Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Devigod 01-15-08, 04:26 PM	Hey, I made this creature using the tauric creature template and a goblin as the base humanoid and a medium monsterous spider as the base creature. According to the SRD errata for MM2, the tauric template gives a Level adjustment of that of the base humanoid +3, but this seems off to me... so I am checking if anyone at the boards have any suggestions for LA adjustment. Arachnog Medium Monsterous Humanoid (Goblinoid) Hit Dice: 3d8 + 3 Hp (16 hp) Initiative: +7 Speed: 40 feet, 20 feet (climb) Armor Class: 17 (+1 natural, +3 dex, +2 leather armor, +1 light shield) Touch 13, Flat-footed 14 Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+3 Attack: Sickle +6 melee (1d6) or longspear +3 melee (1d8/x3) or javelin +6 ranged (1d6) Full attack: Sickle +6 melee (1d6) or longspear +3 melee (1d8/x3) or javelin +6 ranged (1d6) Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: None Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft, Tremorsense 60 ft. Saves: Fort +4, Ref +6, Will +1 Abilities: Str 11, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 8 Skills: Climb +10, hide +9, jump +12, listen +2, move silently +9, spot +14 Feats: Weapon Finesse, Improved Initiative Level Adjustment: +3Arachnog Medium Monsterous Humanoid (Goblinoid) Hit Dice: 3d8 + 6 Hp (23 hp) Initiative: +9 Speed: 40 feet, 20 feet (climb) Armor Class: 21 (+1 natural, +5 dex, +4 studded leather armor, +1 light shield) Touch 15, Flat-footed 16 Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+3 Attack: +1 Sickle +9 melee (1d6+3) or longspear +6 melee (1d8+2/x3) or javelin +9 ranged (1d6+2) Full attack: +1 Sickle +9 melee (1d6+3) or longspear +6 melee (1d8+2/x3) or javelin +9 ranged (1d6+2) Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: None Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft, Tremorsense 60 ft. Saves: Fort +6, Ref +8, Will +0 Abilities: Str 14, Dex 21, Con 15, Int 12, Wis 8, Cha 8 Skills: Climb +12 hide +11, jump +14, listen +7, move silently +11, spot +13 Feats: Weapon Finesse, Improved Initiative Level Adjustment: +3 Equipment: +1 Sickle, +1 studded leather armor, masterwork longspear, x3 masterwork javelinsArachnogs as characters Medium Monstrous Humanoid 3d8 30 feet, climb 20 feet +1 natural armor +10 base land speed (hunters) or web 8/day (webspinners) Tremorsense 60 feet Darkvision 60 feet +4 hide, move silently, spot +8 climb (can take 10, Str or Dex) +10 jump, +8 spot (hunters) or +8 hide, move silently on webs (webspinners) +6 Dexterity, +2 Constitution, -2 Charisma HD give it +3 BAB, fortitude +3, reflex +3, will +1 6 x 2+ int modifier Climb, hide, jump, spot, listen, move silently +2 Level adjustment Edit 1: Okay, based on feedback, it looks like +2 is the winner, but to further balance it, I'm going to remove weapon finesse as a bonus feat, which seems a bit off in the first place even though spiders get it. They still have it, but that's only from hit dice. I've renamed them to Evil_DM-Mk3's suggestion: Arachnog Edit 2: 1/16/08 After applying elite scores equivalent of PC characters, I'm back at +3. Edit 3: 1/18/08 Woohoo, back at +2. I'm flipping like a pancake.
Evil DM Mk3 01-15-08, 04:49 PM	Aracnog(s)? Mind you spidergoblin is not actually a bad name really.
Balthanon 01-15-08, 10:09 PM	You are on the right path by reviewing the level adjustment on a case by case basis with tauric-- it's very easy to abuse open ended templates like this. +1 is probably a bit too much on the low side-- these get a few significant things that would give level adjustments: - tremorsense - unbalanced stats and natural armor - large skill bonuses and bonus feat - climb speed and special ability Combined with the fact that monstrous humanoid dice are actually pretty decent-- full base attack bonus, decent hit die, and two good saves-- the hit dice don't offset that much. I would guess the lowest you're going to get to go is probably +2 and +3 is more likely. +4 is almost certainly too high, but I would do some acid testing at a few levels with +2 and +3 for the level adjustment to find the right mark. Just make sure you're playing to the strengths of the new creature when you're doing the tests and not just throwing on random levels.
Silverthumb 01-16-08, 09:14 AM	It threw a wrench at me! Molybendium Magnet GO!
Tema69 01-16-08, 09:28 AM	This is great. I'd say LA+2, but I don't know much about balancing. As for the name, I'll suggest a few off the top of my head: - Spidergoblin (I agree with Mk3, it sounds cool - and that's what it is) - Arachlin (Arachnid + Goblin) - Gobnid (Goblin + 'nid) - Gorachlid/Gorachnid (eh.) - Arachnoid/Arachlinoid (Arachnid + Goblinoid)
Devigod 01-16-08, 04:45 PM	Okay, thanks for the suggestions. Thank you too for the names. +2 seems right to me based on the feedback and comparisons to the NPC rogue and ranger. Of course, I still plan to test this myself... soon. At the moment, it is exam week, I know, my freaking high school shoulda done it before break, but what're you gonna do about it? I plan to test them within the week though and post my results, if anybody else has ideas, suggestions or would like to also playtest them, they can do that also. Any ideas for tests would be cool too. For now here are my conclusions: Compared to an NPC rogue of 5th level, they have: 9 less HP, 18 less skill points (including racial bonuses) one more to hit with finesse weapons, about even saves, and no sneak attack in return for spider abilities. This is with a nonelite array compared to an NPC elite array, I'll post a second monster using an elite array in the first post on this thread. Compared to an NPC ranger of 5th level, they have: 15 less HP, 2 more skill points (including racial bonuses), 2 less to hit with finesse weapons, slightly worse saves and one less animal companion and such class features in return for spider features.Okay, if you read post one, this is after making an elite array monster. Conclusion: Recheck vs. NPCs.
Devigod 01-18-08, 10:20 PM	Okay, comparison two. For those who aren't sure what's going on, I'm comparing my race to the NPC rogue and ranger in the DMG to figure out which LA would be most appropriate. So far, I am testing both 5th and 6th level characters to assess the most appropriate LA. I've been flopping between +2 and +3 LA. LA (level adjustment) is added to their racial hit die (3d8) to come up with their effective character level, ECL. Comparing to 5th and 6th level characters helps to determine if they are closer to a +2 or 3 LA to gain a 5 or 6 ECL. Ranger: The slightly more fighting oriented role of a skill monkey is one of the classes that would be played most (or something like it) Hit Points: The arachnog has about 8 less hit points than the NPC ranger at 5th level. Even enough, it's expected of monsters with LA. Skills: The NPC ranger has 48 total skill points at 6th level, the arachnog has about 56, not counting ability modifiers. A little better, in return for a lower hp. BAB and Chance to Hit: In melee, a ranger has about a +8, in ranged, a +9. If the ranger used finesse as well, they would be dead even. A little off for a non-all fighter, of course, the ranger has a second attack around the corner, next level. Saves: Rangers have one point lower in fortitude and reflex, they compensate for a two point higher will. Equally matched. AC: The ranger has an AC 4 lower than that of the arachnog, as they have Dex bonuses and natural armor, despite this difference, arachnogs still have less hp. Other stuff: Arachnogs have an upper hand when it comes to special abilities, they are packaged with Darkvision and Tremorsense 60 feet. And thats about it. It could be feasible to let put it at a +2 LA compared to ranger. In skills, they excel, but lack the hit points.Ranger: The slightly more fighting oriented role of a skill monkey is one of the classes that would be played most (or something like it) Hit Points: The arachnog has about 14 less hit points than the NPC ranger at 6th level. Closer to the HP of a sorcerer. Skills: The NPC ranger has 54 total skill points at 6th level, the arachnog has about 56, not counting ability modifiers. Fairly even. BAB and Chance to Hit: In melee, a ranger has about a +9, in ranged, a +10. A ranger also has two attacks at this level. A arachnog has about a +9 with finesseable and ranged weapons, close to even in combat. Saves: Rangers have a slightly better will save, otherwise, they're even. AC: The ranger has an AC 4 lower than that of the arachnog, as they have Dex bonuses and natural armor, despite this difference, arachnogs still have significantly less hp. Other stuff: Arachnogs have an upper hand when it comes to special abilities, they are packaged with Darkvision and Tremorsense 60 feet. And thats about it. A ranger packs more attacks, hp and has class features, of course, but the arachnog are close to even in skills and have a better AC. It's looking closer to LA +2 to me.Rogue: Sneaky little buggers, rogues are the arachnog's favored class. Better in damage and subterfuge, but worse in straight up combat than the ranger, rogues are... a staple. Hit Points: Rogues have about 2 more hp at 5th level. Close enough. Skills: Rogues have about 80 skill points at 5th level, 24 more than the monster. Do the math. Okay, take a note of this... BAB and Chance to Hit: Compared to 3d8 monstrous humanoid hit dice, hey actually have the same Base attack bonus. Rogues have a 4 lower chance to hit with melee, but a 2 lower chance in ranged. They, of course, gain sneak attacks too, which make them devastating in combat. Okay, this looks good. Saves: Rogues are struck with worse saves, their superior skill points make up for this. AC: Rogues have about the same AC as rangers, see ranger 5 or 6. They are closer in hp to arachnogs though. Arachnogs are definitely better at combat. [B]Other stuff: Well, previously mentioned, 'nogs have DV and Tremorsense. Rogues have sneak attack and the ability to find traps. Overall, the two look okay in terms of 5th level balance. I may just be pulling for 5 though. Rogue: Sneaky little buggers, rogues are the arachnog's favored class. Better in damage and subterfuge, but worse in straight up combat than the ranger, rogues are... a staple. Yada yada yada, it's all in level 5. Hit Points: Rogues have 6 more hp at 6th level. It's significant, but not very significant. Skills: Rogues have a whopping 90 skill points at 5th level, 34 more than the monster. This may completely even Tremorsense on it's own. BAB and Chance to Hit: If the rogue took weapon finesse, he's have just one lower to hit than the 'nog. Once again, rogues have sneak attack, they are good combatants. Saves: Rogues at 6th level are in the same position as a ranger at 5th. Dead even with 'nogs. Two less in fortitude and two more in will. AC: Same AC as above, 17, compared to the 'nogs 21, rogues don't want to be in the center of the fighting. They do have vastly superior skill points though. [B]Other stuff: Rogues have many more skill points than 'nogs. With even saves, and a lower BAB and AC, rogues also have a hit point advantage. I'm really not sure whether 5 or 6 would be better here. There are my tests and comments. Something to tip the scales is needed. I'm obviously leaning toward a lower LA, anyone's opinion and advice will be appreciated, as are the comments already made.
Balthanon 01-18-08, 11:08 PM	There are my tests and comments. Something to tip the scales is needed. I'm obviously leaning toward a lower LA, anyone's opinion and advice will be appreciated, as are the comments already made. You probably want to try running the test at higher levels for some additional data as well-- you're comparing these versus a standard arachnog. What happens when you add 4 or 5 levels to the spidergoblin and compare it to a 10th level character? 15th? Those are important considerations as well and could help you to make your decision since the existing data wasn't enough.
AtsuiShoto 01-19-08, 02:49 AM	So you're giving them the Web spell 8/day? That's fine, but it's temporary. Temporary may be good in your mind, but for a spider-race I came up with a much more permanent (but perhaps far less immediately powerful) spinning ability: Web: Arachni pride themselves on their ability to spin excellent rope-like strands, produced by a gland in their thorax, into strong and durable webs. An arachnos can produce this substance as a swift action, up to 10 feet per round and 100 feet per 24 hour period. It is one tenth of an inch thick and has hardness 5, 1 HP per 5 feet, and a break DC of 25. An arachnos can choose between producing a sticky or non-sticky strand at will. With a Dexterity check and enough time, this strand can be spun into a web similar to the effect of the Web spell. The spinning requires 20 feet of strand and 2 full minutes per 5x5 feet square of web, with a DC on the check equal to 10 plus 1 per 5x5 square. For example, to spin a 10x15 feet rectangle of web would require 120 feet of webbing, 12 minutes to complete, and a Dexterity check of 16. An arachnos may take 10 on these checks, as appropriate, or accept a +2 aid another bonus from other arachni (who may provide additional strand length), but may never take 20. Failing the check to spin a web results in the loss of half of the required strand, and the arachnos must start over. The completed web functions exactly like the Web spell, but is permanent until destroyed, is not especially susceptible to fire, and does not regrow.There's an idea for ya :)
SmiloDan 01-19-08, 01:32 PM	I made a monster race like this once and called it the cobgoblin. They were fun, but too easy for the PCs at the time. Yours looks better, and I probably should have given them (more?) class levels.
Devigod 01-19-08, 03:01 PM	Thanks, I'll look into it, I need to look at the MM under spiders, it is a web attack, but I think it's different than web the spell. I cannot look that up at the moment as I do not have access to my books, but thank you for typing that up. There are two castes of spiders, as in MM. Hunter spiders and webspinners. Hunters are faster and are better at spot and jump, while webspinners get the web ability. They can both spin web nests. I'll get to higher level testing next chance I get as well. But they seem pretty even at lower level testing. I would imagine it would all be well at higher levels too. Would it be feasible or heighten LA much if I gave them proficiency with nets and allowed them to make some sort of craft check to craft nets out of their own silk? They would drop them from high above and attack their trapped prey. I may replace the web spray with this as well. Hmmm... They would even get sneak attack as their target would be denied their Dex bonus when trapped.
Balthanon 01-19-08, 03:53 PM	Would it be feasible or heighten LA much if I gave them proficiency with nets and allowed them to make some sort of craft check to craft nets out of their own silk? They would drop them from high above and attack their trapped prey. I may replace the web spray with this as well. Hmmm... They would even get sneak attack as their target would be denied their Dex bonus when trapped. I don't think that would be an issue and it could make for a nice flavorful ability to shore up a weak level adjustment. I.e. if you're torn between +2 and +3, add the ability and make them a +3. If this is functioning like a standard net though, it doesn't deny an opponent their Dex bonus, it just causes them to be entangled and allows you to control their movement.
Devigod 01-22-08, 09:07 PM	Okay then, I'm at +2. The only off thing was rogue, but examining the NPC class, they could have a much better chance to hit if the rogue bought weapon finesse, which the goblin has and most rogues end up buying. For clearence on webmaking, you can either see the MM under monsterous spiders on page 289. I'm working on the writeup, leaving out the nets and going to write more specifically on what 'web' means. I might use your writeup though, it's more detailed. Thank you, AtsuiShoto! I'll update as soon as the character writeup is finished. These bad boys outta make sweet rangers, rogues and just ambushers. Thank you for correcting me on the net. I guess I just got excited. Heh heh...