Can a doppleganger be an outsider? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Can a doppleganger be an outsider? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Niren
10-20-07, 10:06 PM Can an 8th lvl doppleganger become an Hound of Archon? It does not list it humaniod but as an outsider. Is there a RAW on this?
CryoSilver
10-20-07, 10:12 PM If it's an outsider, then a doppelganger can't copy it.
Niren
10-20-07, 10:17 PM If it's an outsider, then a doppelganger can't copy it. So by your def a Tiefling or an Aasimar are not humanoid?
CryoSilver
10-20-07, 10:37 PM Nope.
Naderion
10-21-07, 08:06 AM Can a doppelganger LOOK like an outsider? The general rule says not, but this is one instance were it's obvious that the general rule doesn't work and a judgement call is required. And it says of course he can.
runestar
10-21-07, 08:27 AM Technically no, since humanoid has a very specific connotation in dnd.

Though I find it funny that it cannot choose to look like humanoid-looking outsiders like say, an astral deva, yet can assume the guise of more monstrous-looking humanoids, like bugbears, gnolls or lizardfolk.:P
Banatine
10-21-07, 10:26 AM I would rule he can look like anything that shares the same basic humanoid shape. It seems a little silly to me to say that dopplegangers can copy humans but not elan. Of course, there aren't many humanoid outsiders that do not have at least one characteristic that would make it impossible for a doppleganger to copy them.

As long as they don't gain any of the special qualities of the creature they look like, what differance does it make what they turn in to?
InkBlot
10-21-07, 01:01 PM Changelings, the descendants of dopplegangers and humans, can take the form of any humanoid-shaped creature. Mechanically, this is because the changeling ability is based on disguise self, which doesn't bother with creature types (only vague definitions of body shape). Thematically, it doesn't make any sense. A changeling should be worse at disguising itself than a doppleganger.

A doppleganger should be able to look like a human-shaped outsider, but just not gain the outsider's special abilities.
lord_xarallon
10-21-07, 05:38 PM Though I find it funny that it cannot choose to look like humanoid-looking outsiders like say, an astral deva, yet can assume the guise of more monstrous-looking humanoids, like bugbears, gnolls or lizardfolk.:P

Me too...

But that is what house rules are for.
Niren
10-21-07, 10:39 PM Then if an nonhumaniod like Leonal who has ex special qualities as darkvision, spell resistance, and ex abilities as pounce, and improved grab with natural ac bonus. he cannot have, but he could turn into a drow or an catfolk who could have pounce, Natural AC, or a drow with spell redistance and dark vision?
Tordak
10-22-07, 09:05 AM Id like to answer your question but it's hard to understand the way it's written (sorry). But if I understand correctly what you want, you need to know that the doppelganger ability works much like the spell disguise self except it's not an illusion, it's an actual physical change (this only mean you can't get ride of it the way you normally do with illusions). The doppleganger gains none of the extrordinary abilities of any creature he mimics, nor does he gain physical abilities scores or natural ac or the like. Type does not change. It does NOT work like alter self or polymorph. The doppleganger merely looks like another creature but that's all there is to it, LOOKS.

As for the initial question, I'd say he could look like an outsider if the DM chooses to because I agree that humanoid being a type of creature rather than a way to describe the shape of a creature is sort of confusing when it comes to ability like change shape. I think there's no real harm, after all they are supposed to be master of disguise.
Niren
10-22-07, 12:35 PM But if I understand correctly what you want, you need to know that the doppelganger ability works much like the spell disguise self except it's not an illusion, it's an actual physical change (this only mean you can't get ride of it the way you normally do with illusions). The doppleganger gains none of the extrordinary abilities of any creature he mimics, nor does he gain physical abilities scores or natural ac or the like. Type does not change. It does NOT work like alter self or polymorph. The doppleganger merely looks like another creature but that's all there is to it, LOOKS.
The races of Destiny pg 95 call them Shapechangers, subclass shapechanger and to shapechange you gain all su and ex abilities even polymorph mentions that a doppleganger is a shapechanger. So to assume a form they shapechange not polymorph into a new "creature" so I am looking at how to deal with this and limit the ability acording to RAW if it is possible or by the general response court. But the books call them shapechangers, that is a lot more powerful than poly, or alter self.
Tordak
10-22-07, 03:48 PM The races of Destiny pg 95 call them Shapechangers, subclass shapechanger and to shapechange you gain all su and ex abilities even polymorph mentions that a doppleganger is a shapechanger. So to assume a form they shapechange not polymorph into a new "creature" so I am looking at how to deal with this and limit the ability acording to RAW if it is possible or by the general response court. But the books call them shapechangers, that is a lot more powerful than poly, or alter self.

You might be confusing this with the 9th level spell shapechange, which as nothing to do with the shapechanger subtype. The spell is powerful and does grant the abilities you mention, but this is entirely different. All shapechangers don't get to change in anything they want, it's just a special type of creature (actually it is a subtype) that has the ability to assume other form, some with special qualities granted, some not. The doppleganger ability is called Change shape, not Shapechange; here is the description of change shape (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#changeShape).

I mad a little mistake in the previous post, doppleganger gain extraordinary special attacks derived from the form , natural weapons and movement mode(s) (still not extraodinary qualities though).
Niren
10-22-07, 08:38 PM The doppleganger ability is called Change shape, not Shapechange; here is the description of change shape (http://www.d20 .org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#changeShape)
Thanks that explains alot!!! and thanks also for the url being a dm for a doppleganger is going to be ruff but not as ruff as I thought. Thanks Tordak
ToastedAmphibian
10-23-07, 03:59 PM Hey, is a shapechanger a humanoid? If so, just tell your doppleganger to SHAPE CHANGE INTO A SHAPE CHANGER. Then he can disguise himself as whatever he wants. (thats basically humanoid in shape)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Niren 10-20-07, 10:06 PM	Can an 8th lvl doppleganger become an Hound of Archon? It does not list it humaniod but as an outsider. Is there a RAW on this?
CryoSilver 10-20-07, 10:12 PM	If it's an outsider, then a doppelganger can't copy it.
Niren 10-20-07, 10:17 PM	If it's an outsider, then a doppelganger can't copy it. So by your def a Tiefling or an Aasimar are not humanoid?
CryoSilver 10-20-07, 10:37 PM	Nope.
Naderion 10-21-07, 08:06 AM	Can a doppelganger LOOK like an outsider? The general rule says not, but this is one instance were it's obvious that the general rule doesn't work and a judgement call is required. And it says of course he can.
runestar 10-21-07, 08:27 AM	Technically no, since humanoid has a very specific connotation in dnd. Though I find it funny that it cannot choose to look like humanoid-looking outsiders like say, an astral deva, yet can assume the guise of more monstrous-looking humanoids, like bugbears, gnolls or lizardfolk.:P
Banatine 10-21-07, 10:26 AM	I would rule he can look like anything that shares the same basic humanoid shape. It seems a little silly to me to say that dopplegangers can copy humans but not elan. Of course, there aren't many humanoid outsiders that do not have at least one characteristic that would make it impossible for a doppleganger to copy them. As long as they don't gain any of the special qualities of the creature they look like, what differance does it make what they turn in to?
InkBlot 10-21-07, 01:01 PM	Changelings, the descendants of dopplegangers and humans, can take the form of any humanoid-shaped creature. Mechanically, this is because the changeling ability is based on disguise self, which doesn't bother with creature types (only vague definitions of body shape). Thematically, it doesn't make any sense. A changeling should be worse at disguising itself than a doppleganger. A doppleganger should be able to look like a human-shaped outsider, but just not gain the outsider's special abilities.
lord_xarallon 10-21-07, 05:38 PM	Though I find it funny that it cannot choose to look like humanoid-looking outsiders like say, an astral deva, yet can assume the guise of more monstrous-looking humanoids, like bugbears, gnolls or lizardfolk.:P Me too... But that is what house rules are for.
Niren 10-21-07, 10:39 PM	Then if an nonhumaniod like Leonal who has ex special qualities as darkvision, spell resistance, and ex abilities as pounce, and improved grab with natural ac bonus. he cannot have, but he could turn into a drow or an catfolk who could have pounce, Natural AC, or a drow with spell redistance and dark vision?
Tordak 10-22-07, 09:05 AM	Id like to answer your question but it's hard to understand the way it's written (sorry). But if I understand correctly what you want, you need to know that the doppelganger ability works much like the spell disguise self except it's not an illusion, it's an actual physical change (this only mean you can't get ride of it the way you normally do with illusions). The doppleganger gains none of the extrordinary abilities of any creature he mimics, nor does he gain physical abilities scores or natural ac or the like. Type does not change. It does NOT work like alter self or polymorph. The doppleganger merely looks like another creature but that's all there is to it, LOOKS. As for the initial question, I'd say he could look like an outsider if the DM chooses to because I agree that humanoid being a type of creature rather than a way to describe the shape of a creature is sort of confusing when it comes to ability like change shape. I think there's no real harm, after all they are supposed to be master of disguise.
Niren 10-22-07, 12:35 PM	But if I understand correctly what you want, you need to know that the doppelganger ability works much like the spell disguise self except it's not an illusion, it's an actual physical change (this only mean you can't get ride of it the way you normally do with illusions). The doppleganger gains none of the extrordinary abilities of any creature he mimics, nor does he gain physical abilities scores or natural ac or the like. Type does not change. It does NOT work like alter self or polymorph. The doppleganger merely looks like another creature but that's all there is to it, LOOKS. The races of Destiny pg 95 call them Shapechangers, subclass shapechanger and to shapechange you gain all su and ex abilities even polymorph mentions that a doppleganger is a shapechanger. So to assume a form they shapechange not polymorph into a new "creature" so I am looking at how to deal with this and limit the ability acording to RAW if it is possible or by the general response court. But the books call them shapechangers, that is a lot more powerful than poly, or alter self.
Tordak 10-22-07, 03:48 PM	The races of Destiny pg 95 call them Shapechangers, subclass shapechanger and to shapechange you gain all su and ex abilities even polymorph mentions that a doppleganger is a shapechanger. So to assume a form they shapechange not polymorph into a new "creature" so I am looking at how to deal with this and limit the ability acording to RAW if it is possible or by the general response court. But the books call them shapechangers, that is a lot more powerful than poly, or alter self. You might be confusing this with the 9th level spell shapechange, which as nothing to do with the shapechanger subtype. The spell is powerful and does grant the abilities you mention, but this is entirely different. All shapechangers don't get to change in anything they want, it's just a special type of creature (actually it is a subtype) that has the ability to assume other form, some with special qualities granted, some not. The doppleganger ability is called Change shape, not Shapechange; here is the description of change shape (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#changeShape). I mad a little mistake in the previous post, doppleganger gain extraordinary special attacks derived from the form , natural weapons and movement mode(s) (still not extraodinary qualities though).
Niren 10-22-07, 08:38 PM	The doppleganger ability is called Change shape, not Shapechange; here is the description of change shape (http://www.d20 .org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#changeShape) Thanks that explains alot!!! and thanks also for the url being a dm for a doppleganger is going to be ruff but not as ruff as I thought. Thanks Tordak
ToastedAmphibian 10-23-07, 03:59 PM	Hey, is a shapechanger a humanoid? If so, just tell your doppleganger to SHAPE CHANGE INTO A SHAPE CHANGER. Then he can disguise himself as whatever he wants. (thats basically humanoid in shape)