Are +2 LA races worth it? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Are +2 LA races worth it? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
mogarth
01-21-08, 03:26 PM Are +2 LA Races worth it?
Mr_Teapot
01-21-08, 03:35 PM For spellcasters almost certainly not.

For non-spellcasters it depends on the race in question. Usually not, but a couple of LAs are surprisingly low, so you might find an LA +2 race that's worth it. Or more likely, find a really crazily powerful +2 LA template to apply to a human (or two +1 La templates).

Did you have a specific race in mind? This isn't a question that can be answered across the board (except in the case of spellcasters - lost caster levels make the wizard cry).
Eldritch_Lord
01-21-08, 03:36 PM Generally, if you're a caster no LA is worth it, if you're a gish only significant ability boosts or other abilities are worth it, and if you're a melee type LA is hit-or-miss depending on the race/template.

So overall, no, unless (A) the benefits for your one particular build outweigh the drawbacks or (B) the LA is too low for its granted abilities. Like Mr_Teapot said, we'd have to know your build and the race you're considering to provide good advice.
Count Nerindil Van Seraph
01-21-08, 03:41 PM It's been said, but it bares repeating: LA is never good for casters.

What race are you looking at?
Robespierre
01-21-08, 03:43 PM I guess the answer to your question would be, what race what class, much like +0 LA races. Though I do not understand why people never have spellcasters with LA races, as they don't actually lose the levels as Teapot says, it just costs more XP to gain each level.
RobbyPants
01-21-08, 04:22 PM Some races like goliaths are worth their +1 LA. I've yet to see a +2 LA race that I truely like. If you're using the Unearthed Arcana level adjsutment buy-off, then most +1 LA races become worth it in the long run. Anything more than that, and it takes a long time to buy off the level adjustment.
BugHunter
01-21-08, 08:31 PM I guess the answer to your question would be, what race what class, much like +0 LA races. Though I do not understand why people never have spellcasters with LA races, as they don't actually lose the levels as Teapot says, it just costs more XP to gain each level.

The reason it is bad for spellcasters is they are behind in spell levels compared to a +0 LA spellcaster. For example a drow cleric 1 can cast only first level spells while dwarf cleric 3 can cast second level spells. For a +1 LA race the hit for spellcasters is taken in number of spells per day.
mogarth
01-21-08, 08:49 PM I am making a druid and was looking at anthro animals, i narrowed it down to a bat however for flavor reasons and b/c the seemed to have the best trade off stat wise. ( i had rolled low stats 12 12 15 12 15 12 ) so after racial mods i have ( 5 9 12 15 21 13 )
AtsuiShoto
01-21-08, 09:12 PM I am making a druid and was looking at anthro animals, i narrowed it down to a bat however for flavor reasons and b/c the seemed to have the best trade off stat wise. ( i had rolled low stats 12 12 15 12 15 12 ) so after racial mods i have ( 5 9 12 15 21 13 )Don't worry, those are NOT low stats. You don't have any impressively high ability scores (which can be bad, but not overly difficult to work around) but you also don't have anything below a '12'... which is great! Were you to use point buy to get those scores, you would have to spend 32 points. Not bad at all, and since you chose one of the most "broken" combinations of race and class ever published, I'm sure your character will be fine.

As for a LA, if you're going for a melee or archer druid (both of which can be quite doable) some templates and races with +2 LA will be worth it at high enough level. A goliath shapechange druid, for instance, can be an EXCELLENT choice.
nighttree
01-22-08, 12:03 AM Personal opinion......

IF you are using level reduction (buy off), and IF the LA gives you something that really contributes to the character idea, that cannot be accomplished with class levels, then go for it :D
UCsimplyme
01-22-08, 12:20 AM Phrenic 4tehwin!
Argaud
01-22-08, 09:29 AM Only a few

Half-ogre
Half-fey

And maybe a very few more.
fenderbassman2009
01-22-08, 09:44 AM i kinda like a centaur for fighter or ranger but i guess its nothing completely outstanding
Napoleon_the_Clown
01-23-08, 03:41 AM It depends on if there's LA buyoff, what the race/template is, what the class is, and just what you want to do. Example, Phrenic can be worthwhile for a character intended to take on mages head on. You get a bonus to your Dex (reflex saves), a bonus to your Wis (will saves), and PR/SR. Even without LA buyoff you can make a respectable mage slayer. In addition, you get some decent powers. It can be a good template for a non-caster or, at minimum, a caster that is less reliant on levels to be powerful. Duskblade, for example, would work. You'd get all the nicest stuff without going Epic on the experience table and get PR/SR. You'll also get a nice little Int bonus. And you'll even get a few blaster powers to compliment your Duskblade spells. Once you're at 19+ ECL (without LA buyoff) you can use fission once per day to double the uses of your arcane channeling.

As a lot of people have stated, it depends. With LA buyoff, a +2 LA can be worthwhile for a caster, though it'll take time. It also depends on if you want a certain roleplay experience. As an example, I'm thinking of seeing if I'd be allowed to do LA buyoff and play a Voidmind. Not for the bonuses the Voidmind gets, but for the experience of playing someone who, while capable of thinking and acting on his own (unless the Illithid decide otherwise...), is a glorified puppet. It sounds... interesting. :D
Zardnaar
01-23-08, 04:58 AM I think I only realy like 2. The Centaur and Half Vampire and even then it would depend on what class I'm taking.
runestar
01-23-08, 06:31 AM Note that a centaur also has 4 monstrous humanoid HD, making it an ECL6 character, meaning you are the equivalent of a 6th lv PC, and need to be 7th lv before you can take your 1st class lv.

The half-ogre (races of destiny) looks like it may make an excellent fighter at mid-higher lvs (I expect it will suck a little early on because its stat mods cannot compensate the loss of class lvs).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
mogarth 01-21-08, 03:26 PM	Are +2 LA Races worth it?
Mr_Teapot 01-21-08, 03:35 PM	For spellcasters almost certainly not. For non-spellcasters it depends on the race in question. Usually not, but a couple of LAs are surprisingly low, so you might find an LA +2 race that's worth it. Or more likely, find a really crazily powerful +2 LA template to apply to a human (or two +1 La templates). Did you have a specific race in mind? This isn't a question that can be answered across the board (except in the case of spellcasters - lost caster levels make the wizard cry).
Eldritch_Lord 01-21-08, 03:36 PM	Generally, if you're a caster no LA is worth it, if you're a gish only significant ability boosts or other abilities are worth it, and if you're a melee type LA is hit-or-miss depending on the race/template. So overall, no, unless (A) the benefits for your one particular build outweigh the drawbacks or (B) the LA is too low for its granted abilities. Like Mr_Teapot said, we'd have to know your build and the race you're considering to provide good advice.
Count Nerindil Van Seraph 01-21-08, 03:41 PM	It's been said, but it bares repeating: LA is never good for casters. What race are you looking at?
Robespierre 01-21-08, 03:43 PM	I guess the answer to your question would be, what race what class, much like +0 LA races. Though I do not understand why people never have spellcasters with LA races, as they don't actually lose the levels as Teapot says, it just costs more XP to gain each level.
RobbyPants 01-21-08, 04:22 PM	Some races like goliaths are worth their +1 LA. I've yet to see a +2 LA race that I truely like. If you're using the Unearthed Arcana level adjsutment buy-off, then most +1 LA races become worth it in the long run. Anything more than that, and it takes a long time to buy off the level adjustment.
BugHunter 01-21-08, 08:31 PM	I guess the answer to your question would be, what race what class, much like +0 LA races. Though I do not understand why people never have spellcasters with LA races, as they don't actually lose the levels as Teapot says, it just costs more XP to gain each level. The reason it is bad for spellcasters is they are behind in spell levels compared to a +0 LA spellcaster. For example a drow cleric 1 can cast only first level spells while dwarf cleric 3 can cast second level spells. For a +1 LA race the hit for spellcasters is taken in number of spells per day.
mogarth 01-21-08, 08:49 PM	I am making a druid and was looking at anthro animals, i narrowed it down to a bat however for flavor reasons and b/c the seemed to have the best trade off stat wise. ( i had rolled low stats 12 12 15 12 15 12 ) so after racial mods i have ( 5 9 12 15 21 13 )
AtsuiShoto 01-21-08, 09:12 PM	I am making a druid and was looking at anthro animals, i narrowed it down to a bat however for flavor reasons and b/c the seemed to have the best trade off stat wise. ( i had rolled low stats 12 12 15 12 15 12 ) so after racial mods i have ( 5 9 12 15 21 13 )Don't worry, those are NOT low stats. You don't have any impressively high ability scores (which can be bad, but not overly difficult to work around) but you also don't have anything below a '12'... which is great! Were you to use point buy to get those scores, you would have to spend 32 points. Not bad at all, and since you chose one of the most "broken" combinations of race and class ever published, I'm sure your character will be fine. As for a LA, if you're going for a melee or archer druid (both of which can be quite doable) some templates and races with +2 LA will be worth it at high enough level. A goliath shapechange druid, for instance, can be an EXCELLENT choice.
nighttree 01-22-08, 12:03 AM	Personal opinion...... IF you are using level reduction (buy off), and IF the LA gives you something that really contributes to the character idea, that cannot be accomplished with class levels, then go for it :D
UCsimplyme 01-22-08, 12:20 AM	Phrenic 4tehwin!
Argaud 01-22-08, 09:29 AM	Only a few Half-ogre Half-fey And maybe a very few more.
fenderbassman2009 01-22-08, 09:44 AM	i kinda like a centaur for fighter or ranger but i guess its nothing completely outstanding
Napoleon_the_Clown 01-23-08, 03:41 AM	It depends on if there's LA buyoff, what the race/template is, what the class is, and just what you want to do. Example, Phrenic can be worthwhile for a character intended to take on mages head on. You get a bonus to your Dex (reflex saves), a bonus to your Wis (will saves), and PR/SR. Even without LA buyoff you can make a respectable mage slayer. In addition, you get some decent powers. It can be a good template for a non-caster or, at minimum, a caster that is less reliant on levels to be powerful. Duskblade, for example, would work. You'd get all the nicest stuff without going Epic on the experience table and get PR/SR. You'll also get a nice little Int bonus. And you'll even get a few blaster powers to compliment your Duskblade spells. Once you're at 19+ ECL (without LA buyoff) you can use fission once per day to double the uses of your arcane channeling. As a lot of people have stated, it depends. With LA buyoff, a +2 LA can be worthwhile for a caster, though it'll take time. It also depends on if you want a certain roleplay experience. As an example, I'm thinking of seeing if I'd be allowed to do LA buyoff and play a Voidmind. Not for the bonuses the Voidmind gets, but for the experience of playing someone who, while capable of thinking and acting on his own (unless the Illithid decide otherwise...), is a glorified puppet. It sounds... interesting. :D
Zardnaar 01-23-08, 04:58 AM	I think I only realy like 2. The Centaur and Half Vampire and even then it would depend on what class I'm taking.
runestar 01-23-08, 06:31 AM	Note that a centaur also has 4 monstrous humanoid HD, making it an ECL6 character, meaning you are the equivalent of a 6th lv PC, and need to be 7th lv before you can take your 1st class lv. The half-ogre (races of destiny) looks like it may make an excellent fighter at mid-higher lvs (I expect it will suck a little early on because its stat mods cannot compensate the loss of class lvs).