Best LA +0 / LA +1 Race for a Rogue? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Best LA +0 / LA +1 Race for a Rogue? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Argo
04-15-07, 10:49 PM Just wanted to know what everyone thinks the best race for a Rogue would be that either has LA 0 or LA +1.

So, what do you say? Don't just sit there, post your opinion.
Return of the Flumph
04-15-07, 10:52 PM Goblin.
Kintara
04-15-07, 11:18 PM At LA +1, Catfolk are pretty good.

Humans are always nice. Normal and Strongheart Halflings. Kenku from MMIII are pretty nice. Whisper Gnomes (Races of Stone) are a very popular choice (probably the best one, mechanically).

Half-Orcs are cool because they'll never expect it. ;)
DarkRhystar
04-15-07, 11:24 PM Lloth-touched template (Monster Manual IV).

+6 Strength is always good. At worst, the Rogue can use Strength as a dump stat and put those points elsewhere.
+6 Constitution is wonderful when you have a d6 Hit Die and expect to be anywhere near melee.
+4 racial bonus to Hide/Move Silently. Um, Rogue? Hello?
Immunity to Fear. What? I can take the Craven feat with no downside? Pure awesome.

If necessary re-flavor it, but it's a very powerful LA +1 template.
Kintara
04-15-07, 11:26 PM Lloth-touched template (Monster Manual IV).

+6 Strength is always good. At worst, the Rogue can use Strength as a dump stat and put those points elsewhere.
+6 Constitution is wonderful when you have a d6 Hit Die and expect to be anywhere near melee.
+4 racial bonus to Hide/Move Silently. Um, Rogue? Hello?
Immunity to Fear. What? I can take the Craven feat with no downside? Pure awesome.

If necessary re-flavor it, but it's a very powerful LA +1 template.I don't have that book, but are you sure you're reading that right? Two +6 stat bonuses? What's the catch?
Pangeon
04-15-07, 11:29 PM I don't have that book, but are you sure you're reading that right? Two +6 stat bonuses? What's the catch?

You have to be chaotic evil.
DarkRhystar
04-15-07, 11:32 PM I don't have that book, but are you sure you're reading that right? Two +6 stat bonuses? What's the catch?

Chaotic Evil alignment required (hence possible re-flavoring) and the +1 LA.

Out of the great many templates I've seen, this is one of them that one can honestly say is a great deal for the price.
Kintara
04-15-07, 11:39 PM You have to be chaotic evil.

Oh.

(And they have that halfling girl as an avatar now? I use a custom icon like that as my Windows XP icon. ;))

Edit: Zonk! :D
Pangeon
04-16-07, 12:03 AM (And they have that halfling girl as an avatar now? I use a custom icon like that as my Windows XP icon. ;))

Edit: Zonk! :D

Yeah, all the cool kids are using it. ;)
Tytalus
04-16-07, 12:32 AM Immunity to Fear. What? I can take the Craven feat with no downside? Pure awesome.

You can't take Craven if you are immune to fear.

On topic: Tiefling and Lesser Tiefling [Player's Guide to Faerun] are decent choices.
DarkRhystar
04-16-07, 01:06 AM You can't take Craven if you are immune to fear.

Really? It's been a long time since I borrowed my friend's copy of Champions of Ruin, but I suppose that does make sense. Maybe I'll have to have another look in the near future.
SpoonyBard
04-16-07, 02:36 AM Dwarf. Dwarf is better than everything.

...Well, +2 Con is good, and Darkvision's almost a necessity for a rogue. I've known a few great dwarvish rogues.
Shadowhowler
04-16-07, 08:15 AM Theres really no one way to make a Rogue... the class is wide open to be made in many differant directions. Also, best in what way?

That being said... as one poster above mentioned, you really cant beat the Whispergnome for a statistic 'general' rogue.

Dark & low light visition, +2 to con & Dex, bounes to hide and move silently, small size but still has 30 move? Mage hand, silence as spell like abilities? All for no LA?

Yeah... some fanboy at wizards got a rogue errection and created the Whispergnome... and it inhabits a VERY strange spot between LA 0 and LA +1, much like a Warforged does.
j3st3r
04-16-07, 09:23 AM At LA +1, Catfolk are pretty good..

..Kenku from MMIII are pretty nice. Whisper Gnomes (Races of Stone) are a very popular choice (probably the best one, mechanically).
For a rogue, I'd choose any of these since I've never played any of them, they all have good stats & background for a rogue and they look cool :cool: (catfolk seems a bit powerful for mere +1 LA).

Also lizardfolk, poisondusk (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/mmiii_gallery/83019.jpg) (MMIII) is a good candidate for a rogue.
AMGriffin
04-16-07, 09:28 AM The whisper gnome is the best Rogue ever.

Of course it's hideously broken, and renders gnomes, halflings, and goblins USELESS.
YabaTheWhat
04-16-07, 11:30 AM If you're working at higher levels (level 6+), the pixie (MM1) rogue makes an obsurdly overpowered combination. Improved invisibility, flight, numerous tactical spell-like abilities, significant ability score boosts, spell resistance, and damage reduction, all for LA+4.

At low levels, the whisper gnome (RoS) has all the advantages of a LA+1 race, and they're all taylored towards being a sneak thief, yet they're LA+0 by RAW. Definitely a good powergamer race if you're going for a sneak thief.

My personal favorite is the changeling (MM3/Eberron). Though they're not powerhouses, they're versatile and make great espionage rogues. For a combat campaign, they can take four levels in the Warshaper prestige class as soon as they meet the BAB prerequisite.
Jaxgaret
04-16-07, 11:32 AM Dark Creature Template from ToM.

Hide in Plain Sight, Darkvision, Resistance to Cold 10, Superior Low-Light, +8 hide, +6 move silently, +10 ft. speed.
And of course the (Extraplanar) subtype.

All for LA +1.

A Dark Creature Goblin has a 40 foot land speed and a +10 racial move silently bonus. Oh yeah.

Don't even ask your DM about a Dark Creature Whisper Gnome. You'll get a DMG upside your head toot sweet (or should anyway).
zook1shoe666
04-16-07, 01:56 PM the Tibbit from the Dragon Compendium vol. 1 is uber.... think of a halfling that can turn into a housecat at will. tiny grants nice Hide bonuses and the claw-claw-bite + sneak attack gets kind of ugly!
cpn_creepo
04-16-07, 02:23 PM Mongrelfolk, FTW!
YabaTheWhat
04-16-07, 02:34 PM Two more:

The Dvati (dragon compendium) make great rogues. Dvati can set up (and maintain) their own flanking positions in combat. Outside of combat, a Dvati can leave one body with the group, while the other scouts ahead. Just make sure they have high constitution, because they take a hit on HP.

Catfolk (RotW) also do well as rogues. Their high dexterity means bonuses to AC, ranged attacks, and many of the rogue's key skills. The natural armor doesn't hurt either, and faster movement helps them get into tactical positions during combat.

Both races are LA+1.
The_Shaman
04-16-07, 03:08 PM The shadowwalker template (UEast) is quite nice. You get a few decent abilities and HD-scalable spell-likes when you're in the shade, and an additional +2 dex -2 con for LA +1. Applied on a human, or a halfling (or a whisper gnome), that can be quite sweet, and can easily mimic a shadowdancer without taking a level in the class (and it's good if you want to go in the Shadowlord, which is a rather fun PrC)
Peregrine_Wolf
04-16-07, 04:02 PM Catfolk.
+4 Dex for your range, init. etc.....
+2 Cha for bluff and intimidate.....

If you take shot on the run, you can run close enough to sneak attack then run back to safety =p
Shadowhowler
04-17-07, 09:32 PM Mongrelfolk, FTW!

A very viable choice, one I Had forgoten.
Squirrelloid
04-17-07, 11:14 PM Darkvision is basically required for a rogue, therefore i have to choose Deep Halfling. Better than Dwarf, especially at my favorite rogue archetype, the 'potion' thrower. (Alchemists flasks, flasks of acid, etc...).
InsanePsychoRabbit
04-18-07, 07:37 AM I would suggest either Elf or Catfolk...Elf has +2 to Listen, Search, and Spot, which are essential skills for a rogue, and +2 Dex to boot - only drawback is -2 Con. Catfolk has a fast base land speed, +4 Dex, and +2 Listen and Move Silently, two other essential skills.
Orchomenos
04-18-07, 08:15 AM The Mineral Template (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e) (scroll down) from Underdark. For a +1 LA and -2 INT (yeah, it hurts on skills), you get +3 Natural Armor and DR 8/Adamantine. That means you can remain in melee against your flanked foe longer, and don't need to bother about AoO when getting this flanking position...

The Were-Rat template is not bad. It's probably better to go with the full +3 LA and the Inherited Template to not bother with Control Shape. Anyway, in hybrid form, he gets +6 DEX, +2 CON, +3 Natural Armor, DR10/Silver and a bite attack. Plus, he gets an alternate shape of a Small animal with a climb speed.
999dragonmaster999
04-18-07, 09:00 AM how do yall do the Quote thing were you put other peoples stuff in boxes I really need to know.
999dragonmaster999
04-18-07, 09:00 AM :Ddude do the right thing stack darck creature onto whisper gnome for a LA + 1 and make you DM cry when faced with your Ubber Gnome can we say Ubber yes we can :D :cool:
999dragonmaster999
04-18-07, 09:05 AM I personally know nothing about whisper gnome or darck creature template but if they can be combined just look at what was said to understang the Awesome brokeness of it

That being said... as one poster above mentioned, you really cant beat the Whispergnome for a statistic 'general' rogue.

Dark & low light visition, +2 to con & Dex, bounes to hide and move silently, small size but still has 30 move? Mage hand, silence as spell like abilities? All for no LA?
Dark Creature Template from ToM.

Hide in Plain Sight, Darkvision, Resistance to Cold 10, Superior Low-Light, +8 hide, +6 move silently, +10 ft. speed.
And of course the (Extraplanar) subtype.

All for LA +1
YabaTheWhat
04-18-07, 09:34 AM how do yall do the Quote thing were you put other peoples stuff in boxes I really need to know. Below each post is a button labeled QUOTE. Hit that button, and it will prepare the text for you.

As an alternative, you can build quote boxes yourself by beginning the quoted text as follows:
{QUOTE=Person'sName}Text Goes Here{/QUOTE}
Only replace { with [ and } with ].
Does that help?
Nargila
04-18-07, 03:14 PM If you really wanna be a bastard and avoid the LA, there is a Collar magic item that gives you the dark creature template for free. It costs 11,000 or so and you get the template for 10 minutes. Or for 22,000 you get it permanent as long as you have the collar.

Edit:The collar can be found in the Tome of Magic in the Shadow Magic section
CrawlingChaos
04-18-07, 04:20 PM The best rogue is a Half Orc with 20 in strenght and proficiency on great sword. Thats a really painful sneak attack.
Argo
04-18-07, 05:33 PM The best rogue is a Half Orc with 20 in strenght and proficiency on great sword. Thats a really painful sneak attack.

I had this Half-Orc Rogue.
Well, only 18 STR.
Barb 1/Rogue 2, carried a Greatsword.

He died VERY early on.

---
Also, the Whisper Gnome IS a darn good Rogue. I'm playing one right now.

Other options?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Argo 04-15-07, 10:49 PM	Just wanted to know what everyone thinks the best race for a Rogue would be that either has LA 0 or LA +1. So, what do you say? Don't just sit there, post your opinion.
Return of the Flumph 04-15-07, 10:52 PM	Goblin.
Kintara 04-15-07, 11:18 PM	At LA +1, Catfolk are pretty good. Humans are always nice. Normal and Strongheart Halflings. Kenku from MMIII are pretty nice. Whisper Gnomes (Races of Stone) are a very popular choice (probably the best one, mechanically). Half-Orcs are cool because they'll never expect it. ;)
DarkRhystar 04-15-07, 11:24 PM	Lloth-touched template (Monster Manual IV). +6 Strength is always good. At worst, the Rogue can use Strength as a dump stat and put those points elsewhere. +6 Constitution is wonderful when you have a d6 Hit Die and expect to be anywhere near melee. +4 racial bonus to Hide/Move Silently. Um, Rogue? Hello? Immunity to Fear. What? I can take the Craven feat with no downside? Pure awesome. If necessary re-flavor it, but it's a very powerful LA +1 template.
Kintara 04-15-07, 11:26 PM	Lloth-touched template (Monster Manual IV). +6 Strength is always good. At worst, the Rogue can use Strength as a dump stat and put those points elsewhere. +6 Constitution is wonderful when you have a d6 Hit Die and expect to be anywhere near melee. +4 racial bonus to Hide/Move Silently. Um, Rogue? Hello? Immunity to Fear. What? I can take the Craven feat with no downside? Pure awesome. If necessary re-flavor it, but it's a very powerful LA +1 template.I don't have that book, but are you sure you're reading that right? Two +6 stat bonuses? What's the catch?
Pangeon 04-15-07, 11:29 PM	I don't have that book, but are you sure you're reading that right? Two +6 stat bonuses? What's the catch? You have to be chaotic evil.
DarkRhystar 04-15-07, 11:32 PM	I don't have that book, but are you sure you're reading that right? Two +6 stat bonuses? What's the catch? Chaotic Evil alignment required (hence possible re-flavoring) and the +1 LA. Out of the great many templates I've seen, this is one of them that one can honestly say is a great deal for the price.
Kintara 04-15-07, 11:39 PM	You have to be chaotic evil. Oh. (And they have that halfling girl as an avatar now? I use a custom icon like that as my Windows XP icon. ;)) Edit: Zonk! :D
Pangeon 04-16-07, 12:03 AM	(And they have that halfling girl as an avatar now? I use a custom icon like that as my Windows XP icon. ;)) Edit: Zonk! :D Yeah, all the cool kids are using it. ;)
Tytalus 04-16-07, 12:32 AM	Immunity to Fear. What? I can take the Craven feat with no downside? Pure awesome. You can't take Craven if you are immune to fear. On topic: Tiefling and Lesser Tiefling [Player's Guide to Faerun] are decent choices.
DarkRhystar 04-16-07, 01:06 AM	You can't take Craven if you are immune to fear. Really? It's been a long time since I borrowed my friend's copy of Champions of Ruin, but I suppose that does make sense. Maybe I'll have to have another look in the near future.
SpoonyBard 04-16-07, 02:36 AM	Dwarf. Dwarf is better than everything. ...Well, +2 Con is good, and Darkvision's almost a necessity for a rogue. I've known a few great dwarvish rogues.
Shadowhowler 04-16-07, 08:15 AM	Theres really no one way to make a Rogue... the class is wide open to be made in many differant directions. Also, best in what way? That being said... as one poster above mentioned, you really cant beat the Whispergnome for a statistic 'general' rogue. Dark & low light visition, +2 to con & Dex, bounes to hide and move silently, small size but still has 30 move? Mage hand, silence as spell like abilities? All for no LA? Yeah... some fanboy at wizards got a rogue errection and created the Whispergnome... and it inhabits a VERY strange spot between LA 0 and LA +1, much like a Warforged does.
j3st3r 04-16-07, 09:23 AM	At LA +1, Catfolk are pretty good.. ..Kenku from MMIII are pretty nice. Whisper Gnomes (Races of Stone) are a very popular choice (probably the best one, mechanically). For a rogue, I'd choose any of these since I've never played any of them, they all have good stats & background for a rogue and they look cool :cool: (catfolk seems a bit powerful for mere +1 LA). Also lizardfolk, poisondusk (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/mmiii_gallery/83019.jpg) (MMIII) is a good candidate for a rogue.
AMGriffin 04-16-07, 09:28 AM	The whisper gnome is the best Rogue ever. Of course it's hideously broken, and renders gnomes, halflings, and goblins USELESS.
YabaTheWhat 04-16-07, 11:30 AM	If you're working at higher levels (level 6+), the pixie (MM1) rogue makes an obsurdly overpowered combination. Improved invisibility, flight, numerous tactical spell-like abilities, significant ability score boosts, spell resistance, and damage reduction, all for LA+4. At low levels, the whisper gnome (RoS) has all the advantages of a LA+1 race, and they're all taylored towards being a sneak thief, yet they're LA+0 by RAW. Definitely a good powergamer race if you're going for a sneak thief. My personal favorite is the changeling (MM3/Eberron). Though they're not powerhouses, they're versatile and make great espionage rogues. For a combat campaign, they can take four levels in the Warshaper prestige class as soon as they meet the BAB prerequisite.
Jaxgaret 04-16-07, 11:32 AM	Dark Creature Template from ToM. Hide in Plain Sight, Darkvision, Resistance to Cold 10, Superior Low-Light, +8 hide, +6 move silently, +10 ft. speed. And of course the (Extraplanar) subtype. All for LA +1. A Dark Creature Goblin has a 40 foot land speed and a +10 racial move silently bonus. Oh yeah. Don't even ask your DM about a Dark Creature Whisper Gnome. You'll get a DMG upside your head toot sweet (or should anyway).
zook1shoe666 04-16-07, 01:56 PM	the Tibbit from the Dragon Compendium vol. 1 is uber.... think of a halfling that can turn into a housecat at will. tiny grants nice Hide bonuses and the claw-claw-bite + sneak attack gets kind of ugly!
cpn_creepo 04-16-07, 02:23 PM	Mongrelfolk, FTW!
YabaTheWhat 04-16-07, 02:34 PM	Two more: The Dvati (dragon compendium) make great rogues. Dvati can set up (and maintain) their own flanking positions in combat. Outside of combat, a Dvati can leave one body with the group, while the other scouts ahead. Just make sure they have high constitution, because they take a hit on HP. Catfolk (RotW) also do well as rogues. Their high dexterity means bonuses to AC, ranged attacks, and many of the rogue's key skills. The natural armor doesn't hurt either, and faster movement helps them get into tactical positions during combat. Both races are LA+1.
The_Shaman 04-16-07, 03:08 PM	The shadowwalker template (UEast) is quite nice. You get a few decent abilities and HD-scalable spell-likes when you're in the shade, and an additional +2 dex -2 con for LA +1. Applied on a human, or a halfling (or a whisper gnome), that can be quite sweet, and can easily mimic a shadowdancer without taking a level in the class (and it's good if you want to go in the Shadowlord, which is a rather fun PrC)
Peregrine_Wolf 04-16-07, 04:02 PM	Catfolk. +4 Dex for your range, init. etc..... +2 Cha for bluff and intimidate..... If you take shot on the run, you can run close enough to sneak attack then run back to safety =p
Shadowhowler 04-17-07, 09:32 PM	Mongrelfolk, FTW! A very viable choice, one I Had forgoten.
Squirrelloid 04-17-07, 11:14 PM	Darkvision is basically required for a rogue, therefore i have to choose Deep Halfling. Better than Dwarf, especially at my favorite rogue archetype, the 'potion' thrower. (Alchemists flasks, flasks of acid, etc...).
InsanePsychoRabbit 04-18-07, 07:37 AM	I would suggest either Elf or Catfolk...Elf has +2 to Listen, Search, and Spot, which are essential skills for a rogue, and +2 Dex to boot - only drawback is -2 Con. Catfolk has a fast base land speed, +4 Dex, and +2 Listen and Move Silently, two other essential skills.
Orchomenos 04-18-07, 08:15 AM	The Mineral Template (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e) (scroll down) from Underdark. For a +1 LA and -2 INT (yeah, it hurts on skills), you get +3 Natural Armor and DR 8/Adamantine. That means you can remain in melee against your flanked foe longer, and don't need to bother about AoO when getting this flanking position... The Were-Rat template is not bad. It's probably better to go with the full +3 LA and the Inherited Template to not bother with Control Shape. Anyway, in hybrid form, he gets +6 DEX, +2 CON, +3 Natural Armor, DR10/Silver and a bite attack. Plus, he gets an alternate shape of a Small animal with a climb speed.
999dragonmaster999 04-18-07, 09:00 AM	how do yall do the Quote thing were you put other peoples stuff in boxes I really need to know.
999dragonmaster999 04-18-07, 09:00 AM	:Ddude do the right thing stack darck creature onto whisper gnome for a LA + 1 and make you DM cry when faced with your Ubber Gnome can we say Ubber yes we can :D :cool:
999dragonmaster999 04-18-07, 09:05 AM	I personally know nothing about whisper gnome or darck creature template but if they can be combined just look at what was said to understang the Awesome brokeness of it That being said... as one poster above mentioned, you really cant beat the Whispergnome for a statistic 'general' rogue. Dark & low light visition, +2 to con & Dex, bounes to hide and move silently, small size but still has 30 move? Mage hand, silence as spell like abilities? All for no LA? Dark Creature Template from ToM. Hide in Plain Sight, Darkvision, Resistance to Cold 10, Superior Low-Light, +8 hide, +6 move silently, +10 ft. speed. And of course the (Extraplanar) subtype. All for LA +1
YabaTheWhat 04-18-07, 09:34 AM	how do yall do the Quote thing were you put other peoples stuff in boxes I really need to know. Below each post is a button labeled QUOTE. Hit that button, and it will prepare the text for you. As an alternative, you can build quote boxes yourself by beginning the quoted text as follows: {QUOTE=Person'sName}Text Goes Here{/QUOTE} Only replace { with [ and } with ]. Does that help?
Nargila 04-18-07, 03:14 PM	If you really wanna be a bastard and avoid the LA, there is a Collar magic item that gives you the dark creature template for free. It costs 11,000 or so and you get the template for 10 minutes. Or for 22,000 you get it permanent as long as you have the collar. Edit:The collar can be found in the Tome of Magic in the Shadow Magic section
CrawlingChaos 04-18-07, 04:20 PM	The best rogue is a Half Orc with 20 in strenght and proficiency on great sword. Thats a really painful sneak attack.
Argo 04-18-07, 05:33 PM	The best rogue is a Half Orc with 20 in strenght and proficiency on great sword. Thats a really painful sneak attack. I had this Half-Orc Rogue. Well, only 18 STR. Barb 1/Rogue 2, carried a Greatsword. He died VERY early on. --- Also, the Whisper Gnome IS a darn good Rogue. I'm playing one right now. Other options?