Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Toombs79 03-10-08, 11:45 AM	I know in the monster's manual it states that Kobolds are humanoids, but I have also read elsewhere that Kobolds are the lowest form of Dragon. I didn't see any reference to Kobolds in the Draconomicon, tho admitantly I didn't scour the pages. The reason I ask is I'm making a Kobold character with delusions of dragondom and would like to take a feat from the draconomicon restricted to Dragon type creatures.
Kursk 03-10-08, 11:48 AM	but I have also read elsewhere that Kobolds are the lowest form of Dragon. Actually, the common fence lizard is considered to be the "lowest form of Dragon".
Malchius 03-10-08, 11:49 AM	There are certain Kobolds that are Dragons, this is achieved by taking a feat called Dragonwrought, details are in Races of The Dragon(a very good book, and the main source for Koboldness).
Banatine 03-10-08, 11:49 AM	According to races of the dragon, Kobolds are Humanoid (Reptilian), with the dragonblood subtype. However, there is a feat in the book that changes their type to dragon.
M-bark 03-10-08, 11:49 AM	Kobolds are only very rarely mentioned in the Draconomicon. That they speak Draconic and are oftentimes minions of dragons. As far as I know, though, they are certainly not dragons, although they have a few draconic powers. I think their relation to dragons is as strong as a human sorcerer's or a troglodyte's.
ArochanoX 03-10-08, 12:35 PM	In Races of the Dragon, kobolds were "upgraded" to having dragonblood subtype. The subtype itself has nothing draconic, (except the name) but it grants access to some nice dragon themed feats. In the same book is mentioned that kobolds have the same age categories of dragons (from wyrmling to older forms) even though the total age of the kobold is nowhere near over 1000 years. In the same book is presented a feat "dragonwrought" that makes your kobold a dragon (basically a true dragon as it also has dragon age categories). This grants kobolds some nice immunities and other abilities related to dragon type. As you've already noticed, some feats from draconomicon can be applied to a kobold that has taken dragonwrought feat at 1st level. Just don't mess with the rule from draconomicon that says "any dragon of adult or older age category can take epic feats", as it would apply to dragonwrought kobold.
Centor 03-10-08, 12:47 PM	However, being a DragonWrought Kobold will allow you to take dragon feats because your subtype changes to dragon. You also can get a nifty and usable set of wings. Also since they age like dragons you can go Venerable and gain a free +3 to Int Wis and Cha, no penalty. Also take a look at the feat Dragon Knowledge; it's hard to get with a 19 int but pretty awesome still. This has al sorts of brokenness especially if you do this with a dragonfire adept build. Have fun!
ArochanoX 03-10-08, 01:23 PM	However, being a DragonWrought Kobold will allow you to take dragon feats because your subtype changes to dragon. You also can get a nifty and usable set of wings. Also since they age like dragons you can go Venerable and gain a free +3 to Int Wis and Cha, no penalty. Also take a look at the feat Dragon Knowledge; it's hard to get with a 19 int but pretty awesome still. This has al sorts of brokenness especially if you do this with a dragonfire adept build. Have fun! Actually dragonwrought won't give you usable wings. Draconic flight (or some feat with similar name) from Races of the Dragon gives wings. Otherwise, you're correct: dragons won't get aging penalties though they get the bonuses.
Centor 03-10-08, 02:24 PM	Your right, I was thinking of the picture from the Races of Dragons.
Ace_of_time 03-10-08, 02:59 PM	Ok first at first level you have to take DW feat from ROD book. That changes your type to DRAGON. Then you can take the feats for just dragons. Note that not all those feats require dragons. Now the easiest way may be that but there is a better way. Go dusk blade/ Dragon Disciple kobold. Then on your next feat level pick up dragon breath. This way will give you everything that makes a dragon. Plus the str boost from the pro class counter the minus you take from the start.
Centor 03-10-08, 03:58 PM	I disagree, DFA is much cooler than a duskblade. You get a progressivly higher breath damage. and you never, NEVER, have to make an attack role. plus you get some really fun invocations that let you do just about anything. I've played both and while duskblade has some really cool flavor (which I would not think would work for a Kobold) DFA is just so much cooler (if you can get over yourself needing to do damage every turn). They are really a controler/support/utility character.
Ace_of_time 03-10-08, 05:09 PM	Duskblade lets the people who likes to play the weak looking kobold that rips you a new one. DFA?? Can't figure what that means. Might not even have that book. I was just trying to point out the feat doesn't make him a dragon just changes his type. If all wants is to get the feats it will work. Note: most think of kobolds as weak on melee and not fit for the build. The build adds +8 str total at the end and takes the -2 off con plus int and chr bonuses. I put one of my high rolls like 16+ on str for this build. Some play with points buy and the build is less appealing because of the point investment to over come -4 str.
Toombs79 03-10-08, 05:39 PM	Thank you all for the response. I never thought to look in Races of Dragon (Duhhh me) but I will. The character I'm making is a Kobold Rogue/Sorcerer. The story is he was a janitor for a red dragon and severely abused. One day he started to display magical properties and came to the realisation that me must be a dragon as well, since his master can do the same thing. At his level (Rog3/Soc7 for now, I still havn't looked at RoD) he's started a coalition of races who are dragons but not recognized as such. He travels with his familiar, a Pseudodragon (Who insists on being referred to as a "Purple Dragon") and wants to unite all the sub-dragon species under one brotherhood. Think a trades union of dragaon-like species. He's pursuing the sorcerer thing in hopes focusing on magic will some day bring out his inner dragon. For story purposes I should probably take the Dragon Disciple class, but I really don't want to harm my spell casting capabilities that mcuh. Rogue I can tolerate becuase I love the idea of using sneak attack with ray spells. So that's the idea. I will have to work in Dragonwrought to make him more a dragon than a humanoid.
Radiun 03-10-08, 05:45 PM	DFA?? Can't figure what that means. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060912a&page=2
Space_Dragon 03-10-08, 07:41 PM	The character I'm making is a Kobold Rogue/Sorcerer. The story is he was a janitor for a red dragon and severely abused. One day he started to display magical properties and came to the realisation that me must be a dragon as well, since his master can do the same thing. Lawl Abe's Odyssey.
Ace_of_time 03-11-08, 08:59 AM	Thank you all for the response. I never thought to look in Races of Dragon (Duhhh me) but I will. The character I'm making is a Kobold Rogue/Sorcerer. The story is he was a janitor for a red dragon and severely abused. One day he started to display magical properties and came to the realisation that me must be a dragon as well, since his master can do the same thing. At his level (Rog3/Soc7 for now, I still havn't looked at RoD) he's started a coalition of races who are dragons but not recognized as such. He travels with his familiar, a Pseudodragon (Who insists on being referred to as a "Purple Dragon") and wants to unite all the sub-dragon species under one brotherhood. Think a trades union of dragaon-like species. He's pursuing the sorcerer thing in hopes focusing on magic will some day bring out his inner dragon. For story purposes I should probably take the Dragon Disciple class, but I really don't want to harm my spell casting capabilities that mcuh. Rogue I can tolerate becuase I love the idea of using sneak attack with ray spells. So that's the idea. I will have to work in Dragonwrought to make him more a dragon than a humanoid.You have to look at the gain and see if it is worth the lose in spell levels. That said you do get bonus spells from the class. One more casting of the highest level you can cast. That helps some. Dragonfire adept look cool but I still say DD is the best choice. DFA give NA, ups breathweapon and gives more options with them, and if he gets to 19th level get the immunities. Plus I don't think dragon touch lets him gain those feats he wanted. DD Gives stat boost, 2 claws and bite, NA, wings with fly speed, and gives the same immunities as DFA along with the energy type one too. Plus up his already spellcasting abilities some.
GuyrtheadamantineOne 03-11-08, 10:29 AM	Lawl Abe's Odyssey. Favorite game ever.
Toombs79 03-11-08, 02:39 PM	I'm not familiar with Abe's Odyssey, what system is it for? After consulting ROD, for now I'm looking at Rog 1 (to represent his humble beginnings as a janitor), Kobold Paragon 3 (to represent his being hte pillar of Kobolddom) and then Soc. 6. Tho I havn't double checked, I don't think Paragon classes count against XP penalties, do they? I think they're consiodered favored classes for their race. Okay, so admittantly there is a ltitle bit of min/maxing going on there as well. Kobold Paragon gives a +2 cha, which with a cloak of Cha +6 and a base 18 (after droping wis by 2) and 2 adjustments at 4th and 8th, it gives a Cha of 28 with a +9 Cha bonus. Good luck saving from my spells. Plus the bonus spells are through the roof! 11 fully loaded magic missiles! not bad! how about that DC 22 Fireball? But the idea is that of a Janitor who wants to unite a race, so I am focusing more on Enchangment/Illusion I think. I'm considering lesser Gaes for my 4th lvl spell. That or, with the high save DC, shadow conjuration. It'll open a world of spell options.
Ace_of_time 03-11-08, 02:56 PM	Are you making the PC now or Have you been playing him? If you are making him now at a higher level you could go ahead a get the DW feat and be done with it. Imp speed would give him a 40' base if you can get 13str and if you do get the wings and a fly speed through other feats that would add +20' to that to.
Centor 03-11-08, 03:14 PM	Dragonfire adept look cool but I still say DD is the best choice. DFA give NA, ups breathweapon and gives more options with them, and if he gets to 19th level get the immunities. Plus I don't think dragon touch lets him gain those feats he wanted.. No dragon touched doesn’t give him that ability but be a dragonwrought Kobold does, (dragon subtype) and does give him access to all those nifty feats. Its really the only way to get them with out a really generous DM. DD is a fine choice if you want a melee heavy caster, but DFA never has to even roll the attack dice to hit. Breath weapons JUST HIT!! plus you get, some, cool magic thru invocations. Plus take a look at the humanoid shape invocation. There is so much you can do with that, its a instant disguise, you can become something that already has wings and fly or you can get the draconic flight invocation and have a fly speed with out needing to always have wings to get in the way. Walk Unseen is also very fun. Check out the DFA guide. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=780301&highlight=dragonfire%20adept)
Ace_of_time 03-11-08, 03:28 PM	Yeah just roll for half damage!:rolleyes: His build would work for ether choice anyway.
Centor 03-11-08, 03:59 PM	True, but if you take entangled exhultation, your going to not do much damage on the first round but they are stuck and take 1d6 each round after. Great battle field control and only rouges are going to get around it.
Toombs79 03-11-08, 05:03 PM	I am making the character at level 10. I'm joining an existing game which started at a higher level to begin with, and kind of like the ability to craft the char as I see fit. For feats currently I have dragonwrought and Dragonwings. I ahvn't decided the dragon subtype yet, but I'm considering Shadow. I'm not sure what would work best in his storyline yet. I've also taken Improved familiar to gain a pseudodragon. That's more for story than anything, leaving one extra feat. I was considering imrpoved dragon wings. Looking at 4th level spells and beyond they really sort of fall off for me, that is, pound for pound don't seem to have the same kick as low levels. Sure there are some real killers, but still.. Evocation is limited and there's too much if's with the cool illusions like phantasmal killer. Then again, I havn't checked out dragon magic or TOM. As such, I am considering some of the aformentioned prestiege and char classes. I like the idea of having a breath weapon. Anyone have a better suggestion than improved dragon wings I am all ears. Nothing right now is jumping out of the page to me. I don't think I can get a 13 str, his Str right now is an 8. In fact, stat lines are: Str 8, Dex 18 (after adjustment), Con 7, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 28 (after adjustments and magic items.)
Ace_of_time 03-11-08, 05:04 PM	Even a true dragon knows not every thing can be solve with breath weapon. DD gives him more options to chose from without limiting him self to one move. Dragons only use their breath if the are more enemies then he/she can take out with his natural weapon attacks. I was just saying it seemed to specialize in just one part where DD gives alot more options to choose from. DD has more balance. If someone/thing finds a way around your breath what then?
Ace_of_time 03-11-08, 05:20 PM	I am making the character at level 10. I'm joining an existing game which started at a higher level to begin with, and kind of like the ability to craft the char as I see fit. For feats currently I have dragonwrought and Dragonwings. I ahvn't decided the dragon subtype yet, but I'm considering Shadow. I'm not sure what would work best in his storyline yet. I've also taken Improved familiar to gain a pseudodragon. That's more for story than anything, leaving one extra feat. I was considering imrpoved dragon wings. Looking at 4th level spells and beyond they really sort of fall off for me, that is, pound for pound don't seem to have the same kick as low levels. Sure there are some real killers, but still.. Evocation is limited and there's too much if's with the cool illusions like phantasmal killer. Then again, I havn't checked out dragon magic or TOM. As such, I am considering some of the aformentioned prestiege and char classes. I like the idea of having a breath weapon. Anyone have a better suggestion than improved dragon wings I am all ears. Nothing right now is jumping out of the page to me. I don't think I can get a 13 str, his Str right now is an 8. In fact, stat lines are: Str 8, Dex 18 (after adjustment), Con 7, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 28 (after adjustments and magic items.)Then I say take Impr dragon wing. Those stats I think take away most of the feats for dragons. You could take a few levels for the breath but that would put you at a XP penalty if you don't keep the rogue and the DFA at about the same level. Most of the spell you will get will be better then the breath and their are spells that give your a breath weapon. Keep in mind what level of spell is your max level. You need 18th sorc for 9th, 16th for 8th, and 14th for 7th.
Isendir 03-11-08, 08:00 PM	For feats currently I have dragonwrought and Dragonwings. I ahvn't decided the dragon subtype yet, but I'm considering Shadow. I'm not sure what would work best in his storyline yet. Yay Shadow!! Draconomicon is mostly around Abjuration, Conjuration, and Transmutation for spells, and if he was an ab sorc and had an elemental subtype, and your playing epic you could go elemental master :P
Radiun 03-11-08, 08:01 PM	If someone/thing finds a way around your breath what then? Min level Name&Effect 2nd Frost Breath Cone-shaped breath weapon deals cold damage 2nd Lightning Breath Line-shaped breath weapon deals electricity damage 2nd Sickening Breath Cone-shaped breath weapon sickens creatures 5th Acid Breath Breath weapon deals acid damage 5th Shaped Breath Create safe zones in your breath weapon's area 5th Slow Breath Cone-shaped breath weapon slows creatures 5th Weakening Breath Cone-shaped breath weapon imposes -6 penalty to Strength 10th Cloud Breath Breath weapon can take form of 20-foot radius cloud 10th Enduring Breath Breath weapon deals damage over 2 rounds 10th Sleep Breath Cone-shaped breath weapon puts weak creatures to sleep 10th Thunder Breath Cone-shaped breath weapon deals sonic damage 15th Discorporating Breath of Bahamut Line-shaped breath weapon deals double damage, disintegrates creatures 15th Force Breath Line-shaped breath weapon deals force damage 15th Paralyzing Breath Cone-shaped breath weapon paralyzes creatures for 1 round 15th Fivefold Breath of Tiamat Breathe five different breath weapons simultaneously You can have 3 of those at level 10. If they find a way to cancel ALL your breath weapons, well then tough tomatoes.
Isendir 03-11-08, 08:09 PM	And what heck is that from?
luedre 03-11-08, 08:57 PM	That list is from the Dragon Magic for DFA. Honestly though, I wouldn't bother with wings, you burn up a feat for what you can do with magic. Look into taking kobold subtitution levels for your rogue levels if you are thinking of taking rogue, very helpful. Also, you'll need to take a level of Sorc before you take kobold Paragon, otherwise it's pointless for the sorc levels if you arn't a sorc to begin with. Well, you could always just start out as 1 level of kobold paragon and it doesn't hurt. I would personally go kobold paragon 1st level, then a level of sorc, finish of kobold paragon and what not the rest of the way. There is no reason for rogue and if it's just for rp, a kobold paragon can be a janitor, heck anyone can.
Ace_of_time 03-11-08, 09:28 PM	Min level Name&Effect 2nd Frost Breath Cone-shaped breath weapon deals cold damage 2nd Lightning Breath Line-shaped breath weapon deals electricity damage 2nd Sickening Breath Cone-shaped breath weapon sickens creatures 5th Acid Breath Breath weapon deals acid damage 5th Shaped Breath Create safe zones in your breath weapon's area 5th Slow Breath Cone-shaped breath weapon slows creatures 5th Weakening Breath Cone-shaped breath weapon imposes -6 penalty to Strength 10th Cloud Breath Breath weapon can take form of 20-foot radius cloud 10th Enduring Breath Breath weapon deals damage over 2 rounds 10th Sleep Breath Cone-shaped breath weapon puts weak creatures to sleep 10th Thunder Breath Cone-shaped breath weapon deals sonic damage 15th Discorporating Breath of Bahamut Line-shaped breath weapon deals double damage, disintegrates creatures 15th Force Breath Line-shaped breath weapon deals force damage 15th Paralyzing Breath Cone-shaped breath weapon paralyzes creatures for 1 round 15th Fivefold Breath of Tiamat Breathe five different breath weapons simultaneously You can have 3 of those at level 10. If they find a way to cancel ALL your breath weapons, well then tough tomatoes. Antimagic Field Abjuration Level: Clr 8, Magic 6, Protection 6, Sor/Wiz 6 Components: V, S, M/DF Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: 10 ft. Area: 10-ft.-radius emanation, centered on you Duration: 10 min./level (D) Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: See text An invisible barrier surrounds you and moves with you. The space within this barrier is impervious to most magical effects, including spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. Likewise, it prevents the functioning of any magic items or spells within its confines. An antimagic field suppresses any spell or magical effect used within, brought into, or cast into the area, but does not dispel it. Time spent within an antimagic field counts against the suppressed spell’s duration. Summoned creatures of any type and incorporeal undead wink out if they enter an antimagic field. They reappear in the same spot once the field goes away. Time spent winked out counts normally against the duration of the conjuration that is maintaining the creature. If you cast antimagic field in an area occupied by a summoned creature that has spell resistance, you must make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) against the creature’s spell resistance to make it wink out. (The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result.) A normal creature can enter the area, as can normal missiles. Furthermore, while a magic sword does not function magically within the area, it is still a sword (and a masterwork sword at that). The spell has no effect on golems and other constructs that are imbued with magic during their creation process and are thereafter self-supporting (unless they have been summoned, in which case they are treated like any other summoned creatures). Elementals, corporeal undead, and outsiders are likewise unaffected unless summoned. These creatures’ spell-like or supernatural abilities, however, may be temporarily nullified by the field. Dispel magic does not remove the field. Two or more antimagic fields sharing any of the same space have no effect on each other. Certain spells, such as wall of force, prismatic sphere, and prismatic wall, remain unaffected by antimagic field (see the individual spell descriptions). Artifacts and deities are unaffected by mortal magic such as this. Should a creature be larger than the area enclosed by the barrier, any part of it that lies outside the barrier is unaffected by the field. Arcane Material Component: A pinch of powdered iron or iron filings. 20th level does 9d6(average=31.5) i beleive not including any feats or meta feats if you can get them. Of course he is a sorc and can get. Dragon breath: 3rd level spell that give them just that. Last 10 min per level. Type is chosen when cast. Lines are 5'*5'*60'. ( acid, elec, or fire) or cones 30'*30'*30'. (acid, cold, or fire) max damage being 10d6 Reflex for half too but rolled of the caster spell DC. Can use it a max time of 10 times while the spell last and still has to follow the 1d4+1 rounds rules. Of course 10 levels in DD would net them Str 16, Dex 18 (after adjustment), Con 9, Int 16, Wis 12, Cha 30 (after adjustments and magic items.) Breath weapon of 6d8 ( 27), NA +4, Bonus casting, and ETC. That's not including DD has a HD of d12; DFA d8. DD use a higher BAB and both have the same saves. Not including if his DM allows it he can chose from the half dragon entry from The dragon book. Shadow would make them immune to enery drain and giving them the ability to drain levels with his breath and gain temp HP. Which would help with that minus they have on it.
Radiun 03-12-08, 12:33 AM	20th level does 9d6(average=31.5) i beleive not including any feats or meta feats if you can get them. Of course he is a sorc and can get. Dragon breath: 3rd level spell that give them just that. Last 10 min per level. Type is chosen when cast. Lines are 5'*5'*60'. ( acid, elec, or fire) or cones 30'*30'*30'. (acid, cold, or fire) max damage being 10d6 Reflex for half too but rolled of the caster spell DC. Can use it a max time of 10 times while the spell last and still has to follow the 1d4+1 rounds rules. Of course 10 levels in DD would net them Str 16, Dex 18 (after adjustment), Con 9, Int 16, Wis 12, Cha 30 (after adjustments and magic items.) Breath weapon of 6d8 ( 27), NA +4, Bonus casting, and ETC. That's not including DD has a HD of d12; DFA d8. DD use a higher BAB and both have the same saves. Not including if his DM allows it he can chose from the half dragon entry from The dragon book. Shadow would make them immune to enery drain and giving them the ability to drain levels with his breath and gain temp HP. Which would help with that minus they have on it. You seem to be under the impression that am suggesting he play a DFA inistead of DD. I honestly don't give a flying rat booty (though come to think of it, that WOULD probably fetch a nice sum of money from researchers and curiosity collectors). I was just pointing out that the breath weapon is not AS limited as one might thing, though it does certainly pale in comparisons to the arcane spell list. But let's be honest, few things don't pale in comparison to that list's potential.
Ace_of_time 03-12-08, 07:20 AM	I have already said that both do not fit their idea for the character. I wasn't trying to make you or anyone mad,but some classes are just like a fighter specializing in one weapon. There is nothing really wrong with it but you want to have some other options just in case someone comes along and sunders that weapon and your not near to a town. PC should have atleast 3 options or more to be balanced. How about both of us call trace on this one and try and help the OP?:pint: (that come off mean too And not what I was meaning so I added a smile to make up for it sorry.) I thought there was a rogue/caster Pro class some where. But can't remember where I saw it at. To the OP: I find one but don't know if it is what you would like. Unseen Seer. It ups your spellcasting and SA. It is in CM page 82. If it helps you only need 4 levels in rogue and 1 level in sorc to enter but need to know atleast two divin spells. If your going for 10th then you could take 5 level in the Pro class. Check it out if you like.
Toombs79 03-12-08, 04:40 PM	Okay - Great points made. I think I'm going to get rid of wings and I think awaken freightful presence. With the +9 modifier to Char that would make the DC 24. The question still remains what to dow ith the final feat. I'm also going to get rid of Rogue. I had rogue levels for the sneak attack (which is nice in combination with ray magic,) but reducng from 3 to 1 levels also makes the extra 1d6 sometimes a bit... well... lacking. So the new build (and when levels are taken) are Kob Paragon 1, Soc 1, Kob Para 2, Soc 6. Unless.. So looking at prestiege classes my biggest gripe has been the lack of spell progression. I've really wanted to pursue soc. levels if anything just so I can eventually access the beauties in lvl 7, 8 and 9. Although a Soc. slinging 4th lvl Phantasmal Killers with a DC 23 save (25 when I juice myself up with eagle's splendor) is sick. I have been considering the DFA but I can do as much as breath weapons with spells and more frequently. Plus the spell save DC's are based of Cha.
Centor 03-13-08, 10:03 AM	OK I think the breath weapon of a DFA needs to be clarified. Its every round. There is no recharge on it like an actual dragon. So I dont see how you can do it more often with magic. The only thin that has recharge is thier breath effects. Anyway, sounds like a good build with the Soc still has good flavor.
Toombs79 03-13-08, 10:05 AM	Does Dragonwrought open up those feats available through Draconic Heritage? It seems almost superfluous to have to get both feats, that is wrought and heritage, and in the Dragonwrought description it uses the term "draconic heritage" quite a bit.
Ace_of_time 03-13-08, 10:18 AM	The feats just require DH it doesn't say the feat just that you have to have one so I don't see why not.
Ratpick 03-13-08, 07:41 PM	According to the rules, no. Unless you take a specific fea. ;)
Ace_of_time 03-14-08, 01:58 AM	yeah I missed that. Page 102 right under dragonic feats. But I would still say yes. Talk to your DM about it and point out that you still have a DH from the first feat and see if he can give you a break. Just one feat and your going to take it and get the feats anyway.
Maeglin_Dubh 03-14-08, 03:20 AM	What's the bare minimum to get a flying kobold? (i.e., dragon wings)