Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tectorman 03-28-08, 12:25 PM	If you want to create a Ring of Telekinesis, you must (have the spell and the Item Creation feat, of course, but also) expend 3000 XP (and the gold). This nets you a 5th-level spell usable at will. 3000 XP is also the cost of buying off a level adjustment of +1. Also, the Raptorans are eventually able to fly uninhibitedly by level 10, and they don't have a level adjustment. What I want to do is create a race of, basically, humans, but who somehow have near-godlike vision. Mechanically, I want to create a race that has True Seeing always active by level 10 for the price of an LA +1. The above two reasons seem like sufficient justification of this. The question is, how would you divide up all of the things True Seeing can do over the course of ten or so levels in order to have a balanced progression?
ArochanoX 03-28-08, 12:53 PM	If you want to play with experience points and magical items, use full item price and divide it by 5 to get the XP cost. Goggles of true seeing (custom magic item) costs: Spell level (5) x Caster level (9) x 2000gp x 2 (duration is minutes) + Material component cost (250gp) x 100gp = 205 000 gp. Divided by 5 = 41 000 exp. Compared to continuous fly spell: Spell level (3) x Caster level (5) x 2000gp x 2 (duration is minutes) = 60 000 gp Divided by 5 = 12 000 exp. At 10th level a character has 45 000 exp. A raptoran's flight costs 26,7% of his total exp. If we want to use the same percentage on true seeing, the race should have 153 750 exp (18th level character has 153 000 exp). So your true seeing fellow should be (by this system) at 18th level when he gains the continuous true seeing. For no LA. For LA +1 I don't know.
Tectorman 03-31-08, 12:28 PM	That wasn't what I was asking for. What I meant was: At first level, the race would get "see through normal and magical darkness" and a caveat saying that in an AMF, they'd still get low-light and darkvision. Then as the levels go up, add "see exact locations of creatures and objects under blur and displacement", "see invisible and ethereal creatures and objects", "see through illusions", etc. until by level 10, the race gets everything True Seeing would normally grant. My question was, how would you write out the progression?
ArochanoX 03-31-08, 12:49 PM	That wasn't what I was asking for. I know. I said why it doesn't work the way you want it to work. To divide it over the 10 levels, use a 3rd level spell that has a casting time of 1min/level. For example clairvoyance PHB 209 would be great. To see everything (visible) that is within 600ft of you. See invisble is a 2nd level spell so (by the logic presented in my previous post) it could be gained permanently at level 5 and 6. Low-light vision is a 1st level spell (and as by above logic) and it's attainable between levels 1 and 2. Darkvision is a 2nd level spell (and as by above logic) and it's attainable at level 5. Though darkvision and see invisibility can both be made permanent at the cost of 1000 xp (+ the spellcasting, roughly 70) then the permanent see invisibility and darkvision were attainable at level 3.
Tectorman 03-31-08, 01:03 PM	Okay, let me be more specific. I'm not looking for justification of the logic I used to come up with this idea. I already justified it to myself using that reasoning (skewed or otherwise). So I guess I'm asking for the least broken/unbalanced progression. Or, if you can think of anything to add as a detriment, I'd take that, too. For instance, as a background, I was thinking a group of humans who found a godly eye (not Vecna's, that's already an artifact; maybe Gruumsh's) and somehow became a race of humans but with awesome vision. Unfortunately, they also have to deal with the curse imposed on them by the angry god. So if you think that there's no way to balance TS over 10 levels (and it doesn't even have to be by 10th level, I'm fine with it finishing at 15th), what about a drawback (and what kind)? And if anyone's reading this and thinking "Psht. Another Neiji Hyuga from Naruto. I needn't bother.", know this: I came up with this idea before I'd ever heard of Naruto.
ArochanoX 03-31-08, 01:31 PM	Level - Effect 1 - Low-light vision 2 - Darkvision 30ft 3 - Darkvision 60ft 4 - See invisibility 5 - See even in magical darkness (not deeper darkness) 6 - Clairvoyance (100ft, must have line of effect to the target area) 7 - Darkvision 90ft, Clairvoyance 200ft 8 - Deeper Darkvision (SC 62), Clairvoyance 300ft 9 - Discern Shapechanger (SC 66), Clairvoyance 400ft 10 - Clairvoyance (600ft, must not have line of effect) 11 - See through lvl 1 illusions 12 - See through lvl 2 illusions 13 - See through lvl 3 illusions 14 - See through lvl 4 illusions 15 - See through lvl 5 illusions 16 - See through lvl 6 illusions 17 - See into ethereal plane 18 - True seeing 19 - 20 - End result: You see with deeper darkvision, low-light vision, see invisible and discern shapechanger from any point within 600ft from you that you can describe from your position. And you can truesee everything within 120 ft of you.
Tectorman 03-31-08, 04:08 PM	I think we're on two different wavelengths here. According to that progression you suggested, if I have Low-Light Vision at level 2 (remember I'm beginning with LA +1) and I have the promise of more abilities down the road, then that's balanced. Dwarves (LA +0) start off with Darkvision and a bunch of other abilities. Elves (LA +0) start off with Low-Light Vision and a bunch of other abilities. Catfolk (LA +1) start off with Low-Light Vision and a good bit of other abilities and they're considered to be on the low side of LA +1. And Devils start off (well, if you use a Monster Class Progression: see Savage Species) with the ability normally in all darkness. So I'm honestly confused why the sum total of True Seeing, for the price of a full +1 to level adjustment, still takes 18 levels to balance out.
ReaderOfPosts 03-31-08, 04:52 PM	I would start with lowlight vision, darkvision 60ft, and a +4 racial bonus on Spot checks and saving throws against illusions. At 3rd level I'd give the ability to see through magical darkness. At 6th level I'd give See Invisibility. At 10th level, I'd give true seeing (Alternatively, I might give True Seeing with the caveat of a range of 10 ft/ Character Level: allowing further scaling). I'd also invent the magical item "Invisible eversmoking bottle" As per eversmoking bottle, except the smoke is invisible. Consider it the other races gift to this one.
ArochanoX 04-01-08, 01:20 AM	So I'm honestly confused why the sum total of True Seeing, for the price of a full +1 to level adjustment, still takes 18 levels to balance out. Because it's a powerful spell whose power is "unlimited" as it can see through ANY magical illusion and other magical deception regardless of spell level or caster level. Every single shapechanger can't use deception against the creature who wields such a power. Not to mention that those trueseeing eyes make him immune to all visible illusions. True seeing is a powerful spell to have always on. That's why in the DMG there isn't any magic items that grant continuous true seeing. And not to mention that goggles of true seeing cost 1/3 of 20th level character's starting gp. Flight (lvl 3 spell without material component) is nothing compared to true seeing. Half Celestial (and Half Fiend) are LA +4 templates that grant spells. The LA doesn't come solely from the SLA's, but also from ability modifiers so the LA (for just the spells) should be a little lower. Half Celestial gains a lvl 5 spell (dispel evil) at HD 9 (ECL 13). And it's usable 1/day. If we convert all the remaining spells to a lvl 5 spells, the half celestial could use it 8 times a day. But because a lvl 9 spell slot is more valuable than a lvl 5 spell slot, let us assume (by Arcana Unearthed's system) that 1 lvl 6 spell is equal to 2 lvl 5 spells and so forth. The we would gain a lvl 5 spell 57 times a day (note that many spells have valuable material components that aren't needed as a SLA) by HD 19 (ECL 23). That's why I really don't like giving a continuous lvl 5 spell by lvl 10 to a LA +1 character. I don't know the exact level to give a continuous lvl 5 spell on a LA +1 race, but it's definetely higher than 13 (because of the half celestial) and less than 18 (gp cost reasoning). The question is, how would you divide up all of the things True Seeing can do I think ReaderOfPosts and I had almost the same progressions, and a very good base. No matter the levels, give the abilities by spell levels or power levels: low-light vision, darkvision (that enhances through time to 120 ft), see in magical darkness, see invisibility (limited to 120ft), discern shapechanger (120ft). The other abilities of true seeing are: see through all illusions and see to ethereal plane. ReaderOfPosts had a good idea of a saving throw bonus against (visible) illusions. Build your own progression based on that and which suits you. We (board members generally) can then say you give this and that ability too soon and that ability too late and then you can adjust it. The end result (hopefully) is a balanced LA +1 race (as you wished). And BTW: If you want to create goggles of true seeing, you must (have the spell and the Item Creation feat, of course, but also) expend 8200 XP (and the gold). This nets you a true seeing usable continuously. Buying off LA of +2 to +1 costs 7000 XP, and later from LA +1 to LA 0 costs 9000 XP more.
ciaran 04-01-08, 05:30 PM	Try True Seeing 1 round/HD per day. Its beefy, but could fit into a LA +0 race.
Xiuhcoatl 04-01-08, 07:26 PM	And if anyone's reading this and thinking "Psht. Another Neiji Hyuga from Naruto. I needn't bother.", know this: I came up with this idea before I'd ever heard of Naruto. Heh, I was just going to ask "Sharingan?" because ... The Sharingan has some tie to a 'dark god' (the Kyuubi or Nine Tailed Fox), and carries a curse (they eventually go blind if they use the highest powers of their eyes too much, not to mention the method of unlocking those higher powers). Plus the fact that the baseline Sharingan is basically True Sight, with some other benefits in addition.
Tectorman 04-04-08, 11:35 AM	Okay, the progression I'm thinking of would be something like this: *Alian *Humanoid (Human) *Medium size *Base land speed: 30 feet *Darkvision (Ex): out to 90 feet *See in Darkness (Su): can see perfectly in darkness of any kind, even that created by a deeper darkness spell, out to 90 feet *Perfect Vision (Su): can see through blur and displacement effects out to 90 feet (and other such effects, like concealing amorpha) *@ 5 HD: can see invisible and ethereal creatures out to 90 feet *@ 10 HD: can see the true forms of polymorphed, changed, or transmuted creatures out to 90 feet, usable # of rounds equal to their HD (not necessarily all at once), activatable as a free action *also @ 10 HD: they have a % chance of automatically seeing through an illusion effect equal to (10 - spell level) x 10 (so they'd have a 90% chance for 1st-level spells, an 80% chance for 2nd-spells and so on) *(all Perfect Vision abilities act as True Seeing for the purposes of certain effects that make that distinction, such as a Ninja's Ki Dodge) *Curse of Perfect Vision: light sensitivity (as with the orc), the dazzled condition would apply a -2 penalty, and they'd take a -2 penalty to all saving throws against sight-based attacks (such as gaze attacks and the sunbeam spell) (sight-based illusions (if automatically seen through) wouldn't apply here) Automatic Languages: Common, Bonus Languages: Any except secret Favored Class: Any Level Adjustment: +1 Obviously, this isn't the clean, neat, fully typed out version, but that was what I was thinking. I'll probably post this in another thread, seeing as how I've got to come up with a backstory (originally this was set in a Modern-day Earth + Aliens setting which wouldn't work here; by the way, that's where the name came from: they're aliens from the planet Alia which would make them Alians). So, taking into account the LA +1, the delayed acquisition of all racial abilities, the scaled down nature of the abilities (90 foot range, some of it's limited in duration or effectiveness), and the Curse of Perfect Vision, how does all that stack up?
Damned slayer 04-04-08, 12:31 PM	I'd say between +2 or +3 the way you wrote it
Tectorman 04-08-08, 09:07 PM	You know, I just had an apostrophe! (Dustin Hoffman says, "you mean an epiphany") I don't need all of the TS abilities available for every member of the race and there's a cheap and simple way to make them still available. Paragon Classes I'm thinking take the Darkvision, the See in Darkness, and the See Invisibility parts, as well as the Light Sensitivity restriction, and set it against an LA +1. The See-through-illusions-and-transformed part I can just put in the Paragon class. Why did I not think of it before?