Best Humanoid Forms? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Best Humanoid Forms? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
SpoonyBard
04-12-07, 08:35 PM I play an Incubus, and I've been trying to find the most effective Humanoid forms for him to take for different purposes. So far, for combat, the best seems to be the Tren, and for travel, it seems to be the Avariel.

Change Shape gives natural weapons, extraordinary attacks, and movement... And that's about it.

So, the basic questions are...

-Is there a more effctive form for combat than the Tren (2 claws at 1d4, a bite at 1d6, and multiattack)?
-Is there a better flier than the Avariel (fly 50 average, capable of flying with a medium or heavy load)?
-What's my best form in water?
-Burrow? Swim? Is there some other humanoid I can look into?

Along similar lines, I've got a buddy who uses Alter Self religiously in the same party, so is there anything he should need to look into?

All books by Wizards are permitted. Dragon Magazine is not, because none of us get it.
obrysii
04-12-07, 08:57 PM Where is the Tren from?

Your best form in water is likely Merfolk, although since you don't acquire special qualities you'll drown underwater.
SpoonyBard
04-12-07, 09:34 PM Tren is in Serpent Kingdoms. It's stupid good. Like... +8 natural armor and 4 HD (so you can Alter self for it) stupid good.
TheCarrionCrawler
04-12-07, 09:51 PM Tren is a great form, here are a few more to consider:

bugbear
crucian
dark stalker
flind
phaerlock
varag
duergar
skulk
sea-kin
underfolk
SpoonyBard
04-12-07, 10:00 PM Bugbear is... completely and utterly useless. It's +3 natural armor with Alter self, and no better than a human with Change Shape.

Crucian is WORSE than human with Change Shape and strictly worse than Tren with alter self.

Dark Stalker... That's the thing that gives +3d6 sneak attack but nothing else, right? I've used that a few times.

Flind gives nothing, save +2 natural armor which, once again, not with alter self.

I'm unfamiliar with Phaerlock, Varag, Skulk, Sea-Kin, and Underfolk.
snakeman830
04-12-07, 10:23 PM For water, i'd say go Lizardfolk. Sure, you don't get their hold breath, but you still get a decent natural armor (+5), natural attacks, and a good swim speed.
SpoonyBard
04-12-07, 10:28 PM For water, i'd say go Lizardfolk. Sure, you don't get their hold breath, but you still get a decent natural armor (+5), natural attacks, and a swim speed equal to that of merfolk.

Oh, yeah, Tren has Swim 40 and can breath underwater (Which you don't get with change self, but you don't get hold breath with change self, either)

Tren. Serpent Kingdoms. Page 87. It's GOOD. Is there anything better? ANd what's my best thing if I want to FLY? Tren can't fly.
snakeman830
04-12-07, 10:31 PM I've never seen the Tren, so I plead ignorance.

I think Raptorals are the only humanoids that can fly without the use of magic. (I could be wrong, but that's what I've seen).

Now, if this could be expanded into monsterous humanoids...
SpoonyBard
04-12-07, 10:34 PM I've never seen the Tren, so I plead ignorance.

I think Raptorals are the only humanoids that can fly without the use of magic. (I could be wrong, but that's what I've seen).

Now, if this could be expanded into monsterous humanoids...

Avariel. Races of Faerun. **Mentioned this in first post**
snakeman830
04-12-07, 10:36 PM Misread. Sorry!

Ok, so you've got two. I think that's it.
TheCarrionCrawler
04-13-07, 12:03 AM We're just trying to help, no need to be so rude.
Borris
04-13-07, 12:58 AM All books by Wizard are permitted? Then take a look at the Bakemono Goblin from Oriental Adventures.

It's small, which means you get a +1 bonus on attack rolls and AC, but it still has a speed of 30 feet. Best of all, you get a bite for 1d8 and two secondary claws for 1d6. And with Alter Self, you get an additionnal +6 natural armor.

In the water, if all you want is to travel fast, forget the merfolk and take the Locathah. It has a swim speed of 60 ft. while the merfolk only has 50.
SpoonyBard
04-13-07, 01:04 AM Ooh, slightly more damage than the Tren and +1 AC... But doesn't grant Multiattack... I'll keep it in mind. Thanks!
Borris
04-13-07, 01:22 AM Does Change Shape really gives access to bonus feats? From what I understand, it only covers the natural weapons, movement modes, and extraordinary special attacks of teh new form. At least, that's what I get from reading the Monster Manual errata.
SpoonyBard
04-13-07, 01:35 AM Does Change Shape really gives access to bonus feats? From what I understand, it only covers the natural weapons, movement modes, and extraordinary special attacks of teh new form. At least, that's what I get from reading the Monster Manual errata.

They way I understand it, Feats are considered extraordinary abilities, so you get racial bonus feats IF AND ONLY IF they apply to the attack form or movmeent form. For example, turning into a cat through almost any means gets you Weapon Finesse. but turning into a Dog doesn't get you Track (Because it's not an attack form or movement)
DEMONisbest
04-13-07, 06:19 AM Wow, now I can close my Half-Doppelganger thread, cus that thread was about the same thing - best things to alter-self into :)
Tren is even better than Troglodyte, which i was planning to recommend (beats him by +2 natural armor and bite of 1d6 over 1d4). Seems like best for combat and also gives swim speed.
For flight, your best bet would be Avariel, becouse I believe that Raptorans suck, but I thought that Incubus has wings of his own.
Cant help you with other movements (burrow, climb), nor other suggestions, as I believe these are the best. Or maybe consider Halfling, they have some nice racial bonuses you get when altered to them.
Archangel_Tyrael
04-13-07, 06:38 AM Earth Mephling from the Planer Handbook (pg. 10) gives Burrow 10'. It's a Humanoid with the Extraplanar subtype (I don't know if that matters).

Forestkith Goblin out of MM3 (pg. 64) gives you Climb 20'.
Jungle Goblin out of UA (pg. 14) also gives you Climb 20'.

There's a bunch of Monstrous Humanoids with those abilities, but precious few straight up plain Humanoids.
SpoonyBard
04-13-07, 10:47 AM For flight, your best bet would be Avariel, becouse I believe that Raptorans suck, but I thought that Incubus has wings of his own.
Cant help you with other movements (burrow, climb), nor other suggestions, as I believe these are the best. Or maybe consider Halfling, they have some nice racial bonuses you get when altered to them.

Well, Incubi DO get a fly speed. But while Incubi and Avariel both have fly 50 (average), Avariel can fly with a medium load or in medium armor, wheras Incubi can only do so with a light load and light armor. Also, for the purposes of pople not knowing I'm a demon when hanging around town, Avariel's preferable.

Okay, goblins with climb speeds... That might prove necesarry at some point (though as a general rule, fly>climb.)

Burrow, though... Thanks for that! I have no idea why I'd ever need to burrow, but hey,it's always best to know that I CAN.
Archangel_Tyrael
04-14-07, 06:52 AM Burrow, though... Thanks for that! I have no idea why I'd ever need to burrow, but hey,it's always best to know that I CAN.

Perfect way to escape from trouble. :D

Can anyone think of (or find) any others? I'd be interested to know if I missed any.
obrysii
04-14-07, 08:22 AM Avariel can fly with a medium load or in medium armor, wheras Incubi can only do so with a light load and light armor.

Unless Incubi specifically state an exception, all creatures with a Fly speed can fly in Medium armor unless, of course, the weight of the armor puts them into medium load.

To quote the SRD:

(Note that medium armor does not necessarily constitute a medium load.)
SpoonyBard
04-14-07, 12:35 PM Unless Incubi specifically state an exception, all creatures with a Fly speed can fly in Medium armor unless, of course, the weight of the armor puts them into medium load.

To quote the SRD:

According to the feat Reinforced wings, "Flying creatures can't fly in medium or heavy armor." What does reinforced wings do? Lets you fly in medium armor.

I'm fairly crtain there wouldn't be a feat for it if you could fly in medium armor without.

Not that the medium armor thing matters, as Incubi don't have ANY armor proficiency (I use MW studded leather, because it's more badass than mithral.) so I couldn't use medium armor anyway... But Mdium LOAD, Avariel can carry.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
SpoonyBard 04-12-07, 08:35 PM	I play an Incubus, and I've been trying to find the most effective Humanoid forms for him to take for different purposes. So far, for combat, the best seems to be the Tren, and for travel, it seems to be the Avariel. Change Shape gives natural weapons, extraordinary attacks, and movement... And that's about it. So, the basic questions are... -Is there a more effctive form for combat than the Tren (2 claws at 1d4, a bite at 1d6, and multiattack)? -Is there a better flier than the Avariel (fly 50 average, capable of flying with a medium or heavy load)? -What's my best form in water? -Burrow? Swim? Is there some other humanoid I can look into? Along similar lines, I've got a buddy who uses Alter Self religiously in the same party, so is there anything he should need to look into? All books by Wizards are permitted. Dragon Magazine is not, because none of us get it.
obrysii 04-12-07, 08:57 PM	Where is the Tren from? Your best form in water is likely Merfolk, although since you don't acquire special qualities you'll drown underwater.
SpoonyBard 04-12-07, 09:34 PM	Tren is in Serpent Kingdoms. It's stupid good. Like... +8 natural armor and 4 HD (so you can Alter self for it) stupid good.
TheCarrionCrawler 04-12-07, 09:51 PM	Tren is a great form, here are a few more to consider: bugbear crucian dark stalker flind phaerlock varag duergar skulk sea-kin underfolk
SpoonyBard 04-12-07, 10:00 PM	Bugbear is... completely and utterly useless. It's +3 natural armor with Alter self, and no better than a human with Change Shape. Crucian is WORSE than human with Change Shape and strictly worse than Tren with alter self. Dark Stalker... That's the thing that gives +3d6 sneak attack but nothing else, right? I've used that a few times. Flind gives nothing, save +2 natural armor which, once again, not with alter self. I'm unfamiliar with Phaerlock, Varag, Skulk, Sea-Kin, and Underfolk.
snakeman830 04-12-07, 10:23 PM	For water, i'd say go Lizardfolk. Sure, you don't get their hold breath, but you still get a decent natural armor (+5), natural attacks, and a good swim speed.
SpoonyBard 04-12-07, 10:28 PM	For water, i'd say go Lizardfolk. Sure, you don't get their hold breath, but you still get a decent natural armor (+5), natural attacks, and a swim speed equal to that of merfolk. Oh, yeah, Tren has Swim 40 and can breath underwater (Which you don't get with change self, but you don't get hold breath with change self, either) Tren. Serpent Kingdoms. Page 87. It's GOOD. Is there anything better? ANd what's my best thing if I want to FLY? Tren can't fly.
snakeman830 04-12-07, 10:31 PM	I've never seen the Tren, so I plead ignorance. I think Raptorals are the only humanoids that can fly without the use of magic. (I could be wrong, but that's what I've seen). Now, if this could be expanded into monsterous humanoids...
SpoonyBard 04-12-07, 10:34 PM	I've never seen the Tren, so I plead ignorance. I think Raptorals are the only humanoids that can fly without the use of magic. (I could be wrong, but that's what I've seen). Now, if this could be expanded into monsterous humanoids... Avariel. Races of Faerun. Mentioned this in first post
snakeman830 04-12-07, 10:36 PM	Misread. Sorry! Ok, so you've got two. I think that's it.
TheCarrionCrawler 04-13-07, 12:03 AM	We're just trying to help, no need to be so rude.
Borris 04-13-07, 12:58 AM	All books by Wizard are permitted? Then take a look at the Bakemono Goblin from Oriental Adventures. It's small, which means you get a +1 bonus on attack rolls and AC, but it still has a speed of 30 feet. Best of all, you get a bite for 1d8 and two secondary claws for 1d6. And with Alter Self, you get an additionnal +6 natural armor. In the water, if all you want is to travel fast, forget the merfolk and take the Locathah. It has a swim speed of 60 ft. while the merfolk only has 50.
SpoonyBard 04-13-07, 01:04 AM	Ooh, slightly more damage than the Tren and +1 AC... But doesn't grant Multiattack... I'll keep it in mind. Thanks!
Borris 04-13-07, 01:22 AM	Does Change Shape really gives access to bonus feats? From what I understand, it only covers the natural weapons, movement modes, and extraordinary special attacks of teh new form. At least, that's what I get from reading the Monster Manual errata.
SpoonyBard 04-13-07, 01:35 AM	Does Change Shape really gives access to bonus feats? From what I understand, it only covers the natural weapons, movement modes, and extraordinary special attacks of teh new form. At least, that's what I get from reading the Monster Manual errata. They way I understand it, Feats are considered extraordinary abilities, so you get racial bonus feats IF AND ONLY IF they apply to the attack form or movmeent form. For example, turning into a cat through almost any means gets you Weapon Finesse. but turning into a Dog doesn't get you Track (Because it's not an attack form or movement)
DEMONisbest 04-13-07, 06:19 AM	Wow, now I can close my Half-Doppelganger thread, cus that thread was about the same thing - best things to alter-self into :) Tren is even better than Troglodyte, which i was planning to recommend (beats him by +2 natural armor and bite of 1d6 over 1d4). Seems like best for combat and also gives swim speed. For flight, your best bet would be Avariel, becouse I believe that Raptorans suck, but I thought that Incubus has wings of his own. Cant help you with other movements (burrow, climb), nor other suggestions, as I believe these are the best. Or maybe consider Halfling, they have some nice racial bonuses you get when altered to them.
Archangel_Tyrael 04-13-07, 06:38 AM	Earth Mephling from the Planer Handbook (pg. 10) gives Burrow 10'. It's a Humanoid with the Extraplanar subtype (I don't know if that matters). Forestkith Goblin out of MM3 (pg. 64) gives you Climb 20'. Jungle Goblin out of UA (pg. 14) also gives you Climb 20'. There's a bunch of Monstrous Humanoids with those abilities, but precious few straight up plain Humanoids.
SpoonyBard 04-13-07, 10:47 AM	For flight, your best bet would be Avariel, becouse I believe that Raptorans suck, but I thought that Incubus has wings of his own. Cant help you with other movements (burrow, climb), nor other suggestions, as I believe these are the best. Or maybe consider Halfling, they have some nice racial bonuses you get when altered to them. Well, Incubi DO get a fly speed. But while Incubi and Avariel both have fly 50 (average), Avariel can fly with a medium load or in medium armor, wheras Incubi can only do so with a light load and light armor. Also, for the purposes of pople not knowing I'm a demon when hanging around town, Avariel's preferable. Okay, goblins with climb speeds... That might prove necesarry at some point (though as a general rule, fly>climb.) Burrow, though... Thanks for that! I have no idea why I'd ever need to burrow, but hey,it's always best to know that I CAN.
Archangel_Tyrael 04-14-07, 06:52 AM	Burrow, though... Thanks for that! I have no idea why I'd ever need to burrow, but hey,it's always best to know that I CAN. Perfect way to escape from trouble. :D Can anyone think of (or find) any others? I'd be interested to know if I missed any.
obrysii 04-14-07, 08:22 AM	Avariel can fly with a medium load or in medium armor, wheras Incubi can only do so with a light load and light armor. Unless Incubi specifically state an exception, all creatures with a Fly speed can fly in Medium armor unless, of course, the weight of the armor puts them into medium load. To quote the SRD: (Note that medium armor does not necessarily constitute a medium load.)
SpoonyBard 04-14-07, 12:35 PM	Unless Incubi specifically state an exception, all creatures with a Fly speed can fly in Medium armor unless, of course, the weight of the armor puts them into medium load. To quote the SRD: According to the feat Reinforced wings, "Flying creatures can't fly in medium or heavy armor." What does reinforced wings do? Lets you fly in medium armor. I'm fairly crtain there wouldn't be a feat for it if you could fly in medium armor without. Not that the medium armor thing matters, as Incubi don't have ANY armor proficiency (I use MW studded leather, because it's more badass than mithral.) so I couldn't use medium armor anyway... But Mdium LOAD, Avariel can carry.