Babau? [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

Babau? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
imakuni67
10-18-07, 01:51 PM Anyone have babau's LA? I'd like to make a babau wizard/sorcerer build to take arcane trickster, as babau have natural sneak attack +2d6 :P
Wight_Chocolate
10-18-07, 01:57 PM The SRD simply gives their level adjustment as "-".

You'll probably have to get a copy of Savage Species and work it out based on the thing's abilities.
imakuni67
10-18-07, 02:04 PM Does anyone other than me hate Wizards tendency to nerf/restrict players from wanting to play evil characters. They give LA's for all the most of the archon and angels on the SRD, but the majority of the devils and demons aren't given. Heck, they even give you a section on Hound Archons as PC's! *grumble grumble*
Wight_Chocolate
10-18-07, 02:26 PM There are only three types of archon in the SRD and two of them are given level adjustments, so yes, I suppose "most" of them have them. Only one angel has a level adjustment, and that's the Astral Deva. In terms of other celestials, only the Bralani Eladrin is given a level adjustment, bringing the total up to 4.

In contrast, out of devils and demons, the Barbazu, Kyton, Erinyes, Dretch, Hezrou, Succubus and Vrock all have given LAs, for a total of 7.

I don't think I see what you're complaining about.
Darth Sephiroth
10-18-07, 04:05 PM For the Babau I'd guess it just uses it's racial HD so it's a 7th level character.
Wight_Chocolate
10-18-07, 04:10 PM For the Babau I'd guess it just uses it's racial HD so it's a 7th level character.

Unfortunately, that doesn't work.

For races like this, they start with the an appropriate number of levels in Outsider or Monstrous Humanoid or whatever. Then you apply the level adjustment, which is based on how powerful the creature is, and then you start adding class levels.

Just going by hit dice results, in most cases, in a character that has a lower effective level than they should have, and thus one that is overpowered.
SunTzuWarmaster
10-18-07, 06:48 PM I would play it as a LA +7 (including 7 racial hit dice) without the Summon Babau ability, and a 1-3x/day Greater Teleport (scaled up to "at will" at 10th level or so). and a toned down BAB of +6 or +5.

I think that the above array of abilities is something that a character of this level should be able to do (the slime is just flavor at this level anyways).
Borris
10-18-07, 08:23 PM Let's acid test the babau to see what its LA should be.
Now, one might be tempted to compare it to a rogue, what with its high number of skills and sneak attack, but with its high stenght and full BAB, I'd rather compare it to the game's other stealthy fighter: namely the ranger.

Let's see what we have here. I gave each character the elite array given in the DMG for a ranger. For the sake of comparison, I also gave the human ranger weapons appropriate to his level, although both the human and babau should normally have gear suited to their ECL.

Babau Ranger 1
HD 7d8+42 + 1d8+6 (87 hp)
Armor Class 21
Attack 2 claws +15 melee (1d6+7) and bite +10 melee (1d6+3)
Saves Fort +11, Ref +10, Will +6
Abilities Str 24, Dex 17, Con 23, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 14
Skill Points 128
Feats 3 (plus Track)
Other Sneak attack +2d6, spell-like abilities, damage reduction 10/cold iron or good, immunity to electricity and poison, protective slime, resistance to acid 10, cold 10, and fire 10, spell resistance 14, telepathy 100 ft.

Human Ranger 12
HD 12d8+24 (73 hp)
Armor Class 14
Attack +1 longsword +13/+8/+3 (1d8+3) and +1 short sword +13/+8 (1d6+2)
Saves Fort +10, Ref +12, Will +5
Abilities Str 14, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8
Skill Points 105
Feats 6 (plus Track, Endurance, Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting)
Other Favored enemy, animal companion, spells, woodland stride, swift tracker, evasion

At this level, the human ranger still has fewer hit points than the babau, and a much lower AC (he could wear a chain shirt, but so could the babau). Despite the human bonus and more hit dice, the ranger still has less skill points than the babau (due to its +4 racial modifier to intelligence). Regarding attacks, the babau has a slightly better bonus to attacks, and deals more damage with its primary attack, gaining an advantage over the ranger when only a standard attack is available. As for full attacks, assuming all attacks of each character hit except for the human ranger's third longsword hit at +3, they'll respectively deal an average of 28.2 for the babau and 27.3 for the human (with critical threats confirmed 50% of the time for each). So unless the enemy has an AC so low that an attack with a -10 penalty has a chance to hit (unlikely at level 12), the babau still wins.

Saves are one of the only things that's perfectly balanced between both chatacters. The human ranger has an extra 3 feats plus 3 bonus feats when compared to the babau, but those aren't enough to compensate for the differences listed above. Improved Toughness, Weapon Focus, and Open-Minded together would still leave the human with hit points, attack bonuses, and skill points lower than the babau's.

The trickiest part, as always, is with the special abilities. The ranger's +6 bonus to damage against favored enemies is about on par with the babau's sneak attack (7 damage on average), and while sneak attack damage occurs more often , it's not that much stronger than the human's ability. With access to third-level spells, the ranger's magical abilities are also on par with the babau's spell-likes, and the ranger's animal companion, while relatively weak, is also more reliable than the babau's summon. Most of the human's other abilities, however (endurance, woodland stride, swift tracker, wild empathy) are very situational and more flavor than real abilties. The exception is evasion. With a good relfelx save, it's likely to save the human from more damage than the babau's resistance to acid, cold, and fire put together. Then the babau gains immunity to poison and electricity, and damage reduction 10 overcome only by good or cold iron, not weapon types enemies tend to carrry around, unlike magic or slashing. Overall, the babau wins again.

What does this all mean? Simply that a +4 level adjustment (7 HD + 1 ranger level + 4 LA = ECL 12) is not enough for this monstrous race. With one additional level, the ranger nearly ties with the babau in terms of hp and attack bonus, but still falls behind in terms of AC, skill points, damage output, and special resistances.

At level 14, however, the human ranger will have the same amount of hp and attack bonus as the babau without requiring any feats, will be only 9 skill points behind, and will finally have better average saves than the babau. At that point, he also has access to 4th-level ranger spells. While I'd still say the 1st-level babau ranger is stronger than a 14th-level human ranger, that's when the human starts to beat the babau on some aspects and where some may start arguing about who's the best character.

Therefore, I'd set the babau's LA at no less than +6, making a babau with one class level the equivalent of a 14th-level character.
imakuni67
10-18-07, 09:58 PM Thanks for writing out that analysis! I was thinking around +6 LA too, maybe 7. Their summoning ability isn't actually too powerful because you have to bargain with them unlike a normal summon monster spell. There spell like abilities are pretty powerful though.
Borris
10-18-07, 10:33 PM I'd say the spell-like abilities are more useful than powerful. Everyone and his cousin has darkness as a spell-like ability. And while see invisibility and dispel magic can be real game savers in the right situtation, they're nothing more than 3rd-level spells. Greater teleport is awesome, of course, but since you can only carry yourself and 50 lbs of objects, you won't be able to travel with the rest of the party, and even by yourself, you'll have to be really careful to keep your gear under 50 lbs.

As for the summon ability, nothing in the rules indicates that you have to bargain with the summoned creature, though it might not do exactly as you want during a battle, and you may owe the other babau if you ever meet him somewhere else. But the biggest downside is that it's a 1/day ability with only a 40% chance of success. And by 13th-level, sumonning a CR 6 monster isn't really impressive. A wizard, cleric, or druid can do much better with a 6th-level summon spell that works 100% of the time.
imakuni67
10-18-07, 10:57 PM Summon
A creature with the summon ability can summon specific other creatures of its kind much as though casting a summon monster spell, but it usually has only a limited chance of success (as specified in the creature’s entry). Roll d%: On a failure, no creature answers the summons. Summoned creatures automatically return whence they came after 1 hour. A creature that has just been summoned cannot use its own summon ability for 1 hour. Most creatures with the ability to summon do not use it lightly, since it leaves them beholden to the summoned creature. In general, they use it only when necessary to save their own lives. An appropriate spell level is given for each summoning ability for purposes of Concentration checks and attempts to dispel the summoned creature. No experience points are awarded for summoned monsters.
>.<

Darn you Wizards and your much as thoughs! Just come out and say things right! Is it like summon monster where they do what you want, or is it like planar ally!?
Count Arioch the 28th
10-19-07, 12:23 AM I never liked that bit of test, that says the summoner is beholden to the summoned creature.

I rule that the reason that demons and evils are able to summon more of their kind is because they are subordinate to the summoner. (A demon's already beat the snot out of the superior, the devil is superior due to how hierarchy works)

In my game, demons and devils summon early, and summon often.
sigma999
10-19-07, 12:28 AM Count, can't ya just eye it up?
Compare to a Wizard of same level; if the Wizard could become one or summon one, that's the level at which a player may use Babau.
zeratulcraft
10-19-07, 02:22 AM Being one all day, and being one for a handful of rounds in a day are very different.
sigma999
10-19-07, 07:53 AM Lesser Planar Binding/Ally is hardly a few rounds.
zeratulcraft
10-19-07, 07:57 AM Yes and that has the drawback of time and cost.
RobbyPants
10-19-07, 10:14 AM Count, can't ya just eye it up?
Compare to a Wizard of same level; if the Wizard could become one or summon one, that's the level at which a player may use Babau.
I don't think that comparing a babau wizard to a human wizard of the same estimated ECL is a good acid test. The babau will lose caster levels both for the 7 RHD as well as whatever the LA is estimated at. I think you're hard pressed to find a monster that gets such awesome abilities as to balance out the loss of more than ten caster levels.

When assigning LA to a monster, you have to look at what it does well, not just an average case, or the class that you want to use.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
imakuni67 10-18-07, 01:51 PM	Anyone have babau's LA? I'd like to make a babau wizard/sorcerer build to take arcane trickster, as babau have natural sneak attack +2d6 :P
Wight_Chocolate 10-18-07, 01:57 PM	The SRD simply gives their level adjustment as "-". You'll probably have to get a copy of Savage Species and work it out based on the thing's abilities.
imakuni67 10-18-07, 02:04 PM	Does anyone other than me hate Wizards tendency to nerf/restrict players from wanting to play evil characters. They give LA's for all the most of the archon and angels on the SRD, but the majority of the devils and demons aren't given. Heck, they even give you a section on Hound Archons as PC's! grumble grumble
Wight_Chocolate 10-18-07, 02:26 PM	There are only three types of archon in the SRD and two of them are given level adjustments, so yes, I suppose "most" of them have them. Only one angel has a level adjustment, and that's the Astral Deva. In terms of other celestials, only the Bralani Eladrin is given a level adjustment, bringing the total up to 4. In contrast, out of devils and demons, the Barbazu, Kyton, Erinyes, Dretch, Hezrou, Succubus and Vrock all have given LAs, for a total of 7. I don't think I see what you're complaining about.
Darth Sephiroth 10-18-07, 04:05 PM	For the Babau I'd guess it just uses it's racial HD so it's a 7th level character.
Wight_Chocolate 10-18-07, 04:10 PM	For the Babau I'd guess it just uses it's racial HD so it's a 7th level character. Unfortunately, that doesn't work. For races like this, they start with the an appropriate number of levels in Outsider or Monstrous Humanoid or whatever. Then you apply the level adjustment, which is based on how powerful the creature is, and then you start adding class levels. Just going by hit dice results, in most cases, in a character that has a lower effective level than they should have, and thus one that is overpowered.
SunTzuWarmaster 10-18-07, 06:48 PM	I would play it as a LA +7 (including 7 racial hit dice) without the Summon Babau ability, and a 1-3x/day Greater Teleport (scaled up to "at will" at 10th level or so). and a toned down BAB of +6 or +5. I think that the above array of abilities is something that a character of this level should be able to do (the slime is just flavor at this level anyways).
Borris 10-18-07, 08:23 PM	Let's acid test the babau to see what its LA should be. Now, one might be tempted to compare it to a rogue, what with its high number of skills and sneak attack, but with its high stenght and full BAB, I'd rather compare it to the game's other stealthy fighter: namely the ranger. Let's see what we have here. I gave each character the elite array given in the DMG for a ranger. For the sake of comparison, I also gave the human ranger weapons appropriate to his level, although both the human and babau should normally have gear suited to their ECL. Babau Ranger 1 HD 7d8+42 + 1d8+6 (87 hp) Armor Class 21 Attack 2 claws +15 melee (1d6+7) and bite +10 melee (1d6+3) Saves Fort +11, Ref +10, Will +6 Abilities Str 24, Dex 17, Con 23, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 14 Skill Points 128 Feats 3 (plus Track) Other Sneak attack +2d6, spell-like abilities, damage reduction 10/cold iron or good, immunity to electricity and poison, protective slime, resistance to acid 10, cold 10, and fire 10, spell resistance 14, telepathy 100 ft. Human Ranger 12 HD 12d8+24 (73 hp) Armor Class 14 Attack +1 longsword +13/+8/+3 (1d8+3) and +1 short sword +13/+8 (1d6+2) Saves Fort +10, Ref +12, Will +5 Abilities Str 14, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8 Skill Points 105 Feats 6 (plus Track, Endurance, Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting) Other Favored enemy, animal companion, spells, woodland stride, swift tracker, evasion At this level, the human ranger still has fewer hit points than the babau, and a much lower AC (he could wear a chain shirt, but so could the babau). Despite the human bonus and more hit dice, the ranger still has less skill points than the babau (due to its +4 racial modifier to intelligence). Regarding attacks, the babau has a slightly better bonus to attacks, and deals more damage with its primary attack, gaining an advantage over the ranger when only a standard attack is available. As for full attacks, assuming all attacks of each character hit except for the human ranger's third longsword hit at +3, they'll respectively deal an average of 28.2 for the babau and 27.3 for the human (with critical threats confirmed 50% of the time for each). So unless the enemy has an AC so low that an attack with a -10 penalty has a chance to hit (unlikely at level 12), the babau still wins. Saves are one of the only things that's perfectly balanced between both chatacters. The human ranger has an extra 3 feats plus 3 bonus feats when compared to the babau, but those aren't enough to compensate for the differences listed above. Improved Toughness, Weapon Focus, and Open-Minded together would still leave the human with hit points, attack bonuses, and skill points lower than the babau's. The trickiest part, as always, is with the special abilities. The ranger's +6 bonus to damage against favored enemies is about on par with the babau's sneak attack (7 damage on average), and while sneak attack damage occurs more often , it's not that much stronger than the human's ability. With access to third-level spells, the ranger's magical abilities are also on par with the babau's spell-likes, and the ranger's animal companion, while relatively weak, is also more reliable than the babau's summon. Most of the human's other abilities, however (endurance, woodland stride, swift tracker, wild empathy) are very situational and more flavor than real abilties. The exception is evasion. With a good relfelx save, it's likely to save the human from more damage than the babau's resistance to acid, cold, and fire put together. Then the babau gains immunity to poison and electricity, and damage reduction 10 overcome only by good or cold iron, not weapon types enemies tend to carrry around, unlike magic or slashing. Overall, the babau wins again. What does this all mean? Simply that a +4 level adjustment (7 HD + 1 ranger level + 4 LA = ECL 12) is not enough for this monstrous race. With one additional level, the ranger nearly ties with the babau in terms of hp and attack bonus, but still falls behind in terms of AC, skill points, damage output, and special resistances. At level 14, however, the human ranger will have the same amount of hp and attack bonus as the babau without requiring any feats, will be only 9 skill points behind, and will finally have better average saves than the babau. At that point, he also has access to 4th-level ranger spells. While I'd still say the 1st-level babau ranger is stronger than a 14th-level human ranger, that's when the human starts to beat the babau on some aspects and where some may start arguing about who's the best character. Therefore, I'd set the babau's LA at no less than +6, making a babau with one class level the equivalent of a 14th-level character.
imakuni67 10-18-07, 09:58 PM	Thanks for writing out that analysis! I was thinking around +6 LA too, maybe 7. Their summoning ability isn't actually too powerful because you have to bargain with them unlike a normal summon monster spell. There spell like abilities are pretty powerful though.
Borris 10-18-07, 10:33 PM	I'd say the spell-like abilities are more useful than powerful. Everyone and his cousin has darkness as a spell-like ability. And while see invisibility and dispel magic can be real game savers in the right situtation, they're nothing more than 3rd-level spells. Greater teleport is awesome, of course, but since you can only carry yourself and 50 lbs of objects, you won't be able to travel with the rest of the party, and even by yourself, you'll have to be really careful to keep your gear under 50 lbs. As for the summon ability, nothing in the rules indicates that you have to bargain with the summoned creature, though it might not do exactly as you want during a battle, and you may owe the other babau if you ever meet him somewhere else. But the biggest downside is that it's a 1/day ability with only a 40% chance of success. And by 13th-level, sumonning a CR 6 monster isn't really impressive. A wizard, cleric, or druid can do much better with a 6th-level summon spell that works 100% of the time.
imakuni67 10-18-07, 10:57 PM	Summon A creature with the summon ability can summon specific other creatures of its kind much as though casting a summon monster spell, but it usually has only a limited chance of success (as specified in the creature’s entry). Roll d%: On a failure, no creature answers the summons. Summoned creatures automatically return whence they came after 1 hour. A creature that has just been summoned cannot use its own summon ability for 1 hour. Most creatures with the ability to summon do not use it lightly, since it leaves them beholden to the summoned creature. In general, they use it only when necessary to save their own lives. An appropriate spell level is given for each summoning ability for purposes of Concentration checks and attempts to dispel the summoned creature. No experience points are awarded for summoned monsters. >.< Darn you Wizards and your much as thoughs! Just come out and say things right! Is it like summon monster where they do what you want, or is it like planar ally!?
Count Arioch the 28th 10-19-07, 12:23 AM	I never liked that bit of test, that says the summoner is beholden to the summoned creature. I rule that the reason that demons and evils are able to summon more of their kind is because they are subordinate to the summoner. (A demon's already beat the snot out of the superior, the devil is superior due to how hierarchy works) In my game, demons and devils summon early, and summon often.
sigma999 10-19-07, 12:28 AM	Count, can't ya just eye it up? Compare to a Wizard of same level; if the Wizard could become one or summon one, that's the level at which a player may use Babau.
zeratulcraft 10-19-07, 02:22 AM	Being one all day, and being one for a handful of rounds in a day are very different.
sigma999 10-19-07, 07:53 AM	Lesser Planar Binding/Ally is hardly a few rounds.
zeratulcraft 10-19-07, 07:57 AM	Yes and that has the drawback of time and cost.
RobbyPants 10-19-07, 10:14 AM	Count, can't ya just eye it up? Compare to a Wizard of same level; if the Wizard could become one or summon one, that's the level at which a player may use Babau. I don't think that comparing a babau wizard to a human wizard of the same estimated ECL is a good acid test. The babau will lose caster levels both for the 7 RHD as well as whatever the LA is estimated at. I think you're hard pressed to find a monster that gets such awesome abilities as to balance out the loss of more than ten caster levels. When assigning LA to a monster, you have to look at what it does well, not just an average case, or the class that you want to use.