Bad Halflings [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bad Halflings [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
PigFiend
02-14-08, 08:46 PM http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd /drdd/20080208a
So, a new fluffy article about halflings! I'm not sure I like that they're bigger in 4th. I liked the 3rd edition thematic and aesthetic changes from hobbits.

But their crunch has always stunk. =/
The worst offenders are their small weapon damage and 20' speed. Just about everything else is (poor) compensation for their drawbacks.

They're penalized twice in martial combat, with -2 str AND lesser weaponry. I like to run with 3.0 or 3.5 weapon size rules. It boggles my mind how even halfling loving PCs cannot suspend their disbelief that a halfling can wield a medium short sword without penalty. A monk can punch as damagingly as that short sword, and a druid can call lightning from the sky, but a medium sized hilt in a small hand is too far? Why aren't there small arrows and bolts? Small alchemist's fires and holy waters? (Or could it be possible that a flask of acid IS a medium weapon, causing small creatures to have -2 to attack with it?)
The other problem - perhaps a more significant one - is for the DM giving out treasure. How ridiculous is it to dole out token small sized equipment? It's also very limiting for how PCs can distribute treasure.
+1 to attack with thrown weapons or slings is one of those poor compensations. The strength penalty imposes -1 damage with those weapons, and let's not forget that it's going to be a small dart or small sling, so the meaning will be negligible, only sometimes more damaging than a cat scratch. (Oh yeah. I forgot about the +1 size bonus to attack with that superior cat scratch.)

So how about the skill bonuses? +2 to climb and jump are offset by -1 from strength. Worse, both are rendered impractical by their 20' speed. As a full action, a halfling can climb 10'! Tactically, it's like wasting your turn, and for a long climb, they end up needing to make more checks than a 30' speedster. Jump is even worse. Often forgotten in play, creatures with 20' speed get -6 to their jump checks! So overall, a halfling is looking at -5 as compared to a human!

Perhaps the worst sin of all is that the halfling is groomed to be the quintessential rogue yet is so bad at it. Sneak attack is an okay equalizer for having bad weapon damage, but tumbling to get a flank is vexing when half your speed is 10'. That means that your halfling rogue has to make a check to move 5' more than anyone can do without fear of an AoO.
Halflings are very sneaky if you factor their +2 dex, racial bonus to move silently, and size bonus to hide. However, almost every traditional environment in D&D is pitch black. Halflings are without darkvision. How disheartening for the player of the halfling rogue when his character never gets to sneak anywhere! The half-orc monk and dwarven ranger end up being the party scouts rather than the impotent halfling rogue.

At 20' speed, they can't escape from anything in a foot race. Being small not only makes their damage terrible, but makes them super susceptible to enemies that grapple(and there are more than a few in 3rd edition).
I'm not a halfling hater. Like I said, I really like their fluffy 3rd edition changes. That's why I'm so hopelessly frustrated when I see the halfling player having a less satisfying game because they have almost no impact in combat and don't really have other opportunities to shine. Even in the D&D scenario of this year and the Dungeon Delves I played last year, the halfling characters were starkly the worst.

My instincts are that 4th edition halflings will remain acceptable casters, surprisingly inferior sneaky types, and inviable warriors. Prove me wrong, Wizards! Make the halfling an exciting choice!
war_thog
02-16-08, 08:16 PM I personally love halflings.

Small size is awesome.
They make great mages with free AC and better hit chances with those rays.

Also I have no idea what DnD world you play in that has pitch black environments everywhere but well, Ive been playing a sneaky halfling acrobat for 2 years now and you do get to use your skills regularly.
Any situation that isnt a pitch black dungeon works for you. And anything down there you cant hide from anyway as it will also have darkvision, so the dwarf and half orc are redundant too.

Small size dmg really isnt that much less. A longsword deals 0-2 less. 1-3 when factoring str. Same atk bonus. More if youre finessing a wep.

Start busting out power attacks and magical enhancements and 1-3 dmg really isnt that much.

Take a dagger and the difference is 1-2. Whoopee!

Really non significant dmg amounts above lvl 1.

I'm not sure what campaign the halfling has no impact in combat but well.... built your char well then.

There are 2 halflings in my party, me and an arcane trickster and we always have an impact.
Ive done my fair share of work and always had a good time.

The token small size equipment thing is only relevant to swords and armours anyway. Rings and **** resize to wearers.
So just take your share of treasure in gold and buy your own stuff.
It all works. And isnt nearly as terrible a playing experience as youre suggesting.
Sakaki22
02-16-08, 08:50 PM I hate the actual size of 3.5 Halflings.

Halfling random height begins at 2'10" for male, and reaches as high as 3'4", and always weigh thirty pounds?

Okay. My four month old son is 2'0" and 15 pounds. If I sat my infant on his can of formula, put a small bottle on his head, and put him in his carseat with a dice set, a Player's Handbook, and Complete Adventurer, he'd qualify as a Halfling Rogue in height, weight, and class and feat selection.
Cartigan
02-16-08, 10:01 PM Any situation that isnt a pitch black dungeon works for you. And anything down there you cant hide from anyway as it will also have darkvision, so the dwarf and half orc are redundant too.
Halflings don't even have low-light vision.
PigFiend
02-17-08, 04:02 PM -war_thog

Yeah, the size bonuses are nice for casters, but I did note that that's the one style of build where the halfling does okay.

How much of non-social situation D&D play isn't in the dark? If you were to grab a WotC scenario or fantastic location, chances are most of the playtime will be done in the dark, especially anywhere you'd need to have scouted.

-sakaki22

My friends weren't hot about halfling toddler-sized shortness either. I like that it's a sharp visual difference from humans (and dwarves), and you could really see it in 3rd artwork of an adventuring party that included a halfling.
At -2 str, they're actually amazingly strong for their size, kinda ropey like big chimpanzees. It might be a bit backhanded, but combatively don't think of a human toddler but rather think of a brutish ape.
Also along that line, thinking of 3.0 weapon size rules, if you think of most halflings (and gnomes, goblins, and kobolds for that matter) as really really strong little guys, then the medium-sized handle is no big deal.
calronmoonflower
02-17-08, 04:57 PM One thing to note is that the small size gives them befits on Move Silently and Hide checks.
Shadowfax7
02-18-08, 01:16 PM befits on Move Silently
That would indeed be nice, but unfortunately no. Small size only gives benefits on Hide.
Old_School_Overlord
02-20-08, 06:42 PM I recently kicked my groups ass with a Halfling sword-sage. They'll remember Jack Twig, the emaciated halfling psycho for a good long time!

I admit though, their not optimisers by any stretch of the imagination.
Vintar
02-20-08, 06:57 PM One thing you all seem to forget is their +1 bonus on all saves. Sure the dwarf's +2 vs. magic is better - but the dwarf is borderline broken. And an easy fix to their movement speed - boots of striding/springing.

While halflings do average 2 less damage with weapons (except only 1.5 with dagger) once they have finesse, they also have a +2 to hit. And make that a +3 with thrown weapons. Not to mention the +2 to AC.
PigFiend
02-21-08, 11:04 PM I like their +1 bonus to saves and their additional +2 versus fear. They're positives for the halfling. Mind you, I don't think they characterize the halfling in most anyone's minds. Even in an in-character sense, I don't think a halfling's survivability would be much more than a myth in any NPCs mindset. +1 versus the wildness of a d20 roll would only be discovered by some torturous testing on a broad sample of various races (by perhaps an evil sage? That'd be a cool scenario).

I don't subscribe to the notion that a drawback is okay because it can be evened out by a magic item. I mean, besides the boots of striding and springing, you could give a halfling items that also give him +2 strength, medium size (at his option), and darkvision. Magic items are darned expensive, even when you level into the 'sweet spot'.
If you make an 8th level character in the typical fashion, he has 9,400 gp and can spend no more than half of that on any one item. Boots of striding and springing cost 5,500 gp!
illithid_guy
03-06-08, 04:50 PM Halflings are fine if you play them right,I like their +2 size
bonus to armor class, by the way, Cartigan, were did
you get that avatar?
Screams
03-07-08, 02:09 AM Strongheart Halfling a good way to go. yu gain that extra feat if you like that sort of thing over the saves
ciaran
03-08-08, 02:21 AM I have to admit... My opinion on fear saves has altered quite a bit over the years. Who here has scoffed at feats that involved bonuses to fear saves? I have. Who here has had an optimal charcter rendered usless by a failed fear save? Me again. +2 is not the world. +2 vs fear saves will not alter a great deal. but you may one day be glad you had it. One combat altering bonus will change your mind forever.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
PigFiend 02-14-08, 08:46 PM	http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd /drdd/20080208a So, a new fluffy article about halflings! I'm not sure I like that they're bigger in 4th. I liked the 3rd edition thematic and aesthetic changes from hobbits. But their crunch has always stunk. =/ The worst offenders are their small weapon damage and 20' speed. Just about everything else is (poor) compensation for their drawbacks. They're penalized twice in martial combat, with -2 str AND lesser weaponry. I like to run with 3.0 or 3.5 weapon size rules. It boggles my mind how even halfling loving PCs cannot suspend their disbelief that a halfling can wield a medium short sword without penalty. A monk can punch as damagingly as that short sword, and a druid can call lightning from the sky, but a medium sized hilt in a small hand is too far? Why aren't there small arrows and bolts? Small alchemist's fires and holy waters? (Or could it be possible that a flask of acid IS a medium weapon, causing small creatures to have -2 to attack with it?) The other problem - perhaps a more significant one - is for the DM giving out treasure. How ridiculous is it to dole out token small sized equipment? It's also very limiting for how PCs can distribute treasure. +1 to attack with thrown weapons or slings is one of those poor compensations. The strength penalty imposes -1 damage with those weapons, and let's not forget that it's going to be a small dart or small sling, so the meaning will be negligible, only sometimes more damaging than a cat scratch. (Oh yeah. I forgot about the +1 size bonus to attack with that superior cat scratch.) So how about the skill bonuses? +2 to climb and jump are offset by -1 from strength. Worse, both are rendered impractical by their 20' speed. As a full action, a halfling can climb 10'! Tactically, it's like wasting your turn, and for a long climb, they end up needing to make more checks than a 30' speedster. Jump is even worse. Often forgotten in play, creatures with 20' speed get -6 to their jump checks! So overall, a halfling is looking at -5 as compared to a human! Perhaps the worst sin of all is that the halfling is groomed to be the quintessential rogue yet is so bad at it. Sneak attack is an okay equalizer for having bad weapon damage, but tumbling to get a flank is vexing when half your speed is 10'. That means that your halfling rogue has to make a check to move 5' more than anyone can do without fear of an AoO. Halflings are very sneaky if you factor their +2 dex, racial bonus to move silently, and size bonus to hide. However, almost every traditional environment in D&D is pitch black. Halflings are without darkvision. How disheartening for the player of the halfling rogue when his character never gets to sneak anywhere! The half-orc monk and dwarven ranger end up being the party scouts rather than the impotent halfling rogue. At 20' speed, they can't escape from anything in a foot race. Being small not only makes their damage terrible, but makes them super susceptible to enemies that grapple(and there are more than a few in 3rd edition). I'm not a halfling hater. Like I said, I really like their fluffy 3rd edition changes. That's why I'm so hopelessly frustrated when I see the halfling player having a less satisfying game because they have almost no impact in combat and don't really have other opportunities to shine. Even in the D&D scenario of this year and the Dungeon Delves I played last year, the halfling characters were starkly the worst. My instincts are that 4th edition halflings will remain acceptable casters, surprisingly inferior sneaky types, and inviable warriors. Prove me wrong, Wizards! Make the halfling an exciting choice!
war_thog 02-16-08, 08:16 PM	I personally love halflings. Small size is awesome. They make great mages with free AC and better hit chances with those rays. Also I have no idea what DnD world you play in that has pitch black environments everywhere but well, Ive been playing a sneaky halfling acrobat for 2 years now and you do get to use your skills regularly. Any situation that isnt a pitch black dungeon works for you. And anything down there you cant hide from anyway as it will also have darkvision, so the dwarf and half orc are redundant too. Small size dmg really isnt that much less. A longsword deals 0-2 less. 1-3 when factoring str. Same atk bonus. More if youre finessing a wep. Start busting out power attacks and magical enhancements and 1-3 dmg really isnt that much. Take a dagger and the difference is 1-2. Whoopee! Really non significant dmg amounts above lvl 1. I'm not sure what campaign the halfling has no impact in combat but well.... built your char well then. There are 2 halflings in my party, me and an arcane trickster and we always have an impact. Ive done my fair share of work and always had a good time. The token small size equipment thing is only relevant to swords and armours anyway. Rings and **** resize to wearers. So just take your share of treasure in gold and buy your own stuff. It all works. And isnt nearly as terrible a playing experience as youre suggesting.
Sakaki22 02-16-08, 08:50 PM	I hate the actual size of 3.5 Halflings. Halfling random height begins at 2'10" for male, and reaches as high as 3'4", and always weigh thirty pounds? Okay. My four month old son is 2'0" and 15 pounds. If I sat my infant on his can of formula, put a small bottle on his head, and put him in his carseat with a dice set, a Player's Handbook, and Complete Adventurer, he'd qualify as a Halfling Rogue in height, weight, and class and feat selection.
Cartigan 02-16-08, 10:01 PM	Any situation that isnt a pitch black dungeon works for you. And anything down there you cant hide from anyway as it will also have darkvision, so the dwarf and half orc are redundant too. Halflings don't even have low-light vision.
PigFiend 02-17-08, 04:02 PM	-war_thog Yeah, the size bonuses are nice for casters, but I did note that that's the one style of build where the halfling does okay. How much of non-social situation D&D play isn't in the dark? If you were to grab a WotC scenario or fantastic location, chances are most of the playtime will be done in the dark, especially anywhere you'd need to have scouted. -sakaki22 My friends weren't hot about halfling toddler-sized shortness either. I like that it's a sharp visual difference from humans (and dwarves), and you could really see it in 3rd artwork of an adventuring party that included a halfling. At -2 str, they're actually amazingly strong for their size, kinda ropey like big chimpanzees. It might be a bit backhanded, but combatively don't think of a human toddler but rather think of a brutish ape. Also along that line, thinking of 3.0 weapon size rules, if you think of most halflings (and gnomes, goblins, and kobolds for that matter) as really really strong little guys, then the medium-sized handle is no big deal.
calronmoonflower 02-17-08, 04:57 PM	One thing to note is that the small size gives them befits on Move Silently and Hide checks.
Shadowfax7 02-18-08, 01:16 PM	befits on Move Silently That would indeed be nice, but unfortunately no. Small size only gives benefits on Hide.
Old_School_Overlord 02-20-08, 06:42 PM	I recently kicked my groups ass with a Halfling sword-sage. They'll remember Jack Twig, the emaciated halfling psycho for a good long time! I admit though, their not optimisers by any stretch of the imagination.
Vintar 02-20-08, 06:57 PM	One thing you all seem to forget is their +1 bonus on all saves. Sure the dwarf's +2 vs. magic is better - but the dwarf is borderline broken. And an easy fix to their movement speed - boots of striding/springing. While halflings do average 2 less damage with weapons (except only 1.5 with dagger) once they have finesse, they also have a +2 to hit. And make that a +3 with thrown weapons. Not to mention the +2 to AC.
PigFiend 02-21-08, 11:04 PM	I like their +1 bonus to saves and their additional +2 versus fear. They're positives for the halfling. Mind you, I don't think they characterize the halfling in most anyone's minds. Even in an in-character sense, I don't think a halfling's survivability would be much more than a myth in any NPCs mindset. +1 versus the wildness of a d20 roll would only be discovered by some torturous testing on a broad sample of various races (by perhaps an evil sage? That'd be a cool scenario). I don't subscribe to the notion that a drawback is okay because it can be evened out by a magic item. I mean, besides the boots of striding and springing, you could give a halfling items that also give him +2 strength, medium size (at his option), and darkvision. Magic items are darned expensive, even when you level into the 'sweet spot'. If you make an 8th level character in the typical fashion, he has 9,400 gp and can spend no more than half of that on any one item. Boots of striding and springing cost 5,500 gp!
illithid_guy 03-06-08, 04:50 PM	Halflings are fine if you play them right,I like their +2 size bonus to armor class, by the way, Cartigan, were did you get that avatar?
Screams 03-07-08, 02:09 AM	Strongheart Halfling a good way to go. yu gain that extra feat if you like that sort of thing over the saves
ciaran 03-08-08, 02:21 AM	I have to admit... My opinion on fear saves has altered quite a bit over the years. Who here has scoffed at feats that involved bonuses to fear saves? I have. Who here has had an optimal charcter rendered usless by a failed fear save? Me again. +2 is not the world. +2 vs fear saves will not alter a great deal. but you may one day be glad you had it. One combat altering bonus will change your mind forever.