Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Poison_Dusk 04-12-07, 01:14 AM	Cambion demons, found Here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070411a), have to be the worst monstrous race to ever attempt to be playable. With a net -3 to stats(-10 CH?!), all they really get is 6 outsider hit dice (not that bad), and one alternate form. With a +4LA you have an 11th level character that can sneak around in full plate, but could not interact with any NPCs. With a CHA like that you could not intimidate a gopher. Am I alone with this line of thought or am I just missing some big bonus they have?
Kazeofwinds 04-12-07, 01:21 AM	Wow, they break their own rule about odd ability score adjustments, and make the race horrible to top it off. Seriously, they'd be mediocre with just the LA or HD as the "better" variant. Honestly, I'd probably drop the HD, Reduce the LA to +2 or +3, and use the Marqis as the base type of cambion.
runestar 04-12-07, 03:49 AM	Except that it happens to contradict the sample cambion given. I believe it is merely a problem of sloppy editing, gross oversight or perhaps both. Did you even compare this with the opening entry?:confused: This is what they should get... +8str, +6dex, +6con, +2int, -4wis, -6cha, +2NA, SLAs, dr5/good or magic, and devil immunities/resistances, for ECL10? Not that bad a deal. Mirror image at will is huge. The resistances are always nice. Sr is crap, but that is to be expected. Looks like they will make decent backup fighters. Or even primary tanks, depending on how confident you are of your mirror image ability. Outsider HD and nice class skills sure don't hurt either.
Poison_Dusk 04-12-07, 01:34 PM	Well the example would not have average scores. Just like in the MMs they use better than average examples. They really should make it clear and give us the starting stats.
El_Machinae 04-12-07, 07:47 PM	Keep in mind the suckiness when you're thinking about producing a cambion offspring!:D
YellowKnight 04-12-07, 10:16 PM	I find it funny that the "Cambions in Faerun" part says that they sometimes serve as ambassadors for demon lords.
Jaxgaret 04-12-07, 10:51 PM	I find it funny that the "Cambions in Faerun" part says that they sometimes serve as ambassadors for demon lords. Baron and Marquis Cambions are actually particularly well-suited to be ambassadors, with +10 Cha. There is something terribly wrong with the "Cambions as Characters" section. Don't even bother to use it, just go with the monstrous stat block and convert from there. They'd be pretty neat to play. This is what they should get... +8str, +6dex, +6con, +2int, -4wis, -6cha, +2NA, SLAs, dr5/good or magic, and devil immunities/resistances, for ECL10? Not that bad a deal. Mirror image at will is huge. The resistances are always nice. Sr is crap, but that is to be expected. Looks like they will make decent backup fighters. Or even primary tanks, depending on how confident you are of your mirror image ability. Outsider HD and nice class skills sure don't hurt either. Agreed. You left out telepathy though. And the 7/day invis is not shabby either (they get to pick two, go with Mirror Image + Invisibility).
sigma999 04-12-07, 11:40 PM	I find it funny that the "Cambions in Faerun" part says that they sometimes serve as ambassadors for demon lords. HA I chuckled a bit at that one but.... These poor, gruesome creatures are a powergamer delight. Think about it.... racially, their CHA score is an inborn dumbstat, forcing the munchkin to then dip the INT. This automatically makes any 'noob' with the guts to try something like this an automatic mockery of themself in any roleplay situation. DM: The peasant smiles and says "Welc-" Cambion PC: GRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA *killkillkill* The perfect 'advanced half-orc barbarian'. It's as if they are begging to be killed by paladins. Beegggggingggg!
obrysii 04-12-07, 11:51 PM	Wow. Whoever made the "Cambions as Player Races" thing has NO idea what they're doing. For example, it's ability score adjustments are as follows: +5 Str, +3 Dex, +3 Con, -4 Wis, -10 Cha 1. That's the wrong format. 2. ABILITY ADJUSTMENTS MUST BE EVEN NUMBERS! It should read as following: Str +6, Dex +4, Con +4, Wis -4, Cha -10
sigma999 04-13-07, 12:13 AM	"The idea," Graz'zt said, "is for mortals to invade the Demonweb." ... Uh, yeah? And I'm sure you'll find HORDES of them just itching to commit suicide under the claws of Lolth. OK Graz, go find yourself some Cambions, they'll probably do it for free too. Plan Invade Demonweb: fail. Why? the 'Cambion Fallacy'; an assumption that WOTC material by nature is balanced and sane. Malcanthet's wings flapped a little as she contemplated the proposal. "Mortals are unpredictable. They'll kill the Spider Queen's aspect, and then what? No one to read the Pact, no one to raise the armies of the Abyss, and no way for you and I to lead the charge against the heavens." Plan Invade Heaven: fail. Why? 1 word... army of Solars. Keep dreamin, demons. You'll end up as much a loser as Demogorgon or Orcus eventually, and PCs line up eagerly to slay your avatars. When will they get a clue or at least some common sense? Does Chaotic Evil alignment drive certain outsiders onward to suicide or do their godly INT and WIS scores have any influence here? I'm not being serious, just wondering how these fictional characters could possibly justify waging war on all of existence when, if they have any stat block at all, they can be slain. Then again, D&D never was based on reality in any fashion, so... meh.
Aetheryn 04-13-07, 12:27 AM	... So, should we pity the Cambion for sucking so much, the developer--who was obviously on something when doing the PC character section, or the people who actually use the Cambion with those horrific stats, and like it? I'm all in favor of playing a difficult class or race, but this is a hands-down 'no' for me.
runestar 04-13-07, 12:36 AM	Agreed. You left out telepathy though. And the 7/day invis is not shabby either (they get to pick two, go with Mirror Image + Invisibility). Yeah. I cut some corners when trying to summarize what racial traits the cambion would get.:)
Kazeofwinds 04-13-07, 12:57 AM	I looked at cambions again and noticed some spiffy SLAs I missed. They're still horrible for ECL 10 though. They might Be balanced at ECL 6, if you drop the comicly bad racial stats.
runestar 04-13-07, 01:10 AM	Are you nuts? Those racial traits alone more than outstrip anything a 6th lv fighter can get. What 6th lv PC gets full bab, good saves, rogue skills, super stats and SLAs at will?:confused:
Borris 04-13-07, 01:13 AM	I'm surprised no one has mentionned thw "Favored Classs: Assassin" part. A favored class is supposed to be a class that doesn't count to determine whether you get an XP penalty for multiclassing. But pretige classes never do. Might as well say that a cambion has no favored class, making it even worse. I sincerely hope the "Cambions as Characters" section gets corrected before Expedition to the Demonweb Pit goes to print.
Poison_Dusk 04-13-07, 01:21 AM	Baron and Marquis Cambions are actually particularly well-suited to be ambassadors, with +10 Cha. That is on top of the -10CHA. They break even, in other words. Still not my idea of fun.
Kazeofwinds 04-13-07, 01:22 AM	Are you nuts? Those racial traits alone more than outstrip anything a 6th lv fighter can get. What 6th lv PC gets full bab, good saves, rogue skills, super stats and SLAs at will?:confused: First off, they only Get 2+ int skills, and the rogue has a far better(and larger) skill list. A warlock can have any of those SLAs at will by level 6 except the Mirror image(The warlock can have actual flight, as opposed to just levitation). A one-level dip in mindbender gets any spellcaster capable of casting charm person the telepathy effect (including the previously mentioned warlock). I wouldnt call a +6 or two "super stats" (even for a marquis, those stats are applied to a cambion's existing ability changes, so they just cancel out the huge penalties to mentals and give a few more points of physical) Admittedly the Cambion is slightly better than the warlock, so maybe I was a bit off in my "glance at the monster" ECL estimation. But ECL 10, no way. ECL8, tops, for a Marquis. Also, Fighters suck as a balancing stick, look at how many arguements/assertions that they're horribly underpowered there are.
Mindolin 04-13-07, 01:24 AM	Wait, when did Cambions change? Wasn't cambion simply another name for half-fiend? Yeah, I just read that part about Cambions as characters, and the person who did that had absolutly no idea what they were doing. What's the deal with "you have a -10 penalty to charisma. And don't try and minimize this by putting an 8 in it, or we'll take the rest out of your intelligence." The person who did that needs to be taught the rules, and if they already know the rules, they need to be seriously examined on their fitness to write that sort of thing. Yeah, unless they are introducing an assassin core class, then they need to change the favored class. And the ability scores are incorrect. Let's make this a little easier: what is correct about this monster? Another possible problem is this: why are Malcanthet and Grazzt working together, when Grazzt recently assumed Malcanthet's form to seduce Kostchtchie? Seems she'ld still be a bit upset at that.
Poison_Dusk 04-13-07, 01:32 AM	Is there anything really correct?
Merryadocc 04-13-07, 01:36 AM	Plan Invade Demonweb: fail. Why? the 'Cambion Fallacy'; an assumption that WOTC material by nature is balanced and sane. :rofl: I love it :D Your post rocked!
Critalondel 04-13-07, 01:38 AM	Wait, when did Cambions change? Wasn't cambion simply another name for half-fiend? Exactly. Why not just trash all this "cambion" nonsense and make a normal half-fiend (in as much as any half-fiend is "normal," but you know what I mean).
Kolbane_Ferretmaster 04-13-07, 01:41 AM	Are you nuts? Those racial traits alone more than outstrip anything a 6th lv fighter can get. What 6th lv PC gets full bab, good saves, rogue skills, super stats and SLAs at will?:confused: Super Stats? With anything less then a 12 on your roll for Charisma, and your ultra-Cambion's just going to lie sprawled across the floor and gibber. Incidentally, I agree with Mindolin & Critalondel. :cookie: to the both of yas.
runestar 04-13-07, 01:47 AM	First off, they only Get 2+ int skills, and the rogue has a far better(and larger) skill list. You really are taking that entry on a word for word basis, aren't you?:P As outsiders, they get 8+int mod skill points, same as a rogue. In addition, they have martial weapon prof, good saves and full bab. Not shabby, IMO. They get a decent skill list. Far from decent compared to a rogue, but still respectable nonetheless.:)
Kazeofwinds 04-13-07, 01:53 AM	Well, I didnt bother rechecking racial hitdice traits because I thought the writer was at least slightly competent. Besides, with the leftovers of the CHA penalty going to int, they'll probably have at least a -2 CHA penalty anyways unless they put a high-ish stat into cha, probably resulting in another stat dropping. It'll probably end up with 6-ish skills/level on average. It isnt like their skill list is that gamebreaking anyways, and they're still junk at ECL10. I think whoever wrote the cambion was seriously smoking something, this looks like something that would get posted on these boards as a homebrew by someone who cant spell, and subseqently get torn to shreds.
obrysii 04-13-07, 08:33 AM	Plan Invade Heaven: fail. Why? 1 word... army of Solars. Not just an army of solars: an army of Gold Dragons, for one. An army of Silver dragons for another. Lawful Good dragons have a tendency to get past their personal differences if the realm of their deities are being invaded. And as far as I know, no army can survive a combination of Solar, Gold Dragon, and at least Silver Dragon armies. Curiously, evil dragons are generally too self-serving to much care.
Jaxgaret 04-13-07, 10:57 AM	That is on top of the -10CHA. They break even, in other words. Still not my idea of fun. First of all, there is no -10 Cha mod. That was a mistake on the part of whatever person threw a bunch of words and numbers into a blender, came up with something that looked like it might be a stat block, and called it the "Cambions as Characters" section. The real Cambion stat block is what runestar posted above: +8 Str, +6 Dex, +6 Con, +2 Int, -4 Wis, -6 Cha. That totals up to +22 to stats. The Marquis and Baron Cambions get a total of +30 to stats which, along with their additional Charm Person at will, is why their LA is one higher than a normal Cambion. To recap, the Baron and Marquis stats are not added on top of the faulty "Cambions as Characters" stats. They replace the normal Cambion's stats. IIRC there's even a sentence in there about how Cambions are almost as charismatic as Succubi; Succubi get +16 Cha, Baron and Marquis Cambions get +10. Make sense yet?
Argaud 04-13-07, 12:12 PM	IIRC there's even a sentence in there about how Cambions are almost as charismatic as Succubi; Succubi get +16 Cha, Baron and Marquis Cambions get +10. Make sense yet? But they aren't. Marquis and Baron cambions get the added stats to the basic cambion modifiers, so they receive +10 Str, +8 Dex, +8 Con, +6 Int , +6 Wis and +4 Cha. Those are some huge modifiers, but the charisma is still way behind the scuccubus' +16. They are also ECL 11 instead of 10. But the pages are full of dumb mistakes, indeed, like having a PrC as favored class, or the miscalculation of the racial abilities and skill points. They lack flight and the powerful slas of normal half-fiends, too. Which makes me wonder what the hell are they good for. And how is the child of a demon prince and a half-fiend is actually weaker than the half-fiend parent.
Moribund 04-13-07, 12:25 PM	what's the barbed javelin in the sample entry by the way? Basically a martial harpoon with an improved crit range?
Jaxgaret 04-13-07, 12:26 PM	The ability scores for these creatures are adjusted as follows from those of the base cambion: +2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con, +4 Int, +10 Wisdom, +10 Charisma. I took this to mean that they replaced the base Cambion's stats. But now that I look at it again, you may be right and they meant it to add on to the base Cambion's stats. So they're calculating a total +30 to stats and the addition of Charm Person at will as LA +1. That should be a +2 LA. I call shenanigans on the whole thing.
Poison_Dusk 04-13-07, 03:17 PM	The problem here is that, as always, text trumps table. I still think that the stats for the example were an alite array, and not al based off of 10's and 11's. Even going by the stat block the cambion is aporrly put together creature, and an even poorer player race.
Ra-Tiel 04-13-07, 04:19 PM	I came, saw, and laughed my ass off. Sorry, but this... "thing"... is just terrible. :tantrum: I'll take the normal MM1 half-fiend any time of the day, thank you very much. :banghead:
Morwen 04-13-07, 09:18 PM	I still think that the stats for the example were an alite array, and not al based off of 10's and 11's. The elite array is only used when the monster has PC-classes. When the monster has NPC-classes, they use the non-elite array. In both cases, they always write "this creature was written using the blahblah array". Monsters with no classes always use the standard array. I'll personally just disregard the entire "Cambions as Characters" section. I usually do that anyway, since all the information you need about a monster as a character race is found in the main statblock, but this time I have even more incentive to do so :)
Jaxgaret 04-14-07, 12:45 AM	I'll personally just disregard the entire "Cambions as Characters" section. My thoughts exactly.
WayneTheGame 04-14-07, 10:00 AM	It's an editing mistake that accidently got overlooked in the editing process. The correct statblock is the one discussed above taken from the monster statblock. It should be addressed soon.
Poison_Dusk 04-14-07, 07:30 PM	Well lets hope it was caught before print, or will at least be quickly errataed(sp?).
Count Arioch the 28th 04-14-07, 07:40 PM	Are you nuts? Those racial traits alone more than outstrip anything a 6th lv fighter can get. What 6th lv PC gets full bab, good saves, rogue skills, super stats and SLAs at will?:confused: You know what else more than outstrips anything a 6th klevel fighter can do? A 6th level cleric. A 6th level druid. A sixth level bard A sixth level rogue A sixth level wizard/ Seriously, all a fighter has is crappy feats, everyone outstrips that.
Whisper_Swiftblade 04-14-07, 08:25 PM	I find it funny that the "Cambions in Faerun" part says that they sometimes serve as ambassadors for demon lords. with all the insainly powerful good guys running around that realm, the demons might just need them.
Kresalak 04-14-07, 08:29 PM	But how can you be an ambassador with -10 Charisma?
Jaxgaret 04-14-07, 09:10 PM	But how can you be an ambassador with -10 Charisma? That's been addressed numerous times in this very thread.
runestar 04-14-07, 10:10 PM	They are what puts the "arse" in ambassador...;)
Eatable_Dice 04-14-07, 11:06 PM	I do hope this thing goes to print!In a few years, it´ll be a classic!"The book that WOTC screwed up BAD"!
The_Shaman 04-15-07, 07:32 AM	How is it that the stats in the creature entry have nothing in common with the "Cambions as characters" block anyway? If we just take those in the example and subtract 10 for evens, 11 for odds (as normally) we get something completely different - and arguably more playable.
Jaxgaret 04-15-07, 11:01 AM	How is it that the stats in the creature entry have nothing in common with the "Cambions as characters" block anyway? If we just take those in the example and subtract 10 for evens, 11 for odds (as normally) we get something completely different - and arguably more playable. Somebody screwed up big time, that's how.
Khatoblepas 04-15-07, 11:51 AM	How come it states that it can assume the form of a medium humanoid, but then goes on to list Outsiders (Tiefling, Aasimar, Marrash)? It does have flight - better flight than half-fiends. It lists the Marrash, which has a 70ft fly speed and is an outsider. It can stay in that form all day long, and not lose anything mobility wise apart from Silent Metal. Especially since the Alternate Form ability specifically states that it functions like polymorph Also, it doesn't specifically state what kind of form you can turn into, you can pick ANY ONE that matches up to the example. Choose another humanoid shaped medium outsider with less than 7HD, if that's the example you go by. =) This thing is so wacked out.
sigma999 04-15-07, 09:20 PM	:rofl: I love it :D Your post rocked! ^_^ I do my best... Not just an army of solars: an army of Gold Dragons, for one. An army of Silver dragons for another. Lawful Good dragons have a tendency to get past their personal differences if the realm of their deities are being invaded. And as far as I know, no army can survive a combination of Solar, Gold Dragon, and at least Silver Dragon armies. Curiously, evil dragons are generally too self-serving to much care. True! I forgot the dragons, figured they'd all be too greedy by nature (being dragon and all..) but I guess there are some things about metallics I just don't know. A friend mentioned that since the Abyss is infinite, there's always more evil to fight; unfortunately for the demons, this also means that most of them will always have never received the memo that you can't win against the 'heavens'! Believe me.. I had a L15 'dark paladin'... one of those LE variants... he tried to take on angels, and lost. Big time. My opinion on Cambions and Outsider-PC in general is that the ones with HD built in tend to be overpowered due to the nature of Outsider HD; it's good all around. Too good. I recommend removing all Outsider HD and replacing any instances with good matching PC classes. It'll put more emphasis on the synergy between the exotic abilities of those spirits and remove the issue of "it gets 8 SP and good BAB along with all good saves..." and so on. All a DM will have to do with a LA-only Outsider with PC levels is pick the feats and spells and the 'monster' is good to go as a PC, or XP farm. Ahem I mean... NPC. Cambion especially would profit/become better balanced, disregarding that whole CHA-10 hoopla. Just ignore that, folks, play the "marqui" and get over it! I'm glad this thread caught attention, this is a serious issue with WOTC and D&D lately. Some sloppy crap is being made and it needs to stop.
Poison_Dusk 04-16-07, 02:19 PM	My opinion on Cambions and Outsider-PC in general is that the ones with HD built in tend to be overpowered due to the nature of Outsider HD; it's good all around. Too good. I recommend removing all Outsider HD and replacing any instances with good matching PC classes. It'll put more emphasis on the synergy between the exotic abilities of those spirits and remove the issue of "it gets 8 SP and good BAB along with all good saves..." and so on. All a DM will have to do with a LA-only Outsider with PC levels is pick the feats and spells and the 'monster' is good to go as a PC, or XP farm. Ahem I mean... NPC. Cambion especially would profit/become better balanced, disregarding that whole CHA-10 hoopla. Just ignore that, folks, play the "marqui" and get over it! So you want to take an already crappy race(even going by the statblock and not the text), and make it even crappier? I don't think the HD is the problem, but the abysmal stats. WHy would anyone pay the LA for those stats? Do you want a crappy a$$ character?
sigma999 04-16-07, 07:23 PM	So you want to take an already crappy race(even going by the statblock and not the text), and make it even crappier? I don't think the HD is the problem, but the abysmal stats. WHy would anyone pay the LA for those stats? Do you want a crappy a$$ character? Baron/marqui is better, hence the recommendation. In a general sense, change of Outsider HD to classes would be for the better as most OTHER outsiders aren't as poorly designed.
Poison_Dusk 04-17-07, 01:55 AM	So then what you are suggesting is to make it a 1 HD creature so that it would be an ECL of 5(6) for a first level character? I think even then, while that is an improvement, it would be a poor race.
sigma999 04-17-07, 02:16 AM	Well, for Cambion, I recommend making the example NPC with statblock into the race (and ignore the "Cambion as PC" junk below it) and remove those Outsider HD. If one wants an equivalent to that example Cambion they would add 5-6 levels of Fighter or Rogue or something appropriate, add LA, and done. No racial HD at all. IMHO the LA is a bit too high for what it is, and some of its abilities could be optional feats or something, it's just too much and yes I can't stand it either but I won't fret about the sheer suckitude. Ironically I did play as a Cambion briefly but that was AD&D and in Planescape, so it was not only different from this but playing as a baron Cambion was 'balanced' to the rest of the party... The whole "abysmal charisma" thing didn't affect me, but I did use CHA as the dump stat so it ended up being crude and ugly anyways.
asurademon 04-17-07, 02:36 PM	I don't even know what the point of this creature is, they all ready have a much better cambion (also known as half-fiend) in the Monstrous Manual. This one is just clearly badly put together. I would just use the Monstrous Manual one, or if you really want to be true to real world cambion lore, a variant half-fiend of succubus heritage (I think that half-succubi were one of the many half-fiend variants Wizards has put up somewhere on this site).
CrawlingChaos 04-17-07, 06:02 PM	Quickily, e-mail the developers!!! I always wondered why people spot blatant flaw slike that and dont e-mail the book writters to warn them.... Perhaps, it would still be corrected by the time it goes to print.
sigma999 04-17-07, 06:47 PM	True... I'll dig up one of my favorite... http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/eo/20070209a Creating a Diabolical Half-Fiend Player Characters and the Half-Fiend Template The approach used to customize the half-fiend template is described in detail in the web enhancement (Half)-Fiendish Variety, Part 1, so this is just a summary of the main areas you can customize. Go read the other article for a full treatment. First, choose a devil on which to base your customized creature (referred to as "base devil") and a base monster to modify ("base creature"). Then, prepare the customized version of the template using the full guide in (Half)-Fiendish Variety, Part 1 or the shorter version here. Then apply the customized template. Easy as pie. Size and Type: If the base devil is Huge or larger, increase the base creature's size one category so long as it is still no larger than the base devil. The relevant changes to the base creature's statistics can be found on page 291 of the Monster Manual. If the base creature increases in size, increase the CR of the final creature by 1. Speed: If the base devil has wings, give the new creature wings and a fly speed. If the base devil swims or burrows, consider giving the new creature those modes. Always use the better speed of the base devil or base creature. Armor Class: Divide the base devil's natural armor bonus by 4 (round down) and add that to the base creature as an improvement to its own natural armor. You should always add a minimum of a +1 natural armor improvement. Attack and Damage: Give the new creature whatever natural attacks the base devil or the base creature has. Use the base creature's damage for the attacks, or the value in the table on page 148 of the Monster Manual, whichever is greater. For damage other than claws and a bite, such as a slam, use the damage from the table on page 296 of the Monster Manual. Special Attacks: Switch out spell-like abilities in the list on page 148 of the Monster Manual with those the base devil has, or don't. It's your choice. You can also use the handy dandy Swappable Spell-Like Abilities table on page 108 of Fiendish Codex II: Tyrants of the Nine Hells. Keep the frequency the same as for the standard half-fiend template (in other words, if you replace a 3/day spell-like ability, the replacement works 3/day too). Special Qualities: Change the new creature's damage reduction from magic to whatever the base devil has. Choose one if it has two possibilities. Abilities: The total modifier for the template is +16 ability points. Eyeball the base devil's stats and split up this +16 total among the new creature's ability scores (except Wisdom) to match the pattern of the base devil's scores. Skills: A half-fiend gains skill points as an outsider and has skill points equal to (8 + Int modifier) x (HD + 3). Treat skills from the base devil's skill list and the base creature's skill list as class skills. Skills in the list in which the base creature or the base devil has no actual ranks should not be treated as class skills. Challenge Rating: If you think the new creature is more difficult to defeat than it would be with the standard half-fiend template, apply the Challenge Rating increases above and then add +1. Remember to add 1 if the creature changed size; a larger size always makes something harder to defeat. Appearance: Use your imagination to combine the two creatures' appearance into something cool for the new creature. Coolness is more important than strict accuracy. In the sample creatures below, and there are a plethora of them, the customization steps are listed before the stat blocks. That way you can apply the customization to any qualified base creature easily. But... but.... Appearance: Use your imagination to combine the two creatures' appearance into something cool for the new creature. Coolness is more important than strict accuracy. @_@ I can't believe he wrote that... partially true, but HORRIBLE advice for a supposedly structered, number based game! Truth is in the fact that without creativity you are just as bad as a fat, old strategy gamer playing with civil war figurines, trying to recreate some historic battle. Where's the fun in that? Sure it's a hobby but you can't CREATE with it beyond what history presents. D&D REQUIRES creativity, and unfortunately not every gamer has the degree of imagination (read: a modicum, the minimal amount..) required to make the game fun for those around. They might instead compensate for a tendency to argue, to rules lawyer, to nitpick, to overmanage, to interrupt with stupid jokes.. that's not good. However, all 'coolness' leads to rampant juvenile ignorance of basic game rules because reading and remembering how to play is "boring" and therefore less important to pure roleplay. I have an on-and-off gamer friend with ADHD that, although is an excellent roleplayer, practically SUCKS at 'rollplaying' to the degree that he usually chooses not to, forcing everyone left participating in his campaigns (if he DMs) to either walk out on him or 'go with the flow' and effectively rely on his every instant-judgement-and-dictation for game flow; This inevitably leads to long, rambling, uneventful but ultimately 'cool' game nights which I am, sometimes, left wondering if the evening was better spent with a beer and the computer... My advice is equal parts 'coolness' and 'accuracy'; think of concepts first, then use the system at hand to bring your goal to fruition. If your objective character/race/item/world/campaign/Cambion does not at first fit within the rules, either alter the rules TO A MINIMUM DEGREE, WITH AGREEMENT FROM YOUR FELLOW GAMERS or ask for help/read more for a different way to achieve that goal. Don't scrap what came before and start anew, much like what Anime d20 (R.I.P., Guardians of Order.. T_T) and, more recently, whoever wrote this Cambion, did and continue to do. Personally, I'm still trying to figure out how exactly I'll use the existing rules to make my half-devil fey sorcerer, or perhaps half-fey tieflingm I can't figure out which is better... think I'll also use some sorc alternative from these boards or combination thereof, and maybe or maybe not either Battle Sorcerer (From UA) or Stalwart Sorcerer (from PHB2) until it can qualify for some cool PrCs like Archmage and stuff. I like the half-devil template article because it has more options for diversity than the default half-fiend with minimal chance for abuse... One thing for sure, I'm not playing Cambion ever again. Uggg.. Charisma damage...
Vrellum 04-18-07, 11:28 AM	Wow he really is bad. Ambassadors in Faerun? With no ranks in diplomacy and a-10 cha adjustment? That's pretty sad. Also it says that they are very skilled at luring mortals to the abyss so other demons can kill them and turn them into larva or manes. I doubt they would be successful. They don't have any ranks in bluff, coupled with their low cha and almost nobody will believe them. Also, one of their main strategies is to shapechange into and elf, ect to get close and then attack an unsuspecting foe. Unfortunately their disguise modifier is only +5 (-3 for cha and -2 for different race +10 for polymorph), so they're not very likely to beat the spot check of anyone except an unskilled and/or low level character. It looks like they copied the first edition stats and didn't take into account the importance of skill checks in 3.5. I think they definately dropped the ball on this one.
Morwen 04-26-07, 08:03 PM	Funnily enough, now that I have the book in my hands, one of the NPC Cambions (cambion rogue 5) has a 20 Charisma.. With no charisma-boosting items. As a rogue 5, he'd have the elite array, but even with a +5 Cha from the array, and +1 Cha from the 8th HD ability score increase, that puts him at a starting Cha of 14. Perhaps 14 is the Charisma score all Cambions should have started at? The other ability scores almost match up if the elite array is applied. On the other hand, it's possible that the NPC in question is supposed to be a unique Cambion (although then the adventure should mention that).
Luis_Dragunov 04-26-07, 09:29 PM	Wait... what? No... -10 Charisma? What the heck? Can anyone say "Forced low LA"? Most people use charisma as dump stat already! Wait, does this mean most cambion are stillborn? I mean, to have 0 Charisma is to be in a coma and the only way for that to happen is to have it drained. That means that even if you place that silly 8 or 6 to cha and you get -10, you still get a charisma score of 1. ........ ONE. Am I the only want to think that demons, creatures who find themselves superior to almost everything, will spawn a half-blood that will be constantly outshined by, say, a camel, a manta ray, and completely trumped by a homunculus! Cambion: "Fear me, mortals, for I am--" Villagers: "OMIGOSH look at that rat! Eeeek!"
sigma999 04-27-07, 05:52 PM	The marquis/baron Cambion is a 'greater' version for LA+1 or so. At the expense of slightly altered ability scores they get a much better CHA score. You can find it with the PDF linked in the first post, natch.
the Lorax 04-27-07, 08:54 PM	Leaving out any Baron/Marquis weirdness, and adding things from the stat block that don't seem to have made it into the character section, I really think it should have looked something more like this: Cambions as Characters Cambions are predisposed to be rogues and assassins, but a few becomespellcasters. A cambion cleric serves a demon lord rather than a deity and has access to two of the following domains: Chaos, Destruction, Evil, Knowledge, or Trickery (favored weapon:any sword). Most cambion spellcasters, however, are wizards who favor spells that enhance stealth or provide touch attacks. Cambion characters possess the following racial traits: *+6 Str, +4 Dex, +4 Con, -4 Wis.(minimum.3), -10 Cha. (minimum 2) *Medium size *Base land speed is 40 feet *Darkvision out to 60 feet *Immunity to electricity and poison. *Resistance to acid 10, cold 10, and fire 10 *Telepathy *Proficient with all simple and martial weapons *Aligned Strike: A cambion’s natural weapons, as well as any weapons it wields, are treated as chaotic-aligned and evil alignedfor the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. *Alternate Form: A cambion can assume the form of a specific Medium humanoid (typically a human, drow, elf, aasimar, tiefling, githyanki, githzerai, marrash, or gnoll, but sometimes a goblinoid) as a standard action once per day. This ability functions as a polymorph spell cast on itself as a caster equal to the cambions character level, except a cambion does not regain hit points for changing form and can assume only the form of that specific creature. A cambion can remain in its humanoid form until it chooses to return to its natural form. *Silent Metal: A cambion has no armor check penalty on Hide and Move Silently checks. *Spell-Like Abilities: (any two of the following): At will detect magic, At will fear, At will mirror image,7/day invisibility, 7/day levitate Caster level equal to character level; save DC 10 + Cambion’s Cha or Int modifier + spell level. *Spell Resistance: SR equal to 10 + Cambion's Character level *Damage Reduction: DR 5/good or magic *A cambion begins with six levels of outsider, which provide 6d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +6, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +5, Ref +5, and Will +5 *Racial Skills: A cambion’s outsider levels give it skill points equal to 6 × (8+Int modifier). Its class skills are: Climb, Gather Information, Hide, Knowledge (local), Listen, Move Silently, Sense Motive, Spot, and Tumble *Racial Feats: A cambion’s outsider levels give it three feats *+2 natural armor bonus *Automatic Languages: Abyssal, Common *Bonus. languages: Celestial, Draconic, Elven, Goblin, Infernal *Favored Class: Rogue *Level Adjustment: +4 And unless I really messed this up, isn't terrible for a +4, and might actually be a bit strong for a +3. Now the Baron/Marquis - well, assuming that there are no typos/editing errors in the stat modifications, it probably is a +5 even if the standard cambion is +3.