Post/Author/DateTime	Post
captianhowdy 05-20-07, 03:22 PM	Black Mage race - as FF9 Medium Living Construct Stats -2 Str, -2 Con, +2 Cha, +2 Int - Black mages are generally physically weak but very intelligent. Speed 30ft Skills +2 Spellcraft - Black Mages were born of magic, so they can naturally influence it better than most. LA: +0 Darkvision 10ft Living Construct Traits: Black Mages have the Living Construct type except as following: They must still eat, breathe, and sleep, No immunity to sleep effects, fatigue, or exhaustion, and are affecting normally by being reduced to 0 hitpoints. However, they heal naturally and benefit from healing spells fully. Scorch: The touch of a Black Mage effects targets as the Burning Hands spell, caster level equal to the Black Mages HD (max 5d4), except as following: Range is 10 ft, and instead of a cone-shaped area, a single ball of fire shoots from the Black Mages hands. This can be used as a spell-like ability 3/day. Black mages are beings created form solidified Mist, a mass of disembodied life force. Many are mindless drones of war, but some, by accident or not, are given free will and sentience. Those who are sentient are very sensitive about their nature and their mindless brethren
fiendish_platypus 05-20-07, 03:46 PM	It should be -2 Cha, +2 Int Races never have an odd bonus or penalty to their ability scores.
Nathreet 05-20-07, 04:02 PM	Add -2 str, -2 con (do constructs have con?). That'll be enough to justify the int bonus and make it an LA +0 race, which you need to be a good caster. If that's not enough, tack on -2 dex. But given what you could do with age categories, I think the str, con and cha penalties are enough.
captianhowdy 05-20-07, 04:43 PM	Edits made. How about now?
fiendish_platypus 05-20-07, 04:54 PM	It looks pretty good, but I'm not sure about your Scorch ability, it looks awfully, well, good, especially at will. I'd say lower the CL to 1/2 the HD, make it something like 3/day or raise the LA.
Radijs 05-20-07, 05:06 PM	I wonder why are they being given the living construct type and then you remove the things that set living constructs apart from other races.
captianhowdy 05-20-07, 05:20 PM	I wonder why are they being given the living construct type and then you remove the things that set living constructs apart from other races. Its there because, while almost human, they are still technically constructs if you go by game flavor.
Rerecros 05-20-07, 05:25 PM	The black mages were aparently made in a half-arsed version the genomes were made, so they are likely closer to living things than to constructs. I would treat them as elementals because they are condensed magic, similar to summons.
captianhowdy 05-20-07, 05:35 PM	Ya know, that does make more since story wise to the real thing, ill fix it later
TheAnthroDM 05-21-07, 08:51 AM	It needs to be +2 Cha, -2 Something. Black mages are almost definately sorcerers and not wizards.
Rerecros 05-21-07, 09:51 PM	I would give your Black mage a 1st level Sorcerer substitution level that allows him to loose the familiar in exchange for something like the spell sword's "channel spell" ability, which would allow spells to be delivered as touch attacks through an ally's weapon.
Stado 05-22-07, 01:46 AM	It needs to be +2 Cha, -2 Something. Black mages are almost definately sorcerers and not wizards. This is true, but they're far more intelligent than they are charismatic. I wouldn't even give them a Charisma bonus at all (but not a penalty). Doesn't make any sense. I would give your Black mage a 1st level Sorcerer substitution level that allows him to loose the familiar in exchange for something like the spell sword's "channel spell" ability, which would allow spells to be delivered as touch attacks through an ally's weapon. What he said. Genius.
Rerecros 05-22-07, 02:17 AM	I would say that their attruibutes are all around pretty mediocre, they don't really deserve a bonus or penalty to any ability, except for the mindless ones.
TheAnthroDM 05-22-07, 02:23 AM	Okay, enough with the ability debate, I hope this will end it, let us review what we know about the Black Mage Dolls Str: They are weak (even had Vivi attack normally? Didn't think so) -2 Dex: They aren't particularly agile or particularly clumsy that I can tell, though they are slow. Con: They don't seem fragile to me Int: Nothing they are either smart or dumb Wis: They have a child-like concept of reality - 2 Cha: They certianly are good with magic(especially Evokations), don't tend to have trouble communicating +0 or +2 Suggested Revision: Black Mage Doll Medium Construct(Living Construct) -2 Str, -2 Wis, +2 Cha Black Mage Dolls are weak and tend to have poor reality perception, but they have potent magic abilities. Speed 20ft Black mages tend to be slow Focus(Ex): A Black Mage Doll can spend a full-round action to increase the caster level for the next evocation spell it casts by 2(this stacks with Spell Focus and similair effects) Channel Spell(Su): A Black Mage Doll can stores a spell in any weapon as if it were a spell-storing weapon Favored Class: Warmage LA: +0
Stado 05-22-07, 04:39 AM	Once again, they're far from charismatic. The description of black mages in FFIX warrants no Charisma bonus. Period. Vivi was the one with the child-like outlook, which would indeed warrant a Wisdom penalty, not all black mages. Or so I recall. If I'm incorrect, giving them the Wisdom penalty would make these guys quite underwhelming. Without going out of my way to stat these guys up, here's how I'd likely do them, 'though this is only one person's opinion: -2 Strength, +2 Intelligence. Construct (Living Construct Subtype). Medium: As Medium creatures, black mages have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. Black mage base land speed is 30 feet. Low-light Vision: Black mages can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. They retain the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions. Arcane Doll: Black mages receive a +2 racial bonus on Spellcraft checks and add Spellcraft to their list of class skills for any class they adopt. Spell Channel (Su): A black mage can store a spell in any weapon as though it were a spell-storing weapon. Automatic Languages: Common. Bonus Languages: None. Favored Class: Sorcerer. A multiclass black mage's sorcerer class does not count when determining whether he suffers an XP penalty for multiclassing (see Player's Handbook, Chapter 3: Classes, "Multiclass Characters," XP for Multiclass Characters).
Darth Sephiroth 05-22-07, 02:23 PM	Personally, I'd make them Size: Small with a PrC or feat that lets them be medium. All of the Black Mages save a few were small creatures.
feraltibbit 05-22-07, 02:26 PM	LIVING Constructs do have CON; ask the Warforged (Eberron).
Rerecros 05-22-07, 03:25 PM	Vivi was an early model, he was smaller with a longer expiry date. One can assume kuja built later models larger simply so they'd look more menacing and gave them shorter expiry dates so people would have to keep buying new ones, and if they betrayed him they'd eventualy run out of black mage soldiers. Here my attempt at stating them as it apearseveryone else is doing it. Black Mage (early model) Type: Elemental (native) Small: As a Small creature, a BM gains a +1 size bonus to Armor Class, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, and a +4 size bonus on Hide checks, but he uses smaller weapons than humans use, and his lifting and carrying limits are three-quarters of those of a Medium character. BM base land speed is 20 feet. Darkvision: BMs can see in the dark up to 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and dwarves can function just fine with no light at all. +2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison, sleep effects, paralysis, and stunning. Light Fortification (Ex):When a critical hit or sneak attack is scored on the BM, there is a 50% chance that the critical attack or sneak attack is negated and damage is instead rolled normally. Favored class: Sorcerer. A multiclass BMs Sorcerer class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience point penalty. Automatic Language: Common. Bonus Languages: none. Black Mage (mass production) Medium: As Medium creatures, BMs have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. BM base land speed is 30 feet. Darkvision: BMs can see in the dark up to 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and dwarves can function just fine with no light at all. +2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison, sleep effects, paralysis, and stunning. Light Fortification (Ex):When a critical hit or sneak attack is scored on the BM, there is a 50% chance that the critical attack or sneak attack is negated and damage is instead rolled normally. Favored class: Warmage. A multiclass BM’s warmage class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience point penalty. Type: Elemental (native) Unlike true elementals, these are born of the material realm, usually by strange magics. Unlike true elementals, native elementals: -are subject to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, and stunning. -are subject to to critical hits or flanking. -can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected. -eat, sleep and breath. -cannot be affected by spell designated for extraplanars. -can be affected by spell designated for humanoids. -gains HD, BAB, skills, saves and proficiencies through character class.
Banatine 05-22-07, 04:46 PM	i think that the PC black mage (assuming it is based on vivi should be: Proto-mage Construct (Living construct subtype) Small: As a Small creature, a proto-mage gains a +1 size bonus to Armor Class, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, and a +4 size bonus on Hide checks, but he uses smaller weapons than humans use, and his lifting and carrying limits are three-quarters of those of a Medium character. -2 Str, -2 Dex, -2 Wis, +2 Cha: Proto-mages, while posessing strong magical power are often physically weak, clumsy, and nieve. Base land speed: A proto-mages base land speed is 20 feet. Arcane Attunement: being created by magic grants the proto-mage several benefits. Firstly, he can use the spell-like powers dancing lights, detect magic, flare, ghost sound, and read magic a combined total of times per day equal to 3 + his Int modifier (these spell-like abilities do not count against his total number of spells known or spells per day). Secondly, the proto-mage gets a +2 racial bonus to spellcraft and Use Magic Device checks, and can use the skills untrained. Finally, the proto-mage casts all arcane spells at +1 caster level. Light Fortification (Ex):When a critical hit or sneak attack is scored against a proto-mage, there is a 25% chance that the critical attack or sneak attack is negated and damage is instead rolled normally. This ability stacks with any other form of fortification that the character may have. Favored class: Warmage. A multiclass proto-mage's warmage class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience point penalty. Automatic Language: Common. Bonus Languages: none. Level Adjustment: +1 I would say that that was fairly balanced. I know that the abilities kind of shoehorn it into a spellcasting class, but the mages were built, and that is what the mages were built for. I wouldn't know about their life-span. i know the regular mages live about a year, but we don't really know how long the game takes, how long vivi was aroung before the game, but he did live long enough to have several children (?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?) so he must have had a very long life.
TheAnthroDM 05-22-07, 08:06 PM	Once again, they're far from charismatic. The description of black mages in FFIX warrants no Charisma bonus. Period. Charisma is not just Charisma, it is presense, magical attuntment and force of will. Black mages definately have the later to Vivi was the one with the child-like outlook, which would indeed warrant a Wisdom penalty, not all black mages. Or so I recall. If I'm incorrect, giving them the Wisdom penalty would make these guys quite underwhelming. Wrong. Very wrong. Vivi is actually more mature than the others(And older to boot). Notice how most Black Mages have no concept of Death being eternal? Without going out of my way to stat these guys up, here's how I'd likely do them, 'though this is only one person's opinion: -2 Strength, +2 Intelligence. Nothing suggests tht they're more intellegent than other creatures. Construct (Living Construct Subtype). Medium: As Medium creatures, black mages have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. Black mage base land speed is 30 feet. Watch how slow they move. Low-light Vision: Black mages can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. They retain the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions. I see no reasoning for this. Arcane Doll: Black mages receive a +2 racial bonus on Spellcraft checks and add Spellcraft to their list of class skills for any class they adopt. Spell Channel (Su): A black mage can store a spell in any weapon as though it were a spell-storing weapon. Automatic Languages: Common. Bonus Languages: None. Favored Class: Sorcerer. A multiclass black mage's sorcerer class does not count when determining whether he suffers an XP penalty for multiclassing (see Player's Handbook, Chapter 3: Classes, "Multiclass Characters," XP for Multiclass Characters). That's all good. Personally, I'd make them Size: Small with a PrC or feat that lets them be medium. All of the Black Mages save a few were small creatures. Look closer then, they are about dwarf size. Vivi was an early model, he was smaller with a longer expiry date. One can assume kuja built later models larger simply so they'd look more menacing There's another reason for a Cha bonus and gave them shorter expiry dates so people would have to keep buying new ones, and if they betrayed him they'd eventualy run out of black mage soldiers. Here my attempt at stating them as it apearseveryone else is doing it. Black Mage (early model) Type: Elemental (native) Why? Nothing about them says that they're made of any of the elements. Everything about them says Construct. Small: As a Small creature, a BM gains a +1 size bonus to Armor Class, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, and a +4 size bonus on Hide checks, but he uses smaller weapons than humans use, and his lifting and carrying limits are three-quarters of those of a Medium character. Again, think Dwarf. I can see Vivi as small, but I still think Dwarflike is more appropiate. BM base land speed is 20 feet. Darkvision: BMs can see in the dark up to 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and dwarves can function just fine with no light at all. Good, minus the Darkvision as it doesn't make sense unless it's a type trait, as I recall Elementals don't have Darkvision(Constructs do though!) +2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison, sleep effects, paralysis, and stunning. Light Fortification (Ex):When a critical hit or sneak attack is scored on the BM, there is a 50% chance that the critical attack or sneak attack is negated and damage is instead rolled normally. You've stopped making sense now. Favored class: Sorcerer. A multiclass BMs Sorcerer class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience point penalty. Automatic Language: Common. Bonus Languages: none. Good Black Mage (mass production) Medium: As Medium creatures, BMs have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. Good BM base land speed is 30 feet. Again, they are slow, not fast Darkvision: BMs can see in the dark up to 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and dwarves can function just fine with no light at all. +2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison, sleep effects, paralysis, and stunning. Light Fortification (Ex):When a critical hit or sneak attack is scored on the BM, there is a 50% chance that the critical attack or sneak attack is negated and damage is instead rolled normally. See above. Favored class: Warmage. A multiclass BM’s warmage class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience point penalty. Besides the fact that Vivi is PC and not an NPC nothing indicates the other Black Mage Dolls can't learn the same spells he does. i think that the PC black mage (assuming it is based on vivi should be: Proto-mage Construct (Living construct subtype) Small: As a Small creature, a proto-mage gains a +1 size bonus to Armor Class, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, and a +4 size bonus on Hide checks, but he uses smaller weapons than humans use, and his lifting and carrying limits are three-quarters of those of a Medium character. -2 Str, -2 Dex, -2 Wis, +2 Cha: Proto-mages, while posessing strong magical power are often physically weak, clumsy, and nieve. I think Vivi is clumsy more due to him having a low dex score(in DnD terms) then from him being a black mage doll. Base land speed: A proto-mages base land speed is 20 feet. Arcane Attunement: being created by magic grants the proto-mage several benefits. Firstly, he can use the spell-like powers dancing lights, detect magic, flare, ghost sound, and read magic a combined total of times per day equal to 3 + his Int modifier (these spell-like abilities do not count against his total number of spells known or spells per day). Secondly, the proto-mage gets a +2 racial bonus to spellcraft and Use Magic Device checks, and can use the skills untrained. Finally, the proto-mage casts all arcane spells at +1 caster level. Light Fortification (Ex):When a critical hit or sneak attack is scored against a proto-mage, there is a 25% chance that the critical attack or sneak attack is negated and damage is instead rolled normally. This ability stacks with any other form of fortification that the character may have. Again, you've lost me. This makes no sense. Warforged get fortification because of their armor, no because they are living constructs. The spell-like abilities don't make sense at all. Favored class: Warmage. A multiclass proto-mage's warmage class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience point penalty. Automatic Language: Common. Bonus Languages: none. Level Adjustment: +1 Hmmm this wouldn't warrent an adjustment if you took away the +1 universal bonus me thinks. I would say that that was fairly balanced. I know that the abilities kind of shoehorn it into a spellcasting class, but the mages were built, and that is what the mages were built for. I wouldn't know about their life-span. i know the regular mages live about a year, but we don't really know how long the game takes, how long vivi was aroung before the game, but he did live long enough to have several children (?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?) so he must have had a very long life. I would assume Vivi's lifespan would be be that of a normal human. I'm not sure why, I just would.
Rerecros 05-22-07, 11:19 PM	Why? Nothing about them says that they're made of any of the elements. Everything about them says Construct. Incorrect, the prossess kuja used to create the black mages is described as copied from how garland created the genomes. And the materials used to create the black mages is from the elemental energies of the mist from the tree of life. They were artificialy created, but nothing beyond that links them to constructs. minus the Darkvision as it doesn't make sense unless it's a type trait, as I recall Elementals don't have Darkvision(Constructs do though!) elemenals do have darkvision. Besides the fact that Vivi is PC and not an NPC nothing indicates the other Black Mage Dolls can't learn the same spells he does. There is not so much based on the game, as it is a way to make things work better for a D&D adaptation. Being small, and relying on his inate abilities makes vivi more appropriate as a sorcerer. The mass production BM's larger size, and designation as soldiers makes them more suited as warmages. Again, you've lost me. This makes no sense. Warforged get fortification because of their armor, no because they are living constructs. Incorect, critical hits occur when something vital is hit. warforged being made out of inorgantic materials don't have as many weak spots as a creature with a more discernible anatomy. BMs, like elementals, seem to be an amorphous mass. I would give Vivi total fortification, but that would give him LA, and thus a poor spell caster. I would assume Vivi's lifespan would be be that of a normal human. I'm not sure why, I just would. I would say that physically, BM's would have indefinite lifespans, possibly into the thousands of years if it weren't for their expiry dates.
ragoftag 05-30-07, 11:40 PM	as per Hypertext d20:Charisma (Cha) Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. This ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting. Charisma is most important for paladins, sorcerers, and bards. It is also important for clerics, since it affects their ability to turn undead. Every creature has a Charisma score. You apply your character’s Charisma modifier to: * Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Perform, and Use Magic Device checks. These are the skills that have Charisma as their key ability. * Checks that represent attempts to influence others. * Turning checks for clerics and paladins attempting to turn zombies, vampires, and other undead. Sorcerers and bards get bonus spells based on their Charisma scores. The minimum Charisma score needed to cast a sorcerer or bard spell is 10 + the spell’s level. When an ability score changes, all attributes associated with that score change accordingly. A character does not retroactively get additional skill points for previous levels if she increases her intelligence. Lets see, Black Mage: Force of personality-solid Persuasiveness-read: Intimidate Personal magnetism-? Ability to lead-doubtful Physical attractiveness-Only to the odd ball "This ability represents actual strength of personality" is an understatement. Skills: Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Perform, and Use Magic Device checks. Odd, but Polite Society isn't in here. Neither is Looks like Halle Berry. Perhaps we need a different item to represent boosted Sorcerous ability, or impose penalties as needed?
ragoftag 05-30-07, 11:50 PM	A friend just chimed in that they are best as Warmages. intriguing
captianhowdy 05-31-07, 01:25 AM	Ok, ill compile all these suggestions and get to work fixing this this weekend
Banatine 05-31-07, 06:57 AM	Incorrect, the prossess kuja used to create the black mages is described as copied from how garland created the genomes. And the materials used to create the black mages is from the elemental energies of the mist from the tree of life. They were artificialy created, but nothing beyond that links them to constructs. They were dolls, animated by suffusing them with mist. What more do you need to know in order to classify them as constructs? I would personally class the genomes as abberations, for a similar reason that elan are abbarerations. they have a completely alien mindset.