Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Alucard7087824 03-03-07, 08:44 PM	Would playing a Balor or a Pit Fiend be realistic and what would the LA be?
Turaj 03-03-07, 09:01 PM	About +15 or more. They can take on characters about that high with out class levels.
AMGriffin 03-03-07, 09:15 PM	Just drop it man. A balor or pit fiend PC is a NIGHTMARE for any DM and your fellow PCs too, no matter how epic the RP is. Heck in HD alone you're going to have an LA of +20 for a balor and LA+18 for the pit fiend.
Alucard7087824 03-03-07, 09:20 PM	Is there a progression for them in any of the books?
HomebrewedMonster 03-03-07, 10:11 PM	No, if you want to play a Pitfiend or Balor you should DM.
Ventilatory_Threshold 03-03-07, 11:41 PM	Heck in HD alone you're going to have an LA of +20 for a balor and LA+18 for the pit fiend. HD =/= LA. At least some of their abilities would be included in their racial HD (probably a lot of them), but the LA would probably still turn out large. Epic would be the way to go if you want to play them.
Thomar_of_Uointer 03-04-07, 02:18 AM	If you want to play a watered-down or cast-down version of one of those, my generic progressions (http://www.kobolds-keep.net/Progressions.pdf) would work well.
Iry 03-04-07, 02:18 AM	18 Racial HD, +2 LA, estimated ECL = 20 for the Pit Fiend. Afterall, by the CR system he's supposed to go 50/50 with an equivalent level 20 character and truth be told, while your average level 20 Melee character will underperform, your average level 20 Caster character will overperform. Of course, there is some merit to the argument that WotC arbitrarily gave the Devils -2 CR to make them a more memorable encounter. In which case, ECL 22 with +4 LA.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 03-04-07, 02:30 AM	18 Racial HD, +2 LA, estimated ECL = 20 for the Pit Fiend. Afterall, by the CR system he's supposed to go 50/50 with an equivalent level 20 character and truth be told, while your average level 20 Melee character will underperform, your average level 20 Caster character will overperform. Of course, there is some merit to the argument that WotC arbitrarily gave the Devils -2 CR to make them a more memorable encounter. In which case, ECL 22 with +4 LA. CR has nothing to do with ECL. For the record, it's about +8 for both.
Argaud 03-04-07, 03:34 AM	CR has nothing to do with ECL. For the record, it's about +8 for both. I tend to agree. A PC balor or pit fiend should be an ECL about 28-30. With elite stats. With the wealth an items of a level 28-30 epic PC. Such a character will annihilate a group of 4 level 20 adventurers almost without any effort, and will do the same with a bunch of normal balors or pitfiends.
Iry 03-04-07, 03:43 AM	CR has nothing to do with ECL. Yes, it does. A CR 20 creature should consume roughly 25% of the resources of 4 level 20 characters. It should also consume roughly 50% of the resources for 2 level 20 characters. It should also consume roughly 100% of the resources of a level 20 character. A CR 20 encounter for a level 20 Wizard would be another level 20 Wizard. A Mirror Match. 50/50 Win Loss Ratio in an ideal world. I will make the argument that in most cases CR is a superior system for judging ECL than level adjustment, and I will present the opinion that LA is far more arbitrary than CR. I will admit that in some exceptions WotC made a CR way off track (albeit far fewer instances of WTF than LA), and we must both accept that some iconic creatures were intentionally under CR'ed by 2.
Witch 03-04-07, 03:44 AM	I think it might just be more than 8. Latest suggestions I've heard that were well-argued said about 15 and an additional 18 HD for a pit fiend, making an ECL of 33. They're perfectly runnable, then. Remember: they've still got access to PC wealth, which is a huge bonus.
Witch 03-04-07, 03:50 AM	Yes, it does. A CR 20 creature should consume roughly 25% of the resources of 4 level 20 characters. It should also consume roughly 50% of the resources for 2 level 20 characters. It should also consume roughly 100% of the resources of a level 20 character. A CR 20 encounter for a level 20 Wizard would be another level 20 Wizard. A Mirror Match. 50/50 Win Loss Ratio in an ideal world. I will make the argument that in most cases CR is a superior system for judging ECL than level adjustment, and I will present the opinion that LA is far more arbitrary than CR. I will admit that in some exceptions WotC made a CR way off track, and we must both accept that some iconic creatures were intentionally under CR'ed by 2. CR judges power in a single fight. ECL judges long-term power. They don't judge the same things at all.
runestar 03-04-07, 03:52 AM	From the FAQ, It is perhaps unfortunate that an NPC who belongs to a standard Player’s Handbook race has a CR equal to her character level, because it implies that CR, character level, and ECL are the same. They aren’t—CR and character level just happen to have the same values sometimes. CR and ECL have nothing to do with each other, because they measure two different things. See the next question. I have been flipping through Savage Species, and I have become confused about the use of ECL. Would a 1st-level mind flayer wizard be an appropriate challenge for a party of 16th-level characters or for a party of 8th-level characters? Effective character level (ECL) is a measurement of a character’s impact as a player character in a campaign, and that usually differs from how dangerous it is as an NPC during a single encounter. To determine the challenge your example character presents, ignore ECL and use the rules for determining NPC Challenge Ratings in Chapter 7: Rewards of the Dungeon Master’s Guide. The example character has a CR of 9 (base CR of 8 for a mind flayer, +1 for its character level). All by itself, the example character is a challenge for a party of four 9th-level player characters. The example character’s ECL, however, is a whopping 16 (racial HD 8 + character level 1 + level adjustment 7). Why the difference? It has to do with the impact the character would have on a campaign as an ongoing PC, as opposed to the much lower impact it has during a single encounter (which is what CR measures). A party of four 9th-level PCs can reasonably expect to dispatch the mind flayer wizard NPC in a few rounds. As a player character, however, the mind flayer is much more powerful, since it uses its mind blast, psionics, and deadly tentacles against a succession of foes, encounter after encounter, adventure after adventure. and... Why do some creatures have effective character levels higher than their challenge rating? If a hound archon is only CR 4, how can it possibly be as good as an 11th-level character? After all, an 11th-level NPC is CR 11, not CR 4. Effective character level (ECL) and challenge rating (CR) appear similar—after all, they’re both numbers that rate a creature’s toughness—but they actually measure two very different things. A monster’s CR measures how tough that monster is in a typical combat encounter against player characters, while its ECL measures how powerful a PC it would make. Take the hound archon as an example of why this is true. In a typical fight, it likely gets a chance to use its aid spell-like ability only once. However, in a party of adventurers, it can use this ability on itself and every member of the party an unlimited number of times. This means that a smart group of PCs have aid in effect for every battle they fight—even a high-level cleric can’t guarantee that. Similarly, while a hound archon may use its greater teleport ability only a few times at most in a fight, a PC with the ability to use greater teleport at will has an enormous advantage, both in and out of combat. The hound archon’s damage reduction is also much more useful when used by a PC than by a monster. Most PC groups have the ability to deal with a creature’s damage reduction, either overcoming it with the necessary weapons or ignoring it altogether by damaging the monster with spells or other effects. However, most monsters don’t have this option. The vast majority of foes faced by a hound archon have no recourse but to use their normal attack forms, meaning the hound archon can ignore the first 10 points of damage from each and every attack made against it. In the end, a hound archon’s special powers don’t make it tougher than any other CR 4 monster (such as a gargoyle or vampire spawn), but they make it much more potent than a standard PC of a similar level. Hopes this helps in shedding some light.:)
Iry 03-04-07, 04:30 AM	CR judges power in a single fight. ECL judges long-term power. They don't judge the same things at all. CR is also potentially a decent judge of a highly intelligent opponent using its abilities in the most effective manner possible. (But not a judge of using favorable terrain, situations and allies) It is arguably far more effective than LA which is infinitely more arbitrary. CR is something that is acid tested in almost every game of D&D. Monsters are interacted with by players, and results are generated. Some are made lasting BBEGs, and others are one shot wonders. All of this experience should not be tossed out the door with a casual supposition, especially considering that ECL has drastically less playtesting. Consider that the average Racial HD is weaker than the average Core Class Level. Ergo, to incorporate an appropriate challenge we must either attach special abilities (LA) or inflate the Racial HD relative to the characters being encountered. When we attach special abilities (LA) we throw any guidebook right out the window, and that includes the Savage Species chart. We're effectively throwing darts at a dartboard. In the case of long term use abilities it is practically a non-issue. It is certainly true that some abilities, judiciously used, can change the style of game that you run but I will argue that it is not signifigantly more disruptive than your average spellcaster spending a couple days in downtime using divinations and other magicks. Most at will special abilities are not half as disruptive as some of the Core Spells. For those few that feel intimidated by any specific special ability, just don't allow that monster to be ran. It's honestly that easy. You do it all the time when you disallow PrCs on account of mechanics or flavor. In the case of Wealth and Stats, you should judge based on the NPC wealth chart and standard stats. It is true that giving the NPC monster PC level wealth and PC stats will result in a higher ECL game. This is additionally not a big deal, so long as your players don't throw a tantrum because their Pit Fiend doesn't have equivalent wealth to a 20th level human. Stats are also a non-issue because they are constantly addressed. It is already a given that exceptionally high stats rolled by standard core races generates mechanical results that simulate a higher ECL. So, standard NPC wealth, and standard stats. If your player is really jonesing to play a monster then just keep the bolded text in mind. Anything else does skew the CR, and most players are probably going to be more happy that they're a monster than the fact they have a few less shiney gadgets as opposed to being virtually incapable of contributing meaningfully to their group because of a hideous and virtually random LA.
Iry 03-04-07, 04:43 AM	In summary to the above post, try it out for yourself. You should be pleasantly suprised. Here's a quick run-down of how to enjoy playing a monster class. 1) Take CR. 2) Add 2 if iconic creature. (Mindflayer, Beholder, Vampire, Dragon, Fiend, and a few assorted others.) 3) Make New CR = Level of Party you can meaningfully contribute to. (CR 13 means three other 13th level characters in addition to yourself.) 4) Start with NPC wealth and Standard Array. 5) ? 6) Profit, and Enjoy.
Alucard7087824 03-04-07, 04:46 AM	And if the DM does not require racial hit dice? then what would the LA be to make it balanced-ish
runestar 03-04-07, 06:58 AM	And if the DM does not require racial hit dice? then what would the LA be to make it balanced-ish Ah yes, being able to spam blasphemies at will at lower lvs...the joy...:weep:
Finfreeze 03-04-07, 08:53 AM	Of course, this is limited due to the fact that Blasphemy's effects depend on a comparison between your hit dice and the opponent's hit dice... It's going to be hard to affect much of anything since you've got a level adjustment, and you shouldn't forget that enemy monsters of an appropriate CR tend to have 7 bajillion HD. Then there's the fact that a balor is a walking bomb that is very hard to revive. Now, this isn't looking at the balor's insane stats or it's other abilities. Soladrin's ECL Calculator (http://personal.nbnet.nb.ca/shadows/Handbook/ECLcalc.html) tentatively says that a 0 HD Balor would be a LA +19 creature. I can't imagine doing much more than exploding the moment it gets into battle, though.
Khael 03-04-07, 10:17 AM	Of course, this is limited due to the fact that Blasphemy's effects depend on a comparison between your hit dice and the opponent's hit dice... It's going to be hard to affect much of anything since you've got a level adjustment, and you shouldn't forget that enemy monsters of an appropriate CR tend to have 7 bajillion HD. Then there's the fact that a balor is a walking bomb that is very hard to revive. Now, this isn't looking at the balor's insane stats or it's other abilities. Soladrin's ECL Calculator (http://personal.nbnet.nb.ca/shadows/Handbook/ECLcalc.html) tentatively says that a 0 HD Balor would be a LA +19 creature. I can't imagine doing much more than exploding the moment it gets into battle, though. Bull. The balors CL is stated as 20. So the HD 1 Balor casts blasphemy as a CL20 still. Same with the others, not to mentino the dominate ability with isn't so CL limited even if the HD affected the CL. You might think a Hd1 balor weak,(outside of the explosion) how about it dominating every freaking monster that isn't undead or a construct thanks to the DC of at least 19, not counting the probable +10 CHA extra or so giving it a DC 25-27 odd?
Argaud 03-04-07, 10:56 AM	Soladrin's ECL Calculator (http://personal.nbnet.nb.ca/shadows/Handbook/ECLcalc.html) tentatively says that a 0 HD Balor would be a LA +19 creature. I can't imagine doing much more than exploding the moment it gets into battle, though. That calculator can't deal with massively powerful critters like major demons. I estimated +10 LA because with an elite array, skills points and feat chosen by a player and the wealth of a level 30 character I have the impression the balor/pit fiend is going to be as capable as your average level 30 character. Blasphemy is not going to be useful many times anymore, but being able to teleport and cast dominate monster at will is nothing to sneeze at (particularly dominate monster, a normal balor has DC 27, a PC balor at level 30 will probably have DC over 40) DR/15 cold iron and good is also pretty decent (not everybody will have epic weapons or epic DR), all non-good weapons do just subdual damage to a pit fiend, etc.
Alucard7087824 03-04-07, 01:39 PM	i guess i should have put the parameters of the campaign up to begin with. Here they are: 16th level party of about 6-8 players 28 point buy starting all abilities at 10 and having a max of 18 before Racial points buy 1 ability point/point All characters are evil but don't have to be i have access to MM, PHB, DMG2, Tome of Magic, Tome of Battle, Spell Compendium, and Complete Arcane No racial HD required because DM doesn't like the hassle The Balor would get STR+24, DEX+14, CON+20, INT+14, WIS+14, and CHA+16 The Pit Fiend would get STR+26, DEX+16, CON+16, INT+16, WIS+16, and CHA+16 So would the LA be playable at 16? I don't care if I only have one HD, it would be cool to try.
Finfreeze 03-04-07, 02:10 PM	Bull. The balors CL is stated as 20. Hey, hey, I just forgot about that, OK? Although it's not out of the ordinary to tie the Caster Levels of these spells to the creature's hit dice or racial class level (possibly + or - a certain number); most of the Savage Species monster progressions with spell-likes do it that way. As for dominate, there are a couple of problems with that tactic. 1. You have to find powerful enough opponents to dominate, as dominating a bunch of commoners won't get you much of anywhere at ECL 20 unless you want a kingdom or something. And even then you have to redominate your servants every couple of weeks and have to pay a standard action each day per dominated character or risk them making a save. 2. You have to be in range and have line of effect to hit with dominate, which can make this tactic extremely risky depending on the environment. 3. Monsters that make their save know that something's up. 4. You have 1d12+whatever bonuses HP at the most and explode in a flash of light upon death. 5. Quicken Spell-Like Ability doesn't work on Dominate Monster. All in all, I'd rather be a Thrallherd; they can replicate the Balor's dominate ability (and even quicken it if need be), get thralls and believers for free every day, have a better package of powers and abilities, and don't explode in one or two hits. They also have the HD and HP to not be one-shotted by Holy Word, Power Word Kill, Circle of Death, Sleep, and similar spells. But either way, a LA +19 anything is just a bad idea. That calculator can't deal with massively powerful critters like major demons. True, especially when you strip all the creature's hit dice and make them even more like glass cannons. It's a nice jumping-off point, though.
AMGriffin 03-04-07, 02:59 PM	HD =/= LA. At least some of their abilities would be included in their racial HD (probably a lot of them), but the LA would probably still turn out large. Epic would be the way to go if you want to play them. The point I was making was you have to add HD to LA for ECL. and they have 18/20 levels in HD. Which means their ECL is going to be AT LEAST 18 or 20.
Khael 03-04-07, 04:38 PM	Hey, hey, I just forgot about that, OK? Although it's not out of the ordinary to tie the Caster Levels of these spells to the creature's hit dice or racial class level (possibly + or - a certain number); most of the Savage Species monster progressions with spell-likes do it that way. Except we're not trying to make a savage progression here, its more work out how the LA would be. [QUOTE=Finfreeze;11662244] As for dominate, there are a couple of problems with that tactic. 1. You have to find powerful enough opponents to dominate, as dominating a bunch of commoners won't get you much of anywhere at ECL 20 unless you want a kingdom or something. And even then you have to redominate your servants every couple of weeks and have to pay a standard action each day per dominated character or risk them making a save. 2. You have to be in range and have line of effect to hit with dominate, which can make this tactic extremely risky depending on the environment. 3. Monsters that make their save know that something's up. 4. You have 1d12+whatever bonuses HP at the most and explode in a flash of light upon death. 5. Quicken Spell-Like Ability doesn't work on Dominate Monster. 1) You have a DC of 27+ in this campaign. It's not really a case of powerful opponents, you just need one or two good ones. How about the king? Or a lord. Anyone with power and money is good. A warrior type or ten maybe to act as bodyguard? Thats a minute a day to renew. 2)Quicken teleport? 3) You have a DC of at least 27, if they made their save they were either lucky or going to own you anyway. 4) Don't forget... as a demon on the material plane you'll reform in the abyss... and its at least 22 Hp. You have a glass jaw, but at the high levels of this game, its sound like the Balor'd be the one making the ambush. 5) It does though on teleport. All in all, I'd rather be a Thrallherd; they can replicate the Balor's dominate ability (and even quicken it if need be), get thralls and believers for free every day, have a better package of powers and abilities, and don't explode in one or two hits. They also have the HD and HP to not be one-shotted by Holy Word, Power Word Kill, Circle of Death, Sleep, and similar spells. But either way, a LA +19 anything is just a bad idea. No doubt, despite what i'm saying up there I'd take a thrallherd any day of the week over that LA'd Balor. The LA does kill it (And I'd never been a fan of any LA unless its a serious need.)
El_Machinae 03-04-07, 07:10 PM	Removing the HD does complicate things ... it's not very thematic to remove the HD either.
deanruel 03-04-07, 11:10 PM	Would playing a Balor or a Pit Fiend be realistic and what would the LA be? I am about to solve your problem, and any other LA related problem you've ever had in one swift stroke. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=681572 You want to go down to the "Powerful Races" section. Give it a read through. And then enjoy a lifetime of problem free character creation from then on. Enjoy.
runestar 03-05-07, 12:08 AM	If you make a will save, I don't think you know that you were even subjected to one. So a king who successfully saved against dominate monster is none the wiser and the balor is free to try again the next round until it succeeds.:) 1. You have to find powerful enough opponents to dominate, as dominating a bunch of commoners won't get you much of anywhere at ECL 20 unless you want a kingdom or something. And even then you have to redominate your servants every couple of weeks and have to pay a standard action each day per dominated character or risk them making a save. Your opponents will be powerful enough...
RobbyPants 03-05-07, 10:47 AM	CR judges power in a single fight. ECL judges long-term power. They don't judge the same things at all. Agreed. A lot of what gives monsters larger ECLs than CRs is that some abilities are more "powerful" in the hands of players than monsters. Just for an example, consider the ability to turn etheral or even incoporeal. Monsters with these abilities will have some hit-and-run advantages, and they can escape easier, but that's about it. It is true that the monster could completely avoid the PCs, but what's the point? Why stat up a monster that the PCs will never meet? PCs with those abilities have the abitlity to completly bypass many encounters (which has a much bigger impact on the game). The only time it works to compare CR and ECL is then the race has very few special abilities. In many situations, CR and ECL are so vastly different, it's not worth comparing.
Alucard7087824 03-05-07, 06:45 PM	If you make a will save, I don't think you know that you were even subjected to one. So a king who successfully saved against dominate monster is none the wiser and the balor is free to try again the next round until it succeeds.:) Dominate Monster doesn't work on humanoids does it? Don't they have to actually be a monster? That is the point of having Dominate Monster and Dominate Person.
Thomar_of_Uointer 03-05-07, 08:29 PM	Dominate Monster doesn't work on humanoids does it? Don't they have to actually be a monster? That is the point of having Dominate Monster and Dominate Person. No, the point of dominate monster is that it is not restricted to humanoids and affects creatures of any type. It also has a higher save DC.
Finfreeze 03-05-07, 08:41 PM	Dominate monster isn't restricted by creature type except in cases where the creature type specifically says they're immune to it, like how undead are immune to mind-affecting stuff. As for whether or not you know you've resisted a spell or spell-like ability... Succeeding on a Saving Throw: A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack. Likewise, if a creature’s saving throw succeeds against a targeted spell you sense that the spell has failed. You do not sense when creatures succeed on saves against effect and area spells. So while you can't tell what it was exactly unless you make a spellcraft check, you do get a warning.
Iry 03-06-07, 01:55 PM	Agreed. A lot of what gives monsters larger ECLs than CRs is that some abilities are more "powerful" in the hands of players than monsters. Just for an example, consider the ability to turn etheral or even incoporeal. Monsters with these abilities will have some hit-and-run advantages, and they can escape easier, but that's about it. It is true that the monster could completely avoid the PCs, but what's the point? Why stat up a monster that the PCs will never meet? PCs with those abilities have the abitlity to completly bypass many encounters (which has a much bigger impact on the game). The only time it works to compare CR and ECL is then the race has very few special abilities. In many situations, CR and ECL are so vastly different, it's not worth comparing. Unfortunately it is infinitely more useful to use CR as a comparison than ECL based not only on the vast amount of playtesting the majority (Note: Not those oddball exceptions that creep up) of monsters recieve in combat situations. This is compared to the serious lack of playtesting that goes into determining Level Adjustment; so much so that it can actually make non-contributing characters in many cases.
epifreak 03-06-07, 09:46 PM	So the consensus is if playable at all, it's an LA around 10? Just curious in case of the off chance that I ever find a massively epic campaign; it might be nifty to try. As was asked before, what are the odds of finding a savage progression of it? It might be fun to try.
starfire311 03-06-07, 10:27 PM	In summary to the above post, try it out for yourself. You should be pleasantly suprised. Here's a quick run-down of how to enjoy playing a monster class. 1) Take CR. 2) Add 2 if iconic creature. (Mindflayer, Beholder, Vampire, Dragon, Fiend, and a few assorted others.) 3) Make New CR = Level of Party you can meaningfully contribute to. (CR 13 means three other 13th level characters in addition to yourself.) 4) Start with NPC wealth and Standard Array. 5) ? 6) Profit, and Enjoy. the big question would be, why are you penalizing a player by making them use a different stat generation, and how do you keep them from getting a fair share of the treasure. I suppose if you gimp there stats and make it impossiblle for them to gain treasure then yes you can give them a lower ECL, but be careful when your plans get ruined by someone taking VoP.
starfire311 03-06-07, 10:32 PM	Unfortunately it is infinitely more useful to use CR as a comparison than ECL based not only on the vast amount of playtesting the majority (Note: Not those oddball exceptions that creep up) of monsters recieve in combat situations. This is compared to the serious lack of playtesting that goes into determining Level Adjustment; so much so that it can actually make non-contributing characters in many cases. So you would say that an ogre PC would be ECL 3 since it is not iconic and its CR is 3 and the ECL of a Hill giant Dire Wereboar is a mere 11 even though it has 19HD