Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Slayer_5 04-13-07, 07:29 AM	Ok, A Human starts at around age 18, and has Bonus Feat and bonus skill points, because they are so adaptable. An Elf, conversely, starts between 70 and 110, and just gets Martial Weapon prof, which isn't much, considering a level of a full bab class gives you ALL martial weapon proficiencies. All I am saying is that REAL bonus feats (not proficiencies) are a pretty rare thing (7 over a career), and for a Human to have gotten one while being alive 1/5 the time of the elf, would make elves pretty dumb. I mean, even if you say it as "Elves learn slower", or "They don't retain as much", they would seem like someone with a learning disability by our standards. Also, if humans get the bonus feat and skills for being more adaptive, why not a +2 int? I know they wanted to keep humans the middle ground, but +2 int seems to make way more sense then a bonus feat and skill points. But, back to the main point. If everything, especially elves, live so much longer then humans, but humans are the only things with a bonus feat, the non-humans would seem really slow... Any ideas?
Sareld 04-13-07, 07:35 AM	A young elf has all the time in the world. Why read homework every night, when you can go bowling, go for an ice cream with your friends, read something more interesting? You might spend an extra human lifetime finishing the bard college, but who cares? You still have hundreds and hundreds of years left to use what you have learned.. that is at least the most logical explanation I can find. But yeah, either elves are stupid like there is no tomorrow, or someone in WotC thought "lol, balance!" and made an age system that makes no sense no matter how you look at it.
BloodSpill 04-13-07, 07:39 AM	Elves are lazy. And when they do do something, they want to get it right, in a perfectionist, OCD kind of way. They are a very crazy people.
Kresalak 04-13-07, 07:43 AM	We've established this point over and over again. See "Goodnight, sweet prince" in my signature.
BW0222 04-13-07, 07:55 AM	Slayer_5, No elves are not stupid. Either are other races which don't get bonus skill points or bonus feats. I think most elves (dwarves, halflings, gnomes, etc.) would likely consider humans stupid. Why do you want skill points and feats in order to make yourself more powerful just so you can go out and risk your lives? Why not take your time and gain learn things over time? Why push yourselves on a daily basis? ... Oh yaa... I forgot, you are going to die in a few decades. Less than 1% of a typical population are adventurers. For a commoner, expert, non-adventuring PC class, etc. what difference does a few skill points make? Your maximum ranks is the same, so a specialist elf (say a blacksmith, barrel-maker, juggler) is as good as a specialist human. You can still max-out craft (blacksmith) and even take skill focus as a feat if you really wanted to. What difference does the having a few skill points in some other skill or a bonus feat make? You have no need for weapon focus (axe) or ranks in handle animal -- you are a blacksmith! If you are an adventurer... most folks would think you are stupid because adventurer's get killed a lot. Sure the bonus feat and skill points would be useful for an adventurer, but then again most elves wouldn't want to give up their low-light vision, bow/sword proficiencies, need to only meditate 4 hours a day to rest, immunity to sleep, bonus against enchantments, spot and listen bonuses, possibility of a super-human dexterity, etc.
Spikes01k 04-13-07, 07:58 AM	I agree that they are lazy due to the massive amounts of time the have; and to top it all off they only sleep 2 hours a night as well.
jimpaladin 04-13-07, 08:00 AM	I'm not sure you aren't trolling. But to try and answer, use the real world example of our sports stars. Very few of them started in their sport after High school and then became sports figures. Most have trained since being 4 or 5 years old. So obviously there is a learning curve. For races other than Human the learning curve is the same(ie same number of feats) BUT the real answer would to be to give other races MORE skill points. The problem with that is then why play a Human? Remember this is a Fantasy game and so you need rules to allow for different things. Just think that elves as longer lived don't apply themselves at 20 years old. They observe nature and basically are a drain on elven society. They don't start to apply themselves til 50 or so. Then through life they realize that if they learned everything by 120 what is there left to do for the next 500 years. You can't apply Human 120 years max to elves 700 years max. 2 different races 2 different ideas on all things.
EternalWizard 04-13-07, 08:13 AM	Elves created the Elven High Magic remember? No dump creature would ever be able to canceive an idea like that As far as the starting ages are concerned, it's not a matter of Knowledge or Abilities that an elf has by that time. An 80-year-old Elf does know much more things than the equivalent 18-year-old human, but for matters of balance these skills are concidered irrelevant with what u need to know as a Wizard, a Fighter, etc. It's just a matter of maturity. Let me give u an example. There are actually human communities in Africa where ppl are concidered adults at the age of 10-12. They even get married and have children at that age, and their life spam is shorter than ours. However they are no smarter than us (they are lees smart according to scientists). What happens is that are forced to get mature earlier. The same thing happens with Elves and humans: Elves have no reason to mature fast as they have 1000 years of life ahead of them.
Dhaerow 04-13-07, 08:51 AM	You also have to consider the fact that the brain of an 30 year old elf would be about as developed as the brain of a 7 year old human. An elven brain is just not ready for learning, untill they are about 70 years old.
gullas 04-13-07, 09:29 AM	some might be :P others like magic :P
Khan the Destroyer 04-13-07, 09:36 AM	I'm pretty sure elves are stupid. In fact, I'm almost positive that the word 'elf' is actually dwarven for 'emaciated imbecil'.
SpoonyBard 04-13-07, 10:59 AM	It's not that Elves are STUPID, it's just that they take longer to mature from Int 1 to Int 10 in brain size. Thus, while they learn more through childhood, they learn more than their brains can process, and only choose the best bits. In other words? Elves arn't stupid, just very, very forgetful.
Wharin 04-13-07, 12:50 PM	I love how people love attaching the "stupid" insult to all the longer lived demihumans, just because they don't go adventuring the same time humans do. Nevermind the fact that I can house train an 8 week old puppy to not go to the bathroom on the rug, but can't even expect a human to walk until, like, a year, much less use the bath room. Would you call a human stupid despite the fact that it can't live on its own for at least a decade, but often even longer than that, while like 90% of the animal kingdom can be killers within a year or three. Alot of it has to do, simply, with the maturation process and not how smart said race is going to be when it, eventually, reaches its peak. There's also something to be said of the culture. If you have a whole millenium to get what you need to get done before you die, you are going to take your time doing it. Teaching has taught me that. And it doesn't even nessisarily mean that what you do is going to be better than if you rushed. My kids who have 3 weeks to do a project do the same quaility as the kids who only have *a* week. Does it mean that the 3 week kids are stupid? Well... maybe... but I am going to attribute it to simply being lazy. The same would pretty much apply to elves.
JulesCARV 04-13-07, 01:09 PM	My view is that elven NPCs (as opposed to PCs) actually are generally higher level. They gain levels more slowly than humans, but they still gain more levels over their whole life. For example, if a typical 40 year old human is a level 2 commoner, a typical 200 year old elf is a level 5 commoner. The elf may have lived five times as long, but she's also gained 2.5 times as many class levels. So while it's true that elves are generally a bit slower learners than humans, it's also true that usually a centuries-old elf does have something to show for her time, in the form of greater skill, experience, etc, and they're not quite as slow learners as their lives are long. This also is a sensible, logical way of implementing the common fantasy view that a typical elf is a bit more impressive than a typical human without doing something like making elves an LA +1 race with new special powers. These "elves are generally higher level" rules of thumb do not, of course, apply to PCs, for balance reasons.
Moribund 04-13-07, 01:15 PM	It's not that elves are stupid, it is just that all adventuring elves have suffered severe blows to the head rendering them amnesic and recklessly brave. You know, like the typical human.
Valheru6 04-13-07, 01:27 PM	The bonus skill points and feat that a human gets reflects adaptability and flexibility, not necessarily intellect. The martial proficiencies of the elves are very useful, especially for the spellcasters who do not normally gain proficiency with any martial weapons. The martial weapon proficiencies are meant to reflect the martial and magical training that elves may undertake, again allowing a elven wizard to wield a longsword and longbow (which is also why they have the wizard as their preferred class). Besides, the elven culture and language is supposedly far more complex than human culture. I see where you are going with it, with elves being so much longer lived than humans and not the having bonuses towards skills and feats which the humans get. Personally, I think it just largely represents the cultures that they generally live in.
Slayer_5 04-13-07, 01:42 PM	See, most of these posts agree with my point. I am looking at this from a Human point of view. It seems that either A) Elves take longer to learn and remember things (appearing dumb slow to us) B) Elves COULD learn, but choose not to, because they have for ever to do anything. This concept seems dumb to me, because well, you would have to be conciously trying hard NOT to learn stuff, to not pick something up in the 60 someodd year difference. I guess what I am saying is, would an elf appear to be slow to us? Like, when you go to teach them a game, or explain the plan to them, would it take a couple of tries, or would they get it first go?
Valheru6 04-13-07, 01:56 PM	I wouldn't think so. I can see an elf learning a plan just as quickly as a human.
SpoonyBard 04-13-07, 02:30 PM	If anyone here reads Order of the Stick, Vaarsuvius and Haley have this conversation in the prequal book. It ends with pain for the elf. Thus, I suggest we end this conversation by hurting an elf. But elves learn slowly. It's that simple.
Climhazzard 04-13-07, 02:31 PM	Elves are not stupid per se. Races of the Wild establishes that adventuring elves leave home to quest and all that jazz after a century of living. The book also states that humans and elves mature at the same rate, but that elves just live at home for a longer amount of time. Granted, this screws over the whole "half-elves aren't popular cuz they age too fast for elves and too slow for humans" thing in the PHB, but more people complain about stupid elves than emo half-elves. Think of it this way: Elf and Human graduate from college, ceteris paribus, both with fairly equal grades. Human goes off to the big city to find a job, mate, and an apartment, taking all the risks of jumping into life. That takes him 2 months. Elf returns home to his folks, looks carefully for a job that fits him just right, a mate that just right, and carefully selects an apartment. That takes him 2 years. So, elves mature at the same rate as humans, but around age 25, the ageing process slows to your typical elven style. They beginning adventuring age of 110 for an elf is not when they are biologically and mentally able to leave the nest (they can do this at age 25), but rather the age they come out of the shell.
SpoonyBard 04-13-07, 02:38 PM	I refuse to believe any method of elf aging that doesn't include 10 years in diapers.
Roxlimn 04-13-07, 02:42 PM	Actually, everyone on the planet who's not an adventurer is stupid, because they take years and years and years to get like, two levels in an NPC class.
Valheru6 04-13-07, 02:43 PM	I refuse to believe any method of elf aging that doesn't include 10 years in diapers. Maybe elves mature at the same rate as humans but to be considered "adults" they have to aquire so much knowledge or experience. I think you are comparing humans to elves proportionately, year to year. I have to disagree with you there. Actually, everyone on the planet who's not an adventurer is stupid, because they take years and years and years to get like, two levels in an NPC class. We are discussing this more or less in a roleplaying perspective, I think, than in the actual game. The rules are also abstract so just because a person is an NPC and doesn't level up as quickly, in the game world they are not necessarily stupid. Well, I'll stop butting in.
Roxlimn 04-13-07, 03:14 PM	Ergo, by the same mechanism, elves are likewise not necessarily stupid.
Aetheryn 04-13-07, 03:52 PM	So, the races that mature faster than humans must be smarter than humans and co., hm? *looks at orc and countless animal species* As for elves, with such a long life, they take things one step at a time. Heck, if anything the elves probably would think as humans as the stupid ones--rushing along with their regimented and hectic lives and not taking time to smell the roses.
GhostStepper 04-13-07, 04:09 PM	Alot of it has to do, simply, with the maturation process and not how smart said race is going to be when it, eventually, reaches its peak. And that could apply here if elves' intelligence was greater than humans' to the same degree as human intelligence is greater than a dog's. Considering an adult human and adult elf has the same average intelligence, elves are going to appear expremely "slow in the head" compared to humans. I guess what I am saying is, would an elf appear to be slow to us? Like, when you go to teach them a game, or explain the plan to them, would it take a couple of tries, or would they get it first go? Yes they would appear extremely slow. If they learned things as quickly as we, they would easily amass more knowledge and life experience than their physical maturity would indicate. Either elves are mentally slow by human standards or elf society keeps them in trapped dark caves for decades in order to avoid learning things. Maybe elves mature at the same rate as humans but to be considered "adults" they have to aquire so much knowledge or experience. I think you are comparing humans to elves proportionately, year to year. I have to disagree with you there. So your saying they mature as fast as humans but are so incredibly slow that it takes them a century to aquire the same knowledge and experience that a human gets in a decade?
Wharin 04-13-07, 04:24 PM	And that could apply here if elves' intelligence was greater than humans' to the same degree as human intelligence is greater than a dog's. Considering an adult human and adult elf has the same average intelligence, elves are going to appear expremely "slow in the head" compared to humans. Well... sure for the first 100 or so years, they are slow in the head... but its ok, because they are slow all over, not just the head. After those 100 or so years, they can learn just as fast as the next humanoid. Elves don't have some innate exp penalty, the can level just as fast as a human... Its just that NPC's won't simply adventure as much as a human would, because all of that rushing is, quite frankly, exhausting. Whats the good of going on a hike if you don't stop to smell the tree moss? And if we are going to label the Elves slow for not having an INT bonus despite their long life, should we not do the same for humans, then? After all Thri-Kreen take all of about 5 years to get to adventure ready status, and they are just as smart as the next human, despite talking a third of the time as a human would. So yeah... maybe Elves are "stupid" but so are humans too.
SpoonyBard 04-13-07, 04:28 PM	So I'm starting to think that it might just be that elves aren't stupid, but they're lazy! They don't take the effort to learn! ...Now I wantto play a 40 year old, pre-teen elf (with small size and the -2s across the board, or whatever it is being achild gives you in d20 modern) with like 5 levels of wizard.
CaptKillern 04-13-07, 04:37 PM	Ok, A Human starts at around age 18, and has Bonus Feat and bonus skill points, because they are so adaptable. Any ideas? I take this as humans are born with the knowledge that they won't be around long and try to cram as much as they can in the short time they have. Elves on the other hand have (comparatively) all the time in the world and thus dont pressure themselves to learn something as quickly as they can. The races of the wild book states elves will do many different jobs over their lives, whether its gardening, house building, studying magic, etc, and they do all of this in an ecclectic fashion depending on their mood at the time and what they fancy at the moment. Humans are more ambitious and try to master something as quickly as they can to the point of excluding other pursuits while they do it. Like a full time student may graduate in 2 years. Where as a part time student who is also working, and sometimes takes some semesters off to visit europe or "find themselves" may graduate with the same degree 4 years later. My personal take would be that because of their longer life spans elves are more likely to advance into epic levels than shorter lived races and thus will be just as skilled if not more so that humans. Just with longer time spent to develope the same skills.
CaptKillern 04-13-07, 04:47 PM	I guess what I am saying is, would an elf appear to be slow to us? Like, when you go to teach them a game, or explain the plan to them, would it take a couple of tries, or would they get it first go? I think that the elf would be able to pick up the game fairly quickly (barring vast cutural differences) just as quickly as a human would. The difference would be the elf would lose interest in the game quicker and move on to a dozen different games. When asked to play the game again the elf may not remember exactly as it is just one of the many games he has played. More than likely the human would have to refresh the elves memory again as to the rules. From the human's perspective it may look like the elf is slow or has a bad memory. From the elves point of view the game is not important enough to warrant him devoting all his time and effort in when there are hundreds of other games yet to be played. To put it another way, if a test was given on trivial knowledge of a dozen topics I believe an elf child would score higher than a human child. but if a test was given on in depth knowledg of one topis the human child would probably score higher assuming it is a subject the human child has taken.
GhostStepper 04-13-07, 04:48 PM	After all Thri-Kreen take all of about 5 years to get to adventure ready status, and they are just as smart as the next human, despite talking a third of the time as a human would. So yeah... maybe Elves are "stupid" but so are humans too. Note that I did say slow in the head compared to humans. When comparing humans and elves you cant obviously label both of them stupid without another point of reference since their developmentaly aptitude is relative to each other. Making thri-kreen the baseline instead of humans and we would have to find humans and "slow" and elves as "slower". On the upside, atleast humans get a bonus feat and skill points over the thri-kreen for there extra time in maturation. The difference would be the elf would lose interest in the game quicker and move on to a dozen different games. When asked to play the game again the elf may not remember exactly as it is just one of the many games he has played. More than likely the human would have to refresh the elves memory again as to the rules. From the human's perspective it may look like the elf is slow or has a bad memory. From the elves point of view the game is not important enough to warrant him devoting all his time and effort in when there are hundreds of other games yet to be played. So ADD is to blame? ;)
SpoonyBard 04-13-07, 04:52 PM	Can we take dragons as the base, born with int scores higher than the average ADULT human? You're ALL stupid! Muahahahah!
Dazzer 04-13-07, 04:56 PM	An elf, can take a long-term vision of how they want to live their life, and in fact, most take such a long-term vision, that they'll spend 50 years building a single house. They'll get opinions, they'll do it all by themselves (as they are independant), and they'll take their time. Human's with their very short life span in comparison, take the world into their hands and pull. They want to get as much out of their life as possible. To represent this humans are alotted more skill points, which represents them not being smarter, but more driven, and a bonus feat, which represents them being very adaptable and again represents their drive. So is an elf stupid for taking his time? Well, no, he knows that the human with his feat and skills...will be dead, and that the elf who takes say...600 years to reach level 15, will know that same humans great, great, great, great, great, great, great, grandson. The longterm approach to life seems alien, but that's only because we're human, and don't have much time!
Vintar 04-13-07, 05:01 PM	Or you could just go by Eberron rules and make elves higher level than everyone else. The average human war veteran is a level 2 warrior while the average elf war veteran is a level 4-6 PC class (ranger being most common). Now, adventurer humans can be higher level - but because humans are more common the level 10 humans are just a higher percentile of sweetness for humans than the level 10 elf relatively speaking. Therefore most elves have more feats/skills than most humans, however a human of equal sweetness (level) would have a wider variety of skills at their disposal. The same could be extrapolated to dwarves, gnomes, half-elves etc., though to a lesser degree since elves live the longest.
Grave_Accomplice 04-13-07, 06:37 PM	Humans learn to adapt faster because they have to. We're everywhere, creating and destroying cultures in such numbers that the 'older, established' races find sufficating. Elves have their wizards that will be around for hundreds of years. Dwarves have their undergorund fortresses. Half-orcs, well... most just look towards their next migration or meal. Humans are stuck in the middle of this. No real magic of their own, wizards that have accomplished extended lifespans not really caring for the rest of humanity, no one area of expertise that makes them special, yet possessing some gods awful obsession with being remembered. About the only thing available is to learn quickly and get it passed down before we die. We're kind of like the bugs from the movie 'Mimic'. It's not that we're smarter; we go through generations so quickly (comparitively) that we evolve with solutions that much faster. Most animals have a shorter lifespan than a human, yet consistently out think our traps or obstacles. Does that make us dumb? Example number 2:
Valheru6 04-13-07, 07:51 PM	I have changed my mind about staying out of this thread. So your saying they mature as fast as humans but are so incredibly slow that it takes them a century to aquire the same knowledge and experience that a human gets in a decade? No. What is with people saying that just because the elves are considered adults at 110 make them slow in the head compared to humans. If you look at the ability scores and you compare the average intelligence scores of both a human and elven commoner, you will see that they both have a value of 10. Now as a rule of thumb, one point of intelligence equals 10 IQ. With this in mind, both commoners would have an IQ of 100. Now by the mere fact that the elf will live longer than the human, the elf could be seen as more knowledgable. Now an IQ is just a measure of how quickly someone can learn. What you said would also mean that a half-orc would make the human look a little slow, because he reaches adulthood sooner. If two races reach adulthood, they may not necessarily contain the same amount of knowledge, they are just considered adults by their peers.
M1kh43l_P4r4d1s0 04-13-07, 07:56 PM	I never play elves. Not because of balance or anything. But it is simply that elves are the only things you can get elven cancer from. Also they have tiny ding-dongs... especially the women... or is that halflings? Gotta love the PHB PSA's. *I am not poking fun at cancer. My mom and many other have it, and it has ruined countless lives.
CaptKillern 04-13-07, 08:40 PM	...as a rule of thumb, one point of intelligence equals 10 IQ. With this in mind, both commoners would have an IQ of 100. Hmm by that equation Albert Einstein would have an Intelligence score of 16... As a wizard he couldnt even cast 7th level spells. :weep:
Valheru6 04-13-07, 09:11 PM	I think Einstein would have a higher Intelligence score because I know someone with an IQ of 160. :)
CaptKillern 04-13-07, 09:41 PM	I think Einstein would have a higher Intelligence score because I know someone with an IQ of 160. :) "Everybody thinks that Albert Einstein's IQ was very high, but this is deffinitly not the case, his adult IQ was just above 160. He was deffinitly a genius, but this was not primarily due to his IQ, but his amazing level on transcendental thinking." from: http://www.geocities.com/einstein_library/iq.htm but just do a google search under einstein IQ and you will see many other sites. Also read somewhere than less than 1% of all people have an IQ higher than 135. Average IQ is between 85 and 100. And wikepedia lists the average IQ in the United States at (98), with HongKong being highest (107) and Equatorial Guinea being lowest at (59)...
tridiak 04-14-07, 02:43 AM	Me thinks WOTC screwed up. Elves in my opinion should have +2 Int. Every decade or five, gain one rank in some skill. These ranks are outside normal skill point allocation. LA would of course go up. And/or they would have one class level every 50-150yrs of some form. Elves created High Magic. They are definitely not stupid.
The Simple Seeker II 04-14-07, 09:33 AM	Really, base on what?You also have to consider the fact that the brain of an 30 year old elf would be about as developed as the brain of a 7 year old human. An elven brain is just not ready for learning, untill they are about 70 years old.
TheAngryFish 04-14-07, 10:14 AM	Humans exist everywhere, and can do just about anything, but not every one can do the same thing as another, which implies their individual adaptability; thus, they get a bonus feat and skill. Elves aren't as adaptable, they grow and live their life learning to be like other elves, in a very cultured and nurturing society. Intellect is not really involved, but I guess someone could infer from the game, that if you lack a high int score, you get fewer skills, which could imply that humans are smarter because they get an extra skill.
Faithkeep 04-14-07, 10:24 AM	We've established this point over and over again. See "Goodnight, sweet prince" in my signature. I'm pretty sure elves are stupid. In fact, I'm almost positive that the word 'elf' is actually dwarven for 'emaciated imbecil'. If anyone here reads Order of the Stick, Vaarsuvius and Haley have this conversation in the prequal book. It ends with pain for the elf. Thus, I suggest we end this conversation by hurting an elf. :w00t:
Zyrusticae 04-14-07, 10:31 AM	IQ should NOT be measured by a straight IQx10 conversion. Otherwise you have dragons with IQs in the high 300s, and frankly, that's ridiculous. Not only that, but it makes absolutely *no* sense that somebody's IQ would 'increase' over time. It just doesn't work that way. INT is an abstract measure of a character's overall knowledge AND learning capacity, not just one thing or the other. Someone posted a table on another forum, I can't recall where, but it used a much more reasonable algorithm for tracking IQ with INT scores (where a score of 18 was genius level - that is, an IQ of 140 - and scores above that were actually reasonably high, rather than stupidly excessive). As for elves... they're lazy. Hence, their low birth rate, relatively low population and rate of expansion, and general... laziness. Yeah. I have absolutely no idea how the Drow do it, however. That kinda culture looks more appropriate on an extremely short-lived, fast-growing race than a race of underground elves, to be honest...
aotrscommander 04-14-07, 10:44 AM	My view is that elven NPCs (as opposed to PCs) actually are generally higher level. They gain levels more slowly than humans, but they still gain more levels over their whole life. For example, if a typical 40 year old human is a level 2 commoner, a typical 200 year old elf is a level 5 commoner. The elf may have lived five times as long, but she's also gained 2.5 times as many class levels. So while it's true that elves are generally a bit slower learners than humans, it's also true that usually a centuries-old elf does have something to show for her time, in the form of greater skill, experience, etc, and they're not quite as slow learners as their lives are long. This also is a sensible, logical way of implementing the common fantasy view that a typical elf is a bit more impressive than a typical human without doing something like making elves an LA +1 race with new special powers. These "elves are generally higher level" rules of thumb do not, of course, apply to PCs, for balance reasons. To be horrible boring for a moment, that's exactly what I do in my campaign world (I feel justified, having now played it once in anger, I can stop calling it my 'new campaign world!) However, that said and done... So yeah... maybe Elves are "stupid" but so are humans too. Yes. Yes, they are. This is why Liches will rule the universe. We're just plain better than mortals. And Elves. And Vampires. And Shi'Ar. The fact I am only 27 and am already to the point where I can repeatedly spam Maximised Disintegrate merely proves my point. Mortals are lazy. By the time I'm as old as, say Galadriel, the universe will long since be under my control.
Pandaemoni 04-14-07, 10:57 AM	You have to keep in mind that in the D&D universe you do not "learn things over time." You learn things "when you have the skill points" or "when you have the XP." If you do not have skill points available, it doesn't matter if you are a super-genius who spend 1000 years studying a language or living in a country where everyone uses it, you will not know how to speak it.
Derren S. 04-14-07, 11:05 AM	it makes absolutely *no* sense that somebody's IQ would 'increase' over time. So a baby with an not yet fully developed brain has the same IQ than it would have 20 years later as a fully grown adult? Because that is exactly what happens with dragons.
Roxlimn 04-14-07, 11:06 AM	IQ is actually so abstract and so culture dependent that it's almost useless as a measure of intellect. It also doesn't measure several areas of intelligence that are more predictive of behavioral output.
kelvinaw273 04-14-07, 12:31 PM	A couple of points here ... 1) Your longer lived races, like elves, tend to have very elaborate cultures and languages. The reason elves always seem a haughty and patronizing to outsiders is not because of arrogance, but because they are treating them like children. Human languages to elf ears, and humans (and half elves) learning elvish aren't learning the full language - they are learning 'baby-elvish' and speaking he way an elf child would. To really learn elvish language and culture, and all its subtle nuances, takes around a century. 2) Elves have all the time in the world to learn anything they want, so they can afford to dabble a little here and there, learning very little of any worth but just indulging themselves. When they grow to greater years this dabbling will resolve into more experience levels (be they in PC or NPC classes) than other races, but the starting ages in the PHB are the average catch-up point. 3) Elf education involves some things that humans don't learn. Swordplay and archery, the basics of magic, elf history (and that's a long subject). 4) Humans tend to be more ambitious and passionate than elves, and strive to grow up fast. Elves aren't in any hurry. So what if you are physically fully grown but it's fifty years before you get considered an adult? You'll still get 600 years of adulthood out of the bargain. A half-elf leaves elf society for this reason, they just can't afford to wait that long!
Derren S. 04-14-07, 12:39 PM	1) Care to show me where it says that? The only restricted language is druidic. Every other language is equally hard to learn (2 skill points). There might be small differences but nothing which would make a language take hundered years to learn. 3) Using a sword and bow, yes. Thats less than what a warrior leanrs in 1-4 years. Basics of magic? No. Elves get no bonus to knowledge arcana or spellcraft so no magic lore. Likewise they also get no history skillpoints. 2+4) So elves are either lazy, extremly inattentive, simply dumb or activly don't want to learn anything. Probably a combination of all three factors.
SpoonyBard 04-14-07, 12:43 PM	This is why Liches will rule the universe. We're just plain better than mortals. And Elves. And Vampires. And Shi'Ar. The fact I am only 27 and am already to the point where I can repeatedly spam Maximised Disintegrate merely proves my point. Mortals are lazy. By the time I'm as old as, say Galadriel, the universe will long since be under my control. Hey! I take offense at that point! My wizard has Craft Wondrous Item, but I'm only level 8, and 120,000 GP is well out of my reach... Mortals can be dilligent and hard working and try to take over the universe... I mean honestly, it's not like you were BORN a Lich. Besides, becoming an outsider>becoming an undead. Fire Savant for the win!
Wharin 04-14-07, 01:12 PM	1) Care to show me where it says that? The only restricted language is druidic. Every other language is equally hard to learn (2 skill points). There might be small differences but nothing which would make a language take hundered years to learn. Actually, I believe in the Half Elf description it does mention that the Half Elves' mastery of the Elvish language is somewhat lacking. I'd say its a fair extrapolation that this would apply to any other non elf, as well. This isnt to say that some non-elf who has taken "Elf" as a language couldn't make do in an Elven community; its just that Elves are going to notice it after a few sentences. 2+4) So elves are either lazy, extremly inattentive, simply dumb or activly don't want to learn anything. Probably a combination of all three factors. Well, yes, a bit, I suppose, on all 3 levels. Its easy to put a label on something that doesn't progress the way humans do. But as its been pointed out, for as slow as Elves are compared to humans, Humans are just about as slow compared to Thri-Kreen. I think my biggest beef with this whole thread, and others like it, is it does one of two things. The first is that "OMG, elfs are teh suxxorz" mentality, which, while I may think its true, its not because of their maturation speed. The other is that people think that Wizards of the Coast screwed up with their racial write-up, which, again, I really don't see.
Valheru6 04-14-07, 01:46 PM	Sorry, now off-topic. IQ should NOT be measured by a straight IQx10 conversion. Otherwise you have dragons with IQs in the high 300s, and frankly, that's ridiculous. Not only that, but it makes absolutely *no* sense that somebody's IQ would 'increase' over time. It just doesn't work that way. INT is an abstract measure of a character's overall knowledge AND learning capacity, not just one thing or the other. Someone posted a table on another forum, I can't recall where, but it used a much more reasonable algorithm for tracking IQ with INT scores (where a score of 18 was genius level - that is, an IQ of 140 - and scores above that were actually reasonably high, rather than stupidly excessive). I didn't take into account any intelligence scores past 21 or realize exactly how good an IQ score really is. IQ is actually so abstract and so culture dependent that it's almost useless as a measure of intellect. Yeah, I forgot about that.
Zyrusticae 04-14-07, 01:59 PM	So a baby with an not yet fully developed brain has the same IQ than it would have 20 years later as a fully grown adult? Because that is exactly what happens with dragons. The whole point of othe IQ is that it's supposed to produce an equal score no matter what the age of the subject is. Of course, this usually, more often than not, isn't the case. And sometimes, scores can vary wildly between tests. Take that however you will. Personally, I'm just not a big fan of elves an' such long-lived races to begin with. 'I live for hundreds of years, so I'm gonna take my time and enjoy every drop of life I'm given!' ...Lucky bastards. And then there's the dragons, who spend months every year laying around in their caves, sleeping their lives off. Hah. What a life.
Atsettam 04-14-07, 02:35 PM	Elves created High Magic. They are definitely not stupid. I wouldn't be so sure of that. Elves were the ones that created the Vast Gate, creating a link to Far Realm.
CommanderFalken 04-14-07, 03:54 PM	So, if a human is 'smarter' than an elf because they mature faster, then does that make half orcs even smarter? Hell, animals are geniuses by that argument! Y'know how people mature at different speeds? Well, elves are the same, but times 10. And is a slower-maturing human considered dumber? I developed fairly slowly, and I'm in the top of my class!
CaptKillern 04-14-07, 04:45 PM	1) Care to show me where it says that? The only restricted language is druidic. Every other language is equally hard to learn (2 skill points). There might be small differences but nothing which would make a language take hundered years to learn. Gamewise learning a language is learning a language, there are no degrees of which you can learn it. (Although my DM did allow me to spend double skill points to be able to speak western common without accent for a Samurai character I had, this was to reflect extensive study with a native speaker in preperation for a diplomatic journey...) Realworld-wise There are definately levels in which languages are spoken. Especially languages such as Chinese, Japanese, and Arabic. I lived in Indonesia for 4.5 years and while I think I speak Bahasa Indonesia fairly well, I am definately no on level with a native speaker or even someone who studied indonesian in a university. I would not bog a game down with rules to reflect this, but it was funny when the DM made the monk speak with an accent. As far as the original topic, the only thing to go byis the intelligence stat, are elves racially lower than humans...no so therefor they are not stupid compared to humans. Feats are not indicators or intelligence, nor are skill points. If feats are, fighters are amongst the smartest of classes. A fighter with int of 14 being much smarter than a wizard with an int of 14... If skill points are, then a barbarian with an int of 14 is hands down smarter than a wizard with an int of 14...
Sphere 04-14-07, 04:52 PM	Humans and elves mature at the near the same speed, up to around 25ish, but elves spend around for 100 years to learn the basics of life. If elves spent 75 years to become "teenagers" and then another 50 on top of that to fully develop into young adulthood, then I could understand it taking so long to make an elf. What happened instead was the elf fan-boys tried to evaporate any weaknesses with elven long life by saying they grew up about as fast as a human physically, but it backfired and elves ended up extremely slow in the head.
SpoonyBard 04-14-07, 05:04 PM	So, if a human is 'smarter' than an elf because they mature faster, then does that make half orcs even smarter? Hell, animals are geniuses by that argument! Y'know how people mature at different speeds? Well, elves are the same, but times 10. And is a slower-maturing human considered dumber? I developed fairly slowly, and I'm in the top of my class! Animals mature faster into lower mental stats. Same with Half-Orcs. An animal has lower mental stats than a human, so it takes less time to achieve them. A half-orc has slightly lower mental stats, and it takes slightly less time to get there. We're just saying that elves are VERY slow maturing mentally, meaning that humans get just as smart much faster.
Bladerock 04-14-07, 05:10 PM	Humans and elves mature at the near the same speed, up to around 25ish, but elves spend around for 100 years to learn the basics of life. If elves spent 75 years to become "teenagers" and then another 50 on top of that to fully develop into young adulthood, then I could understand it taking so long to make an elf. What happened instead was the elf fan-boys tried to evaporate any weaknesses with elven long life by saying they grew up about as fast as a human physically, but it backfired and elves ended up extremely slow in the head. YEP, this is why many (incluiding myself) say d&d elves are VERY slow on the head. Was it so hard for whomever thought about it to say they mature at the same rate as humans and then have them start off at the age of 16 or so?
aotrscommander 04-14-07, 05:23 PM	Hey! I take offense at that point! My wizard has Craft Wondrous Item, but I'm only level 8, and 120,000 GP is well out of my reach... Pff. Phylactery Lichdom is all well an good, but in order to be really powerful, you need to be Spirit-Bound, like wot I is. And all you need to do for that is die and have someone spirit-bind you back into your corpse. Cheaper and quicker. (Heck, if you had a contingent spell, you could do it yourself for the price of a couple of scrolls. Were someone knowledgeable to create the scroll or teach it two you.) Mortals can be dilligent and hard working and try to take over the universe... I mean honestly, it's not like you were BORN a Lich. No, but in order to get where I am today, I got rid of being mortal ASAP. You get to rule the universe much quicker by cutting out all the unecessary time mortals waste on biological stuff. Okay, so the Aotrs don't rule the universe yet. But we're a major power dammit, and we're much younger as a spacefaring power than most others! Besides, becoming an outsider>becoming an undead. Fire Savant for the win! Not really...If I die (which is pretty damn unlikely, let's face it!), I can simply be re-bound. If an outsider dies, they're toast. Plus, I can't be summoned and bound by any old mortal with a Gate spell... Most outsiders - with a few notable enlightened fellows who frequent these boards - also have a decided lack of technlogical and theurmatergical advancement. (It is the one thing, the only thing, they have in common with Elves.) Demons are so stone-age. Still trying to kill stuff with fireballs and swords, when we're killing them with orbital bombardment, hover tanks, anti-matter warheads, magically bioengineered viruses, advanced necromantic dweomers, energy weapons, guided missiles AND fireballs AND swords. Demons just don't innovate well. I think it's geniunely the whole tied-to-eternal-plane thing, meaning they have a natural tendacy to keep doing what they've always been doing. Like dieties, actually... Edit: Was it so hard for whomever thought about it to say they mature at the same rate as humans and then have them start off at the age of 16 or so? I assume they do that in my games too... Of course, I have a pet hate of long periods where nothing in civilisation happens, too. This unfortunately does happen in most world timelines, even with otherwise ecellent authors. In my worlds, a passing of a thousand years will have much the same affect on civilisation as it would have in the real world in terms of advancement, wars, events (etc.)
CaptKillern 04-14-07, 05:33 PM	Was it so hard for whomever thought about it to say they mature at the same rate as humans and then have them start off at the age of 16 or so? Races of the wild says just that. not a direct quote (all typos are mine) but... "Player's handbook suggest elves don't reach full physical growth until 110. This is not entirely accurate. The random starting age is simply the age ay which most elf adventurers feel ready to leave their cforests and roam the world outside for a time. More than a few elves have commenced their adveturing careers at much younger ages. Elf children grow almost as swiftly as human children to age 15 or so; a 10 year old elf boy and a 10 year old human boy are nearly the same size and have similar mental and emotional maturity. The elf will be shorter and slighter than his human playmate. He is als quite likely to be more patient, observant, and self-sufficient, simply due to the influence of growing up in an elf household. Humans finish their "filling out" and full adult growth bu about age 20, but elves take a little longer, rarely reaching their full height and weight before age 25. After that, elves remain virtually timeless, decade after decade. ... elves gain experience, grace, emotional maturity, patience and wisdom through these ageless decades. "
Bladerock 04-14-07, 05:40 PM	Woo-Hoo! about time they fixed their horrible mistake. It is argued that people in a semi-realistic D&D setting should get some XP for mundane tasks, not just adventuring, Joe the tailor get's better each time he makes a new suit, it's just that the amount he gains is no contender for a single real encounter.If we go by this, elves spend 100+ years doing NOTHING, what's with that?
aotrscommander 04-14-07, 06:24 PM	If we go by this, elves spend 100+ years doing NOTHING, what's with that? Probably the same thing as when most fantasy timelines contain longer periods of time than the entire history of civilisation and are still pre-renassiance technologically. Most of the D&D campaign worlds (after a quick google search) suffer from this problem (with suprisingly, Mystara being a notable exception), along with Middle-Earth and many, many others. Most of them, in fact. Just tweaks me is all...
GhostStepper 04-14-07, 06:40 PM	No. What is with people saying that just because the elves are considered adults at 110 make them slow in the head compared to humans. If you look at the ability scores and you compare the average intelligence scores of both a human and elven commoner, you will see that they both have a value of 10. Except the 80 year old human commoner has a Int of 13 while the 80 year old elf has an Int of 10 at most (possibly less since they arent an adult). This clearly shows elves are slower than humans.
Climhazzard 04-14-07, 06:59 PM	Woo-Hoo! about time they fixed their horrible mistake. It is argued that people in a semi-realistic D&D setting should get some XP for mundane tasks, not just adventuring, Joe the tailor get's better each time he makes a new suit, it's just that the amount he gains is no contender for a single real encounter.If we go by this, elves spend 100+ years doing NOTHING, what's with that? That is what I said 2 pages ago: THE ADULT AGES FOR ELVES IN THE PHB HAVE BEEN RETCONNED SO THAT 110 IS NOT WHEN THEY REACH ADULTHOOD; IT IS WHEN THEY LEAVE HOME! (Sorry about that Bladerock, but bold and caps are great when overreacting.) By the way, I believe there was an article by a D&D designer or in Redgar's that proposes how non-adventuring NPCs level up: basically, they earn EXP after every year of existance. It might help explain why core elves are seen as more advanced than humans. For example, there are two level 1 Experts; one is a human and the other is an elf. Assuming they have the same Intelligence scores, are age 25, the human will appear smarter because of his bonus skill points (part of Intelligence is how well one learns new things). And they earn the same experience after every year of stayin' alive. Fast forward 50 years, the human is without a doubt smarter because of Venerable mental bonuses. The elf and human are the same level (level 6 we'll assume), but oh my! Mr. Human dies, while Mr. Elf is still kickin'. Mr. Human Jr. takes over at age 25, but at level 1, while Mr. Elf is still 75 years old and at level 6. Another 50 years, Mr. Human III is level 1, with Mr. Elf the bigshot at level 9.
DarkflameX 04-15-07, 02:16 PM	in a campaign im in, we are playing an older edition. my elf magic user started out at the age of 700 something and was still just a level 1 magic user. i agree its pretty dumb that it takes that long for them to do anything.
Nadaka 04-15-07, 04:12 PM	Elves are tree hugging hippies that do not realize they have a lot of traits that are slightly reduced versions of what the undead recieve. Yes I would say that they are indeed stupid.
Lixith 04-15-07, 05:35 PM	Well there are some things you just have to accept and move on. If we advance elves by human standards... a 200 year old elf would have what Level Adjustment???? That's no fun.
thepsionicbard 04-16-07, 02:50 PM	And that could apply here if elves' intelligence was greater than humans' to the same degree as human intelligence is greater than a dog's. Considering an adult human and adult elf has the same average intelligence, elves are going to appear expremely "slow in the head" compared to humans. Yes they would appear extremely slow. If they learned things as quickly as we, they would easily amass more knowledge and life experience than their physical maturity would indicate. Either elves are mentally slow by human standards or elf society keeps them in trapped dark caves for decades in order to avoid learning things. So your saying they mature as fast as humans but are so incredibly slow that it takes them a century to aquire the same knowledge and experience that a human gets in a decade? i dont think that there slow just thurogh lets use the example of the game that is trying to be taught : elves would take there time so that they can get a full understanding of the game not just the basics but the underlaying statigy and skill treckniques it might take more time but they'll be more sertain to beat you the first time out to put it sucsinctly shorter lived races might only care about the how but to longer lived races the why is just as important
SSj3goblin 04-16-07, 03:29 PM	Think of it this way: Elf and Human graduate from college, ceteris paribus, both with fairly equal grades. Human goes off to the big city to find a job, mate, and an apartment, taking all the risks of jumping into life. That takes him 2 months. Elf returns home to his folks, looks carefully for a job that fits him just right, a mate that just right, and carefully selects an apartment. That takes him 2 years. Seems way too lawful as an elven point of view.
calronmoonflower 04-16-07, 03:58 PM	Elves like to take their time and generally take 5-6 times as long to do any type of craft work if they have no need to rush, I think this type of thinking applies to growing up as well. It seems like an extreme application of "Measure twice, cut once."
Climhazzard 04-16-07, 04:29 PM	Seems way too lawful as an elven point of view. So does the Wizard class, quant Elven monogamy, looking at things in the loooooong run, and focus when pursuing a goal. Also, you don't have to be Lawful to be careful (even excessively careful). Granted, maybe I should of said "Elf returns home to his folks, and partays to the extreme at his friends' treehouses, being that pitiful senior who always comes back to college and high school for various suspect reasons". But than that seems like Elves have low Wisdom....
adgramaine 04-16-07, 04:59 PM	So, I cut my teeth on Warhammer RPG way back in the early 80's when most people my age were playing the colored-box sets of DnD. Don't lynch me... I'm leading up to a valid point. See, Warhammer, like DnD, states RAW that elves age slow, start adventuring at a "later" age (compared to other species). The difference is that the writers of Warhammer explain the "learning gap" so easily defined in d20 mechanics. When an elf meditates for his or her daily rest, the meditation techniques allow them to filter their memories, effectively dumping the useless knowledge that clutters the average human's mind. Have a bad day? Simply forget it happened. A side effect of this is that elves come across as aloof and uncaring about certain small details that humans and other short-lived people fret about. They do this so they don't have to admit that they forgot whatever detail they human is fretting over. It makes a certain amount of sense. Though long lived, the elven brain is structured in much the same way, so it cannot hope to maintain the clutter that would accumulate over the centuries. Ergo, the memory dump. Ever since then, I have RP'ed elves in DnD the same way. It makes sense to me. Elves aren't dumb - they forget because they choose to forget. They only keep the knowledge and experience that matters to them as individuals. See, that to me, makes sense. It fits with their average alignment of chaotic, and explains so much.