Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kemev 04-19-07, 07:27 PM	(This thread may be somewhat DM-centric. Players hang in there.) So I have this idea about the current LA style that it's a little bit like Newtonian physics: it works well on a small scale, but once things start getting really big and fast it starts to break down. At low LAs (no/few racial hit dice, only +1 or +2 adjustment), the system seems to work pretty well, at least in campaigns I've run or played in. Perennial favorites like thri'kreen, goliath, various lycanthropes, and plane-touched have all meshed pretty well and been pretty much on par power-wise with the rest of the party. Also, for low level adjustments the level buy-off system seems fairly effective. The problem with the system really starts with casters. I've yet to play/seen played a caster that ultimately worked out well with a significant level adjustment. Even with a level buyoff, the player still misses out on experience that could have been better spent on item creation. The system also starts to swing wildy out of control when trying creatures with high HD and level adjustments (see the debate raging on the erinyes thread). It seems like you end up with one or two abilities that are quite powerful (in the erinyes example, having greater teleport at will, or very high adjustments to every ability score), but then also having a lot of junk and not enough HD to be survivable. So here are the big questions: 1.) What are examples of monstrous abilities that remain significant throughout a campaign? (Ability scores are ok, SR that increases with character level is also ok, etc...) 2. Is it a problem for the current system that players who want optimized caster characters are limited to races with little or no LA? (Especially since at high levels, noone likes being the combat character whose purpose is to stand guard while the wizard studies his books.) 3. What systems have people used to provide fair level adjustments for monstrous characters? I personally haven't found a feature point system that I thought was fair, and trying to use CR or HD without some other sort of adjustment quickly becomes broken. 4. Is level adjustment really worth bothering to worry about? Should DMs encourage LA +0 (or very low) races to avoid potentially making a mess of his/her campaign? Any thoughts appreciated (as long as they're polite).
Balthanon 04-19-07, 07:58 PM	For #1, I would say: Spell Resistance Ability Score Bonuses Natural Armor Bonuses Immunities (possibly not into Epic) Reach Spellcasting (close to equivalent to ECL) Blindsight are definitely worthwhile throughout. Some others that might be depending upon exactly what they grant would be: Feats [This just depends on the feat, those useful as prerequisites or that are something you will always likely use in combat can be useful throughout a players career.] Skill Bonuses [So long as those skill bonuses place the final modifiers significantly higher than ECL might otherwise dictate.] Movement Bonuses [70 foot land speed is likely to stay significant, since it can be further enhanced. Average flight might become less so as other means of picking it up become available.] Damage Reduction [So long as it isn't passed by something easy like magic-- a special material damage reduction or alignment damage reduction is likely to stay significant. Energy Drain [this should probably be a given, but... eventually, getting protection from negative energy becomes easier. It is still likely to be of use against the majority of opponents though.]
Kemev 04-19-07, 08:12 PM	I wouldn't have listed natural armor; it's handy at low levels, but unless it's quite high it'll quickly become outmoded compared to the AC from wildshape or 'morphs. Spellcasting close to ECL would be very nice, but what are some races that get that? Same with 70 ft base land speed; very nice, but who gets it?
Squirrelloid 04-19-07, 08:22 PM	LA is a broken mechanic because a number of spells work off the target's HD. It also forces monstrous creatures into a no-man's zone where they can't adequately perform any role in the party, and that's bad. I elsewhere proposed the following alternate system (note that the only abilities that are really crazy are things like casting as a PC class, because thats sort of like having class HD with awesome stat modifiers): Replacement for LA: Step 0 - DM's permission. Let's face it, some monsters have crazy abilities that are *never* appropriate for PCs. (Chronotryn comes to mind). The DM is fully within his rights to ban outright any monster with over-the-top abilities. In general, the following is recommended as a guideline: (A) any monster capable of getting extra standard or full round actions is inappropriate as a PC race. (B) any monster with spellcasting as a PC class of level greater than its HD is inappropriate. (C) Monsters that receive spellcasting at all should be examined closely, generally receiving PC class spellcasting > 2/3 HD is overpowering with monster statistics, because the monster HD become better than PC class HD. A monster that has spellcasting ability as a PC class = its HD should otherwise have stats on par with an "LA+0" race - for each level of reduced spellcasting increase the relative awesomeness allowed for the monster. (The DM is perfectly in his right to deny monsters that have spellcasting as a PC class. If he does allow them, he counts as having as many levels of the appropriate spellcasting class (advanceable by class levels and PrC levels) as his spellcasting ability implies). (D) wish as an SLA is *very* inappropriate. Just about anything else is ok (including most SLAs and the like), with the caveat that if the DM absolutely needs to he can ban a race for a truly abusive ability. (Barring those listed above, a DM should rarely have to invoke his right to ban a monster as a PC race). Step 1 - take the monster's CR. Add 1 because players are generally better at exploiting monster abilities. This is a new statistic: minimum starting level. A monster of that race may not be created as a character unless the APL is at least equal to the minimum starting level. Call Min Start Level X. Step 2 - Check HD. If HD = X, it starts with X racial HD. Easy. If HD < X, it can take X-HD class levels at character creation. For example, a monster with 4 racial HD and Min Start Level 7 starts the game with 4 racial HD and 3 class levels as a 7th level character, and cannot be started as a player character before that. (This has the odd effect that you can never play such a creature at class level 1 or 2... oh well.) If HD > X. This generally means there is no good way of quickly converting the monster to a PC race. The key things to achieve are to reduce the HD to X while keeping BAB approximately constant - generally accomplished by altering the nature of the HD. DM's discretion and involvement advised. Step 3 - Determine stats. Pair elite array against the monster's stats by comparing high stat to high stat, etc... subtract elite array from the monster's stats, round the remainder down. These are the stat mods. Allow the player to make any decisions on elite-monster stat pairings when there are multiple permissible pairings. Any stat pumps based on level accrued due to racial HD are lost, or at the DM's option one or more stat mods are reduced by an amount = the level based stat pumps owed. (for odd pumps this should generally have no effect on the stat mods, since you've been rounding down to find all those - generally only even numbers of pumps should be awarded). Step 4 - Determine abilities. The player gets all of the monsters abilities, but receives no gear typically carried by the monster unless he expends wealth to have that gear. Notes on Balthanon's worry areas (renumbered, sorry): (1) NA is really easy to acquire with polymorph and similar magic. This is a staple of high-level play. Most monsters with truly obscene NA won't be able to play at such levels. (2) SR is not that great of an ability, ultimately. Often you will be fighting opponents higher level than you who have higher caster level than you, which devalues SR. They may also have Spell Penetration feats. Certainly SR 11+HD is a level appropriate ability for PCs - clerics can give 12+CL SR to characters with a spell. (3) Ability score bonuses - these make up for not getting class abilities. Easily duplicated by polymorph magic. (4) Immunities - easy to acquire at higher levels, might be somewhat worrisome at really low levels. But generally while the DM might make them relevant (Fire Elemental vs. someone with fire immunity), intelligent opponents are not going to try to fireball you repeatedly. (5) Reach... see polymorph or Enlarge Person. Only truly low level monsters with reach are at all a problem. (6) Blindsight - available around level 5 pretty easily. Not a problem. (7) spellcasting - agreed. See method above. Others: (1) Energy Drain - most monsters can only inflict it once/round. At the levels they'd become playable, this is not a problem. (2) Skill bonuses are easy to cheese anyway, not a problem. Most skills don't actually matter. (Watch out for Bluff/Diplomacy or UMD). (3) Feats - this is like a class ability, all good. (4) Fast movement - could be a problem at really low levels, but remember the monk gets this and the druid can certainly take advantage of this. (5) DR - not really that much of a problem, imo. Especially not reasonable for the monster's CR damage reduction. 5/- is perfectly ok, much less 5/something. 10/x is fine at higher levels. 15/x is pushing it, but pretty rare. You should have them encounter creatures capable of penetrating their DR every so often so they don't rely on it as a crutch - classed characters will almost certainly have ways of getting around it. (every party needs to be able to deal with it - similarly every NPC party should be able to deal with it).
Squirrelloid 04-19-07, 08:24 PM	I wouldn't have listed natural armor; it's handy at low levels, but unless it's quite high it'll quickly become outmoded compared to the AC from wildshape or 'morphs. Spellcasting close to ECL would be very nice, but what are some races that get that? Same with 70 ft base land speed; very nice, but who gets it? See Rakshasa and most fey for problematic caster monsters. Also, Dark Naga (iirc) has CL14 sorc spells at CR 11... eek!
Balthanon 04-19-07, 08:42 PM	I wouldn't have listed natural armor; it's handy at low levels, but unless it's quite high it'll quickly become outmoded compared to the AC from wildshape or 'morphs. Spellcasting close to ECL would be very nice, but what are some races that get that? Same with 70 ft base land speed; very nice, but who gets it? Sylph, from the Monster Manual II, picks up sorcerer casting 7 at ECL 8 with a number of other nice abilities. Ethergaunts of all sorts have wizard spellcasting close to their ECL, with the black being the best at ECL 20 and caster level 17. (And a +20 Int bonus. :)) For natural armor, I think it tends to be useful throughout. Particularly when polymorphing isn't an option, which can be frequent if the DM goes off of WotC's own errata and recommendations. Wildshape I don't consider as a valid method of determining whether abilities are obsolete or not. Just because one character class can duplicate an ability, that doesn't mean it isn't useful for the other 30 base classes in existence. Speed... I'm not sure if any have 70 foot speed off hand. I believe the Varag (goblinoid from MMIV) has a 60 or 70 ft speed though. It was basically just a number I pulled though.
Neutronium_Dragon 04-19-07, 10:05 PM	I would not include most of the things in the above list. The problem is that a static number degrades in value as levels increase and the scale of the numbers becomes larger. A +2 bonus to an ability score is significant at low level. By epic level a +2 bonus to an ability score is almost unnoticeable. An ability which scales, or which is at least dependent on something else which scales, is a better candidate for LA. Evasion scales because Reflex saves do, and as a property taking no damage instead of half damage scales because the damage values have also scaled (and thus the value of taking none instead of half is higher). On the other hand, it takes a lot of these abilities to make up for losing an actual class level, and this is where LA tends to fall flat on its face in many cases. Gaining Evasion as a bonus ability is nice, yes - but by itself it's not worth taking an LA for, especially since it's a low level class ability for several classes and in those it comes packaged with a bunch of other things.
Kemev 04-19-07, 11:02 PM	Step 1 - take the monster's CR. Add 1 because players are generally better at exploiting monster abilities. This is a new statistic: minimum starting level. A monster of that race may not be created as a character unless the APL is at least equal to the minimum starting level. Call Min Start Level X. Step 2 - Check HD. If HD = X, it starts with X racial HD. Easy. If HD < X, it can take X-HD class levels at character creation. For example, a monster with 4 racial HD and Min Start Level 7 starts the game with 4 racial HD and 3 class levels as a 7th level character, and cannot be started as a player character before that. (This has the odd effect that you can never play such a creature at class level 1 or 2... oh well.) If HD > X. This generally means there is no good way of quickly converting the monster to a PC race. The key things to achieve are to reduce the HD to X while keeping BAB approximately constant - generally accomplished by altering the nature of the HD. DM's discretion and involvement advised. Step 3 - Determine stats. Pair elite array against the monster's stats by comparing high stat to high stat, etc... subtract elite array from the monster's stats, round the remainder down. These are the stat mods. Allow the player to make any decisions on elite-monster stat pairings when there are multiple permissible pairings. Any stat pumps based on level accrued due to racial HD are lost, or at the DM's option one or more stat mods are reduced by an amount = the level based stat pumps owed. (for odd pumps this should generally have no effect on the stat mods, since you've been rounding down to find all those - generally only even numbers of pumps should be awarded). Step 4 - Determine abilities. The player gets all of the monsters abilities, but receives no gear typically carried by the monster unless he expends wealth to have that gear. Some very odd effects come from using this system. For example a minotaur (6 HD, CR 4), does not qualify as a playable race, though quite a few players find it a satisfying choice (low standard LA, powerful charge, substantial strength, scent, etc). But to experiment, let's take a standard troll through your steps. Step 1 - Troll is CR 5, +1 makes 6. Step 2 - Troll has 6 HD. It enters play at level 6, with no class levels. Step 3 - Compare stats to elite array. I'm acting as the player, so I get to choose most favorable pairings for the troll's two ties. Str: 23 - 15 = 8. So +8 strength. Con: 23 - 14 = 9. Round down, +8 con Dex: 14 - 13 = 1. No dex modifer. Bummer but not a big deal. Wis: 9 - 12 = -3. Round down again, -4 modifier. A slightly larger problem, for the player, but a sacrifice he's going to have to make apparently. Cha: 6 - 10 = -4. No problem; variant rule agrees with RAW Int: 6 - 8 = -2 ... Huh? It seems our wisdom and intelligence penalties have swapped places from the standard rules, and not in a good way. One could swap the int and charisma; but either way, your PC troll is going to be significantly smarter or prettier than average, while at the same time being more absent minded. A simple DM fiat could correct, but lets continue with what we have. Step 4 - abilities: - +5 natural armor - Natural attacks, 2 claws at 1d6+str, bite at 1d6+0.5 str - Rend, 2d6+1.5 str - Darkvision 90ft, low-light vision - Regeneration 5 - Scent A 6th level PC gets 13,000 gold, so let's get a monk's belt why not. So, let's go ahead and make a PC out of this guy... Figure a 32-point buy, so we'll get: Str 16, Dex 10, Con 16, Int 8, Wis 16 Cha 8. With racial modifiers, this comes to Str 24, Dex 10, Con 24, Int 6, Wis 12, Cha 4. Skills are easy: You have 1 point/level, and 2 skills to chose from. Max Spot. Feats: I could see a few ways to go, but mostly I want hurtin' and also want to stick with core, so Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Natural attack (unarmed strike) seem the way to go. Multiattack also seems handy. So for relative combat mods we get: Experiment Troll X Size/Type: Large Giant Hit Dice: 15+5d8+35 (72 hps) Initiative: +0 Speed: 30 ft. Armor Class: 16 (-1 size, +5 natural, +1 wis, +1 monk bonus) Base Attack/Grapple: +4/+15 Attack: Unarmed strike +10 (3d6+7) Full Attack: Unarmed strike +10 (3d6+7), 2 claws +8 (1d6+7), bite +8 (1d6+3) Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft. Special Attacks: Rend 2d6+10 Special Qualities: darkvision 90 ft., regen 5, scent Saves: Fort +12, Ref +2, Will +3 Hmm. The monk's belt might not have been the best choice yet; stat or resist buffs might have been better. Oh well, I will soldier on... So now let's compare with a more standard melee character at the same level: Bob, the Chump Fighter 2/Barbarian 4 Size/Type: Medium Chump Hit Dice: 15+3d12+2d10+15 (60 hps, or 72 w/rage) Initiative: +3 Speed: 30 ft. (medium armor) Armor Class: 21 (+6 armor, +3 dex, +1 deflect, +1 natural), or 19 when raging Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+9 Attack: +12 w/+2 guisarme (2d4+8) or +14 (2d4+11) while raging; or +10 mstwk armor spikes (1d6+4) or +12 armor spikes (1d6+5) while raging Full Attack: +12/+7 w/+2 guisarme (2d4+8) or +14/+9 (2d4+11) while raging; and so on and whatnot for armor spikes Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: rage 2/day Special Qualities: uncanny dodge, trap sense +1 Saves: Fort +10 (+12 w/ rage), Ref +3, Will +2 (+4 w/rage) Abilities: (Let's use a similar point spread to the troll) Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 12, Cha 8 Skills: who cares? Probably max Climb, Jump, Listen Feats: power attack, combat reflexes, combat expertise, improved trip, weapon focus (guisarme), weapon special (guisarme) Bob's relevant items: +2 guisarme, +1 breastplate with masterwork armor spikes, amulet of natural armor +1, ring of deflection +1 Note that I wrote this up while trying to not to judge the system; I just tried to write two character that would fit similar party roles and handle in a similar way. At first glance they might not seem too disparate, but I think Troll X comes out very far ahead. It's true that Bob has some advantages: a significant armor advantage (since Troll X is not proficient with any armor), more battlefield control options, and a slightly higher first attack. But Troll X's damage output makes pretty much any other 6th level character look paltry and ridiculous. At this point, Bob (or someone similar) is about the best mixin-it-up combatant you'd get with a typical adventuring party. The cleric doesn't have his best buffs yet, and the druid's wildshape options aren't great either, and his best animal companion option is probably the black bear (not impressive). Troll X can also do many more encounter per day than Bob; Bob only has two rages, and the party will need to spend more resources to clean him up after battle. I realize that by level 6, the party will have to deal with fire and acid damage, but for the most part, regeneration 5 is going to clean up most of the damage Troll X takes during the course of the day. Not to mention that Troll X serves as quite a good scout. Barbarians and fighters don't get spot; X does. With darkvision 90, Troll X is likely to have a good heads in battle. Also, scent will make it much more difficult for things to ambush the party. Overall, I think the troll as presented here would not be a good fit for a level 6 character. Troll X is going to be the center of the show; he'll be useless for social encounters, but again: massive damage potential. I suspect the rest of the party would get bored/resentful; instead of being "The Story of the Brave Adventurers," the campaign would degenerate into "The Story of Troll X and Friends." Everyone's been in that situation where all their character can contribute is buffing/healing the main character; noone likes it. If anyone thinks I've given Bob unfair treatment, or that they can demonsrate that Troll X is not overpowered in a 6th level party, I'm open to thoughts. But as is, I'm not inclined to support Squirrelloid's system. I'd like to see some other comparisons though, especially using races with caster levels (I don't have access to MM II or wherever ethergaunts are from). EDIT: Bob has weapon specialization, which he doesn't actually qualify for. Probably the best option is to drop power attack, weapon focus, and weapon special, and replace with dodge, mobility, and spring attack. Subtract 1 from all guisarme rolls, and 2 from its damage rolls.
runestar 04-19-07, 11:21 PM	Black ethergaunt is from fiend folio. It is ECL20, and has wiz17 spellcasting, in addition to some very nice special abilities(it gets around +20 int, IIRC). LA+3 caster race is more than worth it in this case. I compiled a list of monsters which had reasonable ECLs sometime back, but I forgot to bookmark it. It might still be floating around here somewhere....:embarrass
Argaud 04-19-07, 11:24 PM	Poor Troll X, someone swindled out of his gold by selling him a Monk's Belt. A much cheaper Mithril Chain Shirt +2 (5000 gold) would have given him AC20. Add Ring of Protection +1 and Amulet of Natural Armor +1 and X is ahead of Bob in AC too, further humbling the little guy.
Kemev 04-19-07, 11:58 PM	Poor Troll X, someone swindled out of his gold by selling him a Monk's Belt. A much cheaper Mithril Chain Shirt +2 (5000 gold) would have given him AC20. Add Ring of Protection +1 and Amulet of Natural Armor +1 and X is ahead of Bob in AC too, further humbling the little guy. Yeah... But I was unable to resist the idea of a massive monk-style unarmed strike. I envisioned it as a Muay Thai knee to the face. It also frees up the troll to use "armed" attacks and all of his natural attacks on a full attack action. And I was anticipating the following argument (it always comes up with non-humanoid PCs): Defender o' Bob: "But you can't enlarge person Troll X! The wizard has no buffs he can use on him! Bob is actually better!" Me: "Mage armor on Troll X! Eat it Bob's relative AC!" Defender o' Bob: "..." Defender o' Bob: "...Regeneration's not that good..."
JLaurHughes 04-20-07, 01:15 AM	Kemev do you own the Savage Species? If so, Read Introductory, Intermediate, and Advanced this starts on p.11 to p.22. This is a general guideline. There are examples in the book, if the LA seems high after calculating it using these guidelines then adjust accordingly, any monsters with 2-5 HD are always worth at least a +1 LA. Special abilities(SR, DR, Spell-like abilities, etc.) are worth a +1. SR that is based on HD with a base of 15 or less is worth a -1 adjustment. On DR - Slashing, Bludgeoning, Piercing. -1. DR - +1 to +5 Magic. +0. DR - Special materials. Adamantine, Mithril and the like +1. DR - Elemental(Fire, Ice/Cold, Force, Electricity, Sound). +1. DR - Multiple(DR Z/X or Y)/(DR Z/X and Y). -1 Calculate Each type separately. Natural armor, depends on the value. I would say no adjustment if there is +1 Natural or less. +2 to +5 Natural is +1 and for every 5 points above that add a +1 to the LA. Skill bonuses, for each +4 racial bonus applied to 3 skills or more +1 LA. This is my revised LA, still a work in progress.
Kemev 04-20-07, 01:54 AM	I seem to recall glancing through SS once or twice... Yeah, I have it and consider myself fairly familiar with it. The only things I actually enjoy from it are the winged and insectile templates. Basically, I don't think it does a good job of presenting monstrous characters. I've never had a player want to play one of the monster progressions as presented; they simply give up too much. And that was in 3 rd edition; monster classes seem even less appealing with the proliferation of spellcaster based abilities. It doesn't address the big issues: how do you effectively scale abilities (like natural armor, static SR, SLAs, etc...) that are useful at low levels, but become dead weight later on? How can you make level-adjusted monsters relevant to casters (who, let's face it, dominate high level play)? You know how for some templates, it gives the CR as: For HD 1-3, CR +1, for HD 4-7, CR +2... I feel like there should be an inverted way of doing that for level adjustment... Something like: For ECL 1-5, LA +3, For ECL 6-10, LA+2... Preferrably something better than the current level buyoff system, which works ok for things without racial HD and LA < 3. And I'd prefer if there were some sensical way to do it that didn't involve tweaking and play-testing each monster.
Balthanon 04-20-07, 07:39 AM	I would not include most of the things in the above list. The problem is that a static number degrades in value as levels increase and the scale of the numbers becomes larger. A +2 bonus to an ability score is significant at low level. By epic level a +2 bonus to an ability score is almost unnoticeable. That is true. However, only to an extent and partially dependent on the size of the static bonus. In general, AC/attack bonus/etc... are more or less intended to scale as you level such that rolling a 10 or 11 on a d20 is likely to result in success. (With more or less success in some cases.) If you then add a static bonus on top of that, if you are still scaling other factors such that most attempts should be successful on a 10 or 11 that goes up or down. Maybe you only have to consistently roll a 6 or 7 to hit or the enemies need a 13 or 14 to hit you. Truthfully, I'm of the opinion that a +2 isn't worth much at any point when it comes to ability scores. I would want that at high levels as much as I would low. +4 is slightly more significant and +6 is where ability score bonuses really start making a significant difference in a character. Part of that is what I said above, another factor in this is that frequently, ability score bonuses are applied to more statistics the higher you get in level. At 1st level, you are more or less restricted to the basics-- maybe you'll also have Dexterity affecting attack rolls, Wisdom to AC, but for the most part, Str does what Str does, Dexterity affects its own set of stats, etc... By 20th level, you might have Charisma applying to AC, saves, attack rolls and 7 other different checks. Or Dexterity handling attack, damage, and other areas. Partially, the additional profusion of types of bonuses is going to minimize static bonuses-- but eventually you get to the point where you have maxed out all of the set bonuses you have available. And once everyone has that same set of bonuses that stack with each other, the edge is going to go to the untyped bonuses that only a few can get, much like the ones you get from racial abilities.
runestar 04-20-07, 07:55 AM	I have mentioned it before a couple of times, but I think the ghaele works quite well as a PC, despite having a LA of +10(for a total ECL of 20). Astral deva is not too shabby either, as is the trumpet archon(if you are willing to pay the equivalent of LA+6 for better stats and immunities on top of a cleric14 build). It is a weird anomaly, I guess(a playable race with LA+10??:eek: ). Probably why they did not give it a LA in 3.5. With so many special abilities crammed into 1 package, no amount of LA can do justice to all those powers. But they tried, and it turned out fairly decent, IMO.:)
Balthanon 04-20-07, 08:04 AM	Probably why they did not give it a LA in 3.5. With so many special abilities crammed into 1 package, no amount of LA can do justice to all those powers. But they tried, and it turned out fairly decent, IMO.:) They didn't give a LA in the Monster Manual, they did end up doing so in the Book of Exalted Deeds though (which is 3.5). I honestly think it depends on the designer in question as to whether a level adjustment hits the mark or not. That's part of the reason Monster Manuals are so hit or miss-- different monsters by different developers.
Squirrelloid 04-20-07, 09:39 AM	Some very odd effects come from using this system. For example a minotaur (6 HD, CR 4), does not qualify as a playable race, though quite a few players find it a satisfying choice (low standard LA, powerful charge, substantial strength, scent, etc). Well, this just means that something like the minotaur needs special DM intervention to make it playable. There are a couple of logical solutions, none of which are really automatable. On the one hand you could just give it 5RHD (=CR+1) and call it fair. On the other, you could make it minimum level 6 with 6 RHD. But without looking at every such monster, determining which should be the preferred method is hard. In general, I support the DM helping players play what they want to. Step 4 - abilities: - +5 natural armor - Natural attacks, 2 claws at 1d6+str, bite at 1d6+0.5 str - Rend, 2d6+1.5 str - Darkvision 90ft, low-light vision - Regeneration 5 - Scent This doesn't really seem that out of line for level 6. A druid's AC has had scent since level 1, so that's nothing new. The most worrisome ability there is Regeneration 5, and only because opponents will need fire and acid to permanently deal with you - exceeding your current hp by 20 with nonlethal damage will keep you out of the fight until they can deal with you permanently, it just means you don't have to roll up a new character as frequently. (Fewer lucky kills) A 6th level PC gets 13,000 gold, so let's get a monk's belt why not. I can actually see why you got this, but I'm not totally convinced you wouldn't be better off with some sane choices like the mithril shirt recommended by Argaud. Its not like this adds much to your damage potential compared to the IUS feat. So, let's go ahead and make a PC out of this guy... Figure a 32-point buy, so we'll get: Str 16, Dex 10, Con 16, Int 8, Wis 16 Cha 8. With racial modifiers, this comes to Str 24, Dex 10, Con 24, Int 6, Wis 12, Cha 4. Skills are easy: You have 1 point/level, and 2 skills to chose from. Max Spot. This is just a problem with PC class design. All classes should have spot and listen in class, except for maybe the wizard. These are people who make their living by adventuring around in dangerous places... Hit Dice: 15+5d8+35 (72 hps) Initiative: +0 Speed: 30 ft. Armor Class: 16 (-1 size, +5 natural, +1 wis, +1 monk bonus) Attack: Unarmed strike +10 (3d6+7) Full Attack: Unarmed strike +10 (3d6+7), 2 claws +8 (1d6+7), bite +8 (1d6+3) Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft. Special Attacks: Rend 2d6+10 Special Qualities: darkvision 90 ft., regen 5, scent Saves: Fort +12, Ref +2, Will +3 Bob, the Chump Fighter 2/Barbarian 4 Hit Dice: 15+3d12+2d10+15 (60 hps, or 72 w/rage) Initiative: +3 Speed: 30 ft. (medium armor) Armor Class: 21 (+6 armor, +3 dex, +1 deflect, +1 natural), or 19 when raging Attack: +12 w/+2 guisarme (2d4+8) or +14 (2d4+11) while raging; or +10 mstwk armor spikes (1d6+4) or +12 armor spikes (1d6+5) while raging Full Attack: +12/+7 w/+2 guisarme (2d4+8) or +14/+9 (2d4+11) while raging; and so on and whatnot for armor spikes Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: rage 2/day Special Qualities: uncanny dodge, trap sense +1 Saves: Fort +10 (+12 w/ rage), Ref +3, Will +2 (+4 w/rage) Abilities: (Let's use a similar point spread to the troll) Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 12, Cha 8 Skills: who cares? Probably max Climb, Jump, Listen Feats: power attack, combat reflexes, combat expertise, improved trip, weapon focus (guisarme), weapon special (guisarme) Bob's relevant items: +2 guisarme, +1 breastplate with masterwork armor spikes, amulet of natural armor +1, ring of deflection +1 Note, I'd probably take Chain Shirt over breastplate to benefit from the 40' move - it only drops your AC by 1. Note that I wrote this up while trying to not to judge the system; I just tried to write two character that would fit similar party roles and handle in a similar way. At first glance they might not seem too disparate, but I think Troll X comes out very far ahead. It's true that Bob has some advantages: a significant armor advantage (since Troll X is not proficient with any armor), more battlefield control options, and a slightly higher first attack. But Troll X's damage output makes pretty much any other 6th level character look paltry and ridiculous. At this point, Bob (or someone similar) is about the best mixin-it-up combatant you'd get with a typical adventuring party. The cleric doesn't have his best buffs yet, and the druid's wildshape options aren't great either, and his best animal companion option is probably the black bear (not impressive). The best AC option is deinonychus, which is actually rather awesome (pounce!) I'm not convinced the Troll comes out as far ahead as you think - I also don't think the Barbarian or Fighter is a great example of a balanced class either - its pretty low on the power scale. Troll X can also do many more encounter per day than Bob; Bob only has two rages, and the party will need to spend more resources to clean him up after battle. I realize that by level 6, the party will have to deal with fire and acid damage, but for the most part, regeneration 5 is going to clean up most of the damage Troll X takes during the course of the day. The party invests in some Wands of Lesser Vigor and have Bob back up to snuff in no time. The troll is slightly cheaper, but its barely noticeable. Not to mention that Troll X serves as quite a good scout. Barbarians and fighters don't get spot; X does. With darkvision 90, Troll X is likely to have a good heads in battle. Also, scent will make it much more difficult for things to ambush the party. Well, he makes a great rear-guard. Scouts need Hide/MS as well as spot - which means the party ranger or rogue is going to be doing that. Overall, I think the troll as presented here would not be a good fit for a level 6 character. Troll X is going to be the center of the show; he'll be useless for social encounters, but again: massive damage potential. I suspect the rest of the party would get bored/resentful; instead of being "The Story of the Brave Adventurers," the campaign would degenerate into "The Story of Troll X and Friends." Only if everything can be solved with brute strength. If the rest of the party is R/W/C, then everyone has their chance to shine. Some combats Troll will just tear into whatever the opposition is, and some combats he'll get charm monstered or held (certainly you expect to see enemy mages with Charm Monster around 6th level - that's only a CR+1 mage) and the rest of the party will need to deal with it. Or blinded, glitterdusted, webbed (he'll break free, but it'll take him awhile to get out of the web), greased (balance check? what balance check?), stuck behind an illusory wall, color-sprayed, etc... And sometimes the enemy will harass from range and the Troll won't be able to do anything then either (the Barbarian can and should carry a bow). If the party never faces anything but melee threats, then maybe he's overpowered. But he's a blunt tool for blunt tasks - different challenges will require different characters. Everyone's been in that situation where all their character can contribute is buffing/healing the main character; noone likes it. And Troll is useless if he can't or shouldn't whack the enemy with his claws. If anyone thinks I've given Bob unfair treatment, or that they can demonsrate that Troll X is not overpowered in a 6th level party, I'm open to thoughts. But as is, I'm not inclined to support Squirrelloid's system. I'd like to see some other comparisons though, especially using races with caster levels (I don't have access to MM II or wherever ethergaunts are from). In the context of party balance, the troll looks balanced to me. Other party members will contribute in very different ways and not be overshadowed by the troll. You built a melee bruiser, and that's really the only thing a troll can do well - he can't even occupy other niches. In the context of monster opposition - I haven't looked extensively, but it should be about right because of what CR is supposed to mean. How much LA do you think the troll deserves? 1? (Ie, which do you think is closer - the system above or the LA in the published splats).
runestar 04-20-07, 10:06 AM	Biggest problem is still regeneration. Few foes are actually equipped to overcome regeneration, so your troll is very hard to kill(there is a big difference between merely being knocked unconscious and being reduced to -10 or more outright). If you simply replace it with fast healing, I think you can shave at least LA+2 right off the bat.:)
Squirrelloid 04-20-07, 10:43 AM	Biggest problem is still regeneration. Few foes are actually equipped to overcome regeneration, so your troll is very hard to kill(there is a big difference between merely being knocked unconscious and being reduced to -10 or more outright). If you simply replace it with fast healing, I think you can shave at least LA+2 right off the bat.:) I honestly don't have a problem with combat being less lethal for the meleer. I mean, if its a TPK, he's still going to die. The creature will just go get fire most of the time. (Yes, there are low-unintelligent foes who won't. Not being dead doesn't help you when you're 500 nonlethal damage over your hp however as the golem continues to bash you because you just won't die). If its not a TPK, bad luck (or what have you) won't have made you roll up a new character - and the rest of the party still had to sweat that encounter.
Argaud 04-20-07, 10:56 AM	Biggest problem is still regeneration. Few foes are actually equipped to overcome regeneration, so your troll is very hard to kill(there is a big difference between merely being knocked unconscious and being reduced to -10 or more outright). If you simply replace it with fast healing, I think you can shave at least LA+2 right off the bat.:) Although regeneration is valuable, at the end it is just saving some gold. Having 5 hp more each round is like having 20-30 hp more in your total hit points in a battle, and that gets weaker as the hit point total and the damage enemies does increase with levels. Then the trolls is maybe saving 1000 gold each level from saving charges from a wand of healing. How frequently die characters in your game? Raise Dead is 5,000 gold and one level you are going to eventually recover. And the troll still dies from SoD spells and certain types of damage they aren't that strange. Is that worth LA+2 as SS says, or even LA+1? Hell, no way! Regeneration is vastly overrated in the official LA system.
Squirrelloid 04-20-07, 11:53 AM	Doing some more conversions... these are mostly chosen at random from the SRD: Aranea Its a spellcaster, and its RHD = caster level, but without massive stat mods so that might be ok. Step 1: CR 4 +1 = 5 = Minimum Level Step 2: RHD = 3 Step 3: Stat modifiers after subtracting elite array: +2 Str +2 Wis +2 Cha Step 4: Bite attack w/ Poison (DC13 1d6/2d6 Str), Web (as net, 5/day, str DC 17 to break), Change Shape, darkvision, low-light vision, +2 racial (Jump, Listen, Spot), +8 racial climb and take 10, +1 NA, 50' move speed, 25' climb, Iron Will (B), 3 levels sorceror casting. 3d10 RHD, +3 BAB, F+R favored, 2+int skills (climb, concentration, escape artist, jump, listen, spot) So, its a minimum level 5, 3RHD monster that already has sorceror levels. It gets some minor stat mods (the +2 cha that sorcs are going to care about is easily available already), darkvision and LLV (handy, but not hard to get), a natural web attack, a poisoned bite attack - not so useful if you're a caster, improved speed, minor Change Shape abilities (mostly disguises it), minor skill bonuses, and a bonus feat that just reinforces your strong save. The relevant abilities are 50' move speed, 3 sorceror caster levels, and the stat mods. Now, given sorceror is already the weak little brother of wizard, this doesn't bother me too much, and if you're already using the battle sorceror variant from UA, this stacks up pretty comparably. Obviously you grab Sorc 2 (sorc CL 5) for your 2 class levels at 5th level, and you have some unique options when it comes to attack modes if you have to fight, but I'm not going to call this horribly overpowered. Of course, if someone wants to play a regular sorceror alongside someone else wanting to use Aranea, you should disallow this as a race choice - but that's mostly because Sorceror gets *no class abilities* other than spellcasting. (If they actually got bonus feats or something they'd be competitive with this.) Alternately, you might balance it by making the Aranea take a 4th RHD with no additional benefits from doing so (though they should get the level pump to a stat) - that puts them a CL behind, which is pretty significant. So here's a case where a spellcasting monster can be appropriate, so long as the benefits are sufficiently minor and many of them don't line up well with its spellcasting role. Bugbear Step 1: CR 2 +1 = 3 = minimum level Step 2: RHD = 3. We're good. Step 3: -2 Dex -2 Con -2 one of Int or Wis (ouch) Step 4: +3 NA, darkvision, scent 3 RHD (humanoid): +2 BAB, Ref favored, d8 HD, 2+int skills (climb, hide, listen, move silently, spot), simple weapons, light armor, shields Ew. This is a case where using 10s as the base would lead to reasonable stat mods (+4 str +2 dex +2 con -2 cha), and with 3 crappy racial HD it doesn't even deserve the LA it has. Note: Sometimes using 10s as your array to figure out stat mods is acceptable - probably for 'humanoid' type monsters, because they have really bad racial HD. There's a reason having DM involvement is important. I consider the +1 LA listed for Bugbears a bad joke - seriously, those 3 RHD are so bad even the stat mods assuming standard array don't begin to make it worthwhile. Grey Render Step 1: CR 8+1 = 9 Step 2: 10RHD... uh-oh. I'm going to make its minimum level 10 with 10RHD - that should work out reasonably well. (only off by 1 makes the approximation not so bad - the farther off this is, the more problematic). Step 3: +8 Str -2 Dex +8 Con -6 Int -2 Wis -2 Cha Step 4: Improved Grab, Rend (2d6+1.5 str), Bite/Claw/Claw, Darkvision, LLV, scent, large (10' reach), +10 NA RHD (magical beast): +10 BAB, d10HD, good Fort and Ref, 2+int skills (hide, spot, survival) Looks level appropriate to me. Has high numbers for NA and str/con, but it can't do *anything* but melee. And the total stat penalties *are* going to hurt. He's seriously not doing anything a Druid at his level isn't doing, and the druid has spellcasting. Phantom Fungus This is a plant, which means its going to be really weird. It also has Greater Invisibility at a way early level. But lets see if its really that unplayable. Step 1: CR 3 + 1 = 4 = minimum level Step 2: RHD 2. It starts with 2 RHD and 2 class levels Step 3: -2 dex -6 int -2 wis -2 cha Step 4: Bite attack, no hands, +4 NA, LLV, Imm mind-affecting, Imm {poison, sleep, paralysis, polymorph, stun}, Imm Crits, Greater Invisibility (permanently) that cannot be purged (but vulnerable to glitterdust), +5 racial move silently 2 RHD (plant): d8, +1 BAB, good fort, 2+int skills (listen, move silently, spot) Ok, so its immune to a bunch of stuff, has a really crappy offense, but is permanently invisible. A player might enjoy playing this as a rogue, but you can't attack at range and will need to take IUS to get iterative attacks, and that makes getting magical enhancement expensive. You also *can't talk*. And those stat penalties suck for a rogue. I think its probably balanced. I think it would mostly suck to play, however. Kolyarut This is a construct, which means the DM is going to have to figure out what having a con score of - means for PB. Recommendation: reduce available points by 1/7 of total (slight advantage on stat buy, but he does have fewer hp because he can't pump con so its a long-term disadvantage). Step 1: CR 12 +1 = 13 = minimum level Step 2: 13 RHD Step 3: +2 Wis +2 Cha - that's not very exciting Step 4: +10 NA, vampiric touch (5d6, CL 13) melee attack, enervation at will, Spell-likes (at-will disguise self, discern lies, fear, hold person, invisibility, locate creature, suggestion, 1/day: hold monster, mark of justice, 1/week geas/quest CL = HD), +4 racial disguise, gather information, sense motive, Darkvision, LLV, Imm mind-affecting, Imm {poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, necromancy effects}, no natural healing (no cure spells), Imm {critical hits, nonlethal, ability damage, ability drain, fatigue, exhaustion, energy drain}, Imm most fort saves, no death from massive damage, dead at 0 (no resurrection), DR 10/chaotic, fast healing 5, SR 8+HD, 13 RHD (construct): +9 BAB, d10 HD, no good saves, 2 + int skills (diplomacy, disguise, gather info, listen, search, sense motive, spot, survival), no con score, +20 bonus hp (med construct) This has a lot of benefits but also a lot of limitations. Being dead as soon as it hits 0 with no con score for massive bonus hp really hurts. The immunities help make up for the craptastic saves - anything its not immune to could really ream it. Spell-likes are mostly flavorful and not overpowering. By 13th level Vampiric Touch and Enervation at-will aren't totally overpowered. Doesn't fit well into a party however (not a front-line fighter, can't replace a full caster), but might make a good 5th member.
Kemev 04-20-07, 08:08 PM	Squirelloid: I still don't think you're comparing the troll build effectively. Also, you introduce elements in your argument that are not from core rules. First of all, the troll build is admittedly a combat specialist. I think I mentioned that several times. So it's really only fair to consider his role to other melee characters. I think Bob is a fair example of a standard race and class, maximized for 6th level melee combat. If you can produce a better Bob, have at it. ...The druid can't even use deinonychus yes; it's a large animal. And again, the cleric doesn't have its buffs yet to make it the melee force it becomes later. As I said, the only other comparison to the troll is the animal companion, which even with natural bond and being the target of the druid's buffs, is still not remotely close. I don't see it being fair to say, "The troll is not overpowered because it doesn't also do social encounters or cast spells." Well, neither does a Bob-type character. Similarly, I don't see it being relevant that the troll can't balance, or make will saves, etc... Bob can't do those things either. And if you want the troll to be better at ranged warfare, drop the belt and the wis modifier, buy some dex, and get a ranged weapon (remember, giants are proficient with all martial weapons). My argument is that a standard 4 person party at about level 6 is going to have a skill monkey, a combatant, a divine caster, and an arcane caster. The troll is going to be vastly better than any other 6th level combatants in standard races and classes, and so I don't think it is balanced. This is why I think that for LA to work, there needs to be an effective sliding scale for handling static abilities. I don't see your system handling that issue Squirrelloid. All you've done is front loaded a more powerful character into a party, so now it's unbalanced at the level it's introduced, and it still doesn't resolve the problem of its most useful abilities become progressively less and less useful.
spasheridan 04-20-07, 09:54 PM	I do think that a good LA system has to have some PC class comparison to make it work. My unfinished thoughts on it would be something like: 1) Ignore shapeshift / polymorph / alter self / PAO - those are obviously game-breaking abilities - when doing LA comparison. 2) Consider what role the monster will take in the party. Classics include Tank, healer, sneak, face, mage. The best comparison is going to be a class build as close to the monster as possible - so straight melee fighters should be compared to a barbarian, tactical combatants should be compared to a fighter, resistant monsters might be Paladins... the CR's in the MM were designed with these iconic classes in mind. 3) Stat out an elite array PC with the class that most closely resmbles the monster and compare. Thankfully I can't imagine many monsters being good casters, so you can stick to the monk / ranger / fighter / barbarian / paladin / rogue class if you're lucky. @squirelloid: I think your compare CR to HD idea is a good starting place - so checking out the troll.. I don't see a level 6 barbarian stacking up with this guy. A 1/2 Orc is going to be Str 18 (elite arrays are not awesome) compared to the 23(24?) of the troll. They're close in melee, the troll getting more (and better) attacks, but the Regen 5 is just too good. And the +4 AC that the troll gets - put some full plate on this monster (1 level of fighter) and give him some level appropriate magic items and he's got an AC as high as a halfling but hitting as hard as a barbarian. ANd - gear wise - you don't even need to buy it to compare, you just take these 2 characters naked and see who's better, they would both get the same gear. BUT - your system does a good job of getting close to an approriate ECL, which I think is impressive.
Gharlane 04-20-07, 10:17 PM	You can't assign a fixed LA cost to specific abilities - the system breaks down pretty rapidly. It's more of a power function where you require increasingly large benefits to increment the LA. It's further complicated by racial HD. The racial HD basically become class levels in a monster class and soak some of the cost of the abilites / powers gained (they effectively become the monsters class abilites). Generally when a monster has a huge LA it's because it does not gain suffienct HD to contain its abilites. It also tends to mean that it's CR is too low or that the abilities are foolishly being balanced by giving the monster lower hit points. That was a big problem with fiends in 3.0 who never got to do any of their cool stuff because they died so rapidly. You can see it in 3.5 with the Pixie; it has lots of neat stuff that would be fun to use in play, but it has 1 HD (which will be replaced) by a base class level. All those abilites cannot possibly fit into 1 HD, so it's given a large LA. A better solution would have been to give it more HD, reducing the LA (not necessarily in a 1:1 ratio). Less often, you have the opposite problem: A creature does not gain suffient abilites to justify its HD, much less gaining a LA. A good example would be the mohrg monster class from Libris Mortis - it's progression actually has dead levels. It doesn't gain enough stuff to justify 14 HD, much less a LA beyond that. This brings up another LA balance point when dealing with racial HD- creature type matters. Fey raical HD are almost a penalty, whereas dragon HD are a boon. The only monster classes I've ever written that don't have pre-assigned LA are the Kolyarut and the Marut. Trying to 'fill the levels' is probably one of the best ways to determine a creatures LA. You can view them from the link in my signature.
Balthanon 04-20-07, 10:59 PM	Personally, I've been wondering whether a mixture of level adjustment and experience costs might work better for handling monster characters. It can work to effectively provide a minimum level for some abilities, which seems like it could be useful. And at higher levels, it isn't the same static bonus as level adjustment, which means it will go away. It has the same problem as basic level adjustments though, in that you would need to create the XP costs and level adjustments and determine appropriate prices-- which will probably break on the 3rd or 4th use. :)
Kemev 04-21-07, 07:07 AM	A thought for Squirrelloid: how does your proposed system handle races with level adjustments but no RHD? Also, how would it work for a templated creature? Another comparison problem: Drow would seem to enter play as level 2 characters without penalty. This seems unacceptable. (The stat block only presents a sample from an NPC class, based off the non-elite array. A PC class -- which I assume the players want -- would be based off an elite array. So the drow's ability adjustments would be as presented. Taking it the other way and basing the ability adjustments off the non-elite array results in a drow with down syndrome: unplayable ever.)
Kemev 04-21-07, 07:09 AM	Personally, I've been wondering whether a mixture of level adjustment and experience costs might work better for handling monster characters. It can work to effectively provide a minimum level for some abilities, which seems like it could be useful. And at higher levels, it isn't the same static bonus as level adjustment, which means it will go away. It has the same problem as basic level adjustments though, in that you would need to create the XP costs and level adjustments and determine appropriate prices-- which will probably break on the 3rd or 4th use. :) I don't really understand what you mean by an experience cost. Can you explain some more please? (Sorry for the double post.)
Balthanon 04-21-07, 08:52 AM	I don't really understand what you mean by an experience cost. Can you explain some more please? (Sorry for the double post.) If scaling spell resistance was set as a +1 level adjustment, flying might be a 5000 experience point cost. So a creature with both, would have a +1 LA as normal, but would also need to spend 5000 experience. Starting at ECL 6, that should equal out to an ECL 5 creature with a character level of 4. Lower than that and the player is going to be dropping more than 1 level, higher and he's not quite dropping an entire level. (And may well be within any "crafting" buffer the DM is handing out, if you have a DM that does that.) It is to an extent like level adjustment buy off, except only certain abilities that will eventually be less worthwhile at high levels would contribute like this. I got the idea by looking at armor and weapon special abilities-- some contribute a +1 modifier while others just add a flat +x000 cost to the price. This is along those same lines.
Squirrelloid 04-21-07, 11:42 AM	For brevity, its going to be easier not to quote. Templates: Honestly, the system isn't meant to deal with them. Templates require a different system because they work differently from monsters. (similarly, 1HD monsters are basically templates). The quick fix is to give them racial HD = LA. This makes their abilities RHD class abilities, and doesn't hose them on HD. However, this is aesthetically unpleasing because Drow *want* to be clerics and wizards, except they don't because of LA, and they wouldn't because of RHD under that method. So clearly there is a problem. Drow have +2 LA, right? So, another quick fix is to say that Drow have a minimum start level of "3" (actually, a minimum start xp would be better: 8000xp), but must pay 4000 or 5000 xp to be a Drow. They'll start 1.5 levels down, and eventually they'll catch up when their racial abilities matter less. It still hurts to be a drow wizard, but not as much as having LA. A final solution is to have everyone agree on a base LA - anyone can play up to an LA +N template/1HD monster race without penalty (and heck, an N RHD+LA monster race - we'll let them replace RHD with class levels after the LA is gone). The DM will have to ad hoc judge CR a lot of times, but the party *should* be balanced. Troll: There are a couple of problems here. The first thing I'm worried about is *party balance* - that no party members feel overshadowed. There is no way the Troll is overshadowing the Cleric or Wizard, and the rogue actually outdamages him. Everyone is doing something different, so the Troll is actually ok from the party perspective. The Troll's CR, if its appropriate, tells us that he's also ok vs. monsters. Now, the Troll's CR may not be appropriate - it has often been touted as an under-CRed monster (really, it goes something like this: a troll is CR4 at range, CR6 in a dungeon, and CR9 in a closet. Being in a party pushes it more towards that 6-9 range, because when he matters those are the situations he'll be in). So maybe he needs a higher minimum level. Part of the problem here is that the melee classes are *underpowered*. This means comparing an appropriate-level creature to a barbarian is going to show that the barbarian is underpowered, because he is. The paragon of balance is the rogue, and the optimal meleer is the druid. (Deinonychus is a medium animal, btw. Look here. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dinosaur.htm#deinonychus)) Cleric is not far behind, and makes an amazing archer. Wizards are the master of battlefield control. Those are the classes things have to compete with or they just aren't worthy. Balancing against anything else is blatantly ignoring the reality of the situation. Unless you want people to just play C/D/W(/R) - at which point the monster classes are useless because they don't get used. (melee base classes in the PHB become ineffective against appropriate CR monsters in mid-high levels, so its not just that they are less powerful than CoDzilla, its that they can't even be useful against monsters). So is the troll a better meleer than a barbarian? Sure. He's actually a level-appropriate meleer.
Squirrelloid 04-21-07, 11:45 AM	If scaling spell resistance was set as a +1 level adjustment, flying might be a 5000 experience point cost. So a creature with both, would have a +1 LA as normal, but would also need to spend 5000 experience. Starting at ECL 6, that should equal out to an ECL 5 creature with a character level of 4. Lower than that and the player is going to be dropping more than 1 level, higher and he's not quite dropping an entire level. (And may well be within any "crafting" buffer the DM is handing out, if you have a DM that does that.) It is to an extent like level adjustment buy off, except only certain abilities that will eventually be less worthwhile at high levels would contribute like this. I got the idea by looking at armor and weapon special abilities-- some contribute a +1 modifier while others just add a flat +x000 cost to the price. This is along those same lines. Scaling Spell Resistance is available as a cleric spell, so its not worth LA. However, XP costs could be a reasonable solution. The necessary goal is that a monsters ECL cannot exceed its HD, because that's bad mechanically for the character and for the game.
Balthanon 04-21-07, 12:18 PM	Scaling Spell Resistance is available as a cleric spell, so its not worth LA. However, XP costs could be a reasonable solution. The necessary goal is that a monsters ECL cannot exceed its HD, because that's bad mechanically for the character and for the game. You've established that's what you feel-- I do think there are places where level adjustment is appropriate and works well for balancing out the abilities of the character. As an example, even in a party composed entirely of base races with classes, I typically have 1 or 2 players that are a level higher than party average, a few at party average, and 1 or 2 that are under. This is typically just a matter of attendance, however, I haven't noticed it as being detrimental to what the party can accomplish as a whole. In my current online game, in fact, I've been introducing new characters at ECL 8 versus ECL 10 and haven't had a problem. (Not to mention I have two characters with level adjustment as well.) The game does have some flexibility built into it-- a level adjustment of +8 or +10 may introduce some glaring weaknesses, but I have never experienced an issue with 2 or 3. An ability is not necessarily negated by being available in one or two places either-- parties have finite resources and if a player has permanent, racial abilities that is fewer resources that are eaten up to create that same effects that are available to do other things.
Argaud 04-21-07, 12:53 PM	I would generalize: That there is a spell somewhere that somehow allows a caster to duplicate the innate traits of a creature does not mean the creature is not unbalanced with an LA+0 class. For instance, there is a spell that grants spell resistance, does it means innate SR is irrelevant? Nope. That spell is a level 5 cleric spell that last 1 minute per level. What if there is not a level 9+ cleric in the party? What if the enemy casts a spell to the party member outside of that 1 min/level time that the spell covers? If it was something that every class (or at least, most of them) can have all the time that matters (like flight at mid-high level) it would be different. But stuff like SR does not come easy or cheap.
Kemev 04-21-07, 04:19 PM	A final solution is to have everyone agree on a base LA - anyone can play up to an LA +N template/1HD monster race without penalty (and heck, an N RHD+LA monster race - we'll let them replace RHD with class levels after the LA is gone). The DM will have to ad hoc judge CR a lot of times, but the party *should* be balanced. This is a solution I've played with in a couple campaigns. Everyone was basically forgiven a few (2-4) levels from LA, and everyone had the same HD (whether racial or class). It seemed to work out pretty well. To ensure that standard races didn't get lost in the shuffle, I let players in lower LA races keep an experience "pool" that they could use on spells and crafting. Figuring CR wasn't too hard; I just kept most encounters on the long end of difficult. The players leveled quickly, which I didn't see as a problem because they soon reached a level at the point which their LA didn't mean much. The experience cost system seems promising, although you would have to go through and assign a cost to each ability, which could be tiresome (and possibly arbitrary). Standard trolls do sort of suck as monsters, but it's my view that many core monsters (some outsiders and well-built dragons being notable exceptions) have become outdated with the massive wave of splats. The MM III trolls (except crystalline; he just exists to make PCs with sonic damage feel good) seem to provide more bang for their CR; this seems to be the case with most of the MM III encounters I've run or played in.