Argument: Best Base Race [Archive] - Wizards Community

Argument: Best Base Race [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Talon_
03-24-08, 09:25 PM When I really thought about it, crunched the numbers and everything, the best race [paired with it's preferred class, humans w/clerics and paladins, half-elves w/bards, rogues, rangers and druids] is halfings.

Let's list their racial traits

+2 Dex, -2 Str
+1 to AC, +1 to attack rolls, +4 to Hide checks [for being Small]
+1 on attack rolls with thrown or sling weapons
+2 on Climb, Jump, Listen and Move Silently checks
+1 on ALL saving throws
+2 on saving throws against fear [stacks; +3 fear Will save]

The only bad things are the penalty to Str and the 3/4 carrying capacity.

Prove me wrong.

Sincerely, Arthur Honeyhill, the Halfling Beguiler 7/Rogue 3
Shaggy_Shaggs
03-24-08, 09:38 PM Halflings have a move speed of 20' -- they can't get out of melee if something bigger shows up (at which point the lack of strength, and the size penalty on opposed checks like Grapple comes into play).

Furthermore they don't scout or do other time-critical stealth-based pursuits well, again because of their speed - keep in mind to move silently without penalty your speed is halved, so they're moving at a rate of all of ten feet.

The speed hits them again when it comes to getting airborne - you take a -6 penalty on Jump checks for each 10' by which your speed falls short of the normal 30', so their little racial +2 on Jump checks isn't a help.

Halflings can't see in the dark worth a damn, which renders them pretty much useless for any sort of character that would be using shadows to sneak around.

Goblins (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/goblin.htm) are much better rogues than halflings are, and even goblins aren't the absolute best at it.
Lappy9000
03-24-08, 10:32 PM Prove me wrong.

Now you're just asking for trouble :D

Halflings are super-dooper cool and stuff, but you have to admit that they're rather puny. In addition to the above reasons regarding size, halflings are quite susceptible to oh, say, being grappled (due largely to their penalty) by a hulking 6'9" fighter and used as an improvised bludgeoning weapon against her fellow half-orc guard for the next two rounds while the fighter maintained his grapple.

Best dungeon EVER.
Lotus Crane
03-24-08, 10:56 PM Aside from highly circumstantial race-class specific combinations that typically involve commonly banned races (grey elf arcanists, lesser planetouched with their favored classes), humans are all-around the best. Their any favored class and bonus feat make them away and far the easiest race to enter non-race-specific PrC's with, and they have the best scaling ability in core; the extra skill point per level (4 at 1st) that isn't dependent on Intelligence. At 1st level this may only translate to +4 relative skills, whereas other races may have up to +6 in their specialties, but by 20th level, humans effectively have +23 to skills, roughly quadruple the bonus of other races.
AZNsupermarket
03-24-08, 11:22 PM Assuming that you are referring to the core races, I have to say that overall humans are the most powerful. A bonus feat and bonus skill point is useful to every character in the game regardless of class. Favored Class: any is pretty sweet too.

Did you say that half elves make the best druids, rangers, and rogues? You said that you crunched the numbers, but I doubt that you could find any numbers to support that theory. I can kinda understand half-elves being considered the best bard because of the Races of Destiny substitution levels, but for the most part, half-elves are just humans without the extra skill point per level, no bonus feat, and low-light vision.
Shaggy_Shaggs
03-24-08, 11:43 PM Maybe he's got "best" mixed up with "most obvious at a glance with only the PHB available".
Lappy9000
03-24-08, 11:47 PM half-elves are just humans without the extra skill point per level, no bonus feat, and low-light vision

They can't be put to sleep either which is kinda an advantage, I suppose.

Since we're probably talking about core races, I'd third the argument for humans. Though while looking at the number of racial traits, halflings and dwarves look superior, halflings have penalties to balance out their advantages, and the dwarven abilities are kinda restricted to certain situations.

However, in a underground dungeon-crawler campaign riddled with dark catacombs, goblins, and poisnous traps, I'd place my silvers on dwarves.

Maybe he's got "best" mixed up with "most obvious at a glance with only the PHB available".

Give the guy some slack, that +1 on all saving throws looks pretty tempting for anyone.
Shaggy_Shaggs
03-24-08, 11:56 PM Oh yeah, certainly, +1 on all saving throws is tempting. Hell one of the reasons I like the Shadow creature template is a possible +2 luck bonus on all saving throws (albeit the template comes with LA). I just mean to say that while the OP has not identified a "best" race for its favoured class, it'd be fairly easy to arrive at the conclusion that it's the most fitting match in the PHB.
Rebel7284
03-24-08, 11:56 PM I thought it was agreed by most that core-only dwarfs and humans are about tied for best?
Lappy9000
03-25-08, 12:03 AM Hell one of the reasons I like the Shadow creature template is a possible +2 luck bonus on all saving throws (albeit the template comes with LA).

Dog, yo. I need to keep that away from my players O__O

I thought it was agreed by most that core-only dwarfs and humans are about tied for best?

Definitely. I've seen tons of arguments fighting to give dwarves a +1 LA.
Krusk
03-25-08, 12:19 AM When I really thought about it, crunched the numbers and everything, the best race [paired with it's preferred class, humans w/clerics and paladins, half-elves w/bards, rogues, rangers and druids] is halfings.
Prove me wrong.

Well lets look at the half-orc. Which is clearly better by a longshot.

Half-orc "The half-orc stands between 6 and 7 feet tall".

Now compare that to the puny halflings, "usually stand about 3 feet tall".

Really the choice is obvious, the half-orc can reach like 3 times as many shelves in the kitchen. It is hard as anything to hide the cookies from him, because he can reach all of them. The halfling, well you can put them right on the table, and he is going to have a problem getting to them without a decent climb check.

half-orc's are clearly the best PHB race. Now don't even get me started on the Monster Manual. That opens the door to all sorts of cheese, like frost giants, or even dragons. Dragons are waaaaay broken, they have wings!!! How can you put something out of their reach if they can fly? They totally need a nerf.

diffrent races best for diffrent things
key
03-25-08, 09:13 AM They have short lifespans.
drakir_nosslin
03-25-08, 10:43 AM They have short lifespans.

So do most D&D adventurers, or is it just my characters that tend to die early? :D
Shaggy_Shaggs
03-25-08, 10:56 AM So do most D&D adventurers, or is it just my characters that tend to die early? :D

I had the same character die three times in one session, ages ago. Moral of the story: Just because you're a werebear barbarian doesn't mean you're the biggest badass in the universe, and also, don't fall into lava right after your immunity to fire is stripped away.
Adonis1x23
03-27-08, 03:05 PM I would say humans are the best race in most general circumstance. If they had dark vision, they would most likely become a +1 LA.

But then again I do have bias considering I am human :P .

What book is the Shadow template in?
betrayor
03-27-08, 04:06 PM I think that amongst the la 0 races the most powerful ones are:
Lesser Aasimar,strongheart halfling,silvelbrow human,silver elf or silvanesti.
Maybe even dragonborn but it is more of a template than a race.
ArkhamInmate
03-27-08, 05:07 PM I'd say Human or Dwarf hands down
Maeglin_Dubh
03-27-08, 07:31 PM I usually default to human when I have a good class concept I want to go with, and in the absence of a good class concept, I try to go for a fun race and build the class around them, flavorwise. I like playing different things, which is why I'm always bringing something new into the World's Largest Dungeon.
Shaggy_Shaggs
03-27-08, 08:14 PM Shadow creature is in Lords of Madness (as is a ton of other cool stuff, that book is sweet).
Nathreet
03-27-08, 08:20 PM Dwarves, because everyone needs a con bonus. Otherwise gnomes if you need your cha. Plus both these races get 50 minor bonuses. Dwarves get a +2 to all the saves that matter and darkvision, for example. Only downside is the movement speed. For speed you're left with human by default, because elf/half-elf/half-orc suck.

But that assumes you're in combat, which is 95% of players. If you want a skillmonkey that hides during combat, a good out of combat negotiator, etc., then you might pick something else. Even then, we're looking at a +1 bonus to certain skill checks. Whoopee. You might as well focus on combat and be good at both.
ArkhamInmate
03-27-08, 08:26 PM Only downside is the movement speed.

Yeah but even then it's not that bad cause you never get slowed by what you carry
StruckingFuggle
03-27-08, 08:48 PM I'm shocked that we've been outside of Core for so long in this discussion, and the Whisper Gnome hasn't been mentioned.

Also, best race? LA+0? ... Kobolds. Obviously. :)
superlad
03-27-08, 10:08 PM I wold have to say dwarves and humans(like everyone else).Dwarves are fat drunks like my ancestors so there awesome.I had a friend who played as a dwarf just so he could use a dwarven waraxe:fight!: :duel: ,without penalties,he was playing as a wizard,unfortunately my friend is DMing my group right now and he is holding a knife at me right now for being on the internet telling you about how he is an idiot.OH NO!!HECK NO HE HAS A KNIFE!!!CALM DOWN NO NO NO NO NNNNOOOO AAAAHHHHH!!!! :duel: Ill fight back!
BugBytes
03-27-08, 10:56 PM When you say 'best' do you mean for starting players? Because our group has a dwarf cleric who got killed three times by a ferret in a magical fight simulator; wheras I, (a gnomish druid) used a simple spell to cause over 200 damage to an enemy.

I guess it's all relative.:D
superlad
03-27-08, 11:43 PM When you say 'best' do you mean for starting players? Because our group has a dwarf cleric who got killed three times by a ferret in a magical fight simulator; wheras I, (a gnomish druid) used a simple spell to cause over 200 damage to an enemy.

I guess it's all relative.:D

Glad gnomes arent gonna be in 4e phb.
superlad
03-27-08, 11:43 PM When you say 'best' do you mean for starting players? Because our group has a dwarf cleric who got killed three times by a ferret in a magical fight simulator; wheras I, (a gnomish druid) used a simple spell to cause over 200 damage to an enemy.

I guess it's all relative.:D

Glad gnomes arent gonna be in 4e phb:dancin:
StruckingFuggle
03-28-08, 04:08 AM Glad gnomes arent gonna be in 4e phb:dancin:

Y'know it probably had far, far more to do with him being a druid than him being a gnome, right?
narack
03-28-08, 08:06 AM I find human being the best, Extra feat + all the skills, everyone could use an extra feat.
Shadowhowler
03-29-08, 12:29 AM I'm shocked that we've been outside of Core for so long in this discussion, and the Whisper Gnome hasn't been mentioned.

Indeed. I was just about to mention both them and Warforged. Both of which are awesome races, (power wise anyway) if purpass built for their respective best builds.
teshen
03-29-08, 01:24 AM Shadow creature is in Lords of Madness (as is a ton of other cool stuff, that book is sweet).Dark creature is in Tome of Magic... and I find that with level buy off, you get rolling faster with a +0 at level 3 than a +1 at level six and a +0 at level 9

And slapping dark on a human is pretty cool... even cooler if you're make a dark whisper gnome rogue or illusionist or beguiler... or possibly scout.

I keep wanting to make a dark changeling and do a mystique like charachter...
Adonis1x23
03-29-08, 04:16 PM I just used a dark whisper gnome (dark or shadow--I cant remember--it had a +1 la that I bought off).

It is the best race and template for rogue hands down. I wanted to make a beguiler dark whisper gnome, but my dm said it would be powergaming(which is weird because it was a beguiler)
Drakegio
03-29-08, 08:36 PM Also, best race? LA+0? ... Kobolds. Obviously. :)

I have to agree with Fuggle on this one. Anyone who has read the Slayer's Guide to these little guys wants to play one nearly every time.
I have a wizard who found two as babies and took them to raise. Greatest two companions that anyone could ask for.
Talon_
04-03-08, 11:41 PM This has changed to a discussion to best LA +0 race, which I will gladly join, and retaliate with SEA DWARVES!!! Dunno where I saw this, but It might have been stormwrack. All I remember is, is that they were exactly the same as dwarves, except a +4 on Swim and Survival checks [underwater] and their ability adjustments changed to +2 Con, +2 Str, -4 Cha -2 Wis. BEST. RACE. EVER.

Or, I could be remembering them wrong, and I may have just made them up. If I did, they really sound like a LA +1 to me.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Talon_ 03-24-08, 09:25 PM	When I really thought about it, crunched the numbers and everything, the best race [paired with it's preferred class, humans w/clerics and paladins, half-elves w/bards, rogues, rangers and druids] is halfings. Let's list their racial traits +2 Dex, -2 Str +1 to AC, +1 to attack rolls, +4 to Hide checks [for being Small] +1 on attack rolls with thrown or sling weapons +2 on Climb, Jump, Listen and Move Silently checks +1 on ALL saving throws +2 on saving throws against fear [stacks; +3 fear Will save] The only bad things are the penalty to Str and the 3/4 carrying capacity. Prove me wrong. Sincerely, Arthur Honeyhill, the Halfling Beguiler 7/Rogue 3
Shaggy_Shaggs 03-24-08, 09:38 PM	Halflings have a move speed of 20' -- they can't get out of melee if something bigger shows up (at which point the lack of strength, and the size penalty on opposed checks like Grapple comes into play). Furthermore they don't scout or do other time-critical stealth-based pursuits well, again because of their speed - keep in mind to move silently without penalty your speed is halved, so they're moving at a rate of all of ten feet. The speed hits them again when it comes to getting airborne - you take a -6 penalty on Jump checks for each 10' by which your speed falls short of the normal 30', so their little racial +2 on Jump checks isn't a help. Halflings can't see in the dark worth a damn, which renders them pretty much useless for any sort of character that would be using shadows to sneak around. Goblins (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/goblin.htm) are much better rogues than halflings are, and even goblins aren't the absolute best at it.
Lappy9000 03-24-08, 10:32 PM	Prove me wrong. Now you're just asking for trouble :D Halflings are super-dooper cool and stuff, but you have to admit that they're rather puny. In addition to the above reasons regarding size, halflings are quite susceptible to oh, say, being grappled (due largely to their penalty) by a hulking 6'9" fighter and used as an improvised bludgeoning weapon against her fellow half-orc guard for the next two rounds while the fighter maintained his grapple. Best dungeon EVER.
Lotus Crane 03-24-08, 10:56 PM	Aside from highly circumstantial race-class specific combinations that typically involve commonly banned races (grey elf arcanists, lesser planetouched with their favored classes), humans are all-around the best. Their any favored class and bonus feat make them away and far the easiest race to enter non-race-specific PrC's with, and they have the best scaling ability in core; the extra skill point per level (4 at 1st) that isn't dependent on Intelligence. At 1st level this may only translate to +4 relative skills, whereas other races may have up to +6 in their specialties, but by 20th level, humans effectively have +23 to skills, roughly quadruple the bonus of other races.
AZNsupermarket 03-24-08, 11:22 PM	Assuming that you are referring to the core races, I have to say that overall humans are the most powerful. A bonus feat and bonus skill point is useful to every character in the game regardless of class. Favored Class: any is pretty sweet too. Did you say that half elves make the best druids, rangers, and rogues? You said that you crunched the numbers, but I doubt that you could find any numbers to support that theory. I can kinda understand half-elves being considered the best bard because of the Races of Destiny substitution levels, but for the most part, half-elves are just humans without the extra skill point per level, no bonus feat, and low-light vision.
Shaggy_Shaggs 03-24-08, 11:43 PM	Maybe he's got "best" mixed up with "most obvious at a glance with only the PHB available".
Lappy9000 03-24-08, 11:47 PM	half-elves are just humans without the extra skill point per level, no bonus feat, and low-light vision They can't be put to sleep either which is kinda an advantage, I suppose. Since we're probably talking about core races, I'd third the argument for humans. Though while looking at the number of racial traits, halflings and dwarves look superior, halflings have penalties to balance out their advantages, and the dwarven abilities are kinda restricted to certain situations. However, in a underground dungeon-crawler campaign riddled with dark catacombs, goblins, and poisnous traps, I'd place my silvers on dwarves. Maybe he's got "best" mixed up with "most obvious at a glance with only the PHB available". Give the guy some slack, that +1 on all saving throws looks pretty tempting for anyone.
Shaggy_Shaggs 03-24-08, 11:56 PM	Oh yeah, certainly, +1 on all saving throws is tempting. Hell one of the reasons I like the Shadow creature template is a possible +2 luck bonus on all saving throws (albeit the template comes with LA). I just mean to say that while the OP has not identified a "best" race for its favoured class, it'd be fairly easy to arrive at the conclusion that it's the most fitting match in the PHB.
Rebel7284 03-24-08, 11:56 PM	I thought it was agreed by most that core-only dwarfs and humans are about tied for best?
Lappy9000 03-25-08, 12:03 AM	Hell one of the reasons I like the Shadow creature template is a possible +2 luck bonus on all saving throws (albeit the template comes with LA). Dog, yo. I need to keep that away from my players O__O I thought it was agreed by most that core-only dwarfs and humans are about tied for best? Definitely. I've seen tons of arguments fighting to give dwarves a +1 LA.
Krusk 03-25-08, 12:19 AM	When I really thought about it, crunched the numbers and everything, the best race [paired with it's preferred class, humans w/clerics and paladins, half-elves w/bards, rogues, rangers and druids] is halfings. Prove me wrong. Well lets look at the half-orc. Which is clearly better by a longshot. Half-orc "The half-orc stands between 6 and 7 feet tall". Now compare that to the puny halflings, "usually stand about 3 feet tall". Really the choice is obvious, the half-orc can reach like 3 times as many shelves in the kitchen. It is hard as anything to hide the cookies from him, because he can reach all of them. The halfling, well you can put them right on the table, and he is going to have a problem getting to them without a decent climb check. half-orc's are clearly the best PHB race. Now don't even get me started on the Monster Manual. That opens the door to all sorts of cheese, like frost giants, or even dragons. Dragons are waaaaay broken, they have wings!!! How can you put something out of their reach if they can fly? They totally need a nerf. diffrent races best for diffrent things
key 03-25-08, 09:13 AM	They have short lifespans.
drakir_nosslin 03-25-08, 10:43 AM	They have short lifespans. So do most D&D adventurers, or is it just my characters that tend to die early? :D
Shaggy_Shaggs 03-25-08, 10:56 AM	So do most D&D adventurers, or is it just my characters that tend to die early? :D I had the same character die three times in one session, ages ago. Moral of the story: Just because you're a werebear barbarian doesn't mean you're the biggest badass in the universe, and also, don't fall into lava right after your immunity to fire is stripped away.
Adonis1x23 03-27-08, 03:05 PM	I would say humans are the best race in most general circumstance. If they had dark vision, they would most likely become a +1 LA. But then again I do have bias considering I am human :P . What book is the Shadow template in?
betrayor 03-27-08, 04:06 PM	I think that amongst the la 0 races the most powerful ones are: Lesser Aasimar,strongheart halfling,silvelbrow human,silver elf or silvanesti. Maybe even dragonborn but it is more of a template than a race.
ArkhamInmate 03-27-08, 05:07 PM	I'd say Human or Dwarf hands down
Maeglin_Dubh 03-27-08, 07:31 PM	I usually default to human when I have a good class concept I want to go with, and in the absence of a good class concept, I try to go for a fun race and build the class around them, flavorwise. I like playing different things, which is why I'm always bringing something new into the World's Largest Dungeon.
Shaggy_Shaggs 03-27-08, 08:14 PM	Shadow creature is in Lords of Madness (as is a ton of other cool stuff, that book is sweet).
Nathreet 03-27-08, 08:20 PM	Dwarves, because everyone needs a con bonus. Otherwise gnomes if you need your cha. Plus both these races get 50 minor bonuses. Dwarves get a +2 to all the saves that matter and darkvision, for example. Only downside is the movement speed. For speed you're left with human by default, because elf/half-elf/half-orc suck. But that assumes you're in combat, which is 95% of players. If you want a skillmonkey that hides during combat, a good out of combat negotiator, etc., then you might pick something else. Even then, we're looking at a +1 bonus to certain skill checks. Whoopee. You might as well focus on combat and be good at both.
ArkhamInmate 03-27-08, 08:26 PM	Only downside is the movement speed. Yeah but even then it's not that bad cause you never get slowed by what you carry
StruckingFuggle 03-27-08, 08:48 PM	I'm shocked that we've been outside of Core for so long in this discussion, and the Whisper Gnome hasn't been mentioned. Also, best race? LA+0? ... Kobolds. Obviously. :)
superlad 03-27-08, 10:08 PM	I wold have to say dwarves and humans(like everyone else).Dwarves are fat drunks like my ancestors so there awesome.I had a friend who played as a dwarf just so he could use a dwarven waraxe:fight!: :duel: ,without penalties,he was playing as a wizard,unfortunately my friend is DMing my group right now and he is holding a knife at me right now for being on the internet telling you about how he is an idiot.OH NO!!HECK NO HE HAS A KNIFE!!!CALM DOWN NO NO NO NO NNNNOOOO AAAAHHHHH!!!! :duel: Ill fight back!
BugBytes 03-27-08, 10:56 PM	When you say 'best' do you mean for starting players? Because our group has a dwarf cleric who got killed three times by a ferret in a magical fight simulator; wheras I, (a gnomish druid) used a simple spell to cause over 200 damage to an enemy. I guess it's all relative.:D
superlad 03-27-08, 11:43 PM	When you say 'best' do you mean for starting players? Because our group has a dwarf cleric who got killed three times by a ferret in a magical fight simulator; wheras I, (a gnomish druid) used a simple spell to cause over 200 damage to an enemy. I guess it's all relative.:D Glad gnomes arent gonna be in 4e phb.
superlad 03-27-08, 11:43 PM	When you say 'best' do you mean for starting players? Because our group has a dwarf cleric who got killed three times by a ferret in a magical fight simulator; wheras I, (a gnomish druid) used a simple spell to cause over 200 damage to an enemy. I guess it's all relative.:D Glad gnomes arent gonna be in 4e phb:dancin:
StruckingFuggle 03-28-08, 04:08 AM	Glad gnomes arent gonna be in 4e phb:dancin: Y'know it probably had far, far more to do with him being a druid than him being a gnome, right?
narack 03-28-08, 08:06 AM	I find human being the best, Extra feat + all the skills, everyone could use an extra feat.
Shadowhowler 03-29-08, 12:29 AM	I'm shocked that we've been outside of Core for so long in this discussion, and the Whisper Gnome hasn't been mentioned. Indeed. I was just about to mention both them and Warforged. Both of which are awesome races, (power wise anyway) if purpass built for their respective best builds.
teshen 03-29-08, 01:24 AM	Shadow creature is in Lords of Madness (as is a ton of other cool stuff, that book is sweet).Dark creature is in Tome of Magic... and I find that with level buy off, you get rolling faster with a +0 at level 3 than a +1 at level six and a +0 at level 9 And slapping dark on a human is pretty cool... even cooler if you're make a dark whisper gnome rogue or illusionist or beguiler... or possibly scout. I keep wanting to make a dark changeling and do a mystique like charachter...
Adonis1x23 03-29-08, 04:16 PM	I just used a dark whisper gnome (dark or shadow--I cant remember--it had a +1 la that I bought off). It is the best race and template for rogue hands down. I wanted to make a beguiler dark whisper gnome, but my dm said it would be powergaming(which is weird because it was a beguiler)
Drakegio 03-29-08, 08:36 PM	Also, best race? LA+0? ... Kobolds. Obviously. :) I have to agree with Fuggle on this one. Anyone who has read the Slayer's Guide to these little guys wants to play one nearly every time. I have a wizard who found two as babies and took them to raise. Greatest two companions that anyone could ask for.
Talon_ 04-03-08, 11:41 PM	This has changed to a discussion to best LA +0 race, which I will gladly join, and retaliate with SEA DWARVES!!! Dunno where I saw this, but It might have been stormwrack. All I remember is, is that they were exactly the same as dwarves, except a +4 on Swim and Survival checks [underwater] and their ability adjustments changed to +2 Con, +2 Str, -4 Cha -2 Wis. BEST. RACE. EVER. Or, I could be remembering them wrong, and I may have just made them up. If I did, they really sound like a LA +1 to me.