Bugbears!!! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bugbears!!! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
EdrickTheGreat
02-11-08, 04:43 PM In the past few months I've realized that I love bugbears. They're freaking amazing. Guile and Strength, its a perfect combo. I've played a barbarian and a fighter-rogue, but I want something more. The people I play with can't see my obsession, and I wanna prove that bugbears can play just about any role (with-in reason of course). This June I'm begining a campaign with bugbears as one of the more common races, and I need to find multiple efficient builds for some NPCs. Does anyone have any ideas for things that wouldn't be so cliche? One I've started working on was a Rogue/Paladin. Anyways, I'm just seeing what other people might have done, or things that people have been thinking about doing.
mtbOgre
02-11-08, 05:23 PM In the past few months I've realized that I love bugbears. They're freaking amazing. Guile and Strength, its a perfect combo. I've played a barbarian and a fighter-rogue, but I want something more. The people I play with can't see my obsession, and I wanna prove that bugbears can play just about any role (with-in reason of course). This June I'm begining a campaign with bugbears as one of the more common races, and I need to find multiple efficient builds for some NPCs. Does anyone have any ideas for things that wouldn't be so cliche? One I've started working on was a Rogue/Paladin. Anyways, I'm just seeing what other people might have done, or things that people have been thinking about doing.

The problem is that blasted +LA. It's not as bad as LA is for many races but still cripples them a little. They get 3HD to start, plus their stat bonuses kick butt on most +1LA critters than I know of.

The only problem I see is the - to CHA makes them weak sorcerers.

Psionic warrior would be a good one if you use psionics. Seems like they would make good rangers also.

Another thought. Make a Melee focused Druid. The Bite of the-- series plays right into his strengths and boosts some of his weaknesses. His HP will be much higher than your typical druid especially with a nice high CON. Give him the frenzied berserker variant from UA and he'll one nasty SOB in a dark alley.
EdrickTheGreat
02-11-08, 05:27 PM I play with anything. They might be bad sorcerers but, with magic items, couldn't that be overlooked? I generally dont let any original scores over 16 anyways, just to keep things rather balanced.
ToastedAmphibian
02-11-08, 05:28 PM Eh, for my +4 ECL id rather get +30 jump check and 4 arms...
EdrickTheGreat
02-11-08, 05:41 PM Eh, for my +4 ECL id rather get +30 jump check and 4 arms...

What?..
StruckingFuggle
02-11-08, 06:05 PM He's referring to the non-Psionic(? Or is that one +3?) Thri-Kreen.
EdrickTheGreat
02-11-08, 06:13 PM He's referring to the non-Psionic(? Or is that one +3?) Thri-Kreen.
Oh
mtbOgre
02-11-08, 06:40 PM Eh, for my +4 ECL id rather get +30 jump check and 4 arms...

Oh buggerit....

For some reason I was thinking the three levels of humanoid came with the +1LA...
RobbyPants
02-11-08, 10:25 PM Well, if you're willing to eat the LA (and RHD), and don't mind your power level compared to other equal ECL characters, then your imagination is the limit.

Obiously (as mentioned), any class dependent on Cha will suffer, such as sorcerer, paladin, and bard. The strong physical stats help to compensate though. While not much incentive to play a sorcerer, they outweigh the Cha penalty enough to still make you a good paladin.

I'd avoid a caster, not because of the Cha penalty, but because you're for caster levels behind other casters. When you're slinging around 3rd level spells, they'll be slinging 5th level spells. You could take Practiced Spellcaster to let your RHD count as class levels for determining level-based effects on your spells, but it still won't help you in terms of the highest level spell you can cast.
StruckingFuggle
02-11-08, 10:28 PM You could take Practiced Spellcaster to let your RHD count as class levels for determining level-based effects on your spells
I... don't think Practiced Spellcaster works like that. Does it?

but it still won't help you in terms of the highest level spell you can cast.
Or spells/day.
EdrickTheGreat
02-11-08, 10:36 PM I'd avoid a caster, not because of the Cha penalty, but because you're for caster levels behind other casters. When you're slinging around 3rd level spells, they'll be slinging 5th level spells. You could take Practiced Spellcaster to let your RHD count as class levels for determining level-based effects on your spells, but it still won't help you in terms of the highest level spell you can cast.

What book is that in?
ciaran
02-12-08, 01:07 AM Is it in both Complete Divine and Complete Arcane?
MrWildman
02-12-08, 02:35 AM I'm pretty sure Practiced Spellcaster is in either Complete Arcane or Complete Mage, one of those feats that help offset ECL or multiclass penalties.

Finally, a playable D20 representation of that familiar Grimm Tales trope: The third Little Pig with the obviously higher CR! :rimshot: thank you, thank you, don't forget to tip your waitress

Anyway,

I've been a total bugbear fan since AD&D days and that first Monster Manual illustration. That big round head, those flat features, the magnificent fur coat! What reasonable man could resist? I remember the "Official" bugbear figure from Grenadier Miniatures matched the MM picture almost exactly. Admittedly, the MM bugbear's pose was basically a mug shot. ("Turn t'yore left!")
Big and tough and sneaky, too. And hairy, don't forget hairy. Associations of Wookies and Silverback Gorillas, Sasquatches and Neanderthals. My players began to comment on the surprising number of parties ambushed by pumpkin-headed monsters.

Duty calls. I'll post more later.

Peace.
Windspear
02-12-08, 03:14 AM A monk. With +4 STR, +2 DEX and +2 CON, you have decent HP, a high STR mod (for both hit & damage; which goes GREAT with superior unarmed strike (ToB)). You already have high reflex, so that's gonna be high all the way. The +3 NA helps for AC, as well as the +2 DEX (coupled with WIS for which you have no penalties).
That would totally rock.
RobbyPants
02-12-08, 06:51 AM I... don't think Practiced Spellcaster works like that. Does it?
My understanding is it works exactly like that, unless there's some inherent difference between "Hit Dice" and racial hit dice. The feat states that you get +4 to your caster level, to a max of your Hit Dice. So, by my understanding, a level one bugbear wizard with Practiced Spellcaster would have a caster level of four, but would only get the spells per day of a 1st level wizard.

Of course, I feel the latter is the more important part, so a bugbear caster would still be way behind an equal ECL caster of a standard race.

What book is that in?
Is it in both Complete Divine and Complete Arcane?
Both Complete Arcane and Complete Divine.
mtbOgre
02-12-08, 01:50 PM I'd avoid a caster, not because of the Cha penalty, but because you're for caster levels behind other casters. When you're slinging around 3rd level spells, they'll be slinging 5th level spells. You could take Practiced Spellcaster to let your RHD count as class levels for determining level-based effects on your spells, but it still won't help you in terms of the highest level spell you can cast.
Well he was talking about using them as enemies not as a player character.

Edrick:
Check out the section on adding character levels to monsters:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#addingClassLevels (Also in the MM or DMG somewhere)
When figuring the CR for a bugbear with Fighter, Rogue, or Ranger levels the CR should be 2+ the Class Level

When figuring the CR for a BugBear with Spellcaster classes the CR should be 2+ ½ class level.

Any of these calculations for CR are limited in usefulness, for example a Bugbear Sorcerer 3 is CR 3 which is on the low side. Maybe use the CR formula above or Class Level + LA whichever is greater.

I'm going to try and cook up a nasty bugbear gish sorcerer or druid to see how it works, I'll post it here when I'm done.
EdrickTheGreat
02-12-08, 05:05 PM Thanks Ogre!
ciaran
02-12-08, 06:17 PM When figuring the CR for a BugBear with Spellcaster classes the CR should be 2+ ½ class level.

I don't have it in front of me, but isn't there a point, such as when the class levels exceed the racial HD, that the half levels become whole levels?
mtbOgre
02-12-08, 08:22 PM I don't have it in front of me, but isn't there a point, such as when the class levels exceed the racial HD, that the half levels become whole levels?

Ahh... good catch, I had to reread it.
Adding a nonassociated class level to a monster increases its CR by ½ per level until one of its nonassociated class levels equals its original Hit Dice. At that point, each additional level of the same class or a similar one is considered associated and increases the monster’s CR by 1.

So a Bugbear Sorc 4 is CR4? Or CR5 because of the +LA? 5 makes more sense.
StruckingFuggle
02-12-08, 11:33 PM My understanding is it works exactly like that, unless there's some inherent difference between "Hit Dice" and racial hit dice. The feat states that you get +4 to your caster level, to a max of your Hit Dice. So, by my understanding, a level one bugbear wizard with Practiced Spellcaster would have a caster level of four, but would only get the spells per day of a 1st level wizard.

Well, yeah.

It's just, the way you phrased it, ... oh. I don't know if you were trying to skirt the CoC or what, but it just sounded like you were saying it did something different, even if its mostly the same. Semantics. *shrug*
ff6shadow
02-13-08, 01:00 AM A bugbear sorcerer 4 is CR 4.5, so I'd run it as a tough 4. Athough you could run it as an easy 5.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
EdrickTheGreat 02-11-08, 04:43 PM	In the past few months I've realized that I love bugbears. They're freaking amazing. Guile and Strength, its a perfect combo. I've played a barbarian and a fighter-rogue, but I want something more. The people I play with can't see my obsession, and I wanna prove that bugbears can play just about any role (with-in reason of course). This June I'm begining a campaign with bugbears as one of the more common races, and I need to find multiple efficient builds for some NPCs. Does anyone have any ideas for things that wouldn't be so cliche? One I've started working on was a Rogue/Paladin. Anyways, I'm just seeing what other people might have done, or things that people have been thinking about doing.
mtbOgre 02-11-08, 05:23 PM	In the past few months I've realized that I love bugbears. They're freaking amazing. Guile and Strength, its a perfect combo. I've played a barbarian and a fighter-rogue, but I want something more. The people I play with can't see my obsession, and I wanna prove that bugbears can play just about any role (with-in reason of course). This June I'm begining a campaign with bugbears as one of the more common races, and I need to find multiple efficient builds for some NPCs. Does anyone have any ideas for things that wouldn't be so cliche? One I've started working on was a Rogue/Paladin. Anyways, I'm just seeing what other people might have done, or things that people have been thinking about doing. The problem is that blasted +LA. It's not as bad as LA is for many races but still cripples them a little. They get 3HD to start, plus their stat bonuses kick butt on most +1LA critters than I know of. The only problem I see is the - to CHA makes them weak sorcerers. Psionic warrior would be a good one if you use psionics. Seems like they would make good rangers also. Another thought. Make a Melee focused Druid. The Bite of the-- series plays right into his strengths and boosts some of his weaknesses. His HP will be much higher than your typical druid especially with a nice high CON. Give him the frenzied berserker variant from UA and he'll one nasty SOB in a dark alley.
EdrickTheGreat 02-11-08, 05:27 PM	I play with anything. They might be bad sorcerers but, with magic items, couldn't that be overlooked? I generally dont let any original scores over 16 anyways, just to keep things rather balanced.
ToastedAmphibian 02-11-08, 05:28 PM	Eh, for my +4 ECL id rather get +30 jump check and 4 arms...
EdrickTheGreat 02-11-08, 05:41 PM	Eh, for my +4 ECL id rather get +30 jump check and 4 arms... What?..
StruckingFuggle 02-11-08, 06:05 PM	He's referring to the non-Psionic(? Or is that one +3?) Thri-Kreen.
EdrickTheGreat 02-11-08, 06:13 PM	He's referring to the non-Psionic(? Or is that one +3?) Thri-Kreen. Oh
mtbOgre 02-11-08, 06:40 PM	Eh, for my +4 ECL id rather get +30 jump check and 4 arms... Oh buggerit.... For some reason I was thinking the three levels of humanoid came with the +1LA...
RobbyPants 02-11-08, 10:25 PM	Well, if you're willing to eat the LA (and RHD), and don't mind your power level compared to other equal ECL characters, then your imagination is the limit. Obiously (as mentioned), any class dependent on Cha will suffer, such as sorcerer, paladin, and bard. The strong physical stats help to compensate though. While not much incentive to play a sorcerer, they outweigh the Cha penalty enough to still make you a good paladin. I'd avoid a caster, not because of the Cha penalty, but because you're for caster levels behind other casters. When you're slinging around 3rd level spells, they'll be slinging 5th level spells. You could take Practiced Spellcaster to let your RHD count as class levels for determining level-based effects on your spells, but it still won't help you in terms of the highest level spell you can cast.
StruckingFuggle 02-11-08, 10:28 PM	You could take Practiced Spellcaster to let your RHD count as class levels for determining level-based effects on your spells I... don't think Practiced Spellcaster works like that. Does it? but it still won't help you in terms of the highest level spell you can cast. Or spells/day.
EdrickTheGreat 02-11-08, 10:36 PM	I'd avoid a caster, not because of the Cha penalty, but because you're for caster levels behind other casters. When you're slinging around 3rd level spells, they'll be slinging 5th level spells. You could take Practiced Spellcaster to let your RHD count as class levels for determining level-based effects on your spells, but it still won't help you in terms of the highest level spell you can cast. What book is that in?
ciaran 02-12-08, 01:07 AM	Is it in both Complete Divine and Complete Arcane?
MrWildman 02-12-08, 02:35 AM	I'm pretty sure Practiced Spellcaster is in either Complete Arcane or Complete Mage, one of those feats that help offset ECL or multiclass penalties. Finally, a playable D20 representation of that familiar Grimm Tales trope: The third Little Pig with the obviously higher CR! :rimshot: thank you, thank you, don't forget to tip your waitress Anyway, I've been a total bugbear fan since AD&D days and that first Monster Manual illustration. That big round head, those flat features, the magnificent fur coat! What reasonable man could resist? I remember the "Official" bugbear figure from Grenadier Miniatures matched the MM picture almost exactly. Admittedly, the MM bugbear's pose was basically a mug shot. ("Turn t'yore left!") Big and tough and sneaky, too. And hairy, don't forget hairy. Associations of Wookies and Silverback Gorillas, Sasquatches and Neanderthals. My players began to comment on the surprising number of parties ambushed by pumpkin-headed monsters. Duty calls. I'll post more later. Peace.
Windspear 02-12-08, 03:14 AM	A monk. With +4 STR, +2 DEX and +2 CON, you have decent HP, a high STR mod (for both hit & damage; which goes GREAT with superior unarmed strike (ToB)). You already have high reflex, so that's gonna be high all the way. The +3 NA helps for AC, as well as the +2 DEX (coupled with WIS for which you have no penalties). That would totally rock.
RobbyPants 02-12-08, 06:51 AM	I... don't think Practiced Spellcaster works like that. Does it? My understanding is it works exactly like that, unless there's some inherent difference between "Hit Dice" and racial hit dice. The feat states that you get +4 to your caster level, to a max of your Hit Dice. So, by my understanding, a level one bugbear wizard with Practiced Spellcaster would have a caster level of four, but would only get the spells per day of a 1st level wizard. Of course, I feel the latter is the more important part, so a bugbear caster would still be way behind an equal ECL caster of a standard race. What book is that in? Is it in both Complete Divine and Complete Arcane? Both Complete Arcane and Complete Divine.
mtbOgre 02-12-08, 01:50 PM	I'd avoid a caster, not because of the Cha penalty, but because you're for caster levels behind other casters. When you're slinging around 3rd level spells, they'll be slinging 5th level spells. You could take Practiced Spellcaster to let your RHD count as class levels for determining level-based effects on your spells, but it still won't help you in terms of the highest level spell you can cast. Well he was talking about using them as enemies not as a player character. Edrick: Check out the section on adding character levels to monsters: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#addingClassLevels (Also in the MM or DMG somewhere) When figuring the CR for a bugbear with Fighter, Rogue, or Ranger levels the CR should be 2+ the Class Level When figuring the CR for a BugBear with Spellcaster classes the CR should be 2+ ½ class level. Any of these calculations for CR are limited in usefulness, for example a Bugbear Sorcerer 3 is CR 3 which is on the low side. Maybe use the CR formula above or Class Level + LA whichever is greater. I'm going to try and cook up a nasty bugbear gish sorcerer or druid to see how it works, I'll post it here when I'm done.
EdrickTheGreat 02-12-08, 05:05 PM	Thanks Ogre!
ciaran 02-12-08, 06:17 PM	When figuring the CR for a BugBear with Spellcaster classes the CR should be 2+ ½ class level. I don't have it in front of me, but isn't there a point, such as when the class levels exceed the racial HD, that the half levels become whole levels?
mtbOgre 02-12-08, 08:22 PM	I don't have it in front of me, but isn't there a point, such as when the class levels exceed the racial HD, that the half levels become whole levels? Ahh... good catch, I had to reread it. Adding a nonassociated class level to a monster increases its CR by ½ per level until one of its nonassociated class levels equals its original Hit Dice. At that point, each additional level of the same class or a similar one is considered associated and increases the monster’s CR by 1. So a Bugbear Sorc 4 is CR4? Or CR5 because of the +LA? 5 makes more sense.
StruckingFuggle 02-12-08, 11:33 PM	My understanding is it works exactly like that, unless there's some inherent difference between "Hit Dice" and racial hit dice. The feat states that you get +4 to your caster level, to a max of your Hit Dice. So, by my understanding, a level one bugbear wizard with Practiced Spellcaster would have a caster level of four, but would only get the spells per day of a 1st level wizard. Well, yeah. It's just, the way you phrased it, ... oh. I don't know if you were trying to skirt the CoC or what, but it just sounded like you were saying it did something different, even if its mostly the same. Semantics. shrug
ff6shadow 02-13-08, 01:00 AM	A bugbear sorcerer 4 is CR 4.5, so I'd run it as a tough 4. Athough you could run it as an easy 5.