Barbarian as a race [Archive] - Wizards Community

Barbarian as a race [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Shadowfax7
10-17-07, 09:37 PM I wanted to have a barbarian race instead of a class IMC and would like to know if the following is balanced:

Now the sole question is . . . is the race balanced against the other core races ??

* +2 Strength, -2 Intelligence
* Medium: As Medium creatures, barbarians have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
* Barbarian base land speed is 40 feet.
* Rage (Ex) 1/day.
* +2 on Survival and Handle Animal checks.
* Illiteracy
* Automatic Language: Common. Bonus Languages: None
* Favored Class: Fighter. A multiclass barbarian’s fighter class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing.

There will be feats to grant Greater Rage, Indomitable Will, Tireless Rage, Mighty Rage or DR and feats granting more Rages/day or more DR already exist.

Now this race combined with some classes:

A barbarian Fighter could use his Fighter bonus feats to increase his Rage ability.

A barbarian Rogue would get the abilities of Uncanny Dodge, Improved Uncanny Dodge and Trap Sense.

And there would be no Barbarian class.
Strudel_Lumpycakes
10-17-07, 09:49 PM First question... why is barbarian not their favored class? Oh, and no alignment restriction. That's only for beings of elemental evil (or good). Post some flavor text so we can get a better idea of what this race is like.
HCL
10-17-07, 10:02 PM I really don't get it
DonThelonious
10-17-07, 10:16 PM I get what you are trying to do here. You need to post (much) more fluff, as to what this race looks like, how are they perceived in the world, how they interact with the world around them. Things of this nature. If you would please post these things, I will check back later and give you some input.
Shadowfax7
10-18-07, 06:53 AM I only posted this to get an idea of whether the race's stats are balanced against the other core races (Dwarves, Elves, Humans)

There is no fluff needed. This is the barbarian class at 1st level as a race instead of a class. It doesn't matter if you think barbarians should be a class or a race or whether you like the race or want to play it. That is not the point of the post. This post is really for the people on this board that know how to balanced the stats of a new race at +0 LA. If you have an opinion on the following questions, please provide it.

1) Is the race balanced against the other core races ??

2) Should they have bonuses to Survival and Knowledge (nature) checks or Survival and Listen as class skills ??

3) Should they have an alignment limitation of non-lawful ??
zeratulcraft
10-18-07, 07:18 AM Races that are not Outsiders do not have alignment limitations, but they do have an alignment that they 'tend' towards, like Drow and NE. Or Surface Elves and CG. Or Humans and any alignment.

Keep in mind, 'barbarous' nations are generally very spiritual and are organized in tribes and follow their leaders almost unquestionably. They also have a strong sense of traditions. Sounds pretty lawful to me actually.
JarionSilverblades
10-18-07, 10:37 AM I can see why you want a race based on a class. I created an Amazon race a while ago, and most people felt Amazon should be a class not a race. Based on your original idea here is a different take on a Barbarian-based race.

There is one thing you need to keep in mind when comparing it to the Core Races, Not all Core races are created equal, Half-elf and Half-orc are very weak.

The race does need some fluff. Unlike the class, it doesn't gain HD, Skill Points, BAB, or Weapon and Armor Proficiency.

Using Yabathewhats point system, here is a balanced LA +0 race based on the barbarian class.

Barbarian RaceSAVAGE (Barbarian)

* +2 Strength, -2 Intelligence. A savage’s training is focused on power and strength. [4 FP]
* Medium: As Medium creatures, barbarians have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. [0 FP]
* Barbarian base land speed is 30 feet. [0 FP]
* Rage (Ex) 1/day. [8 FP]
* +2 on Survival and Intimidate. [2 FP]
* Illiteracy [-2 FP]
* Weapon Proficiency: Savages receive Martial Weapon Proficiency with Great Axe, Greatsword, and Club as bonus feats. [2 FP]
* Human Blood: For all effects related to race, a savage is considered a human. Savages, for example, are just as vulnerable to special effects that affect humans as their human ancestors are. [0 FP]
* Automatic Language: Common. Bonus Languages: Giant, Goblin, and Orc. [0 FP]
* Favored Class: Barbarian. A multiclass Savage’s Barbarian class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing. [0 FP]

Total: FP 14 = Balanced +0 LA
larry_the_titan
10-18-07, 11:17 AM There is one thing you need to keep in mind when comparing it to the Core Races, Not all Core races are created equal, Half-elf and Half-orc are very weak.

I find it funny that you pull out Yaba's Feature point system then state that Half-Elves and Half-Orcs are very weak. While the system did show Half-Orcs to be weak and nearly worthless outside of its niche. Half-Elves on the other were shown to be fairly close to balanced unless the system has changed recently.
JarionSilverblades
10-18-07, 11:32 AM I find it funny that you pull out Jaba's Feature point system then state that Half-Elves and Half-Orcs are very weak. While the system did show Half-Orcs to be weak and nearly worthless outside of its niche. Half-Elves on the other were shown to be fairly close to balanced unless the system has changed recently.

No it hasn't. You're right the half-elf is balanced, but they're still weak.
larry_the_titan
10-18-07, 11:43 AM Half-Elf weak compared to what Dwarf or Elf. I think those 2 are to high in power and should lose something. Even though it doesn't have to be anything huge. A slight drop in power would bring the races into a more balanced level. On the other hand Half-Orcs only have about half of a pitiful race to begin with so add what ever you want to them.
Tordak
10-18-07, 03:54 PM I'd say you're barbarian race is balanced (keep the skill bonus, drop the alignement restriction). They could have stats bonus to reflect the emphasis a race with that type of cultural developpement put on aptitudes, like bonus to strengh, penalties to intelligence. However, I don't know anything about the Yaba's Feature points system, but usually race that have a bonus to strengh would muster a +1 LA unless they have 2 2-points penalty to other stats (half orc is a good example).

As for dwarves and elves, well they are among the oldest fantasy races, it's kind of hard to bring them down. I think older editions of D&D dealt with the problem with limited level. I don't think they deserve bigger LA or less abilities, I really don't know what I'd do with that.
Finfreeze
10-18-07, 05:13 PM While I'm not a fan of a class being a race, I suppose it looks kinda OK. It sorta goes to show how empty a lot of levels are for most non-caster classes, though. Keep the skill bonuses.

I wouldn't be above giving it +2 Str, -2 Int and a bonus language or two as well. It needs an edge for when you've used up your rage.

Ooh...

BARBARIANS
+2 Str, -2 Int, +2 Wis, -2 Cha.
Medium: As Medium creatures, barbarians have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Barbarian base land speed is 40 feet.
Rage (Ex) 1/day.
+1 racial bonus on Survival and Knowledge (nature) checks.
+3 racial bonus on Handle Animal and Intimidate checks.
Illiteracy.
Automatic Language: Barbarian. Bonus Languages: Any.
Favored Class: Fighter. A multiclass barbarian’s fighter class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing.

Now I think it looks more interesting.

* Rage (Ex) 1/day. [8 FP]
Wow.

...Dwarf or Elf. I think those 2 are to high in power and should lose something.
Dwarf is up there (but I prefer human), but (high) elf is in no way strong. It's actually pretty weak. You get a penalty to the stat NOBODY wants to dump, weapon proficiencies that most classes are already proficient in or shouldn't be bothering with past the very low levels, and some good skill bonuses that don't help with their favored class at all. Not to mention that Wizard is exactly the kind of class you don't want to favor and elves make bad wizards...

It's nothing compared to +1 skill point per level, a bonus feat, and a much simpler multiclassing system or +2 Con and +2 to saves versus spells.
Xiuhcoatl
10-18-07, 06:11 PM There is no fluff needed.

Fluff is needed. To explain various things, we need fluff. A race without fluff is just statistics -- and it is hard to balance things when we do not know how they are supposed to be seen in the world.
Shadowfax7
10-18-07, 08:28 PM At JarionSilverblades . . . first, I am not a great fan of Yaba's Feature Point system. I prefer the race creation system in the Advanced PHB by Skip Williams.

I like the +2 Str, -2 Int, even though what Tordak states is correct. These are unbalanced ability scores according to WotC. However, I feel it is OK because Illiteracy is a penalty.

The Speed of the race must be 40'.

Rage is what is giving me the most trouble. How much is it worth ?? 8 FP is certaintly way too low IMO. I was thinking Rage might be worth as much as the human's bonus feat.

+2 Survival and +2 Intimidate, this is a decent idea. I prefer it over the +2 Knowledge (nature).

Weapon proficiencies are a possibility.

At Finfreeze . . . I feel 2 bonused abilities and 2 penalized abilities is too much. Besides, giving them a +2 Wis also, makes them too good of a Cleric.

I also like the +2 to Handle Animal checks, in addition to the +2 to Survival checks. However, I am not sure I want to add a +2 to Intimidate as well.
Xiuhcoatl
10-18-07, 08:39 PM Rage is certainly worth more than a feat.
Shadowfax7
10-19-07, 09:02 PM Rage is certainly worth more than a feat.Agreed, but how much.

The Human's Bonus feat (different from just a designated feat for a race) is about 1/2 of a Human's total racial traits.
The_Hedgewizard
10-19-07, 09:08 PM This sounds like it would really work better as a template that can be applied to certain races or classes rather than a race on its own, IMO.
Einvaldurinn_mikli
10-19-07, 09:13 PM It's too good. Getting Rage and access to the other rage abilities as feats is just a little too good. The 40 feet movement speed is also nice. It's not quite LA +1 though.(But neither is it +0)
Avernyia
10-19-07, 10:29 PM Silly person. Barbarians can't be a race....thats politically incorrect! You see....its like calling the Jews a race. So even if you HAVE figured it out...thats totally racist in my opinion.
In the side of stats though...by making Barbarian a race you are assuming that Bars. are one people as a whole...but would a halfling Barbarian be the same as an Illithid barbarian? No.
InkBlot
10-21-07, 01:21 PM A barbarian race would be suitable for a game set in a slightly fantastical Roman Empire. Everyone has to be human, but from an ancient Roman's point of view a gaul was just as different from a greek as a dwarf is from an elf.
Xiuhcoatl
10-21-07, 01:40 PM Really, if you just changed the name people won't have such an issue.

Call them Wookies*, or Ragemen, or whatever.

*Wookies in the Revised Core Rulebook have a racial Rage ability
Shadowfax7
10-21-07, 07:32 PM A barbarian race would be suitable for a game set in a slightly fantastical Roman Empire.Funny you should say that . . . the campaign I run is set in Ancient Europe (however, pre-Roman).

But I am asking only for this race to be balanced. Some people understood this, some did not and still don't, but that's OK :)

Really, if you just changed the name people won't have such an issue. Call them Buga-buga men for all I care.

Again I am asking only for opinions on balancing the race against the core races, like Jarion and FinFreeze provided.

Wookies in the Revised Core Rulebook have a racial Rage ability Are you referring to SW d20 ??

Anyway I have revised the race in the original post as per some suggestions I received . . .
Jaxgaret
10-21-07, 08:06 PM Let's compare it to a Human:

Let's say for simplicity's sake that Illiteracy + No Bonus Languages + FC (Fighter) balances out the free +2 to Survival and Handle Animal.

The ability scores are balanced. I don't care what WotC says - in the core rules as they are now, a +2 Str is balanced to a -2 mental. Perhaps if casters weren't so overpowered compared to melee warriors, this wouldn't be true, but it is so.

Now, compared to a human, this race gets Rage 1/day and 40' base land movement compared to the Human's free feat and +1 sp/level.

Now, to parse this out, 40' base movement is the equivalent of 2 free feats (Dash x2), albeit weak feats, and Rage is, as was stated above, worth more than a feat, so that the Barbarian's total on this end is approximately three feats, if not a bit more.

The Human's single bonus feat and additional sp/level adds up to approximately three or four bonus feats. The flexibility of selecting what the Human's bonus feat is - which leads to build synergy - makes that bonus feat worth the maximum of any single feat, essentially. In other words, a strong feat. +1 sp/level is harder to measure in terms of worth, but a comparison drawn from existing feats is to that of the feat that gives +5 skill points. By a direct conversion, this would mean that the +23 skill points that the Human gets over 20 levels is worth 4.6 feats, but that is a flawed analysis. It is really closer to about 2.7 feats - the average over 20 levels that the Human will benefit from it (starting at +4 and ending at +23, this averages to 13.5 skill points of improvement).

So the Human gets about a half of a feat more benefit than the Barbarian. Thus I would call the Barbarian class just about balanced. The difference can be made up by the "a Strength bonus is worth more than a mental penalty" theory that WotC ascribes to, if you feel like agreeing with them in this case for some reason.
Shadowfax7
10-23-07, 08:56 PM OK, so the final version is fairly balanced . . .

Any other comments, otherwise this thread will end.
Noblehawk33
10-23-07, 11:25 PM is the rage limited to 1 a day or does it increase as with the class? if it doesn't I think it weakens the race.
Shadowfax7
10-24-07, 08:58 PM is the rage limited to 1 a day or does it increase as with the class? if it doesn't I think it weakens the race.
Limited to 1/day just like the 1st level Barbarian class, but you can take the feat Extra Rage to increase it multiple times.

Note that the best build for a multi-raging barbarian race would then be a Fighter (which is the race's Favored Class BTW) due to the bonus feats they get. This would leave your normal feats for Extra Rage.
ToastedAmphibian
10-24-07, 10:06 PM To make it balanced more, you might want to make all the rage feats fighter bonus feats. The only reason they arn't currently is because they didnt want to overly encourage multiclass barbarians/fighters. But seeing as their IS no barbarian class in your world, and seeing as nearly ALL barbarians are fighters, it seems only fair to make them fighter feats. Most non-barbarian figthers wouldnt qualify for them anyways, so there really wouldnt be any harm in it.
Shadowfax7
10-25-07, 06:37 PM Well with the normal set of feats, a barbarian of any class could Rage 15x/day at 20th level by using all his feats. By using only 3 of his feats, he already could Rage 7x/day which is more than a Barbarian class w/o Extra Rage feat(s).

Allowing Fighter bonus feats to be used for Extra Rage would allow up to 5x/day at 1st level, 7x/day at 2nd level . . . . to 37x/day at 20th level !!

IMO it is unnecessary.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Shadowfax7 10-17-07, 09:37 PM	I wanted to have a barbarian race instead of a class IMC and would like to know if the following is balanced: Now the sole question is . . . is the race balanced against the other core races ?? * +2 Strength, -2 Intelligence * Medium: As Medium creatures, barbarians have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. * Barbarian base land speed is 40 feet. * Rage (Ex) 1/day. * +2 on Survival and Handle Animal checks. * Illiteracy * Automatic Language: Common. Bonus Languages: None * Favored Class: Fighter. A multiclass barbarian’s fighter class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing. There will be feats to grant Greater Rage, Indomitable Will, Tireless Rage, Mighty Rage or DR and feats granting more Rages/day or more DR already exist. Now this race combined with some classes: A barbarian Fighter could use his Fighter bonus feats to increase his Rage ability. A barbarian Rogue would get the abilities of Uncanny Dodge, Improved Uncanny Dodge and Trap Sense. And there would be no Barbarian class.
Strudel_Lumpycakes 10-17-07, 09:49 PM	First question... why is barbarian not their favored class? Oh, and no alignment restriction. That's only for beings of elemental evil (or good). Post some flavor text so we can get a better idea of what this race is like.
HCL 10-17-07, 10:02 PM	I really don't get it
DonThelonious 10-17-07, 10:16 PM	I get what you are trying to do here. You need to post (much) more fluff, as to what this race looks like, how are they perceived in the world, how they interact with the world around them. Things of this nature. If you would please post these things, I will check back later and give you some input.
Shadowfax7 10-18-07, 06:53 AM	I only posted this to get an idea of whether the race's stats are balanced against the other core races (Dwarves, Elves, Humans) There is no fluff needed. This is the barbarian class at 1st level as a race instead of a class. It doesn't matter if you think barbarians should be a class or a race or whether you like the race or want to play it. That is not the point of the post. This post is really for the people on this board that know how to balanced the stats of a new race at +0 LA. If you have an opinion on the following questions, please provide it. 1) Is the race balanced against the other core races ?? 2) Should they have bonuses to Survival and Knowledge (nature) checks or Survival and Listen as class skills ?? 3) Should they have an alignment limitation of non-lawful ??
zeratulcraft 10-18-07, 07:18 AM	Races that are not Outsiders do not have alignment limitations, but they do have an alignment that they 'tend' towards, like Drow and NE. Or Surface Elves and CG. Or Humans and any alignment. Keep in mind, 'barbarous' nations are generally very spiritual and are organized in tribes and follow their leaders almost unquestionably. They also have a strong sense of traditions. Sounds pretty lawful to me actually.
JarionSilverblades 10-18-07, 10:37 AM	I can see why you want a race based on a class. I created an Amazon race a while ago, and most people felt Amazon should be a class not a race. Based on your original idea here is a different take on a Barbarian-based race. There is one thing you need to keep in mind when comparing it to the Core Races, Not all Core races are created equal, Half-elf and Half-orc are very weak. The race does need some fluff. Unlike the class, it doesn't gain HD, Skill Points, BAB, or Weapon and Armor Proficiency. Using Yabathewhats point system, here is a balanced LA +0 race based on the barbarian class. Barbarian RaceSAVAGE (Barbarian) * +2 Strength, -2 Intelligence. A savage’s training is focused on power and strength. [4 FP] * Medium: As Medium creatures, barbarians have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. [0 FP] * Barbarian base land speed is 30 feet. [0 FP] * Rage (Ex) 1/day. [8 FP] * +2 on Survival and Intimidate. [2 FP] * Illiteracy [-2 FP] * Weapon Proficiency: Savages receive Martial Weapon Proficiency with Great Axe, Greatsword, and Club as bonus feats. [2 FP] * Human Blood: For all effects related to race, a savage is considered a human. Savages, for example, are just as vulnerable to special effects that affect humans as their human ancestors are. [0 FP] * Automatic Language: Common. Bonus Languages: Giant, Goblin, and Orc. [0 FP] * Favored Class: Barbarian. A multiclass Savage’s Barbarian class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing. [0 FP] Total: FP 14 = Balanced +0 LA
larry_the_titan 10-18-07, 11:17 AM	There is one thing you need to keep in mind when comparing it to the Core Races, Not all Core races are created equal, Half-elf and Half-orc are very weak. I find it funny that you pull out Yaba's Feature point system then state that Half-Elves and Half-Orcs are very weak. While the system did show Half-Orcs to be weak and nearly worthless outside of its niche. Half-Elves on the other were shown to be fairly close to balanced unless the system has changed recently.
JarionSilverblades 10-18-07, 11:32 AM	I find it funny that you pull out Jaba's Feature point system then state that Half-Elves and Half-Orcs are very weak. While the system did show Half-Orcs to be weak and nearly worthless outside of its niche. Half-Elves on the other were shown to be fairly close to balanced unless the system has changed recently. No it hasn't. You're right the half-elf is balanced, but they're still weak.
larry_the_titan 10-18-07, 11:43 AM	Half-Elf weak compared to what Dwarf or Elf. I think those 2 are to high in power and should lose something. Even though it doesn't have to be anything huge. A slight drop in power would bring the races into a more balanced level. On the other hand Half-Orcs only have about half of a pitiful race to begin with so add what ever you want to them.
Tordak 10-18-07, 03:54 PM	I'd say you're barbarian race is balanced (keep the skill bonus, drop the alignement restriction). They could have stats bonus to reflect the emphasis a race with that type of cultural developpement put on aptitudes, like bonus to strengh, penalties to intelligence. However, I don't know anything about the Yaba's Feature points system, but usually race that have a bonus to strengh would muster a +1 LA unless they have 2 2-points penalty to other stats (half orc is a good example). As for dwarves and elves, well they are among the oldest fantasy races, it's kind of hard to bring them down. I think older editions of D&D dealt with the problem with limited level. I don't think they deserve bigger LA or less abilities, I really don't know what I'd do with that.
Finfreeze 10-18-07, 05:13 PM	While I'm not a fan of a class being a race, I suppose it looks kinda OK. It sorta goes to show how empty a lot of levels are for most non-caster classes, though. Keep the skill bonuses. I wouldn't be above giving it +2 Str, -2 Int and a bonus language or two as well. It needs an edge for when you've used up your rage. Ooh... BARBARIANS +2 Str, -2 Int, +2 Wis, -2 Cha. Medium: As Medium creatures, barbarians have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. Barbarian base land speed is 40 feet. Rage (Ex) 1/day. +1 racial bonus on Survival and Knowledge (nature) checks. +3 racial bonus on Handle Animal and Intimidate checks. Illiteracy. Automatic Language: Barbarian. Bonus Languages: Any. Favored Class: Fighter. A multiclass barbarian’s fighter class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing. Now I think it looks more interesting. * Rage (Ex) 1/day. [8 FP] Wow. ...Dwarf or Elf. I think those 2 are to high in power and should lose something. Dwarf is up there (but I prefer human), but (high) elf is in no way strong. It's actually pretty weak. You get a penalty to the stat NOBODY wants to dump, weapon proficiencies that most classes are already proficient in or shouldn't be bothering with past the very low levels, and some good skill bonuses that don't help with their favored class at all. Not to mention that Wizard is exactly the kind of class you don't want to favor and elves make bad wizards... It's nothing compared to +1 skill point per level, a bonus feat, and a much simpler multiclassing system or +2 Con and +2 to saves versus spells.
Xiuhcoatl 10-18-07, 06:11 PM	There is no fluff needed. Fluff is needed. To explain various things, we need fluff. A race without fluff is just statistics -- and it is hard to balance things when we do not know how they are supposed to be seen in the world.
Shadowfax7 10-18-07, 08:28 PM	At JarionSilverblades . . . first, I am not a great fan of Yaba's Feature Point system. I prefer the race creation system in the Advanced PHB by Skip Williams. I like the +2 Str, -2 Int, even though what Tordak states is correct. These are unbalanced ability scores according to WotC. However, I feel it is OK because Illiteracy is a penalty. The Speed of the race must be 40'. Rage is what is giving me the most trouble. How much is it worth ?? 8 FP is certaintly way too low IMO. I was thinking Rage might be worth as much as the human's bonus feat. +2 Survival and +2 Intimidate, this is a decent idea. I prefer it over the +2 Knowledge (nature). Weapon proficiencies are a possibility. At Finfreeze . . . I feel 2 bonused abilities and 2 penalized abilities is too much. Besides, giving them a +2 Wis also, makes them too good of a Cleric. I also like the +2 to Handle Animal checks, in addition to the +2 to Survival checks. However, I am not sure I want to add a +2 to Intimidate as well.
Xiuhcoatl 10-18-07, 08:39 PM	Rage is certainly worth more than a feat.
Shadowfax7 10-19-07, 09:02 PM	Rage is certainly worth more than a feat.Agreed, but how much. The Human's Bonus feat (different from just a designated feat for a race) is about 1/2 of a Human's total racial traits.
The_Hedgewizard 10-19-07, 09:08 PM	This sounds like it would really work better as a template that can be applied to certain races or classes rather than a race on its own, IMO.
Einvaldurinn_mikli 10-19-07, 09:13 PM	It's too good. Getting Rage and access to the other rage abilities as feats is just a little too good. The 40 feet movement speed is also nice. It's not quite LA +1 though.(But neither is it +0)
Avernyia 10-19-07, 10:29 PM	Silly person. Barbarians can't be a race....thats politically incorrect! You see....its like calling the Jews a race. So even if you HAVE figured it out...thats totally racist in my opinion. In the side of stats though...by making Barbarian a race you are assuming that Bars. are one people as a whole...but would a halfling Barbarian be the same as an Illithid barbarian? No.
InkBlot 10-21-07, 01:21 PM	A barbarian race would be suitable for a game set in a slightly fantastical Roman Empire. Everyone has to be human, but from an ancient Roman's point of view a gaul was just as different from a greek as a dwarf is from an elf.
Xiuhcoatl 10-21-07, 01:40 PM	Really, if you just changed the name people won't have such an issue. Call them Wookies, or Ragemen, or whatever. Wookies in the Revised Core Rulebook have a racial Rage ability
Shadowfax7 10-21-07, 07:32 PM	A barbarian race would be suitable for a game set in a slightly fantastical Roman Empire.Funny you should say that . . . the campaign I run is set in Ancient Europe (however, pre-Roman). But I am asking only for this race to be balanced. Some people understood this, some did not and still don't, but that's OK :) Really, if you just changed the name people won't have such an issue. Call them Buga-buga men for all I care. Again I am asking only for opinions on balancing the race against the core races, like Jarion and FinFreeze provided. Wookies in the Revised Core Rulebook have a racial Rage ability Are you referring to SW d20 ?? Anyway I have revised the race in the original post as per some suggestions I received . . .
Jaxgaret 10-21-07, 08:06 PM	Let's compare it to a Human: Let's say for simplicity's sake that Illiteracy + No Bonus Languages + FC (Fighter) balances out the free +2 to Survival and Handle Animal. The ability scores are balanced. I don't care what WotC says - in the core rules as they are now, a +2 Str is balanced to a -2 mental. Perhaps if casters weren't so overpowered compared to melee warriors, this wouldn't be true, but it is so. Now, compared to a human, this race gets Rage 1/day and 40' base land movement compared to the Human's free feat and +1 sp/level. Now, to parse this out, 40' base movement is the equivalent of 2 free feats (Dash x2), albeit weak feats, and Rage is, as was stated above, worth more than a feat, so that the Barbarian's total on this end is approximately three feats, if not a bit more. The Human's single bonus feat and additional sp/level adds up to approximately three or four bonus feats. The flexibility of selecting what the Human's bonus feat is - which leads to build synergy - makes that bonus feat worth the maximum of any single feat, essentially. In other words, a strong feat. +1 sp/level is harder to measure in terms of worth, but a comparison drawn from existing feats is to that of the feat that gives +5 skill points. By a direct conversion, this would mean that the +23 skill points that the Human gets over 20 levels is worth 4.6 feats, but that is a flawed analysis. It is really closer to about 2.7 feats - the average over 20 levels that the Human will benefit from it (starting at +4 and ending at +23, this averages to 13.5 skill points of improvement). So the Human gets about a half of a feat more benefit than the Barbarian. Thus I would call the Barbarian class just about balanced. The difference can be made up by the "a Strength bonus is worth more than a mental penalty" theory that WotC ascribes to, if you feel like agreeing with them in this case for some reason.
Shadowfax7 10-23-07, 08:56 PM	OK, so the final version is fairly balanced . . . Any other comments, otherwise this thread will end.
Noblehawk33 10-23-07, 11:25 PM	is the rage limited to 1 a day or does it increase as with the class? if it doesn't I think it weakens the race.
Shadowfax7 10-24-07, 08:58 PM	is the rage limited to 1 a day or does it increase as with the class? if it doesn't I think it weakens the race. Limited to 1/day just like the 1st level Barbarian class, but you can take the feat Extra Rage to increase it multiple times. Note that the best build for a multi-raging barbarian race would then be a Fighter (which is the race's Favored Class BTW) due to the bonus feats they get. This would leave your normal feats for Extra Rage.
ToastedAmphibian 10-24-07, 10:06 PM	To make it balanced more, you might want to make all the rage feats fighter bonus feats. The only reason they arn't currently is because they didnt want to overly encourage multiclass barbarians/fighters. But seeing as their IS no barbarian class in your world, and seeing as nearly ALL barbarians are fighters, it seems only fair to make them fighter feats. Most non-barbarian figthers wouldnt qualify for them anyways, so there really wouldnt be any harm in it.
Shadowfax7 10-25-07, 06:37 PM	Well with the normal set of feats, a barbarian of any class could Rage 15x/day at 20th level by using all his feats. By using only 3 of his feats, he already could Rage 7x/day which is more than a Barbarian class w/o Extra Rage feat(s). Allowing Fighter bonus feats to be used for Extra Rage would allow up to 5x/day at 1st level, 7x/day at 2nd level . . . . to 37x/day at 20th level !! IMO it is unnecessary.