Balancing 4 Arms [Archive] - Wizards Community

Balancing 4 Arms [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
DrakoShade
12-29-07, 04:04 PM In a player race, possessing that extra set of arms full-time could be potentially nightmarishly awesome. The problem is, how does one balance such a trait in the creation of said race? How much of an effect would those extra arms really have in the long run, and what would offset it to make the race playable?

Among the potential goodness that could come from having four arms, I've thought of the following features.
Multiweapon Fighting replaces Two-Weapon Fighting.
Potential +2 Racial bonuses to Swim, Climb, and Grapple, any of which could be sacrificed at just about any time one of those checks is required to perform the equivalent of an extra move-action in the same round, as long as it only required one or two arms. (Here's looking at the ability to draw a weapon while grappling with a Dwarf.)
Add an extra Glove/Gauntlet slot, an extra Bracer/Bracelet slot, and two extra Ring slots to the list of wearable magic items. (The equivalent of 4 Epic feats, but we are talking fully functional arms, right?)
Spellcasters could hold onto two extra items, like a shield or that vial of Potion of Cure Serious Wounds, while still performing somatic components and reaching into a pocket for material ones or a focus.
Manacles to hold such a creature would cost twice as much.

I have managed to think of one inherent con to the possession of four arms, however... Where in the world is one going to find a shirt that fits right?

Please bear in mind, I've been awake far too long, and I brainstormed on this while incredibly bored at work. Still, methods for balancing the four arms would be interesting. Flame away.
deathbane
12-29-07, 06:46 PM In a player race, possessing that extra set of arms full-time could be potentially nightmarishly awesome. The problem is, how does one balance such a trait in the creation of said race? How much of an effect would those extra arms really have in the long run, and what would offset it to make the race playable?

Among the potential goodness that could come from having four arms, I've thought of the following features.
Multiweapon Fighting replaces Two-Weapon Fighting.
Potential +2 Racial bonuses to Swim, Climb, and Grapple, any of which could be sacrificed at just about any time one of those checks is required to perform the equivalent of an extra move-action in the same round, as long as it only required one or two arms. (Here's looking at the ability to draw a weapon while grappling with a Dwarf.)
Add an extra Glove/Gauntlet slot, an extra Bracer/Bracelet slot, and two extra Ring slots to the list of wearable magic items. (The equivalent of 4 Epic feats, but we are talking fully functional arms, right?)
Spellcasters could hold onto two extra items, like a shield or that vial of Potion of Cure Serious Wounds, while still performing somatic components and reaching into a pocket for material ones or a focus.
Manacles to hold such a creature would cost twice as much.

I have managed to think of one inherent con to the possession of four arms, however... Where in the world is one going to find a shirt that fits right?

Please bear in mind, I've been awake far too long, and I brainstormed on this while incredibly bored at work. Still, methods for balancing the four arms would be interesting. Flame away.

There is no way to balance the two arms other than give them ridiculously low mental or physical stat modifiers, they have to be casters or fighter-types. That is the only thing I can think of.
Saiyamantis
12-29-07, 08:16 PM Having extra limbs only grants you the ability to hold more items. There are no bonuses to grapple checks, skill use, or magic item slots unless you choose to include them as separate racial traits.

Thri-Kreen are a good example of a playable race with extra limbs. In addition to having four arms, they get multiple psi-like abilities, natural weapons, poison, and a ridiculous Jump bonus for the low low price of two Hit Dice and a +2 level adjustment.
ragoftag
12-30-07, 12:20 AM The way I hit it was to make the extra limbs give bonuses to certain tasks, costing them as if granted otherwise. Most abilities are easily dealt with this way using Yabba's charts. Getting them down to a '0' adjustment becomes a real nightmare.

The main four-armed race in my game was abducted to serve as laborers and are not known for their smarts. Feats are integral to pursuing abilities granted by the extra arms. This may seem stingy, but the race becomes playable without too much effort.
DarkRhystar
12-30-07, 12:56 AM Add an extra Glove/Gauntlet slot, an extra Bracer/Bracelet slot, and two extra Ring slots to the list of wearable magic items. (The equivalent of 4 Epic feats, but we are talking fully functional arms, right?)

This, in particular, is very much not true.

You do not get more magic item slots for having more arms for the same reason that you can only wear 2 magic rings even though you have 10 fingers.
Ziggaraut
12-30-07, 02:09 PM It's impossible to get a four-armed race down to +0, but perhaps +2 might not be out of sight.

1.Scratch the extra magic item slots
2.Give 'em a Str penalty (more arms can mean less muscle in each one)
3. Scratch the swim bonus, the extra arms makes them lose bouyancy
4. Maybe to balance the Strength penalty, give em the ability to negate it by committing twice as many arms to a task (use both arms in sync to punch someone in the face)
You'll need to add some flavor bonuses, but other then that it doesn't seem completely out of sight. Try and think of a culture for these guys, try and make it around that.
Angel Black
01-02-08, 07:48 PM Or ditch the arm and pick up a tail
zook1shoe666
01-02-08, 10:56 PM why not buy some extra arms in the Fiend Folio. 5k each are the Fiendish Long Arms
drunkman
01-03-08, 01:22 PM The only way I can think of is require the multi-armed creatures to have to get two weapon fighting first before you can get the identicle multi-weapon fighting feat, so it takes up higher levels (and your epic feats) to get these feats.

And if that's not enough, make multi-weapon fighting a continuous feat that you take multiple times. Each time you take this feat, it applies to only an extra arm.

So let's say I'm a Thri-Kreen fighter. For my first level feat I have to take two weapon fighting, then my when I take one level of fighter, I have to take multi-weapon fighting once to apply the effect to my third arm, then I have to take multi-weapon fighting once again as my fighter bonus feat to apply the effect to my fourth arm. Then when my BAB is 6, I have to take improved two weapon fighting so I can get improved multi-weapon fighting when my BAB is 9. But that one improved multiweapon fighting feat only applies to my third arm, so one level after that, I must take the same feat again for it to apply to my forth. Then it's the same for greater two weapon fighting. Follow?
drunkman
01-03-08, 02:22 PM So my multi-weapon fighting feat would look something like this

MULTIWEAPON FIGHTING [Monstrous]
A creature with three or more hands can fight with a weapon in one more hand. The creature can make an extra attack each round with that extra weapon (without suffering normal penalties).
Perequisites: Two Weapon Fighting, Dex 15, three or more hands.
Benefit: Penalties for fighting with multiple weapons are reduced to by 6 for one extra off hand (in addition to one off hand from the Two Weapon Fighting feat), but only one extra off hand. For example, a Thri Kreen (a four armed creature) taking this feat, would be able to attack with 3 wapons all at a -2 penalty (assuming his two off hand weapons are light), but if he wields a fourth off-hand weapon, he takes the -10 penalty to that hand and a -4 penalty to those other hands (-8 and -2 if that off hand weapon is light).
Normal: Without this feat, fighting with multiple weapons would give you a -6 penalty in the primary hand and a -10 penalty in the off-hands (treat one hand as a promary hand, and the rest as off hands (see p160 0f the PH for details), or if you had the Two Weapon fighting feat, you'd take a -4 penalty for one primary hand and one off hand and a -10 penalty for the other off hands, or a all penalties of all hands reduced by 2 if all off hand weapons are light.
Special: This feat may be taken multiple times, its effects do not stack. Instead the effect applies to one additional arm. For example, a Thri Kreen who has taken the two weapon fighting feat, and this feat twice can attack with all four hands at the reduced penalties.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DrakoShade 12-29-07, 04:04 PM	In a player race, possessing that extra set of arms full-time could be potentially nightmarishly awesome. The problem is, how does one balance such a trait in the creation of said race? How much of an effect would those extra arms really have in the long run, and what would offset it to make the race playable? Among the potential goodness that could come from having four arms, I've thought of the following features. Multiweapon Fighting replaces Two-Weapon Fighting. Potential +2 Racial bonuses to Swim, Climb, and Grapple, any of which could be sacrificed at just about any time one of those checks is required to perform the equivalent of an extra move-action in the same round, as long as it only required one or two arms. (Here's looking at the ability to draw a weapon while grappling with a Dwarf.) Add an extra Glove/Gauntlet slot, an extra Bracer/Bracelet slot, and two extra Ring slots to the list of wearable magic items. (The equivalent of 4 Epic feats, but we are talking fully functional arms, right?) Spellcasters could hold onto two extra items, like a shield or that vial of Potion of Cure Serious Wounds, while still performing somatic components and reaching into a pocket for material ones or a focus. Manacles to hold such a creature would cost twice as much. I have managed to think of one inherent con to the possession of four arms, however... Where in the world is one going to find a shirt that fits right? Please bear in mind, I've been awake far too long, and I brainstormed on this while incredibly bored at work. Still, methods for balancing the four arms would be interesting. Flame away.
deathbane 12-29-07, 06:46 PM	In a player race, possessing that extra set of arms full-time could be potentially nightmarishly awesome. The problem is, how does one balance such a trait in the creation of said race? How much of an effect would those extra arms really have in the long run, and what would offset it to make the race playable? Among the potential goodness that could come from having four arms, I've thought of the following features. Multiweapon Fighting replaces Two-Weapon Fighting. Potential +2 Racial bonuses to Swim, Climb, and Grapple, any of which could be sacrificed at just about any time one of those checks is required to perform the equivalent of an extra move-action in the same round, as long as it only required one or two arms. (Here's looking at the ability to draw a weapon while grappling with a Dwarf.) Add an extra Glove/Gauntlet slot, an extra Bracer/Bracelet slot, and two extra Ring slots to the list of wearable magic items. (The equivalent of 4 Epic feats, but we are talking fully functional arms, right?) Spellcasters could hold onto two extra items, like a shield or that vial of Potion of Cure Serious Wounds, while still performing somatic components and reaching into a pocket for material ones or a focus. Manacles to hold such a creature would cost twice as much. I have managed to think of one inherent con to the possession of four arms, however... Where in the world is one going to find a shirt that fits right? Please bear in mind, I've been awake far too long, and I brainstormed on this while incredibly bored at work. Still, methods for balancing the four arms would be interesting. Flame away. There is no way to balance the two arms other than give them ridiculously low mental or physical stat modifiers, they have to be casters or fighter-types. That is the only thing I can think of.
Saiyamantis 12-29-07, 08:16 PM	Having extra limbs only grants you the ability to hold more items. There are no bonuses to grapple checks, skill use, or magic item slots unless you choose to include them as separate racial traits. Thri-Kreen are a good example of a playable race with extra limbs. In addition to having four arms, they get multiple psi-like abilities, natural weapons, poison, and a ridiculous Jump bonus for the low low price of two Hit Dice and a +2 level adjustment.
ragoftag 12-30-07, 12:20 AM	The way I hit it was to make the extra limbs give bonuses to certain tasks, costing them as if granted otherwise. Most abilities are easily dealt with this way using Yabba's charts. Getting them down to a '0' adjustment becomes a real nightmare. The main four-armed race in my game was abducted to serve as laborers and are not known for their smarts. Feats are integral to pursuing abilities granted by the extra arms. This may seem stingy, but the race becomes playable without too much effort.
DarkRhystar 12-30-07, 12:56 AM	Add an extra Glove/Gauntlet slot, an extra Bracer/Bracelet slot, and two extra Ring slots to the list of wearable magic items. (The equivalent of 4 Epic feats, but we are talking fully functional arms, right?) This, in particular, is very much not true. You do not get more magic item slots for having more arms for the same reason that you can only wear 2 magic rings even though you have 10 fingers.
Ziggaraut 12-30-07, 02:09 PM	It's impossible to get a four-armed race down to +0, but perhaps +2 might not be out of sight. 1.Scratch the extra magic item slots 2.Give 'em a Str penalty (more arms can mean less muscle in each one) 3. Scratch the swim bonus, the extra arms makes them lose bouyancy 4. Maybe to balance the Strength penalty, give em the ability to negate it by committing twice as many arms to a task (use both arms in sync to punch someone in the face) You'll need to add some flavor bonuses, but other then that it doesn't seem completely out of sight. Try and think of a culture for these guys, try and make it around that.
Angel Black 01-02-08, 07:48 PM	Or ditch the arm and pick up a tail
zook1shoe666 01-02-08, 10:56 PM	why not buy some extra arms in the Fiend Folio. 5k each are the Fiendish Long Arms
drunkman 01-03-08, 01:22 PM	The only way I can think of is require the multi-armed creatures to have to get two weapon fighting first before you can get the identicle multi-weapon fighting feat, so it takes up higher levels (and your epic feats) to get these feats. And if that's not enough, make multi-weapon fighting a continuous feat that you take multiple times. Each time you take this feat, it applies to only an extra arm. So let's say I'm a Thri-Kreen fighter. For my first level feat I have to take two weapon fighting, then my when I take one level of fighter, I have to take multi-weapon fighting once to apply the effect to my third arm, then I have to take multi-weapon fighting once again as my fighter bonus feat to apply the effect to my fourth arm. Then when my BAB is 6, I have to take improved two weapon fighting so I can get improved multi-weapon fighting when my BAB is 9. But that one improved multiweapon fighting feat only applies to my third arm, so one level after that, I must take the same feat again for it to apply to my forth. Then it's the same for greater two weapon fighting. Follow?
drunkman 01-03-08, 02:22 PM	So my multi-weapon fighting feat would look something like this MULTIWEAPON FIGHTING [Monstrous] A creature with three or more hands can fight with a weapon in one more hand. The creature can make an extra attack each round with that extra weapon (without suffering normal penalties). Perequisites: Two Weapon Fighting, Dex 15, three or more hands. Benefit: Penalties for fighting with multiple weapons are reduced to by 6 for one extra off hand (in addition to one off hand from the Two Weapon Fighting feat), but only one extra off hand. For example, a Thri Kreen (a four armed creature) taking this feat, would be able to attack with 3 wapons all at a -2 penalty (assuming his two off hand weapons are light), but if he wields a fourth off-hand weapon, he takes the -10 penalty to that hand and a -4 penalty to those other hands (-8 and -2 if that off hand weapon is light). Normal: Without this feat, fighting with multiple weapons would give you a -6 penalty in the primary hand and a -10 penalty in the off-hands (treat one hand as a promary hand, and the rest as off hands (see p160 0f the PH for details), or if you had the Two Weapon fighting feat, you'd take a -4 penalty for one primary hand and one off hand and a -10 penalty for the other off hands, or a all penalties of all hands reduced by 2 if all off hand weapons are light. Special: This feat may be taken multiple times, its effects do not stack. Instead the effect applies to one additional arm. For example, a Thri Kreen who has taken the two weapon fighting feat, and this feat twice can attack with all four hands at the reduced penalties.