you want. In my current campaign there are "zerglings" but I use the fleshraker's stats (MM3) subtract the poisons and add on the hive mind abilities. (Eventually they'll have the poison, more HD, better feats, and eventually energy resistance and regeneration, but this is all just advancement and templating on the original fleshraker). There are also remnants of an ancient society that made use of automaton that are still functional. They're like medium sized golems. I just gave them 100 hit points (max hp campaign) and +10 to hit 20 AC and DR 5/adamantine and a d8+4 slam attack. I didn't have anything else statted about them (winged the saves/resistances). I put them at about CR 5. Completely made up on the spot.
PhaedrusXY 09-10-07, 12:09 PM	Problem: Constructs have bad BAB and all bad saves. Only for their racial hit dice. Warforged don't have racial hit dice. They use their class saves and BAB.
EvilVegan 09-10-07, 12:46 PM	Yea, that was more for his "construct warriors" which I assumed would have racial hit dice. It was more "make sure they have class levels". But I suck at talking. :weep:
PhaedrusXY 09-10-07, 12:51 PM	If you just want full construct warriors that are intelligent without having to do the work making one up, the Maug (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maug)in the Fiend Folio fits the bill. I think they have 2 racial hit dice and a +1 LA, but they are large sized and have decent racial bonuses to ability scores. They might be a decent guide to gauging the LA for what you're proposing, also.
Captain_Kobold 09-11-07, 09:35 PM	If its not for use as a PC character, LA is irrelevant. To get a rough working CR, perhaps compare to skeletons and Zombies, or medium sized constructs as some of the other posters have suggested. If needs be, throw a group of them at the PCs, and decide what their CR was after you see how much trouble the PCs had in dealing with them.