Are drow worth the +2 LA? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Are drow worth the +2 LA? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
StalkerEntreri
04-03-07, 12:14 PM I don't think they are; besides the SR they aren't much more powerful than regular elves
Steely_Dan
04-03-07, 12:19 PM My buddy is playing one (a psion) in a Planescape campaign, and we think they are definitely worth the LA. The SR is huge, plus the bonus on Will saves and enchantment spells/effects etc.

And if the DM allows LA buy off than it is really sweet.
StalkerEntreri
04-03-07, 12:21 PM It would be useful; but many of my DM's don't really use spells/spellcasters because they're newer DM's.

So in a less magic campaign (Other than the PCs); are drow worth the level adjustment.
WinterPsionic
04-03-07, 01:18 PM Putting the abundance of spell casters aside the SR begins yo loose it's effectiveness at higher levels, for example a level 16 Sorcerer cast's at a ECL 16 Drow, the SR for the Drow is only 27 meaning the Sorcerer only needs an 11 to beat it, of they have spell penetration that's only a 9(now under the 50/50 mark) and if they have Greater they only need a 7.

In a campaign lacking Magic I don't see the LA really being worth it however they'd still be a +1.

*EDIT* And next time please try a search, their have been a considerable number of topics about this in the past 2 or so weeks. Thank you! :D
DarkRhystar
04-03-07, 02:07 PM Putting the abundance of spell casters aside the SR begins yo loose it's effectiveness at higher levels, for example a level 16 Sorcerer cast's at a ECL 16 Drow, the SR for the Drow is only 27 meaning the Sorcerer only needs an 11 to beat it, of they have spell penetration that's only a 9(now under the 50/50 mark) and if they have Greater they only need a 7.

In a campaign lacking Magic I don't see the LA really being worth it however they'd still be a +1.

*EDIT* And next time please try a search, their have been a considerable number of topics about this in the past 2 or so weeks. Thank you! :D

Your SR calculation is wrong. The Drow SR is 25; it's 11 + character level, not ECL. The +2 LA doesn't give +2 SR.

As a side note, in an effort to make the Drow more worthwhile at its LA, I do suggest raising its SR to 13 + class levels (which then does make WinterPsionic's post correct).
smeagol_lied
04-03-07, 02:19 PM Nope.

At least, i've never found them to be.
WinterPsionic
04-03-07, 06:58 PM Your SR calculation is wrong. The Drow SR is 25; it's 11 + character level, not ECL. The +2 LA doesn't give +2 SR.

As a side note, in an effort to make the Drow more worthwhile at its LA, I do suggest raising its SR to 13 + class levels (which then does make WinterPsionic's post correct).

Nice catch, I was kinda out of it this morning so I probably had a few such errors in a few of my posts.
Karish
04-03-07, 07:25 PM I think they're in between +1 and +2, really. Nix the penalty for sunlight and they are pretty much +2
Count Arioch the 28th
04-03-07, 07:33 PM SR isn't really all it's cracked up to be, considering you need to use a standard action to drop it if you want a friendly person to cast a spell on you.
tetebetson
04-03-07, 07:41 PM I think the La is left over from when Drow got Infra vission which i think made them better in the dark.
Also give them spiderclimb and levitate aswell as the others.
get a pair of gogles like Ridichs from pitch black
also a + 5 Racial bonus to Hide& Move sillently

Tetebetson

Illea Olath
AAB
04-03-07, 07:52 PM i agree that SR can be a pain. sometimes you can't spare the action you need to drop your defenses to allow the cleric to heal you.
Finfreeze
04-03-07, 09:33 PM I do not think that drow are worth the ECL, especially since the phrenic creature template stomps them in practically every category.

The least I'd do to fix drow would be...

Increase dexterity to +4.
Reduce Light Blindness to Light Sensitivity
Give them natural spellcasting ability, say one or two levels of cleric or sorcerer (maybe with an effective caster level boost if they only get one free spellcaster level)
Perhaps trade out the spell-likes
Change the intelligence bonus to a wisdom bonus, to facilitate drow clerics
Change male's favored class to Sorcerer, since innate wizard spellcasting is just weird
Have the drow paragon class grant full spellcasting...perhaps granting said caster level boost only if you take a level of the paragon class

That or, of course, lowering their LA to +1 and calling it a day.
Treymordin
04-03-07, 10:44 PM I dont think that the +2 LA is worthy it, though I love the drow so very much.
Lotus Crane
04-04-07, 03:12 AM Drow are too powerful to be LA 0, but not really worth LA +2; they should probably be LA +1. What with the SR being almost as much of a curse as a blessing, all it comes down to is the positive ability score modifiers, SLA's, and somewhat modified elven traits, which is probably worth LA +1.
Qube
04-04-07, 04:00 AM I don't think they are; besides the SR they aren't much more powerful than regular elves
besides the fact that the have 120 ft darkvision (this means, in the dark you can see enemies from 60 ft to 120 ft, while they can't see you !)

I found drow to be a great rogue race. worth the LA+2

how can SR be a curse? you can choose to allow spells (like healing) !

plus if they had lower LA, the DnD world would be flooded by drow player characters.
tetebetson
04-04-07, 06:47 AM I do not think that drow are worth the ECL, especially since the phrenic creature template stomps them in practically every category.

The least I'd do to fix drow would be...

Increase dexterity to +4.
Reduce Light Blindness to Light Sensitivity
Give them natural spellcasting ability, say one or two levels of cleric or sorcerer (maybe with an effective caster level boost if they only get one free spellcaster level)
Perhaps trade out the spell-likes
Change the intelligence bonus to a wisdom bonus, to facilitate drow clerics
Change male's favored class to Sorcerer, since innate wizard spellcasting is just weird
Have the drow paragon class grant full spellcasting...perhaps granting said caster level boost only if you take a level of the paragon class

That or, of course, lowering their LA to +1 and calling it a day.

I agrre with most of what youve said exept, u could exchane wizard favourd class for sorcerer but I would think maybe Psion.
Inate Psionic's seems more plausable than inate Wizardry

A good way to deal with drow's inate abillities is maybe change some stuff around acording to what house they come from in drow society or which city they come from .
They take their breeding very seriously so regional variations are easily plausable.

More food for thought, do people think Umbregen should get +2 dex and +2 wisdom
and leave - con of and leave +2 int off.?
Rogue Shadows
04-04-07, 10:30 AM The problem with changing a drow as drastically as lined out above, though, is that it goes against their flavor.

Sorry to point this out, but D&D is as much about role as it is roll.

Don't get me wrong - I love hack n' slash. Almost all the games I've played or DM'd have been hack n' slash. I'm not one of those freaks that think you have to play a PHB race with a PHB class and have 8 in every ability score to actually be playing D&D. That's just stupid.

Having said that, from a game-making standpoint, a drow has to conform to flavor and fluff, as much as be good mechanically. In the case of the above...

Reduce Light Blindness to Light Sensitivity

But that's not what they're shown to have. They are blinded by bright light, not merely inconvenienced.

Give them natural spellcasting ability, say one or two levels of cleric or sorcerer (maybe with an effective caster level boost if they only get one free spellcaster level)

Doesn't ever show this, anywhere. Not even a little.

Perhaps trade out the spell-likes

But those spell-likes are fundemental parts of drow character.

Change male's favored class to Sorcerer, since innate wizard spellcasting is just weird

But drow sorcerers are almost never shown. They've always been Wizards. Point of fact, I can't think of a single drow sorcerer, apart from Jezz.

***

Personally, here's what I'd do.

DROW, ROGUE'S
As standard drow, except as follows.
- Level Adjustment: +1. Drow are slightly more powerful than standard races, and gain levels at a slightly slower speed as a result.

From a DMing perspective, I'd personally rather have a character that's slightly too powerful for their ECL, rather than slightly too weak. It's easier to make harder challenges than it is to make easier ones, or at least that's what I find.

Best of all, it doesn't clash with flavor at all.

To make their current LA worth it...

DROW, ROGUE'S, Mk. II
As standard drow, except as follows.
- Spell Resistance: Drow have Spell Resistance equal to 13 + character level.
- Saves: Drow are immune to non-magical poisons. They also recieve a +2 racial bonus to all saving throws against spells.
- Spell-like abilities: 1/day - dancing lights, deeper darkness, and faerie fire. These are as cast by a Sorcerer equal to their character level.
- Skill Bonuses: Drow recieve a +4 racial bonus to Hide and Move Silently checks, and a +2 bonus to Bluff and Sense Motive checks.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
StalkerEntreri 04-03-07, 12:14 PM	I don't think they are; besides the SR they aren't much more powerful than regular elves
Steely_Dan 04-03-07, 12:19 PM	My buddy is playing one (a psion) in a Planescape campaign, and we think they are definitely worth the LA. The SR is huge, plus the bonus on Will saves and enchantment spells/effects etc. And if the DM allows LA buy off than it is really sweet.
StalkerEntreri 04-03-07, 12:21 PM	It would be useful; but many of my DM's don't really use spells/spellcasters because they're newer DM's. So in a less magic campaign (Other than the PCs); are drow worth the level adjustment.
WinterPsionic 04-03-07, 01:18 PM	Putting the abundance of spell casters aside the SR begins yo loose it's effectiveness at higher levels, for example a level 16 Sorcerer cast's at a ECL 16 Drow, the SR for the Drow is only 27 meaning the Sorcerer only needs an 11 to beat it, of they have spell penetration that's only a 9(now under the 50/50 mark) and if they have Greater they only need a 7. In a campaign lacking Magic I don't see the LA really being worth it however they'd still be a +1. EDIT And next time please try a search, their have been a considerable number of topics about this in the past 2 or so weeks. Thank you! :D
DarkRhystar 04-03-07, 02:07 PM	Putting the abundance of spell casters aside the SR begins yo loose it's effectiveness at higher levels, for example a level 16 Sorcerer cast's at a ECL 16 Drow, the SR for the Drow is only 27 meaning the Sorcerer only needs an 11 to beat it, of they have spell penetration that's only a 9(now under the 50/50 mark) and if they have Greater they only need a 7. In a campaign lacking Magic I don't see the LA really being worth it however they'd still be a +1. EDIT And next time please try a search, their have been a considerable number of topics about this in the past 2 or so weeks. Thank you! :D Your SR calculation is wrong. The Drow SR is 25; it's 11 + character level, not ECL. The +2 LA doesn't give +2 SR. As a side note, in an effort to make the Drow more worthwhile at its LA, I do suggest raising its SR to 13 + class levels (which then does make WinterPsionic's post correct).
smeagol_lied 04-03-07, 02:19 PM	Nope. At least, i've never found them to be.
WinterPsionic 04-03-07, 06:58 PM	Your SR calculation is wrong. The Drow SR is 25; it's 11 + character level, not ECL. The +2 LA doesn't give +2 SR. As a side note, in an effort to make the Drow more worthwhile at its LA, I do suggest raising its SR to 13 + class levels (which then does make WinterPsionic's post correct). Nice catch, I was kinda out of it this morning so I probably had a few such errors in a few of my posts.
Karish 04-03-07, 07:25 PM	I think they're in between +1 and +2, really. Nix the penalty for sunlight and they are pretty much +2
Count Arioch the 28th 04-03-07, 07:33 PM	SR isn't really all it's cracked up to be, considering you need to use a standard action to drop it if you want a friendly person to cast a spell on you.
tetebetson 04-03-07, 07:41 PM	I think the La is left over from when Drow got Infra vission which i think made them better in the dark. Also give them spiderclimb and levitate aswell as the others. get a pair of gogles like Ridichs from pitch black also a + 5 Racial bonus to Hide& Move sillently Tetebetson Illea Olath
AAB 04-03-07, 07:52 PM	i agree that SR can be a pain. sometimes you can't spare the action you need to drop your defenses to allow the cleric to heal you.
Finfreeze 04-03-07, 09:33 PM	I do not think that drow are worth the ECL, especially since the phrenic creature template stomps them in practically every category. The least I'd do to fix drow would be... Increase dexterity to +4. Reduce Light Blindness to Light Sensitivity Give them natural spellcasting ability, say one or two levels of cleric or sorcerer (maybe with an effective caster level boost if they only get one free spellcaster level) Perhaps trade out the spell-likes Change the intelligence bonus to a wisdom bonus, to facilitate drow clerics Change male's favored class to Sorcerer, since innate wizard spellcasting is just weird Have the drow paragon class grant full spellcasting...perhaps granting said caster level boost only if you take a level of the paragon class That or, of course, lowering their LA to +1 and calling it a day.
Treymordin 04-03-07, 10:44 PM	I dont think that the +2 LA is worthy it, though I love the drow so very much.
Lotus Crane 04-04-07, 03:12 AM	Drow are too powerful to be LA 0, but not really worth LA +2; they should probably be LA +1. What with the SR being almost as much of a curse as a blessing, all it comes down to is the positive ability score modifiers, SLA's, and somewhat modified elven traits, which is probably worth LA +1.
Qube 04-04-07, 04:00 AM	I don't think they are; besides the SR they aren't much more powerful than regular elves besides the fact that the have 120 ft darkvision (this means, in the dark you can see enemies from 60 ft to 120 ft, while they can't see you !) I found drow to be a great rogue race. worth the LA+2 how can SR be a curse? you can choose to allow spells (like healing) ! plus if they had lower LA, the DnD world would be flooded by drow player characters.
tetebetson 04-04-07, 06:47 AM	I do not think that drow are worth the ECL, especially since the phrenic creature template stomps them in practically every category. The least I'd do to fix drow would be... Increase dexterity to +4. Reduce Light Blindness to Light Sensitivity Give them natural spellcasting ability, say one or two levels of cleric or sorcerer (maybe with an effective caster level boost if they only get one free spellcaster level) Perhaps trade out the spell-likes Change the intelligence bonus to a wisdom bonus, to facilitate drow clerics Change male's favored class to Sorcerer, since innate wizard spellcasting is just weird Have the drow paragon class grant full spellcasting...perhaps granting said caster level boost only if you take a level of the paragon class That or, of course, lowering their LA to +1 and calling it a day. I agrre with most of what youve said exept, u could exchane wizard favourd class for sorcerer but I would think maybe Psion. Inate Psionic's seems more plausable than inate Wizardry A good way to deal with drow's inate abillities is maybe change some stuff around acording to what house they come from in drow society or which city they come from . They take their breeding very seriously so regional variations are easily plausable. More food for thought, do people think Umbregen should get +2 dex and +2 wisdom and leave - con of and leave +2 int off.?
Rogue Shadows 04-04-07, 10:30 AM	The problem with changing a drow as drastically as lined out above, though, is that it goes against their flavor. Sorry to point this out, but D&D is as much about role as it is roll. Don't get me wrong - I love hack n' slash. Almost all the games I've played or DM'd have been hack n' slash. I'm not one of those freaks that think you have to play a PHB race with a PHB class and have 8 in every ability score to actually be playing D&D. That's just stupid. Having said that, from a game-making standpoint, a drow has to conform to flavor and fluff, as much as be good mechanically. In the case of the above... Reduce Light Blindness to Light Sensitivity But that's not what they're shown to have. They are blinded by bright light, not merely inconvenienced. Give them natural spellcasting ability, say one or two levels of cleric or sorcerer (maybe with an effective caster level boost if they only get one free spellcaster level) Doesn't ever show this, anywhere. Not even a little. Perhaps trade out the spell-likes But those spell-likes are fundemental parts of drow character. Change male's favored class to Sorcerer, since innate wizard spellcasting is just weird But drow sorcerers are almost never shown. They've always been Wizards. Point of fact, I can't think of a single drow sorcerer, apart from Jezz. *** Personally, here's what I'd do. DROW, ROGUE'S As standard drow, except as follows. - Level Adjustment: +1. Drow are slightly more powerful than standard races, and gain levels at a slightly slower speed as a result. From a DMing perspective, I'd personally rather have a character that's slightly too powerful for their ECL, rather than slightly too weak. It's easier to make harder challenges than it is to make easier ones, or at least that's what I find. Best of all, it doesn't clash with flavor at all. To make their current LA worth it... DROW, ROGUE'S, Mk. II As standard drow, except as follows. - Spell Resistance: Drow have Spell Resistance equal to 13 + character level. - Saves: Drow are immune to non-magical poisons. They also recieve a +2 racial bonus to all saving throws against spells. - Spell-like abilities: 1/day - dancing lights, deeper darkness, and faerie fire. These are as cast by a Sorcerer equal to their character level. - Skill Bonuses: Drow recieve a +4 racial bonus to Hide and Move Silently checks, and a +2 bonus to Bluff and Sense Motive checks.