Building a +0 Level adjustment Centaur [PEACH] [Archive] - Wizards Community

Building a +0 Level adjustment Centaur [PEACH] [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Harleaquinn
07-30-07, 12:40 AM I have recently set out to create a +0 level adjustment Centaur race. I am trying to balance it out in comparison to all other +0 level adjustment races, and would like any and all comments and critique.

+2 Strength -2 Intelligence. Centaurs are strong of body, if not allways swift of mind.

Centaurs are Monstrous Humanoids, instead of Humanoids. This gives them the darkvision trait to a range of 60 feet, and proficiency is simple weapons, regardless of class.

Size: Medium (However see tauric body)

Tauric Body: Even though a centaur is a medium creature, they have a rather large and lower body. They must pay three times as much for armor when in a community that isnt use to making centaur sized armor. Due to the sheer amount of coverage needed, even in a centaur community armor costs twice as much as usual. In addition, a centaur gains certain other benefits and penalties due to their size. They suffer a -1 penalty to their armor class, and a -4 penalty to hide checks. They recieve a +2 bonus on all bull rush and overrun attempts, and a +2 bonus on all checks to resist being tripped. A centaur can also carry double the normal weight for a creature of its size.

Quadraped

+4 racial bonus on jump checks. The centaurs equine physique makes it ideal for running, though their humanoids torso slows them down greatly.

-8 Penalty to Climb checks due to their awkward body and build

Base land speed of 30 feet. However when charging or running they count their land speed as if it were 20 feet higher then it is.

+1 Natural armor bonus (This can go the way of the dodo if it must also)

Favored Class: Ranger

i know this is pretty plane so far, so anyone got any comments?
Crimson_Concerto
07-30-07, 12:50 AM I'll be the first to complain about your racial ability modifiers. They are not balanced at all for a LA +0 race, AND -2 DEX makes no sense for centaurs. I would suggest +2 DEX, -2 INT. The STR bonus centaurs usually get only really come from their size, and you're downplaying that a lot, so it can just go, I think. Though, I would just go ahead and make the race medium size, honestly, much easier...
DM Zoc
07-30-07, 12:50 AM I'm not entirely certain about most of the abilities, but I am pretty sure it would be much more balanced at +2 strength than +4.

The +2 bonus to jump seems slightly powerful, since they already get a +4 bonus on the merit of their land speed. It's surprising how many different combat feats (powerful ones, at that) require you to make a jump check.
IdleAltruism
07-30-07, 12:51 AM I've never seen a large creature with less then a LA +2 adjustment. The best you're going to get is LA +1 with powerful build.

I wouldn't suggest trying to adjust premade races. Make your own race. If you want a horseman type race, make one.

Also there are level progressions for the centaur to play them from level 1 through their entire racial HD and LA.
runestar
07-30-07, 12:53 AM I would say to make it medium sized, reduce the land speed to 30ft (but maybe give it a speed bonus while running/charging), and remove the natural attacks. Change the ability modifiers to +2str, -2int and give it the stability trait as well (as per the dwarven special ability, since they have 4 legs).
Harleaquinn
07-30-07, 01:03 AM Okay wow, that was a lot of replies fast.

Okay, so even though this race is weaker then a goliath its still way too strong? I tried basing it off of the goliath and the minotaur from dragonlance to be a judge of power.

I definitely want it to remain large if and at all possible, they centaurs after all, and while I may think they should need to use medium sized weapons, i dont want them to be pony people.

And yes I know how the savage progression works. My goal though is for a +0 level adjustment version of the race.

I allways assumed the main reason large cost so much from a level adjustment point of view was the bigger weapons factor. This is a race that has additional penalties over the +1 level adjustment races with powerful build. For example they arent using large weapons, and they take the -1 to attacks, armor class etc.

However, thank you for the critique so far, anything else?

I will try my hardest to balance this race out.
IdleAltruism
07-30-07, 01:30 AM You really can't make a large race with an ECL +0. My advice is to either stick to the actual centaur or make a race like half-ogre with LA+2 large size.
Rerecros
07-30-07, 01:32 AM A large creature without the extra reach is perfectly acceptable as LA+0.

Barding wouldn't work as armor for centaurs cause everything above the waist would be exposed. They would just have a large and unusual body type. But in a centaur village, It wouldn't cost extra for the unusual body shape.
Harleaquinn
07-30-07, 01:40 AM A large creature without the extra reach is perfectly acceptable as LA+0.

Barding wouldn't work as armor for centaurs cause everything above the waist would be exposed. They would just have a large and unusual body type. But in a centaur village, It wouldn't cost extra for the unusual body shape.

Added
runestar
07-30-07, 02:58 AM The large size in this case is mostly a liability, since you do not get the ability to wield larger weapons or better reach. You do get better opposed rolls on size-related checks, so it seems like a fair tradeoff.

That was why I suggested that they be medium - the tauric trait just irks me for some reason.
Harleaquinn
07-30-07, 08:21 AM I just dont like the idea of shrinking the centaur down to size. Is there any precedense for a medium sized creature to be the size of a large? Goliaths and Half giants push it, as do Minotaurs. Is there any other equally large critters out there? If there is, I'd gladly give them a different trait.

----
Something like:

Centaurs have the ability to carry double the normal load size for a medium sized creature. This is in addition to the bonus for being a quadraped.

Due to the size of their equine size, they suffer a -1 penalty to armor class.

A Centaurs size grants him a +2 bonus on all bull rush and overrun attempts, as well as attempts to resist being tripped.
----

How does that sound?
RobbyPants
07-30-07, 09:39 AM Well, that would certainly pull down the power level a bit. It looks like you're only applying half of the benifits of being large, and applying most of the penalties. Would that rule of yours have them using medium or large weapons?
The_Shaman
07-30-07, 09:41 AM I would prefer going for the Centaur monster progression from Savage Species. Has anyone tried using it? IMO centaurs are pretty cool, but the racial HD and LA make it a bit hard for players to use.
Harleaquinn
07-30-07, 10:01 AM They would definitely be using medium sized weapons.

I never thought that it made sense for them to be using large sized weapons.

I'll graft on my current changes, see what people think.
Harleaquinn
07-30-07, 10:10 AM Reposting for those who have not noticed I've been editing the original.

+2 Strength -2 Intelligence. Centaurs are strong of body, if not allways swift of mind.

Centaurs are Monstrous Humanoids, instead of Humanoids. This gives them the darkvision trait to a range of 60 feet, and proficiency is simple weapons, regardless of class.

Size: Medium (However see tauric body)

Tauric Body: Even though a centaur is a medium creature, they have a rather large and lower body. They must pay three times as much for armor when in a community that isnt use to making centaur sized armor. Due to the sheer amount of coverage needed, even in a centaur community armor costs twice as much as usual. In addition, a centaur gains certain other benefits and penalties due to their size. They suffer a -1 penalty to their armor class, and a -4 penalty to hide checks. They recieve a +2 bonus on all bull rush and overrun attempts, and a +2 bonus on all checks to resist being tripped. A centaur can also carry double the normal weight for a creature of its size.

Quadraped

+4 racial bonus on jump checks. The centaurs equine physique makes it ideal for running, though their humanoids torso slows them down greatly.

-8 Penalty to Climb checks due to their awkward body and build

Base land speed of 30 feet. However when charging or running they count their land speed as if it were 20 feet higher then it is.

+1 Natural armor bonus (This can go the way of the dodo if it must also)

Favored Class: Ranger
Harleaquinn
07-30-07, 10:14 AM I would prefer going for the Centaur monster progression from Savage Species. Has anyone tried using it? IMO centaurs are pretty cool, but the racial HD and LA make it a bit hard for players to use.

I've done the savage progression, and it really is quite strong, I play a centaur Fighter with a few levels of druid(4). Quite fun. Very strong though, as i quickly outpaced our parties half orc barbarian.
RobbyPants
07-30-07, 11:48 AM I'd probably do away with the +1 natural armor. It's stronger than some people realize. However, here is another option you could try:

Give them a +2 Armor bonus to AC, which does not stack with other bonuses. Allow them to take a feat at 1st level that switches this to a natural armor bonus. I've seen a similar thing done for a LA +0 minotuar before.
Grod_The_Giant
07-30-07, 11:54 AM yeah, I'd say drop the NA bonus too. It doesn't really make sense for a half horse.
Harleaquinn
07-30-07, 02:36 PM I'd probably do away with the +1 natural armor. It's stronger than some people realize. However, here is another option you could try:

Give them a +2 Armor bonus to AC, which does not stack with other bonuses. Allow them to take a feat at 1st level that switches this to a natural armor bonus. I've seen a similar thing done for a LA +0 minotuar before.

I thought the +1 natural armor bonus was fine, considering they take a guranteed -1 penalty, and since natural armor bonuses dont stack they are still netting a penalty overtime. As for the +2 armor bonus, i dont see how that can possible be a method of toning them down. They arent warforged.

As for a natural armor bonus for a half horse. horses (all of em) and centaurs both have a natural armor bonus. Hell even a pony has a +2 bonus.

Again thank you all so far.

This is coming along nicely.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Harleaquinn 07-30-07, 12:40 AM	I have recently set out to create a +0 level adjustment Centaur race. I am trying to balance it out in comparison to all other +0 level adjustment races, and would like any and all comments and critique. +2 Strength -2 Intelligence. Centaurs are strong of body, if not allways swift of mind. Centaurs are Monstrous Humanoids, instead of Humanoids. This gives them the darkvision trait to a range of 60 feet, and proficiency is simple weapons, regardless of class. Size: Medium (However see tauric body) Tauric Body: Even though a centaur is a medium creature, they have a rather large and lower body. They must pay three times as much for armor when in a community that isnt use to making centaur sized armor. Due to the sheer amount of coverage needed, even in a centaur community armor costs twice as much as usual. In addition, a centaur gains certain other benefits and penalties due to their size. They suffer a -1 penalty to their armor class, and a -4 penalty to hide checks. They recieve a +2 bonus on all bull rush and overrun attempts, and a +2 bonus on all checks to resist being tripped. A centaur can also carry double the normal weight for a creature of its size. Quadraped +4 racial bonus on jump checks. The centaurs equine physique makes it ideal for running, though their humanoids torso slows them down greatly. -8 Penalty to Climb checks due to their awkward body and build Base land speed of 30 feet. However when charging or running they count their land speed as if it were 20 feet higher then it is. +1 Natural armor bonus (This can go the way of the dodo if it must also) Favored Class: Ranger i know this is pretty plane so far, so anyone got any comments?
Crimson_Concerto 07-30-07, 12:50 AM	I'll be the first to complain about your racial ability modifiers. They are not balanced at all for a LA +0 race, AND -2 DEX makes no sense for centaurs. I would suggest +2 DEX, -2 INT. The STR bonus centaurs usually get only really come from their size, and you're downplaying that a lot, so it can just go, I think. Though, I would just go ahead and make the race medium size, honestly, much easier...
DM Zoc 07-30-07, 12:50 AM	I'm not entirely certain about most of the abilities, but I am pretty sure it would be much more balanced at +2 strength than +4. The +2 bonus to jump seems slightly powerful, since they already get a +4 bonus on the merit of their land speed. It's surprising how many different combat feats (powerful ones, at that) require you to make a jump check.
IdleAltruism 07-30-07, 12:51 AM	I've never seen a large creature with less then a LA +2 adjustment. The best you're going to get is LA +1 with powerful build. I wouldn't suggest trying to adjust premade races. Make your own race. If you want a horseman type race, make one. Also there are level progressions for the centaur to play them from level 1 through their entire racial HD and LA.
runestar 07-30-07, 12:53 AM	I would say to make it medium sized, reduce the land speed to 30ft (but maybe give it a speed bonus while running/charging), and remove the natural attacks. Change the ability modifiers to +2str, -2int and give it the stability trait as well (as per the dwarven special ability, since they have 4 legs).
Harleaquinn 07-30-07, 01:03 AM	Okay wow, that was a lot of replies fast. Okay, so even though this race is weaker then a goliath its still way too strong? I tried basing it off of the goliath and the minotaur from dragonlance to be a judge of power. I definitely want it to remain large if and at all possible, they centaurs after all, and while I may think they should need to use medium sized weapons, i dont want them to be pony people. And yes I know how the savage progression works. My goal though is for a +0 level adjustment version of the race. I allways assumed the main reason large cost so much from a level adjustment point of view was the bigger weapons factor. This is a race that has additional penalties over the +1 level adjustment races with powerful build. For example they arent using large weapons, and they take the -1 to attacks, armor class etc. However, thank you for the critique so far, anything else? I will try my hardest to balance this race out.
IdleAltruism 07-30-07, 01:30 AM	You really can't make a large race with an ECL +0. My advice is to either stick to the actual centaur or make a race like half-ogre with LA+2 large size.
Rerecros 07-30-07, 01:32 AM	A large creature without the extra reach is perfectly acceptable as LA+0. Barding wouldn't work as armor for centaurs cause everything above the waist would be exposed. They would just have a large and unusual body type. But in a centaur village, It wouldn't cost extra for the unusual body shape.
Harleaquinn 07-30-07, 01:40 AM	A large creature without the extra reach is perfectly acceptable as LA+0. Barding wouldn't work as armor for centaurs cause everything above the waist would be exposed. They would just have a large and unusual body type. But in a centaur village, It wouldn't cost extra for the unusual body shape. Added
runestar 07-30-07, 02:58 AM	The large size in this case is mostly a liability, since you do not get the ability to wield larger weapons or better reach. You do get better opposed rolls on size-related checks, so it seems like a fair tradeoff. That was why I suggested that they be medium - the tauric trait just irks me for some reason.
Harleaquinn 07-30-07, 08:21 AM	I just dont like the idea of shrinking the centaur down to size. Is there any precedense for a medium sized creature to be the size of a large? Goliaths and Half giants push it, as do Minotaurs. Is there any other equally large critters out there? If there is, I'd gladly give them a different trait. ---- Something like: Centaurs have the ability to carry double the normal load size for a medium sized creature. This is in addition to the bonus for being a quadraped. Due to the size of their equine size, they suffer a -1 penalty to armor class. A Centaurs size grants him a +2 bonus on all bull rush and overrun attempts, as well as attempts to resist being tripped. ---- How does that sound?
RobbyPants 07-30-07, 09:39 AM	Well, that would certainly pull down the power level a bit. It looks like you're only applying half of the benifits of being large, and applying most of the penalties. Would that rule of yours have them using medium or large weapons?
The_Shaman 07-30-07, 09:41 AM	I would prefer going for the Centaur monster progression from Savage Species. Has anyone tried using it? IMO centaurs are pretty cool, but the racial HD and LA make it a bit hard for players to use.
Harleaquinn 07-30-07, 10:01 AM	They would definitely be using medium sized weapons. I never thought that it made sense for them to be using large sized weapons. I'll graft on my current changes, see what people think.
Harleaquinn 07-30-07, 10:10 AM	Reposting for those who have not noticed I've been editing the original. +2 Strength -2 Intelligence. Centaurs are strong of body, if not allways swift of mind. Centaurs are Monstrous Humanoids, instead of Humanoids. This gives them the darkvision trait to a range of 60 feet, and proficiency is simple weapons, regardless of class. Size: Medium (However see tauric body) Tauric Body: Even though a centaur is a medium creature, they have a rather large and lower body. They must pay three times as much for armor when in a community that isnt use to making centaur sized armor. Due to the sheer amount of coverage needed, even in a centaur community armor costs twice as much as usual. In addition, a centaur gains certain other benefits and penalties due to their size. They suffer a -1 penalty to their armor class, and a -4 penalty to hide checks. They recieve a +2 bonus on all bull rush and overrun attempts, and a +2 bonus on all checks to resist being tripped. A centaur can also carry double the normal weight for a creature of its size. Quadraped +4 racial bonus on jump checks. The centaurs equine physique makes it ideal for running, though their humanoids torso slows them down greatly. -8 Penalty to Climb checks due to their awkward body and build Base land speed of 30 feet. However when charging or running they count their land speed as if it were 20 feet higher then it is. +1 Natural armor bonus (This can go the way of the dodo if it must also) Favored Class: Ranger
Harleaquinn 07-30-07, 10:14 AM	I would prefer going for the Centaur monster progression from Savage Species. Has anyone tried using it? IMO centaurs are pretty cool, but the racial HD and LA make it a bit hard for players to use. I've done the savage progression, and it really is quite strong, I play a centaur Fighter with a few levels of druid(4). Quite fun. Very strong though, as i quickly outpaced our parties half orc barbarian.
RobbyPants 07-30-07, 11:48 AM	I'd probably do away with the +1 natural armor. It's stronger than some people realize. However, here is another option you could try: Give them a +2 Armor bonus to AC, which does not stack with other bonuses. Allow them to take a feat at 1st level that switches this to a natural armor bonus. I've seen a similar thing done for a LA +0 minotuar before.
Grod_The_Giant 07-30-07, 11:54 AM	yeah, I'd say drop the NA bonus too. It doesn't really make sense for a half horse.
Harleaquinn 07-30-07, 02:36 PM	I'd probably do away with the +1 natural armor. It's stronger than some people realize. However, here is another option you could try: Give them a +2 Armor bonus to AC, which does not stack with other bonuses. Allow them to take a feat at 1st level that switches this to a natural armor bonus. I've seen a similar thing done for a LA +0 minotuar before. I thought the +1 natural armor bonus was fine, considering they take a guranteed -1 penalty, and since natural armor bonuses dont stack they are still netting a penalty overtime. As for the +2 armor bonus, i dont see how that can possible be a method of toning them down. They arent warforged. As for a natural armor bonus for a half horse. horses (all of em) and centaurs both have a natural armor bonus. Hell even a pony has a +2 bonus. Again thank you all so far. This is coming along nicely.