Post/Author/DateTime	Post
StalkerEntreri 03-26-07, 11:46 PM	I think that Half Orc's are a bit underpowered compared to the other races. The +2 STR is nice but losing both CHA and INT make it kind of unbalanced right off the bat. And Orc Blood is stupid; more of a hindrance than a bonus. The Darkvision is nice, but nothing a Dwarf in the party can't take care of.
Themightybiggun 03-26-07, 11:53 PM	ah, that kind of broken, yes, they are generally regarded as a bit weaker than the other +0 LA races, not as bad as Half-Elves, but their stats basically force them into the barbarian role.
JonnySpaz 03-26-07, 11:54 PM	Easy fix, give them Orc Double Axe as a martial weapon, +2 to intimidate and survival. Done.
Leress 03-26-07, 11:54 PM	You are right they are, any many have tried to fix them some very complex, and other simple. Medium Size 30' movement Humanoid Type (Orc and Human subtype) Darkvision +2 Strength +2 to Intimidate, Gather Information, and Survival checks. Favored Classes: Assassin and Barbarian Automatic Languages: Orc, Common Bonus Languages: Any. This only is simple and I like it. Of course you can change it if you like. *Races of War is not a WOTC product
Arcane Guyver 03-27-07, 12:00 AM	Half-Orcs are underpowered. In my game I drop the Charisma penalty in exchange for a -1 racial penalty to Diplomacy, Gather Information, and Handle Animal, and give them weapon familiarity with the orc double axe. The former change is because #1) I don't see any reason for it in the fluff, #2) it sucks that they aren't that viable as spellcasters, and #3) an Int penalty is easily the equivalent of a like Str bonus. The latter change is just because nobody friggin' uses orc double axes.
ClementWillowbreaker 03-27-07, 12:18 AM	I give them familiarity with orcish double axes, +2 to saves vs disease, and +2 to Intimidate. They were so busy justifying that -4 mental is worth +2 Str (which is about true) that they forgot to give the Half-orc racial features, you know, like the nine that dwarves get.
Aryxbez 03-27-07, 12:29 AM	I would give them the axe, but it seems only elite orc types actually wield it. to give them martial equivalence Proficiency pretty pretty much tells that every orc wields it. But then I realize you need the TWF feats to make it usable so actually I think I will give them auto proficiency. Aren't the problems the following?: 1.to penalties for one benefit in ability scores 2.No racial abilities compared to other races 3.Orc blood meaning pretty much nothing 4. Favored class:Barbarian my thoughts to fix these: 1. give +2 con to counter balance the mental scores or better yet, to choose either a -2 int or a -2 cha 2.Give Orc double ax as martial as suggested 3.Give bonuses for diplomacy against orcs, obviously qualifty for any orc only PRCs ,items,weapons and Feats. 4.Give favored class:Any like the humans have it. I think my first and fourth suggestions are the 2 good steps forward.
Karak_Nechot 03-27-07, 12:36 AM	Dwarves get nine mostly crappy abilities, and a huge nerf from their speed. Not to mention that Constitution is about the weakest stat to get a bonus to. You need to have a halfway decent Con (10+) to keep the effects of your HD, but having a really high Con does not help you all that much, unless your HD are truly huge, like barbarians or knights. And even then, having a higher Strength is still a higher priority, since you can't win a fight by simply staying up longer. You need to hit them back. Dwarves break even in my book, they get a lot in quantity, but suffer in quality for it. I wouldn't mind the half-orcs getting some additional non-combat abilities. The +2 to Intimidate is decent, as is the +2 vs. disease. I'm against adding anything to the combat capacity of the half-orc, as they have the highest melee damage output of all the core races. At low levels, a 18-20 Strength is going to own everything in sight, and even at higher levels, every two points of Strength just means they hit more often and deal more damage. (High level is terrible for melee classes, but that's a whole other issue that goes beyond just half-orcs.) I'm very much against giving them any sort of weapon familiarity, especially to something that can take full advantage of their Strength bonus like the orc-double axe. It can be used as a two-handed weapon for 1 1/2 Strength damage, or used as a double weapon for 1 + 1/2 Strength damage plus twice base damage by taking a -2 attack penalty. Honestly, it's not too bad in game until a half-orc with a 20 Strength shows up at level 1.
RorixBladewing 03-27-07, 12:36 AM	Most flavorful fix, in my opinion, is to give them Orcish Digestion. Allow your half-orcs to eat rotting or undercooked food, due to the hostile nature of the environment they grew up in.
Karak_Nechot 03-27-07, 12:38 AM	3.Give bonuses for diplomacy against orcs, obviously qualifty for any orc only PRCs ,items,weapons and Feats. Orc Blood. They already get that.
Aryxbez 03-27-07, 12:44 AM	Yes I know,but surely the first and fourth Idea I posted are good ideas?
Kineon_War 03-27-07, 12:52 AM	I hate Half-orcs. (My dog was savaged by one once :D ) In fact I try not to have them in my game but someone always wants one. I think they are a rip off of Tolkein. (Yes, I hate halflings too). I'd like to make hobgoblins more popular but the +1 level adjustment for nothing in particular makes it a hard sell. Hobgoblins rock!
Karak_Nechot 03-27-07, 01:01 AM	Yes I know,but surely the first and fourth Idea I posted are good ideas? You know, I'm oddly comfortable with the half-orc having a Favored Class: Any. They are still much more martially inclined and therefore would pick more martial classes to multiclass into, so I don't see a problem with it. I don't like the +2 to Con, since by the books, a +2 Str is worth a -2 to two mental ability scores. That, and the nightmare of a potential Barbarian with Str 20 Con 20 at 1st level really does not set well with me (Yes, I know he would probably suck in some other areas, but, who cares? He's got more than what he needs.) A bonus on Fort saves in some fashion would be nice. If anything, I really think some +2 bonuses to skills would be nice, especially some of the more 'rugged' ones, like +2 to Climb or Jump, and a +2 to Intimidate would really seem appropriate.
Karak_Nechot 03-27-07, 01:03 AM	I hate Half-orcs. (My dog was savaged by one once :D ) In fact I try not to have them in my game but someone always wants one. I think they are a rip off of Tolkein. (Yes, I hate halflings too). Umm, you do realize that the bulk of D&D, including ALL of the core races, are a rip off of Tolkien?
Strudel_Lumpycakes 03-27-07, 01:26 AM	Dwarves get nine mostly crappy abilities, and a huge nerf from their speed. Not to mention that Constitution is about the weakest stat to get a bonus to. You need to have a halfway decent Con (10+) to keep the effects of your HD, but having a really high Con does not help you all that much, unless your HD are truly huge, like barbarians or knights. And even then, having a higher Strength is still a higher priority, since you can't win a fight by simply staying up longer. You need to hit them back. Dwarves break even in my book, they get a lot in quantity, but suffer in quality for it. The nerf to speed only effects a dwarf if he chooses to wear light or no armor, so it rarely becomes an issue. Constitution might not be anyone's primary stat, but any adventurer with less than a 10 in con is dead in his boots, so no matter what class you pick, it will always be a boon. And on the contrary, the smaller your HD is, the more difference a con bonus will make. For example, a fighter with a +2 con bonus gets a 20% increase to his health, while a wizard receives a 50% increase with the same con score. And a dwarf's +2 bonus against spells isn't half bad either. While a half-orc does have more strength, a dwarf still gets proficiency with dwarven waraxes, which helps him pack a bit more offensive punch. (It only adds up to 1 more point of damage on average, but it is still comparable to a half-orc with a battleaxe) However, my biggest problem with half-orcs is not their lack of abilities but the class restrictions imposed upon them. The penalty to two mental attributes simply makes them second best at non-stompy classes. I would vote to get rid of the penalty to Charisma, and toss in a few fun abilities for flavor. However, I wouldn't give them a bonus to intimidate, mostly because the issue lies within the skill, not the race.
GhostStepper 03-27-07, 01:39 AM	Id say Con is one of the better abilities since every single class needs it. Even wizards and sorcerors, who arent untouchable at low levels, need to have as much hp as possible.
magenificent 03-27-07, 02:04 AM	Not to mention that Constitution is about the weakest stat to get a bonus to HA HA HA. Wait...Are you serious? Wow you're way off, Con is the one stat that every class cares equaly about. Con for cha (which is a dump stat for almost everyone) is a great trade. The speed penalty is what balances them, without it there racial mods are to good. Theres a table somewhere in the DMG (don't have my books ATM), guidelines for race building. It shows you what stat bonus is worth what penalty. Con is worth way more than Cha. To the OP, my suggestion would be to allow someone to play a full orc then. There LA +0, the only difference is they get better racial mods (+4 str, -2 all mental stats). As for the "usualy evil" part that people whine about, PCs are anything but usual.
Karak_Nechot 03-27-07, 02:20 AM	The nerf to speed only effects a dwarf if he chooses to wear light or no armor, so it rarely becomes an issue. Actually, it's an issue in my game right now. Even with haste up, the dwarven cleric has difficulty in reaching people to heal or buff in time. And where is it written that all dwarves will wear heavier than light armor? Dwarven rogues, monks and wizards don't exist? Constitution might not be anyone's primary stat, but any adventurer with less than a 10 in con is dead in his boots, so no matter what class you pick, it will always be a boon. Actually, in most cases, having a Con higher than 10-12 is a waste when you have the option to improve more directly useful stats. Yes, you don't want a Con lower than a 10, ever, but having a higher Con only helps a certain few classes, and even with them, Con is still going to usually be secondary. Take a dwarf barbarian with maxed out Con and compare it to a half-orc barbarian with maxed out Str. Tell me who is more effective. And on the contrary, the smaller your HD is, the more difference a con bonus will make. For example, a fighter with a +2 con bonus gets a 20% increase to his health, while a wizard receives a 50% increase with the same con score. All of which does not matter, since D&D does not deal damage in a percentage, but straight points. You take damage in the amounts like 5, 10, 30, or 57 hp all at once. A flatout higher base die is always going to help you more with a higher Con, and with a smaller Con, it's a serious waste of resources. You may gain 50% more of your normal hp with a +2 to Con, but that still only means you gain 1 hp per level. 1 hp per level is not going to help you with the amount of damage that is normally dealt when you have an average of 2.5 hp to begin with. And a dwarf's +2 bonus against spells isn't half bad either. That's one of the better dwarven abilities, but it's a highly passive and situational effect. Yes, it will help in the fight against the evil necromancer IF he targets you, but it's useless against a gorgon or a wyvern, or about 500 other creatures. While a half-orc does have more strength, a dwarf still gets proficiency with dwarven waraxes, which helps him pack a bit more offensive punch. (It only adds up to 1 more point of damage on average, but it is still comparable to a half-orc with a battleaxe) Actually, it isn't. Strength also adds to attack bonus, meaning a half-orc hits more often, the damage is multiplied with using two-handed weapons, and the damage applies to ANY melee weapon the half-orc uses, not just one weapon. However, my biggest problem with half-orcs is not their lack of abilities but the class restrictions imposed upon them. The penalty to two mental attributes simply makes them second best at non-stompy classes. I actually like that. I like that there's some races that are melee-centric. I know melee is weak at high levels, but that's another issue with the game. I would vote to get rid of the penalty to Charisma, and toss in a few fun abilities for flavor. However, I wouldn't give them a bonus to intimidate, mostly because the issue lies within the skill, not the race. Their ability score would be uneven, then. A +2 to Strength is worth two -2 to mental scores. I'm fine with giving them a few fun abilities that don't relate to combat. [qoute=GhostStepper] Id say Con is one of the better abilities since every single class needs it. Even wizards and sorcerors, who arent untouchable at low levels, need to have as much hp as possible.[/quote] Yeah, let's examine that for a moment. You pump up your Con to 20 for 9 hp. You face an orc. You lose initiative or fail to get your sleep or color spray off. The orc hits you and scores average damage, 9. You are disabled. If you do anything on your turn, you're most likely dying or possibly even dead. In any case, you're still taken out of the fight with one hit by a creature that is lower in CR than you. Wash, rinse, and repeat at every level. A slightly higher hp just does not make much difference for a caster. Point being, having low Con hurts you, but having a high Con usually does not help you unless you have a good base to build on, and even then it's not something you should focus on as a primary.
Dragonteuthis 03-27-07, 02:29 AM	You pump up your Con to 20 for 9 hp. Oh. All your games only ever take place at 1st level? That does explain your viewpoint.
Karak_Nechot 03-27-07, 02:30 AM	HA HA HA. Wait...Are you serious? Yes. Wow you're way off, Con is the ONE stat that EVERY class cares equaly about. Con for cha (which is a dump stat for almost everyone) is a great trade. Hmm, I guess you don't play any social interaction games, do you? But, you're right, most character care about it in the same way; nice to have, but not worth focusing on. In truth, the only thing that is really vital about Con is NOT having a low Con. You want average or higher, but having a high Con is usually not worth putting effort into unless you got something else going with it, like d12 HD. The speed penalty is what balances them, without it there racial mods are to good. Theres a table somewhere in the DMG (don't have my books ATM), guidelines for race building. It shows you what stat bonus is worth what penalty. Con is worth way more than Cha. Actually, it shows Con is worth EXACTLY the same as Charisma. However, you can always do more with Charisma. Two classes need Charisma heavily, the bard and the sorcerer (just keeping to the core), and other classes need at least a decent amount of it, such as the cleric and the rogue. Charisma affects more skills, including some damn powerful ones, like Use Magic Device and Bluff. Constitution improves Fort saves and hp, which is good, but no class abilities, and only one skill that, frankly, is only situtationally useful. To the OP, my suggestion would be to allow someone to play a full orc then. There LA +0, the only difference is they get better racial mods (+4 str, -2 all mental stats). As for the "usualy evil" part, PCs are anything but usual. And the light sensitivity.
Karak_Nechot 03-27-07, 02:37 AM	Oh. All your games only ever take place at 1st level? That does explain your viewpoint. Nope. Just an easy comparison. Got any evidence to show that high Con really does help casters, or just snide comments that make your argument weaker?
Lotus Crane 03-27-07, 02:43 AM	Constitution improves Fort saves and hp, which is good, but no class abilities, and only one skill that, frankly, is only situtationally useful. Con is actually the primary ability score for incarnum classes. It's also the most universally valued ability score; while it's not first priority for any character (except incarnum users), it's never a dump stat. Some spellcasters treat Str or Wis as dump stats, some warriors treat Dex or Int as dump stats, and practically everybody except bards, paladins, and sorcerers treat Cha as a dump stat, but nobody puts that 10 or 6 in Con.
kave99 03-27-07, 02:44 AM	just happened to have my old (OK really old!!!) players handbook out and flipped to 1/2 orc as i read threw this thread +1 str becomes +2 str this is a pretty good trade. in ad&d +1 str helped get you into the vastly important % str rating. now +2 str basically gives +1 to hit & damage +1 con becomes nothing in ad&d it might have got you +1 hit point per level -2 cha becomes -2cha and -2 int in ad&d cha was a dump stat for just about every character. only paladin, druid and bard required it and 1/2 orcs could not enter any of those classes.now it is important to say that in ad&d 1/2 orc were bard from taking spell casting classes save for vary low level clerics (4th) this sets up the reason for the -2 to int and cha to help dis-waded the would be 1/2 orc wizards and Sorcerer. in fact the most common class for a ad&d 1/2 orc was a assassin or a fighter /assassin the hole barbarian thing came much later and was part of the hole every race needs a a favored class and every class needs a favored race thing that replaced the stupid race/class limitations. 60' infravision becomes 60' darkvision no other core race was gimped in the conversion from ad&d to 3.5 as badly as the 1/2 orc. some how dwarves went from "because of their vary nature, dwarves are non-magical and do not ever use magical spells" to excellent candidates for wizards,warmages etc. to rectify this i would change the following to keep them away from spells( which is a huge disadvantage) +2 str +2 con -2 int -2 cha or to keep them balanced +2 str -2 int and change favored class to any +2 to intimidation and survival edit had this idea for the 1/2 orc +1 str +1 con -1int -1cha change favored class to any and leave the rest alone
Mystyc 03-27-07, 02:54 AM	You want average or higher, but having a high Con is usually not worth putting effort into unless you got something else going with it, like d12 HD. I do not understand this logic. As you were saying, you take damage in discrete packets -- 10 damage, or 7 damage, or 31 damage, or whatever. If you have a d12 hit die, you can already withstand more "packets" than average. It's the d4 and d6 classes who can be dropped by relatively few "packets," and who therefore need higher CON to improve survivability. You seem to think that extra hit points are better the more hit points you already have, which seems totally backwards to me.
Leress 03-27-07, 04:00 AM	the difference between d4 hit die and d6 hit die is 1 point. A d6 to d8, 1 point. A d8 to d10, 1 point. A d10 to d12 is 1 point. So the difference between a d4 to d12 is 4 points.
Forgember 03-27-07, 04:26 AM	Heres my simple fix, +2 Con and an aditional -2 Cha
magenificent 03-27-07, 05:01 AM	I was going to go through this point-by-point but these will do: Actually, it shows Con is worth EXACTLY the same as Charisma. Fair enough. However, I think Lotus Crane explained my logic nicely above. In truth, the only thing that is really vital about Con is NOT having a low Con. Can you say the same for charisma in the case of every class? Plenty of classes care absolutely nothing for Cha. The same cannot be said for Con. And the light sensitivity. I had forgotten about that yes. But its still a very minor penalty. Take the feat to negate it if need be. Never heard the drow complain though...
Spikes01k 03-27-07, 10:32 AM	Easy fix, give them Orc Double Axe as a martial weapon, +2 to intimidate and survival. Done. I second this. Anything more would be too much.
RobbyPants 03-27-07, 10:48 AM	A +2 to Strength is worth two -2 to mental scores. I'm fine with giving them a few fun abilities that don't relate to combat. That's basically just situational. Obviously, you couldn't reverse it to give +2 Int and +2 Cha with just -2 Str to balance it. It totally depends on what class you want to play. If you're playing a fighter-type, then the +2 to Str is going to help you more than the -2 Int and Cha will hurt you. Although if you were to play an arcane caster, you'd find this crippling. If I were playing a wizard, I'd totally take a -2 Str in place of a +2 Int. It all just depends on the situation.
Warforged Goblin 03-27-07, 10:57 AM	How about this: +2 Climb, Intimidate, Jump, Survival, and Swim +1 vs. diseases and ingested poisons +2 Str -2 Int OR -2 Cha Favored Class: Any Sound good?
Ventilatory_Threshold 03-27-07, 11:19 AM	How about this: +2 Climb, Intimidate, Jump, Survival, and Swim +1 vs. diseases and ingested poisons +2 Str -2 Int OR -2 Cha Favored Class: Any Sound good? I like that 'or' between Charisma and Intelligence. Makes for a customizable background.
Spikes01k 03-27-07, 11:49 AM	How about this: +2 Climb, Intimidate, Jump, Survival, and Swim +1 vs. diseases and ingested poisons +2 Str -2 Int OR -2 Cha Favored Class: Any Sound good? If you want something home-brew then thats fine. If you want something that *could* be official, its broken and over powered. You might get away if you changed that OR to an AND
Ventilatory_Threshold 03-27-07, 11:52 AM	If you want something home-brew then thats fine. If you want something that *could* be official, its broken and over powered. You might get away if you changed that OR to an AND If you're talking about the guidelines for balancing ability score adjustments in the DMG, they are horribly outdated. WotC doesn't even pay heed to them anymore.
Spikes01k 03-27-07, 11:59 AM	If you're talking about the guidelines for balancing ability score adjustments in the DMG, they are horribly outdated. WotC doesn't even pay heed to them anymore. Hmm you might be true. Have they listed some new guidelines?
DaidojiTaidoru 03-27-07, 12:53 PM	Hmm you might be true. Have they listed some new guidelines? I doubt it. There was a thread on the board a while back giving what players thought were the most useful stats and strength didn't often make the top 4. Depending on your class it can be good, or almost completely useless. Unlike like Con, Dex, Wis or Int which all have significant effects no matter your class.
Spikes01k 03-27-07, 03:05 PM	I doubt it. There was a thread on the board a while back giving what players thought were the most useful stats and strength didn't often make the top 4. Depending on your class it can be good, or almost completely useless. Unlike like Con, Dex, Wis or Int which all have significant effects no matter your class. You know that is reasonable and logical. Thanks for the pointers.
Karak_Nechot 03-27-07, 03:31 PM	Con is actually the primary ability score for incarnum classes. It's also the most universally valued ability score; while it's not first priority for any character (except incarnum users), it's never a dump stat. Some spellcasters treat Str or Wis as dump stats, some warriors treat Dex or Int as dump stats, and practically everybody except bards, paladins, and sorcerers treat Cha as a dump stat, but nobody puts that 10 or 6 in Con. Which is exactly my point. It's a stat you want to have a certain minimum in, but most classes don't need or even want to have a high Con, especially if your HD is small to begin with, because it simply does not matter. Who cares if your wizard has a +3 Con modifier, he's still going to drop pretty quickly when he starts taking damage. A barbarian, knight, and a few others, however, usually are going to last a few more hits, and having a high Con is usually worthwhile, but not enough to fully concentrate upon. Some incarnum users do use Con as a primary stat, so, yes, it's important for them. But that's, what, 2 classes out of something like 30 base classes? Not exactly a huge percentage there. I do not understand this logic. As you were saying, you take damage in discrete packets -- 10 damage, or 7 damage, or 31 damage, or whatever. If you have a d12 hit die, you can already withstand more "packets" than average. It's the d4 and d6 classes who can be dropped by relatively few "packets," and who therefore need higher CON to improve survivability. Well, the packet thing is totally correct. That's how the game works. What you're wrong on is that characters with low HD can't take many hits even with a high Con. A really high Con for them MAY give them an extra hit before they die. In most cases, it simply does not matter. The high Con synergizes well with the larger HD, adding to the already large number of hits that the character can take. Again, in reality, it may only be one more hit, but it will take more hits before that one more hit comes into play. You seem to think that extra hit points are better the more hit points you already have, which seems totally backwards to me. It depends on your goal. Your goal if you have small HD is usually to not get hit in the first place. If you have a large HD, you usually want to take the hits for the small HD. Con helps you if you take hits, sure, but it doesn't help all that much, and certainly not enough to make it worth investing in unless you have a good start on the taking hit department to begin with. Fair enough. However, I think Lotus Crane explained my logic nicely above. It's flawed logic, though. More characters care about a high Charisma than they care about a high Con. Sorcerer, bard, paladin, warlock, favored soul, etc. Again, I agree that Con is almost never a dump stat, but it's usually not worth heavily investing in. Can you say the same for charisma in the case of every class? Plenty of classes care absolutely nothing for Cha. The same cannot be said for Con. You're right in that. Constitution is an aberrant in the ability scores. You can't let it be too low in most cases, but you really don't get much for getting it super high. Yes, there are lot of classes that can leave Charisma as an 8 or the low roll. But there are plenty of classes that need Charisma to do well in their base abilities. That's normal for most classes and abilities. The fact that you need at least an average Con does not mean it is a powerful stat. If anything, that's the only reason why people DON'T use it as a dump stat. I had forgotten about that yes. But its still a very minor penalty. Take the feat to negate it if need be. Never heard the drow complain though... You just lost a feat to make up for a built-in penalty. Not a good use of a feat. That's basically just situational. Obviously, you couldn't reverse it to give +2 Int and +2 Cha with just -2 Str to balance it. It totally depends on what class you want to play. If you're playing a fighter-type, then the +2 to Str is going to help you more than the -2 Int and Cha will hurt you. Although if you were to play an arcane caster, you'd find this crippling. If I were playing a wizard, I'd totally take a -2 Str in place of a +2 Int. It all just depends on the situation. Well, I would go one step further and say that a +2 Strength will help a fighter far more than a +2 Int will help a wizard. When you get right down to it, the +2 Int only helps a wizard to 'hit' with some of his spells, with the DC increase. The Int does not increase the effect of the spell in most cases. (It does also increase the number of spells per day, but since you are limited in how many spells you can cast in a round, that usually does not help in a battle, at least until higher levels.) The +2 to Strength increases both the hit and the damage effect. Granted, at higher levels, this simply does not matter because spellcasting does everything a fighter-type can do, and a bag of chips. But that's a problem with the game in general, not just the ability scores.
DaidojiTaidoru 03-27-07, 03:50 PM	Well, the packet thing is totally correct. That's how the game works. What you're wrong on is that characters with low HD can't take many hits even with a high Con. A really high Con for them MAY give them an extra hit before they die. In most cases, it simply does not matter. The high Con synergizes well with the larger HD, adding to the already large number of hits that the character can take. Again, in reality, it may only be one more hit, but it will take more hits before that one more hit comes into play. It depends on your goal. Your goal if you have small HD is usually to not get hit in the first place. If you have a large HD, you usually want to take the hits for the small HD. Con helps you if you take hits, sure, but it doesn't help all that much, and certainly not enough to make it worth investing in unless you have a good start on the taking hit department to begin with. Hardly. As an adventurer NO MATTER HOW GOOD YOUR DEFENSE IS you will get hit eventually. Some kobold will roll a nat 20, or you'll be in an AOE effect and you will take damage. Every hitpoint matters. There is never a point where having more HP is somehow wasted, though there are bad tradeoffs like toughness. Thus a high con is good for everyone. And if you don't believe me you can ask my 10 Con bard, who is desperately searching for a ring of evation to keep from being killed by fireballs. Well, I would go one step further and say that a +2 Strength will help a fighter far more than a +2 Int will help a wizard. When you get right down to it, the +2 Int only helps a wizard to 'hit' with some of his spells, with the DC increase. The Int does not increase the effect of the spell in most cases. (It does also increase the number of spells per day, but since you are limited in how many spells you can cast in a round, that usually does not help in a battle, at least until higher levels.) The +2 to Strength increases both the hit and the damage effect. With x4 power attack that +1 strength mod is worth a wopping +5 damage. Wooo. Edit: By burning MORE feats you can raise it up to +15. Of course you're 9th level by now what with shock trooper and all... With absolutely no feats or classes required a +1 casting mod is another spell per level (and increasingly better spells too) and a 5% increase in the number of times your spell instantly removes from combat the poor loser you hit with it. Also if your casting stat is Int or Wis you get either a bonus to skill points or Will saves. Neither of which are anything to laugh at. Casting Stat boosts are better.
Nadaka 03-27-07, 03:54 PM	Half orcs get a lot of orcish style things. But they gain nothing that identifies them as human. Half orcs with their strength actually make decent melee combatants as charisma and marginally intelligence is less important to these types. However, in every other capacity they lag far behind all the other races (except half-elves, but that is another topic). So I would propose a bonus that reflects human heritage, but isn't specifically a combat bonus. I would give them +1 skill point per level (4 at first).
Angel Black 03-27-07, 04:01 PM	Variant half orc traits: Weapon Familiarity - Can treat one martial weapon as a simple weapon. Scent - Can take Scent as one of his bonus feats(those granted by their number of HD) Orc charisma - They got +1 in Charisma based skill rolls against orcs. Intimidate bonus- They got +2 in Intimidate rolls.
Karak_Nechot 03-27-07, 04:25 PM	Hardly. As an adventurer NO MATTER HOW GOOD YOUR DEFENSE IS you will get hit eventually. Some kobold will roll a nat 20, or you'll be in an AOE effect and you will take damage. Every hitpoint matters. There is never a point where having more HP is somehow wasted, though there are bad tradeoffs like toughness. Thus a high con is good for everyone. And if you don't believe me you can ask my 10 Con bard, who is desperately searching for a ring of evation to keep from being killed by fireballs. So...if your argument is that it's his Con that is the problem, why isn't he going after items to increase Constitution? Is it because he realizes that an item that helps him avoid damage altogether is more useful than an item that increases the amount of damage he takes? With x4 power attack that +1 strength mod is worth a wopping +5 damage. Wooo. Actually, that would be 9 damage for a net -3 to attack. That's pretty good, actually. Definitely Wooo-worthy. Edit: By burning MORE feats you can raise it up to +15. Of course you're 9th level by now what with shock trooper and all... Exactly. A higher Strength both increases the chance you have to hit and the damage you do. It synergizes fairly well with Power Attack and Shock Trooper, at least up until higher levels when melee simply breaks down. With absolutely no feats or classes required a +1 casting mod is another spell per level (and increasingly better spells too) and a 5% increase in the number of times your spell instantly removes from combat the poor loser you hit with it. Until you get REALLY high bonuses, it's only one more spell per spell level, meaning that the wizard can be very effective for 2 or 3 encounters as opposed to just 1 or 2, depending on if it's an odd or even level. It's not that the bonus spell is not worthwhile, just that it's not as directly useful as, say, adding damage to every hit you make. The +1 to DC is the real important part of caster boosts. It's equivalent to a +1 to hit for melee classes. Also if your casting stat is Int or Wis you get either a bonus to skill points or Will saves. Neither of which are anything to laugh at. Oh, that's definitely true. That's why I consider them slightly better than Charisma. Casting Stat boosts are better. Only for that particular sort of caster.
Karak_Nechot 03-27-07, 04:32 PM	Half orcs get a lot of orcish style things. But they gain nothing that identifies them as human. Half orcs with their strength actually make decent melee combatants as charisma and marginally intelligence is less important to these types. However, in every other capacity they lag far behind all the other races (except half-elves, but that is another topic). So I would propose a bonus that reflects human heritage, but isn't specifically a combat bonus. I would give them +1 skill point per level (4 at first). I think a little too powerful, perhaps stepping on the toes of the human too much. But I do like the idea of skill points. Maybe a slower rate? 2 skill points at 1st level and 1 point at every even level? Variant half orc traits: Weapon Familiarity - Can treat one martial weapon as a simple weapon. Scent - Can take Scent as one of his bonus feats(those granted by their number of HD) Orc charisma - They got +1 in Charisma based skill rolls against orcs. Intimidate bonus- They got +2 in Intimidate rolls. All good ideas. I particularly like the idea of a half-orc cleric with a greataxe.
Count Arioch the 28th 03-27-07, 04:33 PM	In my opinion, the +2 str/ -2 cha and int isn't really a huge deal, as stats aren't really as important as people assume. What's more important is "flavor" abilities, surprisingly enough. The human bonus feat and extra skill points are, in my opinion, the best deal out of the PHB races, followed by the dwarf's save bonus to magical effects and poison, which really translates to +2 saves in a majority of occasions. (Exceptions exist, but my experience has told me that it's not as frequent as magic or poison.) What do half-orcs have? darkvision, and orc blood which usually is a hinderance rather than a boon. (Which also goes into my opinion that hobgoblins should be LA +0, because in my experience humans are flat out superior to hobgoblins despite their slightly better stats. But that is merely my opinion, and I'm not going to bother changing anyone else's mind, since a majority of people put too much emphasis in raw stats rather than what the race actually brings to the table)
Arcane Guyver 03-27-07, 04:52 PM	Half orcs get a lot of orcish style things. But they gain nothing that identifies them as human. I sort of disagree there. As they are now, half-orcs show their humanity by being #1) listed as a PC race, and #2) not being COMPLETELY shoehorned into the role of barbarian like full orcs. Full orcs are totally inept at spellcasting, but are tremendously strong; human blood dillutes some of the orcish strength, but also removes many of their downsides. At least, that's how it's supposed to work. The -2 for both Int and Cha is a bit too much, and has a habit of making new players think that a Cha penalty means a race is ugly (which the Monster Manual unfortunately supports, with unfair stat penalties for goblinoids and tieflings). I do agree with the point made earlier that Strength is equivalent to Charisma. Everyone needs Strength (for physically attacking) just about as much as everyone needs Charisma (for social encounters). For melee warriors, Strength is a must-have stat; for most arcane casters, Charisma is a must-have stat. For everyone else, they're dump stats.
DaidojiTaidoru 03-27-07, 05:00 PM	So...if your argument is that it's his Con that is the problem, why isn't he going after items to increase Constitution? Is it because he realizes that an item that helps him avoid damage altogether is more useful than an item that increases the amount of damage he takes? Actually he has gotten stuff that boosts his Con. Sadly at his level it's only a +2 item so it's not that wonderous, but it's better then +1 AC for him because when the Greataxe wielding Barbarian rolls a crit he only goes to -4 instead of autochunking, and now he would survive a twinned fireball hitting the party, which he didn't last time even though he made both saves. Actually, that would be 9 damage for a net -3 to attack. That's pretty good, actually. Definitely Wooo-worthy. No. +2 strength means you can safely reduce your attack by 1 more. Total including damage bonus from strength +5. And +9 for -3 is not all that great. Until you get REALLY high bonuses, it's only one more spell per spell level, meaning that the wizard can be very effective for 2 or 3 encounters as opposed to just 1 or 2, depending on if it's an odd or even level. It's not that the bonus spell is not worthwhile, just that it's not as directly useful as, say, adding damage to every hit you make. So the bonuses peter out at high levels. Oh noes. Sames true for all stats (excepting Con). The +1 to DC is the real important part of caster boosts. It's equivalent to a +1 to hit for melee classes. It's way better then that. Hitting 5% more often is never as good as instantly defeating a target 5% more often. Oh, that's definitely true. That's why I consider them slightly better than Charisma. Well we agree on one thing at least. Only for that particular sort of caster. So. Strength is only important for melee, and unlike Wis and Int nothing else. Why should it be considered as good a stat as them?
Rhuxley 03-27-07, 05:00 PM	Easiest fix i can think of is lose the -2 cha.
Karak_Nechot 03-27-07, 05:46 PM	Actually he has gotten stuff that boosts his Con. Sadly at his level it's only a +2 item so it's not that wonderous, but it's better then +1 AC for him because when the Greataxe wielding Barbarian rolls a crit he only goes to -4 instead of autochunking, and now he would survive a twinned fireball hitting the party, which he didn't last time even though he made both saves. So, again, you're proving my point... Are you meaning to do this? A +2 to Con really does not help all that much in the game, as you have just demonstrated. Having a 10 or higher Con is almost totally required, but having a higher Con does not help you out as much as other effects do. No. +2 strength means you can safely reduce your attack by 1 more. Total including damage bonus from strength +5. And +9 for -3 is not all that great. Okay, I think you're mixing things up. Consider a human and a half-orc at 4th level with Power Attack. They both have the same starting stats, with the half-orc's +2 to Strength added on top. They both Power Attack for -4 (for reasons I'm not clear on), and the end effect is the human has a -4 to hit and a +8 to damage above his base damage bonuses, while the half-orc has a -3 to hit for an additional +9 (possibly +10 at certain points) above his base damage bonuses. -4 to hit +8 damage compared to -3 to hit +9 to damage. How can you tell me that's not all that great? So the bonuses peter out at high levels. Oh noes. Sames true for all stats (excepting Con). Exactly. Con peters out at a much lower level, unless you have a truly high Con and the proper HD to synergize with it. Do you ever hear about a wizard or rogue bragging about his 30 Con at level 20? It's way better then that. Hitting 5% more often is never as good as instantly defeating a target 5% more often. Not all spells are save or dies, and not all spells even have saves. That +1 to DC is not going to help with a magic missile or a scorching ray. Yes, when a caster can instantly defeat an opponent, it's good, and pretty potent. But that doesn't always happen, and even the +1 DC does not make it that much more of a certainty. So. Strength is only important for melee, and unlike Wis and Int nothing else. Why should it be considered as good a stat as them? More classes use melee, including a good many spellcasters, the effects of Strength and even Dexterity are much more dramatic for their given classes than a spell casting ability. A bonus to Strength gives far more power to a melee character than a bonus to a caster's spellcasting ability, which is more required to keep the save DCs up in the game than it is to make them powerful.
DaidojiTaidoru 03-27-07, 06:13 PM	So, again, you're proving my point... Are you meaning to do this? A +2 to Con really does not help all that much in the game, as you have just demonstrated. Having a 10 or higher Con is almost totally required, but having a higher Con does not help you out as much as other effects do. I'm sorry, how is not being dead not all that important? The difference between dead and not dead is a whole lot in my mind. Okay, I think you're mixing things up. Consider a human and a half-orc at 4th level with Power Attack. They both have the same starting stats, with the half-orc's +2 to Strength added on top. They both Power Attack for -4 (for reasons I'm not clear on), and the end effect is the human has a -4 to hit and a +8 to damage above his base damage bonuses, while the half-orc has a -3 to hit for an additional +9 (possibly +10 at certain points) above his base damage bonuses. -4 to hit +8 damage compared to -3 to hit +9 to damage. How can you tell me that's not all that great? Yes. It's not that great. +1 attack, +1 damage = not that great. +0 attack +5 damage = not that great either. At least not past level 3. Exactly. Con peters out at a much lower level, unless you have a truly high Con and the proper HD to synergize with it. Do you ever hear about a wizard or rogue bragging about his 30 Con at level 20? Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong. Con is constantly useful because +1 hitpoint per level means you're always getting something. +1 bonus to AC? Always +1 to AC. +1 hitpoint per level? Keeps getting better every level. Not all spells are save or dies, and not all spells even have saves. That +1 to DC is not going to help with a magic missile or a scorching ray. Yes, when a caster can instantly defeat an opponent, it's good, and pretty potent. But that doesn't always happen, and even the +1 DC does not make it that much more of a certainty. If you're using Magic Missiles and Scorching Rays you're playing poorly, your enemy is weak to those spells, or something has gone wrong. And even assuming you have all spells with no saves, every additional 1st level spell is another Enlarge Person you can toss out per day. Nothing to scoff at. More classes use melee, including a good many spellcasters, the effects of Strength and even Dexterity are much more dramatic for their given classes than a spell casting ability. A bonus to Strength gives far more power to a melee character than a bonus to a caster's spellcasting ability, which is more required to keep the save DCs up in the game than it is to make them powerful. Hardly. Most builds can leave strength at 10 and move on with thier lives secure in the knowledge wraithstrike or divine power will get them through the day. Or turning into a giant bear, that works too. Meanwhile Every +1 in casting stat brings you closer to having unresitable spells. And gets you more spells. And if your playing one of the big 3 means more skills or more will save.
Nadaka 03-27-07, 06:34 PM	I sort of disagree there. As they are now, half-orcs show their humanity by being #1) listed as a PC race, and #2) not being COMPLETELY shoehorned into the role of barbarian like full orcs. Full orcs are totally inept at spellcasting, but are tremendously strong; human blood dillutes some of the orcish strength, but also removes many of their downsides. listing as a PC race means nothing. How is a half orc less shoe-horned into barbarian than a regular orc? Reducing the orcish abilities of a half orc isn't giving them human abilities. Its just making them worse at the only niche they have, while still retaining non-functionality in other areas. The only area where the change is wisdom really helps horcs is with monks as cha is to important to a cleric to skimp on. With extra skill points they have something that ties them to humanity and fixes a flaw that makes them poor rangers, rogues and other skill based classes. I think a little too powerful, perhaps stepping on the toes of the human too much. But I do like the idea of skill points. Maybe a slower rate? 2 skill points at 1st level and 1 point at every even level? From a power standpoint it is merely correcting the -1 skill points they get for having -2 int. So a half orc with my modification will still have less skillpoints than a human, but the same skillpoints as any other race. This does not add directly to their combat power, but instead gives them an increased flexibility of role. The Half orc ranger, rogue or monk becomes more viable.
StalkerEntreri 03-27-07, 06:55 PM	I would like to thank everyone for what you have come up with. I like most of the fixes and all seem viable to use in certain situations. I still think the easiest fix is to make it so that the Half-Orc chooses which 2 mental ability scores to take a penalty to. Why shouldn't a half-orc make as good of a sorcerer as a human or elf? I can just as easily see a "Cool" half orc (taking away the -2 CHA for -2 INT and WIS). As it is not hard to see a half-orc low on common sense and perceptions.
Strudel_Lumpycakes 03-27-07, 07:03 PM	Well, the packet thing is totally correct. That's how the game works. What you're wrong on is that characters with low HD can't take many hits even with a high Con. A really high Con for them MAY give them an extra hit before they die. In most cases, it simply does not matter. The high Con synergizes well with the larger HD, adding to the already large number of hits that the character can take. Again, in reality, it may only be one more hit, but it will take more hits before that one more hit comes into play. The thing is, a character with a small HD will get more mileage out of that extra hit, because they have less hits in the "bank". That's why toughness is a much better choice for an elvin wizard than a dwarven fighter. To the dwarf, there isn't much difference between being able to take 5 or 6 hits, but to the elf there is a huge difference between being able to withstand 1 or 2. Actually, it's an issue in my game right now. Even with haste up, the dwarven cleric has difficulty in reaching people to heal or buff in time. And where is it written that all dwarves will wear heavier than light armor? Dwarven rogues, monks and wizards don't exist? You're cleric would still have the same problem if he was any other race and wearing heavy or medium armor. Even more so if it was a small race. And actually, as I have never seen anyone play a dwarf rogue, monk, or wizard, I would say no, they don't. But theoretically, if they did, there are still reasons to play those classes as a dwarf. For example, as monks are so often pushed into the "I whack mages" role, the spell resistance comes in handy. In addition, the speed penalty hurts monks less, as by the time they reach high levels, they have so much movement they hardly know what to do with it. Anyway, as I stated before, my issue is mostly that half-orcs are restricted in class selection, and lack flavorful abilities.
Spikes01k 03-27-07, 07:06 PM	In my opinion, the +2 str/ -2 cha and int isn't really a huge deal, as stats aren't really as important as people assume. What's more important is "flavor" abilities, surprisingly enough. The human bonus feat and extra skill points are, in my opinion, the best deal out of the PHB races, followed by the dwarf's save bonus to magical effects and poison, which really translates to +2 saves in a majority of occasions. (Exceptions exist, but my experience has told me that it's not as frequent as magic or poison.) What do half-orcs have? darkvision, and orc blood which usually is a hinderance rather than a boon. (Which also goes into my opinion that hobgoblins should be LA +0, because in my experience humans are flat out superior to hobgoblins despite their slightly better stats. But that is merely my opinion, and I'm not going to bother changing anyone else's mind, since a majority of people put too much emphasis in raw stats rather than what the race actually brings to the table) Nah I completely agree with you! What they need if flavor abilitie/s.
Engilbrand 03-27-07, 08:01 PM	I submit that the table in the DMG is ridiculous and outdated. I think most people agree that +2 STR is NOT balanced by -2 INT and CHA. I actually think that all stats should be traded on a one for one basis. The possible exception would be CHA. CHA is the Divination school of abilities. It gets occassional use, but it's not really worth enough to trade out any of the heavy hitters. For the half-orc, I could see giving them there current stats, but they also gain favored class: any and can choose between extra skill points or a bonus feat. That will up there power a bit and add some human flavor to the mix. For the record, I think that calling a number of things "broken" or "unbalaced" is absolutely ridiculous. Part of me is thinking about allowing Hobgoblins as a LA 0 race.
StalkerEntreri 03-27-07, 08:10 PM	I don't believe I have taken much of a look at the Hobgoblin race; but from what I remember I think allowing it as a player race with +0 doesn't seem like too much of a stretch. And I also wonder why Drow get +2 LA; they're slightly more powerful than other races; but not that much more powerful
AMGriffin 03-27-07, 08:25 PM	The half-orc POSSIBLY could be feasible as a PC if everyone only played PHB races, but that never happens anymore, and from a flavor standpoint, their stats are very lackluster. I've though quite a bit on half-orcs. First off, I don't like the idea of no charisma penalty. After all, the half-orc is a social outcast who probably has dealt with being called "monster" or "weakling" all his life, he's most likely gonna be reclusive and sullen, or just brooding and violent... both of which aren't the most charismatic of personas. I also don't like constitution bonuses OR weapon proficiencies, it doesn't really address the problem of the half-orc anyway which is making them a more diverse PC. The wepon proficiency also fails to consider the possibility the half-orc was raised among humans. The simplest fix I can image is icing the intelligence penalty and giving them a +2 racial bonus on saves against fear (or maybe disease) and then +2 racial bonuses on survival and intimidate checks. From there you can make "any" their favored class. Perhaps this is deviating from the norm, but what about removing their INT and CHA penalties and giving them a dexterity penalty? That would allow for WAY more leeway in giving half-orcs racial traits. Half-orc A • +2 Strength, -2 Charisma • Medum size, 30 feet base land speed • Darkvision out to 30 feet. • +2 racial bonus on saves against fear. • +2 racial bonus on intimidate and survival checks. • Automatic languages: Common, Orc Bonus languages: Any. • Favored Class: Any. Half-orc B • +2 Strength, -2 Dexterity • Medum size, 30 feet base land speed • Darkvision out to 60 feet. • +2 racial bonus on saves against fear and disease. • +2 racial bonus on intimidate and survival checks. • Half-orcs may choose one +2/+2 skill bonus feat at first level. • -1 penalty on diplomacy, gather information, and bluff checks. • Automatic languages: Common, Orc Bonus languages: Any. • Favored Class: Any. Boom.
ninjarabbit 03-27-07, 08:47 PM	Personally I think half orcs are balanced as long as you allow racial paragon levels from Unearthed Arcana and racial subsitution levels from Races of Destiny. Remember that half orc paragon is the only way a lawful character can rage.
StalkerEntreri 03-27-07, 08:51 PM	I was also thinking why not give the Half-orcs something like "Rage 1/day" as racial. Therefore they could become fighters; and take extra rage. seems plausible to me. I think my favorite so far was the bonuses to fear; and the ability to eat undercooked/raw food
Kadrimdorian_Mage 03-28-07, 12:03 AM	Umm, you do realize that the bulk of D&D, including ALL of the core races, are a rip off of Tolkien? The genre FANTASY is pretty much a Tolkien rip-off. Back to buisness. Half Orcs are fine as they are. Flavor-wise, don't Half Orcs feel like Half Orcs? The plusses to intimidate meke sence, and if you want them in your game, by all means, go ahead. I don't care. If I were DMing a game with a half orc, he would deffinetly be getting a minor power boost as far as skills go.
Arcane Guyver 03-28-07, 12:59 AM	listing as a PC race means nothing. Well, it used to mean something, before the days of level adjustment and people playing monsters and crap. How is a half orc less shoe-horned into barbarian than a regular orc? +4 Str, -2 Int, Wis & Cha: what sort of classes do you think an orc can pull off well? Barbarian, Fighter, Ranger, Rogue. +2 Str, -2 Int & Cha: As the regular orc, plus Cleric, Druid, Monk, and possibly Paladin. Get rid of the Cha penalty and only the Wizard would remain as a suboptimal choice for this race. Reducing the orcish abilities of a half orc isn't giving them human abilities. Its just making them worse at the only niche they have, while still retaining non-functionality in other areas. From a base PHB-only perspective, their niche is The Strong Guy with 30-ft. speed and darkvision. No LA +0 race really needs a +4 in one stat, and a -2 in three other stats sucks balls. There's a good solid reason why a 'watered-down orc' made it into the PHB and not the full-blooded goobers.
Mystyc 03-28-07, 01:55 AM	Having a 10 or higher Con is almost totally required, but having a higher Con does not help you out as much as other effects do. I think your analysis is fine, but your conclusions are a little flawed. You are observing that everyone generally wants at least 10-12 CON, but almost nobody really needs to put that 17 or 18 into it. Quite true. However, that doesn't mean a race that grants a CON bonus is worse than races that grant other bonuses. Remember, everyone wants a 10-12. By having a bonus, you can spend 2 less points of point buy on CON, or drop that 9 there instead of the 14 you want for something else. It's not always perfect for optimization, but at least it's always useful, whereas many racial traits are totally irrelevant for certain classes.
danielinthewolvesden 03-28-07, 02:29 AM	You are right they are, any many have tried to fix them some very complex, and other simple. Favored Classes: Assassin and Barbarian This only is simple and I like it. Of course you can change it if you like. You understand that every race has Assassin (and nigh every other PrC) as a favoured class? Darkvision is a very nice boon for the half-orc.
Leress 03-28-07, 04:39 AM	You understand that every race has Assassin (and nigh every other PrC) as a favoured class? Darkvision is a very nice boon for the half-orc. If you read where I got it from Assassin is a base class. http://bb.bbboy.net/thegamingden-viewthread?forum=1&thread=723 That is why I added the provision.
Ogrebear 03-28-07, 09:02 AM	The half-orc POSSIBLY could be feasible as a PC if everyone only played PHB races, but that never happens anymore, and from a flavor standpoint, their stats are very lackluster. I've though quite a bit on half-orcs. It one of those topies that refuses to die simply cos the PHB Half Orc is so amazingly badly written esp. compared to stuff in the MM and SS and tone of other stuff, as discussed many times before. First off, I don't like the idea of no charisma penalty. After all, the half-orc is a social outcast who probably has dealt with being called "monster" or "weakling" all his life, he's most likely gonna be reclusive and sullen, or just brooding and violent... both of which aren't the most charismatic of personas. Not forgetting their looks which is part of cha along with what you outlined. I also don't like constitution bonuses OR weapon proficiencies, it doesn't really address the problem of the half-orc anyway which is making them a more diverse PC. The weapon proficiency also fails to consider the possibility the half-orc was raised among humans. Agreed. Con bonus is nice but does not really expand the Half Orc's role which is the entire problem. The simplest fix I can image is icing the intelligence penalty and giving them a +2 racial bonus on saves against fear (or maybe disease) and then +2 racial bonuses on survival and intimidate checks. From there you can make "any" their favored class. I would also remove the Orc blood trait or add Human blood to it. I think I would add extra +2 skill points and +2 points per level. Perhaps this is deviating from the norm, but what about removing their INT and CHA penalties and giving them a dexterity penalty? That would allow for WAY more leeway in giving half-orcs racial traits. That would make sense given their description as 'heavily muscled' - though I think you would have to add some skill penalties in to empathise the effect of Half Orc cha without a penalty e.g. -2 diplomacy etc. Half-orc A Half-orc B I prefer B but with some of the ideas I mention above.
Rogue Shadows 03-28-07, 10:21 AM	My favorite thing to do was give them an ability I call "Intimidating Presense" Intimidating Presence (Ex): Half-orcs (and orcs) are imposing, despite their lack of force of personality. A half-orc (and an orc) may use their Strength modifier rather then their Charisma modifier when determining Intimidate bonuses.
AMGriffin 03-28-07, 11:54 AM	Not forgetting their looks which is part of cha along with what you outlined. I don't think looks are so much a big part of it anymore, or else half-fiends and the like wouldn't have charisma bonuses. I would also remove the Orc blood trait or add Human blood to it. I think I would add extra +2 skill points and +2 points per level. I forgot to mention that half-orcs (along with half-elves and half-ogres) count as humans with all effects related to race as well as Orc.