Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Count Nerindil Van Seraph 05-25-07, 03:38 PM	Hey, folks! A few months back I posted a new race called blade elves. I got some pretty good feedback, and have been revising them ever since. This is what I have come up with: Blade Elves Appearance: From a distance, blade elves look more like orcs. They are tall, never shorter than six feet, with some particularly large ones pushing eight. They have big arms, broad shoulders and barrel chests. Up close, the defining features of an elf become more apparent. They have sharp, angular features, large, almond shaped eyes and long, swept-back ears. Indeed, it could be said that their features are even more elven than those of a standard elf. Their facial features would lend to handsomeness, were they not so imposing, with high, pronounced cheek bones and strong but slender chins. Their ears are exceptionally long and do not fan out as much as a high elf, coming to a sharp point like a pair of curved daggers. Like most elves, blade elves usually have a thick head of dark brown or black hair. Very rarely, however, a blade elf is born with a full head of red hair. This is a powerful omen for the infant elf, and for the clan he is born into. What this omen means depends on the astrological signs the child is born under. (There will be more on this as I post more fluff.) Their most striking features, however, are the series of tattoos, scars and piercing that cover their bodies. Each of these markings has a specific meaning. A pair of symbols might signify that the elf is a particularly good marksman or that he is a gifted seer. A warrior might give himself a scar in the form of a rune on his arm to mark every 25 enemies killed and a specific type of ring pierced through the cheek could indicate a station of authority. • +2 STR, -2 CHA. Blade elves are stronger and sturdier than their forest dwelling cousins. However, their gruff, focused nature makes it difficult for them to relate to others. • Base speed 30 ft. • Humanoid (Elf): Blade elves are humanoids with the elf subtype. • Medium: Blade elves have no penalties or bonuses due to size. • +2 racial bonus to listen and spot checks. Blade elves have keen eyes and ears. • +3 racial bonus to intimidate checks. With the combined factors of a hulking frame, fearsome ritualized tattoos, scars and piercing and an aggressive nature, blade elves can be terrible to behold. • Blade Brother (Ex): A blade elf can attune themselves to a specific weapon by practicing and meditating with it for one hour every day for a week. The character then recieves a bonus of +1 (min 1) every three levels on any opposed attack rolls to resist disarm and sunder attempts on the attuned weapon. The weapon recieves the same bonus to its hardness, and to all saving throws whilst being wielded by the blade elf. There is, however a down side to this ability. If the blade is sundered, the blade elf gains a negative level. This negative level cannot directly kill the blade elf, but it does stack with other negative levels. For example, if a fifth level blade elf with four negative levels has his blade sundered, he still gains the normal penalties for from the negative level, but it does not kill him. However, if a fifth level blade elf’s blade is broken and then later gains four negative levels, he dies. This effect lasts until the blade elf designates a new blade brother or until the blade is reforged. • Combat Prowess (Ex): At 1st level a blade elf can choose any one of the following bonus feats: Martial Weapon Proficiency, Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Quick Draw, Combat Expertise or Weapon Focus. The blade elf must meet all prerequisites for the selected feat. In addition, the feats only function when used in conjunction with a slashing or piercing weapon. • Favored Class: Fighter. The thing that I am having the most trouble with is the "Blade Brother" ability. I'm pretty happy with what I have, but If you have any suggestions on improving it while keeping it a LA 0 race, do tell. Any and all comments are appreciated, The Count :dragon:
Nat_20 05-25-07, 04:49 PM	i like it, the heavy armor movement might be a little bit to good, even at 10th level... thats the disadvantage of hiding behind a wall of steel... I like the race though... very nice, what about the fluff, are they allied or enemies or indifferent with other elves or other races? You should make race specific feats that extend the uses of the tattoos. like have different tribes with different tattoo variations and different bonus's... But i like it, kinda cool idea for a Kensai character.... ha ha
AMGriffin 05-25-07, 04:50 PM	The Armor and Blade brother abilities are simply too much, so are the selectable bonus feats at first level, and with nothing but a charisma bonus, this race is simply too much for LA+0, but still not nearly enough for LA+1.
Kursk 05-25-07, 05:11 PM	• +2 STR, -2 CHA. Not a balanced trade off.
AMGriffin 05-25-07, 09:08 PM	That's not a big deal. +2 Str, -2 Cha hardly breaks a race, just doesn't give you much leeway in the line of a ability bonuses, let alone something that eliminates penalties on base landspeed in armor.
Elgorfo 05-28-07, 01:21 PM	OMG NOT ANOTHER ELF SUB-... wait...this is pretty good.
Leukrythus 05-28-07, 01:58 PM	WTF is a P.E.A.C.H.? Pickled Eels And Charred Herrings?
AMGriffin 05-28-07, 02:14 PM	Please Examine and critique honestly I think.
Captain_Kobold 05-28-07, 06:43 PM	I'd say give them back low light vision. Give them martial weapon proficiency in shortsword, longsword, scimitar and rapier. Remove the Armor adaptation, Blade brother and Combat prowess as racial abilities, and introduce them in some fighter racial substitution levels.
Count Nerindil Van Seraph 05-28-07, 10:04 PM	OMG NOT ANOTHER ELF SUB-... wait...this is pretty good. That is a very high compliment. Thank you, sir/madame. Hey, sorry about this taking so long. My interwebs have been wonkey. I am eventually going to post the fluff for these guys but, 1) that's a day and a half I don't really have at the moment, 2) Right now I'm really more concerned about crunch. On the subject of crunch, I have been looking at these guys, in terms of balance, in comparison to dwarves. Here's how I see it: 1) Ability scores. +2 STR may be more beneficial to melee types than +2 CON (but only slightly so IMHO), but for anyone else, the CON is preferable. The -2 to CHA is, admittedly, a cop out. If anyone has any ideas about how to give these guys a soft spot that isn't a ability score penalty, please speak up. 2) Vision. They don't have lowlight vision because they live in the desert. More on that in the future. 3) Armor Adaptation. I compare this to the the dwarven speed ability. I scaled it because, obviously, with a 30 foot base speed, it is much more useful. It's strong, to be sure, but I don't see it as LA +1 strong. 4) Combat prowess. As the dwarven war axe racial ability, but more customizable, and useful to more classes. Blade elf rogues, for example, prefer great swords to rapiers. 5)Blade brother. O.K. I NEED HELP WITH THIS! I want something to connect these guys, spiritually, to their weapons. This is (believe it or not :banghead: ) the best thing that I have come up with. I do like the negative level that comes with it being sundered, but, again, this is kind of a cop out weakness. I'd say give them back low light vision. Give them martial weapon proficiency in shortsword, longsword, scimitar and rapier. Remove the Armor adaptation, Blade brother and Combat prowess as racial abilities, and introduce them in some fighter racial substitution levels. I intend to post racial sub-levels eventually (currently toying with Soul Knives, a very important class for these guys) but right now I want to make them a race that automatically augments melee classes. That's all that I have time for, at the moment, but I will (God and ISP willing) checking in on this at least once per day and posting revisions, comments and fluff. Thanks for the input, The Count :dragon:
Captain_Kobold 05-29-07, 12:19 PM	The concept is interesting, although I've no idea how a race like this would come about. I await the fluff with interest. Do not use dwarves as a comparison race to balance them. Dwarves are generally acknowledged as rather powerful for a LA +0 race. They are a sub-type of elves: compare them to base elf racials. Perhaps an Int penalty to balance the Str bonus. That is slightly more balaced and reflects these elves live a less scholarly, more martial lifestyle. A Cha penalty doesn't really balance with a Str bonus. (Look at the half-orc.) Armor adaptation: Why would a Blade elf wizard, ranger, barbarian etc get used to wearing heavy armour when they aren't even trained in its use? This ability sounds like it should either be some racial substitution features, or racial feats. It does not compare to the Dwarven ability to move when medium encumbered or when medium armored Dwarves are naturally stocky, inflexible, slow, and built well for load-bearing. I doubt that these elves are. If they live in the desert, it is likely that heavy armour is extremely rare among them. Combat prowess: Better replaced by martial weapon proficiency with some weapons. It sounds like all blade elves recieve some martial training, even wizards and sorcerors. Dwarven weapon familiarity is not a free combat feat. It simply allows a dwarf with a martial class to use two common racial weapons. A Dwarf who does not recieve all the martial weapon proficiencies as a class feature gains no benefit. Blade bother: How about: A blade elf can attune themselves to a specific weapon by practicing and meditating with it for one hour every day for a week. The character then recieves a bonus of +1 (min 1) every three levels on any opposed attack rolls to resist disarm and sunder attempts on the attuned weapon. The weapon recieves the same bonus to its hardness, and to all saving throws whilst being wielded by the blade elf.
Count Nerindil Van Seraph 05-31-07, 01:36 PM	Armor adaptation: Why would a Blade elf wizard, ranger, barbarian etc get used to wearing heavy armour when they aren't even trained in its use? A very good point. If they live in the desert, it is likely that heavy armour is extremely rare among them. Well (and I will expound upon this when I get around to the fluff) even though they live in the desert, they don't live in the desert. They have subterranean cities. So, they have scouts that patrol the entrance (light armor) and defenders in the city proper. However, I really agree with your first point. I think that I will remove the Armor Adaptation. Blade bother: How about: A blade elf can attune themselves to a specific weapon by practicing and meditating with it for one hour every day for a week. The character then recieves a bonus of +1 (min 1) every three levels on any opposed attack rolls to resist disarm and sunder attempts on the attuned weapon. The weapon recieves the same bonus to its hardness, and to all saving throws whilst being wielded by the blade elf. I love it! I will definately be using that. Do you think I should keep the negative level thing? (I do kind of like it.) Combat prowess: Better replaced by martial weapon proficiency with some weapons. It sounds like all blade elves recieve some martial training, even wizards and sorcerors. Dwarven weapon familiarity is not a free combat feat. It simply allows a dwarf with a martial class to use two common racial weapons. A Dwarf who does not recieve all the martial weapon proficiencies as a class feature gains no benefit. I still think that I am going to keep this, at least for now. Different clans of blade elves specialize in different weapons and combat styles. Giving them the weapon proficiency feats instead of specific weapons adds a degree of custumizability. Thanks for the advice, and keep it up!
bahamut920 05-31-07, 07:10 PM	Armor adaptation: Why would a Blade elf wizard, ranger, barbarian etc get used to wearing heavy armour when they aren't even trained in its use? Why do dwarf wizards and sorcs get that ability? They don't have any training with that kind of armor... or any armor for that matter.
Captain_Kobold 06-01-07, 03:42 AM	Why do dwarf wizards and sorcs get that ability? They don't have any training with that kind of armor... or any armor for that matter. It does not compare to the Dwarven ability to move when medium encumbered or when medium armored. Dwarves are naturally stocky, inflexible, slow, and built well for load-bearing. I doubt that these elves are. If I need to expand on this point, dwarves don't get this ability due to training, but due to their build. They are naturally slow, but good at carrying weight without it slowing them down. Remember its not just an armour thing, but any sort of medium encumbrance. I still think that I am going to keep this, at least for now. Different clans of blade elves specialize in different weapons and combat styles. Giving them the weapon proficiency feats instead of specific weapons adds a degree of custumizability. Keep it to a couple of martial weapon proficiencies then. Its a lot less powerful than allowing bonus fighter feats into the mix. If these elves live in subterranean cities, perhaps coming out mostly at night, why have they not retained their low-light vision?
ATroubledMarco 06-01-07, 03:46 AM	It's not training for a dwarf; it's the natural build of his frame and legs. A dwarf doesn't move just as fast in heavy armor as he does in light armor; he moves just as slow unarmored as he does in heavy armor. And the man said as much in his post.
Count Nerindil Van Seraph 06-03-07, 08:08 PM	:bump: I'm going to start posting fluff tomorrow.
Laucian The Black Hearted 06-04-07, 08:37 AM	Unless you want a LA, you need to come up with a better minus than the Cha. The reason being is that strength directly affects combat; charisma does not. One thing to consider is that the only PHB race that has a Str modifier is the Half-Orc. How big is the physique of the Blade Elf in comparison?
Count Nerindil Van Seraph 06-04-07, 04:41 PM	Appearance fluff posted!
Count Nerindil Van Seraph 06-09-07, 11:53 AM	:bump:
Peregrine_Wolf 06-09-07, 12:11 PM	I like this, you probably should remove the negative level thing for teh Blade Brother ability. A racial ability that could potentially kill the character usually isn't a good thing. Also, since they live in teh desert, you should give them something like +1 on fortitude saves against the stuff that heat does to you(not sure what those are atm). Also, maybe they only need to eat or drink once a week or something like that. All in all though, I might want to test this in one of my games. :elf: :thumbsup:
EpicEvokerElf 06-09-07, 12:39 PM	Add an int penalty. Then they're on par with the half-orc. If they're subterrantean, give them darkvision 60.
Count Nerindil Van Seraph 06-09-07, 12:46 PM	Add an int penalty. Then they're on par with the half-orc. If they're subterrantean, give them darkvision 60. Except the half orc is a phenomenally underpowered race. The darkvision is a no-go, too, because, while they are subterranean, they do venture into the above ground world on a regular basis. Plus, they use lamps.
Teron Gorefiend 06-09-07, 08:28 PM	Except the half orc is a phenomenally underpowered race. The darkvision is a no-go, too, because, while they are subterranean, they do venture into the above ground world on a regular basis. Plus, they use lamps. Half-orcs aren't that underpowered, because a strength bonus is really good. They're mostly just dull. Half-elves, on the other hand... Anyway, I'm not great at balancing, but I think giving your race a -2 penalty to wisdom might help. It actually hurts martial characters since their will save is already a weakness, and you can blame it on self-absorption or single-mindedness or somesuch so that it fits with the charisma penalty.
AMGriffin 06-10-07, 09:33 AM	Half-orcs are underpowered, badly. A bonus to strength alone (especially when you have two friggin' ability score penalties) cannot carry a PC race. The race is balanced as it is.
Teron Gorefiend 06-10-07, 04:49 PM	Half-orcs are underpowered, badly. A bonus to strength alone (especially when you have two friggin' ability score penalties) cannot carry a PC race. The race is balanced as it is. Most classes have no use for charisma at all, and several barely need skills. Basically, half-orcs get a very useful bonus to strength in exchange for the scores and minor racial traits that help make a characters interesting outside of combat. They're pretty good (not on par with dwarves, but what is?) but terribly bland in both mechanics and flavour.
AMGriffin 06-10-07, 05:52 PM	That makes them underpowered. Strength is only truly useful to fighters, barbarians, and rangers, other classes can work fine without it. The fact they have intelligence and charisma penalties means they are going to be lackluster or mediocre at almost everything but fighting. They are so limited in their choices of character class, and even in the classes they are "good" at, they still are only useful for hitting things. Hardly what I'd call balanced, especially when you can just use an orc. That's why they're underpowered.
EpicEvokerElf 06-10-07, 07:05 PM	Remove combat prowess. Shazam! They're balanced.
Teron Gorefiend 06-10-07, 10:39 PM	That makes them underpowered. Strength is only truly useful to fighters, barbarians, and rangers, other classes can work fine without it. The fact they have intelligence and charisma penalties means they are going to be lackluster or mediocre at almost everything but fighting. They are so limited in their choices of character class, and even in the classes they are "good" at, they still are only useful for hitting things. Hardly what I'd call balanced, especially when you can just use an orc. That's why they're underpowered. Monks, clerics and paladins also value strength highly (though the charisma penalty does hurt the latter). That's not a bad selection of classes, comparable - for instance - to gnomes who can essentially choose between being a bard, cleric, druid, rogue, sorcerer or wizard. We agree that half-orcs are impaired outside of combat, but they should have at least one strong skill (probably a combat one like Ride, Tumble or Concentration, admittedly), someone else should make a better party face than the meat shield, and magic starts obsoleting skills pretty early, anyway. More to the point, most of the classes to which half-orcs are suited are limited outside of combat in and of themselves; the race further embraces that play style, taking penalties to what its class doesn't do to be better at its job - hitting things. Balance is primarily a matter of combat effectiveness, and half-orcs excel there as much as any non-spellcaster can - or even dominate as well as any other cleric. Again: dull, but sufficiently effective. As for orcs being better, that's as much a (small) issue with the orc as it is with the half-orc. At least the wisdom penalty hurts them as rangers, monks and clerics, and in most settings there are serious non-mechanical impracticalities to being an orc.
myusernameis 07-17-07, 03:54 PM	I'm stealing these, they fit perfectly for a post apocalyptic world I made a while back. Though one change I will be making that I humbly suggest you adopt as well would be swapping the charisma penalty for a wisdom or intelligence penalty, not for game balance reasons, just my belief that charisma penalties don't make sense (are they born with less of a sense of self than a human child?).
Lawlicron 07-17-07, 03:58 PM	(are they born with less of a sense of self than a human child?). Some people are born with less sense of self than others, but thats wisdom related.
myusernameis 07-17-07, 04:02 PM	Some people are born with less sense of self than others, but thats wisdom related.Some people, but it seems silly for it to be an entire race. Anyhow, that's my two cents. Otherwise I think the race is excellent and interesting.
Lawlicron 07-17-07, 05:45 PM	Some people, but it seems silly for it to be an entire race. I agree on that. But there is already an entire race like that, the Derro.
IdleAltruism 07-17-07, 06:06 PM	For an elf these guys aren't very elf like. I would suggest going something like +2str -2wis(or int but I don't see a race of war elves being stupid) drop their attuned ability and whatever other "special" abilities. Make a PrC class for their attuned stuff then you can add all the cheese you want without a level adjustment. Add low light or something equivalent and automatic weapon proficiencies like regular elves(something like falchions and scimitars, I think i read somewhere in this post they are desert like). Use something like a wild elf or wood elf as an base otherwise we just fly out into the abyss of munchkism. Not that this races abilities are over powered as is, its just those kind of things belong in classes not a race. Flavor wise you could make their favored class something like swordsages of the desert wind. Just my :twocents:
Spikes01k 07-17-07, 06:54 PM	The Armor and Blade brother abilities are simply too much, so are the selectable bonus feats at first level, and with nothing but a charisma bonus, this race is simply too much for LA+0, but still not nearly enough for LA+1. I happen to agree with you here. It is too much of a LA 0, but too little to be a decent LA+1.
AMGriffin 07-18-07, 04:54 PM	Monks, clerics and paladins also value strength highly (though the charisma penalty does hurt the latter). I'll give you that, but the half-orc's +2 strength is about the only thing they have. It's not all that much in contrast to the bonuses other races get. I will concede that monk and cleric are good half-orc classes however, but not anything to write home about. That's not a bad selection of classes, comparable - for instance - to gnomes who can essentially choose between being a bard, cleric, druid, rogue, sorcerer or wizard. Gnomes are almost as underpowered as Half-elves and Half-orcs. Not the best choice for a comparison. We agree that half-orcs are impaired outside of combat, but they should have at least one strong skill (probably a combat one like Ride, Tumble or Concentration, admittedly), someone else should make a better party face than the meat shield, and magic starts obsoleting skills pretty early, anyway. More to the point, most of the classes to which half-orcs are suited are limited outside of combat in and of themselves; the race further embraces that play style, taking penalties to what its class doesn't do to be better at its job - hitting things. That's not the style of play I want to encourage. I'd rather not see half-orcs just stuffed into the meat-head break stuff role. Balance is primarily a matter of combat effectiveness, and half-orcs excel there as much as any non-spellcaster can - or even dominate as well as any other cleric. Okay, they can hit hard? What good is that? They have no saves or skill bonuses to their name whatsoever. As for orcs being better, that's as much a (small) issue with the orc as it is with the half-orc. At least the wisdom penalty hurts them as rangers, monks and clerics, and in most settings there are serious non-mechanical impracticalities to being an orc. You missed the point of that. Sure, they can't be good rangers or clerics or monks like half-orcs (the only one of those I truly consider half-orcs to be exceoptionally skliled at being the monk) but for those specific players that want to just focus on hitting things really hard...why not just pick a full orc with a +4 bonus to strength? Hell, based on the blatant superiority of strength, orcs may be just as effective as monks as half-orcs are. The problem with half-orcs (and half-elves too) is that they're ultimately inferior to humans or orcs in just about every role. Sure, they can carve out a niche role as possibily a battle priest build, but other then that humans and orcs will offer more in just about every class. All in all, half-orcs have a nice shiny +2 to strength, but they have NOTHING else. You can't build a race around +2 strength alone, especially when you don't give it any skill or save bonuses and a penalty to two abilities.
Ninetails Demon 07-21-07, 05:35 PM	I'd say this race is technically a +0 LA. The Blade Brother ability isn't too powerful, but it can be useful. The only thing that seems to be weird is the Combat Prowess. It is significantly weaker than the human bonus feat, but it does restrict the player to actually qualify for the feat. The only problem with Combat Prowess that I really see, is that only a martial character can get any nice use out of it. Most caster and sneak classes can't take anything but the Proficiency options or possibly Combat Expertise. In all honesty, you should probably replace Combat Prowess with Proficiency bonuses and increase the power of Blade Brother a little bit. Or give them some other minor abilities to round them out like minor spell-like abilities that facilitate life in the desert/underground. Light or Create Water 1/day maybe? More fluff should probably be posted to explain why they lack lowlight-vision or darkvision. Also, why this deep connection that enables them to form a Blade Brother? This would help us to create suggestions for you.
Watsyurname529 07-21-07, 05:51 PM	I would throw out Combat Prowess and put in its place Weapon Proficiency: Scimitar, Falchion, and Shortbow, maybe Kukri. Also I would probably change the Ability bonus to +2 Str -2 Wis. And maybe take out the negative level for losing their weapon, instead just give them a -2 Attack & -2 Dmg rolls when their weapon gets broken and it stays until they can reforge the connection to a new weapon.