Blind template (PEACH) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Blind template (PEACH) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Fiendishfiend
03-04-07, 02:41 AM There are stories of blind monks and warriors. Masters of combat, yet they have no ability to see. How is that? this template is the answer ( or you can go with the "they are epic and are just able to do that")

Blind template (just could not come up with a good name)
Those of this template were born under an ominous sign of the heavens. Because of that they are forever cursed with no sight.

Forever blind: Those with this template may never gain the ability to see. Spells and powers that restore sight don't work, nor does spells and powers that duplicate sight (like the Synesthete power).
Extraordinary senses: The creature has blindsight out to 5 feet at 1st ECL and a additional 5 per 2 ECL after 1st ECL. They also have blindsense out an additional 10 feet beyond Blindsight. Creatures out side this range are considered having concealment against this creature.This ability represents overcoming a lifetime of being blind.
+2 wis, -2 int: The blind are patient, but not as smart as others since they can't read.
(sorry can't think of a name for this either): the creature takes a -2 to AC against ranged attacks made from outside thier blindsight range.
+1 LA

COMMENTS: I got this idea from that blind warrior :monk: in mortal kombat: deadly alliance. Ideas for name are welcome.

UPDATE: OMG I completly forgot about changing the LA. Its fixed now.
calronmoonflower
03-04-07, 02:54 AM This template might be added to creature without class levels so the blindsight should work off hit die and maybe should has a upper limit somewhere.

Also +2 wis -2 int is considered balanced. Its in the DMG page 173 in the Ability Score Equivalence table.

:eek: Just noticed that they consider Con bonus equal to a mental score penality. Weird to should be like worth 2 mental scores like STR and DEX.
Finfreeze
03-04-07, 08:57 AM Of course, the big problem here is that blind creatures are sitting ducks for incorporeal creatures, since blindsight doesn't work on them and listen is easily defeated.

An incorporeal creature moves silently and cannot be heard with Listen checks if it doesn’t wish to be.
...
Nonvisual senses, such as scent and blindsight, are either ineffective or only partly effective with regard to incorporeal creatures.

Also, Zatoichi ain't stupid.
bobothechimp
03-04-07, 09:04 AM I'd say you get rid of the blindsense. Just because they're blind doesn't mean they gain some supernatural amazing ability to use all their other senses to form working vision. They're just blind.
JarionSilverblades
03-04-07, 09:15 AM I could see (no pun intended) this template giving a bonus to Listen checks that increases over time, and a bonus against invisible foes. an perhaps they gain the Scent ability at like HD 10, to represent their heightening senses.
The_One_Who_Walks
03-04-07, 12:03 PM I'd say you get rid of the blindsense. Just because they're blind doesn't mean they gain some supernatural amazing ability to use all their other senses to form working vision. They're just blind.

actually, being as this is a template, not just being born blind, and has to do with being born under a significant omen, I'm pretty that them gaining a supernatural ability to use all other senses to see is exactly what it means.

I like it. the 5ft x ECL rather than HD is a bit odd, but I suppose it works. I think putting a cap in there someplace might be a good idea, but I don't know what it could be. maybe 60ft at 12th level or some such. You also might consider just blatantly leaving the -2 AC vs. ranged in there, rather than mitigating, and them eliminating it. Even say it only applys to ranged attack that originate from outside their blindsight range. I dunno what is and is not considered balanced in terms of AC vs, Abilities, but maybe leaving that would let you put in +2 wis with no neg to balance it. If the AC isn't enough, you might consider giving them a small circumstance penalty to diplomacy. I dunno about anyone else, but talking to an obviously blind person who seemed to be able to "see" me anyway would be atleast a little unnerving...

for the record, ECL covers racial HD, so this template can be applyed to a creature with racial HD but no class levels just fine
GSonic7
03-04-07, 01:14 PM Maybe, since you are saying that this has to do with when the character was born, it could be a Birth Feat. Then, it could work in a way similar to VoP: At each level, you get some bonus. Just don't make it as broken, and you have a (takeable) birth feat.
The_One_Who_Walks
03-04-07, 01:42 PM Maybe, since you are saying that this has to do with when the character was born, it could be a Birth Feat. Then, it could work in a way similar to VoP: At each level, you get some bonus. Just don't make it as broken, and you have a (takeable) birth feat.

at the risk of sounding ill-informed, what's a Birth Feat? and what's VoP?
Darth Sephiroth
03-04-07, 01:48 PM Vow of Poverty, one of the oddest feats from the Book of Exalted Deeds
Zephania
03-04-07, 01:54 PM blindsight out to 5xECL is an aweful lot....I'd say 5x1/2 ECL, but blindsense out to 5xECL....i do also like the birth feat idea, rather than template, and the bonuses to listen checks...but thats just me
unusualsuspect
03-04-07, 02:02 PM blindsight out to 5xECL is an aweful lot....I'd say 5x1/2 ECL, but blindsense out to 5xECL....i do also like the birth feat idea, rather than template, and the bonuses to listen checks...but thats just me

I'd second this idea, with a slightly different mechanic:

Blindsight out to 5 feet per 2 ECL, rounding up in integrals of 5. Blindsense out an additional 10 feet beyond Blindsight.
The_One_Who_Walks
03-04-07, 02:04 PM Vow of Poverty, one of the oddest feats from the Book of Exalted Deeds

ah, ok. that makes sence. I remember Vow of Poverty... I love that feat :-)

I still dunno what a Birth feat is. I mean, I can assume a certian amount based on the name, but.... are they from a book I should know about? are there any general paramiters they follow? anything like that?
Yue Ryong
03-04-07, 04:51 PM 'Birth' feats are more often called 'Heritage' feats. They're any feat that can only be taken at first level, as they represent something intrinsic to the character's nature, rather than training and development.
olshanski_home
03-04-07, 05:00 PM blindsight is way overpowered at +0 LA.

If you are going to give blind characters a ridiculously powerful ability, like blindsight, then where is the handicap? "oh, poor me, I am handicapped, having no legs, I am unable to walk. Its kind of nice that I have a natural fly speed of 60 to compensate."

Blinded: The character cannot see. He takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class, loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any), moves at half speed, and takes a –4 penalty on Search checks and on most Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks. All checks and activities that rely on vision (such as reading and Spot checks) automatically fail. All opponents are considered to have total concealment (50% miss chance) to the blinded character. Characters who remain blinded for a long time grow accustomed to these drawbacks and can overcome some of them.
Looking at the rules, lets consider what is reasonable for a long-term person to overcome:
perhaps in the long term they lose the penalty to AC and can keep dex bonus to AC. let them move at full speed and lose the penalty on STR and DEX based skill checks. Perhaps cut the miss chance to 33% which can be lowered to 16% with a blind-fight feat (IE: miss due to concealment 2/6 of the time, or with the blind-fight feat this can be reduced to 1/6).

So this character will have a handicap (a miss chance) and they automatically fail spot checks and reading checks, and in exchange they cannot be blinded, they are immune to illusions and spells relying on sight, they have a big advantage against creatures with displacement or mirror images. They are much better in fog or bad lighting conditions than normal people. This seems a reasonable +0 LA for a long-term blindness.
JarionSilverblades
03-04-07, 05:53 PM This Template needs to be similar to the Fiendish template, what I mean by that it should provide more benefits as the character increases in HD, the trick is giving Characters benifits without the LA.
Fiendishfiend
03-04-07, 06:04 PM Update: I added the ability adjustments, lowered just how far the blindsight can extend, and put in the blind sense. I didn't even think about incorporeal creatures when I made this template. Should I have that at 10 ECL the blindsense becomes a lesser soulsense and so that way they can see incorporeal creatures in a range of half thier blindsight range.Thus at 11 lvl they creature would have blindsight 30 ft, and can see ghosts within 15 ft
GSonic7
03-04-07, 06:05 PM This Template needs to be similar to the Fiendish template, what I mean by that it should provide more benefits as the character increases in HD, the trick is giving Characters benifits without the LA.

I still don't think that this should be a template. Templates, imho, are supposed to be about who (or what) the creature was born to, not when they were born. That's why I think it should be a Birth Feat. If you want to make up for it taking up a feat slot, make the 1 HD benefit a bonus feat.
Silverthumb128
03-04-07, 06:13 PM Just take Blind-Fight, then Hear the Unseen(Complete Adventurer), and Blindsight(Sword & Fist). There ya go, a blind character that is viable by RAW, and still isn't bad.
olshanski_home
03-05-07, 01:46 PM Update: I added the ability adjustments, lowered just how far the blindsight can extend, and put in the blind sense. I didn't even think about incorporeal creatures when I made this template. Should I have that at 10 ECL the blindsense becomes a lesser soulsense and so that way they can see incorporeal creatures in a range of half thier blindsight range.Thus at 11 lvl they creature would have blindsight 30 ft, and can see ghosts within 15 ft

At least LA +1.

Would anyone choose to be able to see, (vulnerable to gaze attacks, vulnearble to sneak attacks by invisible creatures, etcetera)... when instead they could have blindsight, immunity to illusions, immunity to gaze attacks, and so on.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Fiendishfiend 03-04-07, 02:41 AM	There are stories of blind monks and warriors. Masters of combat, yet they have no ability to see. How is that? this template is the answer ( or you can go with the "they are epic and are just able to do that") Blind template (just could not come up with a good name) Those of this template were born under an ominous sign of the heavens. Because of that they are forever cursed with no sight. Forever blind: Those with this template may never gain the ability to see. Spells and powers that restore sight don't work, nor does spells and powers that duplicate sight (like the Synesthete power). Extraordinary senses: The creature has blindsight out to 5 feet at 1st ECL and a additional 5 per 2 ECL after 1st ECL. They also have blindsense out an additional 10 feet beyond Blindsight. Creatures out side this range are considered having concealment against this creature.This ability represents overcoming a lifetime of being blind. +2 wis, -2 int: The blind are patient, but not as smart as others since they can't read. (sorry can't think of a name for this either): the creature takes a -2 to AC against ranged attacks made from outside thier blindsight range. +1 LA COMMENTS: I got this idea from that blind warrior :monk: in mortal kombat: deadly alliance. Ideas for name are welcome. UPDATE: OMG I completly forgot about changing the LA. Its fixed now.
calronmoonflower 03-04-07, 02:54 AM	This template might be added to creature without class levels so the blindsight should work off hit die and maybe should has a upper limit somewhere. Also +2 wis -2 int is considered balanced. Its in the DMG page 173 in the Ability Score Equivalence table. :eek: Just noticed that they consider Con bonus equal to a mental score penality. Weird to should be like worth 2 mental scores like STR and DEX.
Finfreeze 03-04-07, 08:57 AM	Of course, the big problem here is that blind creatures are sitting ducks for incorporeal creatures, since blindsight doesn't work on them and listen is easily defeated. An incorporeal creature moves silently and cannot be heard with Listen checks if it doesn’t wish to be. ... Nonvisual senses, such as scent and blindsight, are either ineffective or only partly effective with regard to incorporeal creatures. Also, Zatoichi ain't stupid.
bobothechimp 03-04-07, 09:04 AM	I'd say you get rid of the blindsense. Just because they're blind doesn't mean they gain some supernatural amazing ability to use all their other senses to form working vision. They're just blind.
JarionSilverblades 03-04-07, 09:15 AM	I could see (no pun intended) this template giving a bonus to Listen checks that increases over time, and a bonus against invisible foes. an perhaps they gain the Scent ability at like HD 10, to represent their heightening senses.
The_One_Who_Walks 03-04-07, 12:03 PM	I'd say you get rid of the blindsense. Just because they're blind doesn't mean they gain some supernatural amazing ability to use all their other senses to form working vision. They're just blind. actually, being as this is a template, not just being born blind, and has to do with being born under a significant omen, I'm pretty that them gaining a supernatural ability to use all other senses to see is exactly what it means. I like it. the 5ft x ECL rather than HD is a bit odd, but I suppose it works. I think putting a cap in there someplace might be a good idea, but I don't know what it could be. maybe 60ft at 12th level or some such. You also might consider just blatantly leaving the -2 AC vs. ranged in there, rather than mitigating, and them eliminating it. Even say it only applys to ranged attack that originate from outside their blindsight range. I dunno what is and is not considered balanced in terms of AC vs, Abilities, but maybe leaving that would let you put in +2 wis with no neg to balance it. If the AC isn't enough, you might consider giving them a small circumstance penalty to diplomacy. I dunno about anyone else, but talking to an obviously blind person who seemed to be able to "see" me anyway would be atleast a little unnerving... for the record, ECL covers racial HD, so this template can be applyed to a creature with racial HD but no class levels just fine
GSonic7 03-04-07, 01:14 PM	Maybe, since you are saying that this has to do with when the character was born, it could be a Birth Feat. Then, it could work in a way similar to VoP: At each level, you get some bonus. Just don't make it as broken, and you have a (takeable) birth feat.
The_One_Who_Walks 03-04-07, 01:42 PM	Maybe, since you are saying that this has to do with when the character was born, it could be a Birth Feat. Then, it could work in a way similar to VoP: At each level, you get some bonus. Just don't make it as broken, and you have a (takeable) birth feat. at the risk of sounding ill-informed, what's a Birth Feat? and what's VoP?
Darth Sephiroth 03-04-07, 01:48 PM	Vow of Poverty, one of the oddest feats from the Book of Exalted Deeds
Zephania 03-04-07, 01:54 PM	blindsight out to 5xECL is an aweful lot....I'd say 5x1/2 ECL, but blindsense out to 5xECL....i do also like the birth feat idea, rather than template, and the bonuses to listen checks...but thats just me
unusualsuspect 03-04-07, 02:02 PM	blindsight out to 5xECL is an aweful lot....I'd say 5x1/2 ECL, but blindsense out to 5xECL....i do also like the birth feat idea, rather than template, and the bonuses to listen checks...but thats just me I'd second this idea, with a slightly different mechanic: Blindsight out to 5 feet per 2 ECL, rounding up in integrals of 5. Blindsense out an additional 10 feet beyond Blindsight.
The_One_Who_Walks 03-04-07, 02:04 PM	Vow of Poverty, one of the oddest feats from the Book of Exalted Deeds ah, ok. that makes sence. I remember Vow of Poverty... I love that feat :-) I still dunno what a Birth feat is. I mean, I can assume a certian amount based on the name, but.... are they from a book I should know about? are there any general paramiters they follow? anything like that?
Yue Ryong 03-04-07, 04:51 PM	'Birth' feats are more often called 'Heritage' feats. They're any feat that can only be taken at first level, as they represent something intrinsic to the character's nature, rather than training and development.
olshanski_home 03-04-07, 05:00 PM	blindsight is way overpowered at +0 LA. If you are going to give blind characters a ridiculously powerful ability, like blindsight, then where is the handicap? "oh, poor me, I am handicapped, having no legs, I am unable to walk. Its kind of nice that I have a natural fly speed of 60 to compensate." Blinded: The character cannot see. He takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class, loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any), moves at half speed, and takes a –4 penalty on Search checks and on most Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks. All checks and activities that rely on vision (such as reading and Spot checks) automatically fail. All opponents are considered to have total concealment (50% miss chance) to the blinded character. Characters who remain blinded for a long time grow accustomed to these drawbacks and can overcome some of them. Looking at the rules, lets consider what is reasonable for a long-term person to overcome: perhaps in the long term they lose the penalty to AC and can keep dex bonus to AC. let them move at full speed and lose the penalty on STR and DEX based skill checks. Perhaps cut the miss chance to 33% which can be lowered to 16% with a blind-fight feat (IE: miss due to concealment 2/6 of the time, or with the blind-fight feat this can be reduced to 1/6). So this character will have a handicap (a miss chance) and they automatically fail spot checks and reading checks, and in exchange they cannot be blinded, they are immune to illusions and spells relying on sight, they have a big advantage against creatures with displacement or mirror images. They are much better in fog or bad lighting conditions than normal people. This seems a reasonable +0 LA for a long-term blindness.
JarionSilverblades 03-04-07, 05:53 PM	This Template needs to be similar to the Fiendish template, what I mean by that it should provide more benefits as the character increases in HD, the trick is giving Characters benifits without the LA.
Fiendishfiend 03-04-07, 06:04 PM	Update: I added the ability adjustments, lowered just how far the blindsight can extend, and put in the blind sense. I didn't even think about incorporeal creatures when I made this template. Should I have that at 10 ECL the blindsense becomes a lesser soulsense and so that way they can see incorporeal creatures in a range of half thier blindsight range.Thus at 11 lvl they creature would have blindsight 30 ft, and can see ghosts within 15 ft
GSonic7 03-04-07, 06:05 PM	This Template needs to be similar to the Fiendish template, what I mean by that it should provide more benefits as the character increases in HD, the trick is giving Characters benifits without the LA. I still don't think that this should be a template. Templates, imho, are supposed to be about who (or what) the creature was born to, not when they were born. That's why I think it should be a Birth Feat. If you want to make up for it taking up a feat slot, make the 1 HD benefit a bonus feat.
Silverthumb128 03-04-07, 06:13 PM	Just take Blind-Fight, then Hear the Unseen(Complete Adventurer), and Blindsight(Sword & Fist). There ya go, a blind character that is viable by RAW, and still isn't bad.
olshanski_home 03-05-07, 01:46 PM	Update: I added the ability adjustments, lowered just how far the blindsight can extend, and put in the blind sense. I didn't even think about incorporeal creatures when I made this template. Should I have that at 10 ECL the blindsense becomes a lesser soulsense and so that way they can see incorporeal creatures in a range of half thier blindsight range.Thus at 11 lvl they creature would have blindsight 30 ft, and can see ghosts within 15 ft At least LA +1. Would anyone choose to be able to see, (vulnerable to gaze attacks, vulnearble to sneak attacks by invisible creatures, etcetera)... when instead they could have blindsight, immunity to illusions, immunity to gaze attacks, and so on.