Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Perseus_Stoned 03-05-07, 02:55 AM	Hey everybody, I was just wondering how stats would be ranked if you had no idea what the character/class would be? I'm just trying to get a general feel for this, so feel free to respond with, "Well this is a stupid situation, but I believe that X is better because of all of these answers." I believe casting/mental stats (int, wis, cha or whatever) are superior to physical stats. My friends disagrees and believes the Dungeon Master's Guide supports his side, that physical stats are superior (and possibly explains the reasoning behind why half-orcs were shafted). What do you think?
enygmatic_me 03-05-07, 03:36 AM	There are a few factors to consider when it comes to ability scores, the big one being the class, which you have asked us to ignore. That leave us figuring the importance an ability on it's function alone. Strength - Adds to Attack and Damage as well as carrying capacity. This is only important though if your character deals with melee or enjoys being a draft animal. Dexterity - Adds to ranged attacks, Reflex saves, and AC primarily. Well ranged attacks are only important if you plan on using them (class dependent), but everyone enjoys a boost to their reflex saves and AC. Constitution - More HP and a boost to fort save, everyone benefits here but it is most important to those who are going to be more regularly in harms way. Intelligence - Skills, Skills, and more Skills. Only useful if you care about skills, then you are most likely a rogue or a fighter who desperately plans on making up for the god awful lack of the spot and listen skill. Wisdom - This really only applies to Saves and Divine stuff. If it wasn't for the Willpower Save this would probably be a bigger dump ability then Charisma. Charisma - Vanity, turn checks, and some casting ability. This is pretty much the "yeah, I'll put a 10 in it" ability score unless you are a divine caster, a bard, a sorcerer, or just enjoy playing the good looking one in the group. So, with that all said my opinion is most likely Dexterity because every class enjoys a good boost to AC. Still, ability selection without knowing class is difficult at best.
Perseus_Stoned 03-05-07, 03:39 AM	Fair enough, I suppose I should clarify better (although how you responded was very useful). How would you compare the usefullness of Strength, for a melee class, to a caster-stat for a caster class? Fighter's Strength vs. a Wizard's Intelligence Not necessarily which class is better, but which stat helps the class out more?
enygmatic_me 03-05-07, 03:50 AM	In that case, I might have to say Wisdom for Divine Caster types. It not only grants bonus spells, but increases Willpower saves which become more common and more dangerous as levels get higher.
gullas 03-05-07, 10:01 AM	it really depents on the class/classes wich you've taken:) For example Cha is a dump stat for barbarian:tongue: wis isn't that great for figthers Sorceres do not need much strength Wis is HIGLY important for divine casters:bow: Mele-based fighters need strength:fight!: and so on:)
boggler65 03-05-07, 10:03 AM	I think it depends more on the stlye of game that you are playing rather than anything else, since your class is going to be influenced heavily by what situations you expect to encounter most often and what you hope to excel at. In a game where the primary focus is combat Strength is the most important, since you want to be able to deal more damage than the other guy and to deal it more quickly because you hit more often. Thus in 3.5 which is largely centered on the low fantasy conan the barbarian type of game strength is most important... In a so called High fantasy game, where you focus on roleplaying more than or as much as fighting then Intelligence is the most important, since you must have skills to excel, and the number of skills you get is goverened by intelligence. Consider the type of game first, then the other party members niches, then decide which is important to you. A brutish fighter isn't going to work well in a game of courtly intrigue, and refined courtly spy with no combat skill will fail in a sword and sorcery slasher.
AMGriffin 03-05-07, 10:26 AM	Strength is not the most important stat. Just telling you that right now OP. No matter what people say it isn't. Now moving onto the question at hand... I'll just talk about the classes and the ability scores that are useful to them. Barbarian- Barbarians need high strength and consitution moreso then anything so they can hit harder and rage longer. A good dexterity score helps too considering barbarians wear light or medium armor usually. They can almost make use of a high wisdom score, if only for the will saves and lots of their class skills have wisdom as the base stat. They don't need a high intelligence since they aren't usually the skill monkey types, and charisma is useless to them. Bards- Bards need high intelligence for the skill points and high charisma especially as it helps them in casting spells and performing. They can also make use of high dexterity as they typically aren't the heavy armor type. Overall though, bards are pretty versitaile and there isn't really a single skill (say for maybe WIS) that cannot be of use to them. Clerics- Wisdom, that's the big one as it helps with their casting. They also benefit from high charisma as it aids them in turning the undead. Aside from those two clerics can come in a wide variety of builds with no real ability being unimportant to them. (say for potentially intelligence.) Druid- See above, but with less emphasis on charisma and more emphasis on dexterity. Fighter- Fighters suck, just getting that out there for ya. That said, fighters can be virtually any build ranging from lightweight archer to heavy plate-armor wearing tank. Regardless all fighters make use of high strength and constitution scores, but lighter fighters will find dexterity to be their primary stat. A good intelligence score helps fighters gain access to the combat expertise chain of feats. Wisdom isn't bad for the will saves, and charisma is the ultra dump-stat. Monk- Monks make use of every stat say for charisma. They don't necessarily require high intelligence however. Paladin - Strength is a big one, as the paladin serves as a melee combatant. Lots of the paladin's special abilities rely on their charisma modifer, and their lesser spellcasting is wisdom determined. Dexterity isn't that important to paladins as they usually are wearing heavy armor. Ranger - Rangers make use of every single ability for the most part. Strength and Dexterity being the most important, rangers often lightweight melee combatants or long distance archers. Constitution never hurts, wisdom is for their spellcasting, and intelligence helps rangers too, they're a skill-orientated class. Rogue- Dexterity and intelligence are the big ones. Rogues wear very little armor, need good dexterity for lots of their skills, and being the ultimate skill monkey of the core classes they need lots of skill points. Charisma also serves a lesser role rogues who need to be crafty spies or when they're using magical devices. Rogues don't really need anything else, but every little bit helps. Sorcerer- Charisma is the most important by far, as it effects their casting abilities. A good constitution will help, casters are hurting for HP. They have no real use for strength. Wizard- Same as the sorcerer but with emphasis on Intelligence not Charisma.
oracle71 03-05-07, 02:03 PM	To me, the most important ability score in general is constitution. The reason is simple: even if it isn't the highest priority score for a particular class, every character, regardless of what their function in the party is will benefit from a high Con score. There is not a single class or character that can't use extra HP and a higher Fortitude save. Only slightly behind it is Dexterity, because again, it can help anyone, regardless of what their class or function in the party is. A fighter or cleric with a low dex can partially make up for it with heavy armor, but they will still suffer on reflex saves, ranged attacks, and movement. Every other ability's overall usefulness greatly depends on the class and character concept, but Con and Dex are the only abilities that whose benefits are independant of class.
WinterPsionic 03-05-07, 02:15 PM	Regardless of class there are 3 main stats as far as I'm concerned... 1. Dexterity - this accounts a nice bonus to AC, is the key base for the save to avoind damage and regardless of class can help with attack rolls(ex. Finesse Attack or Ranged(Touch)). 2. Wisdom - Typically a "dump" stat for most class, but with the addition of a Monk's Belt can be of great help, it's also the key stat to help avoid effects that would put you or your party at each other's throats. 3. Constitution - Ok so I've tried playing a Spellcaster with this dumped and let me tell ya, bein lvl 12 and getting picked off by a single shot from an ECL 14 Ogre sucks, not only does it increase your HP and your ability to shrug off poisons and diseases it can help you charge through the night. Obviously Strength, Intelligence and Charisma all have their own place, I just don't seem them as a necessary "universal" stat.
RobbyPants 03-05-07, 02:23 PM	So, with that all said my opinion is most likely Dexterity because every class enjoys a good boost to AC. Still, ability selection without knowing class is difficult at best. Yeah, being asked to ignore the class really throws a wrench into the works. I also would have chosen Dexterity for the same reasons. I'd say that it helps more classes more often than any other ability score. About the only classes that can truely afford to dump it are the strong, heavy-armored melee tanks, and even still, the get a good benifit from it.
obrysii 03-05-07, 02:27 PM	Without knowing what class, Con score is the most valueable score, as every class benefits from a high Con score (some more than others, though).
WinterPsionic 03-05-07, 03:45 PM	Yeah, being asked to ignore the class really throws a wrench into the works. I also would have chosen Dexterity for the same reasons. I'd say that it helps more classes more often than any other ability score. About the only classes that can truely afford to dump it are the strong, heavy-armored melee tanks, and even still, the get a good benifit from it. ...Only if they invest in an armor with a good max dex, most of the true "Heavy" tank I've seen have a Max Dex of no more then 1.(And 12 is still pretty dumpy for some builds/play styles)
SilverFoxKnows 03-05-07, 05:07 PM	I always shake my head when I read about Wisdom being a dump stat. Will saves are important. If you botch a Reflex, you take some extra damage. If you botch a Will save you're often out of the fight. If you're lucky you succumb to a fear effect and run away for a few rounds. At worst you're the BBEG's new puppet. The martial classes have a low Will save anyway. Use Wisdom as a dump stat and you're asking for trouble.
The_Shaman 03-05-07, 05:16 PM	A note, if I may: so far I don't see anyone who's mentioned dexterity's role in determining initiative. Sure, it's a relatively minor one, but it matters both at lower and at higher levels. It's especially important for: - ninjas: sudden strike works pretty much only against flat-footed opponents. Hence, if you go first, you can pump in a few SS dice that you otherwise would need to get invisible for. It's also very important for rogues - catching your opponent flat-footed is important here too,but rogues can also get their extra damage if they flank. As far as rogues are concerned, an unprepared foe is often a dead one. - casters: Unless both parties are obscenely buffed, the first one to get off a spell or ready one gets a big advantage. This is useful on lower levels, when a fireball can (with some luck) get the opposing mage down, but the usefulness of starting the combat with a few summons near the vulnerable enemies or as a meat shield can't be underestimated. Then we get to time stop, and then going first really starts to be valuable. Edit: Speaking of "Bast", does anyone know the stats for Bast/Sharess? I don't think she was detailed in Faiths and Pantheons, even though she's not only a Mulhorandi Power now.
WinterPsionic 03-05-07, 05:49 PM	A note, if I may: so far I don't see anyone who's mentioned dexterity's role in determining initiative. Sure, it's a relatively minor one, but it matters both at lower and at higher levels. It's especially important for: - ninjas: sudden strike works pretty much only against flat-footed opponents. Hence, if you go first, you can pump in a few SS dice that you otherwise would need to get invisible for. It's also very important for rogues - catching your opponent flat-footed is important here too,but rogues can also get their extra damage if they flank. As far as rogues are concerned, an unprepared foe is often a dead one. - casters: Unless both parties are obscenely buffed, the first one to get off a spell or ready one gets a big advantage. This is useful on lower levels, when a fireball can (with some luck) get the opposing mage down, but the usefulness of starting the combat with a few summons near the vulnerable enemies or as a meat shield can't be underestimated. Then we get to time stop, and then going first really starts to be valuable. Edit: Speaking of "Bast", does anyone know the stats for Bast/Sharess? I don't think she was detailed in Faiths and Pantheons, even though she's not only a Mulhorandi Power now. >.< opps ya I forgot that one, I typically don't like being first up to bat though so I never really think about it.
DaidojiTaidoru 03-05-07, 06:17 PM	From most useful to least useful (ignoring classes of course) #1 Constitution: One day, you will get hit. Some lucky punk is going to roll a 20. And you will take damage. This is the stat that determines if that 20 means you start rolling up a new character. Everyone wants HP, some need less, but everyone wants more. Add in bonuses to Fort saves (the ones that you either Make or Die) and you've got the best stat in the game. #2 Wisdom: Purely for increasing Will saves. But Will saves are incredibly important. Fail a Fort save and you'll need the Cleric to res you. Fail a will save and you might end up killing the cleric before being coup de graced by your new "friends." Nothing leads to TPK faster then spliting the party, and failed Will saves split the party at the worst possible time. # 2.5 Dexterity: AC is meh. You've got items, spells, or armor to help out there. Reflex saves are nothing to scoff at, but not nearly as important as Will or Fort. But Dex fights with Wisdom for #2 because of it's boost to initiative. That's always a good thing. Acting first is frequently the difference between life and death. #4 Intelligence: Skills are good. Even if you aren't the skill monkey there are just skills you want ranks in (Ride, Ballance, Spot or Listen). And because skills are loosely defined you can use them for thousands of odd effects, regardless of class. #5 Charisma: Are you playing a class that uses Charisma for something? If so it's usually great. If not, leave it at 10. The only reason it ranks #5 is because you need to keep it at 10 in order to not randomly annoy strangers ( Diplomacy < 1 effects ). #6 Strength: Much like Charisma Strength is only useful if you're playing a class that needs Strength. Now there are admittedly more classes that need strength, but the benifits they get from high strength are usually less then the benifits other classes get from charisma (casting stats > strength bonuses) and there's no real serious penalty for leaving strength sitting at 8 for a casting type.