Can Dragons level? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Can Dragons level? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Sola2007
05-07-07, 03:04 AM And if so how would I do that? As monster levels or class? I as because I saw that they have a LA. Would thier age affect thier level?
calronmoonflower
05-07-07, 03:09 AM They gain ht die as they age.

They can also take class levels.

The Draconomicon even has prestige classes just for dragons and a monstrous class progression for players.
Derren S.
05-07-07, 03:14 AM Dragons can take class levels normally. They get simply added to their racial HD (but do not count for age/size increases).

Imo it is completly unlogical for dragon not to pick up a level or twenty during its extremly long lifetime.
The same applies to old outsiders.
Nadaka
05-07-07, 03:16 AM IMC I have a dragon with class levels IMC. He carries a 30ft greatsword strapped to his back, and he uses it rather effectively.
Sola2007
05-07-07, 03:26 AM lol thanks guys, I have two more questions:

1. What do you think would be a good class? I know caster would be very good, but my players are a rogue and a mage and I dont want thier dragon to upstage them if you know what I mean.

2. What is this test that you can take to see what you would be in D&D? I see people have thier results posted in thier sig and it looks fun,
Armoracia Rusticana
05-07-07, 03:37 AM 1. Monk. A single level adds some nice AC there!
2. Fighter. Feats are always good, you know.
3. Paladin in case of good dragon. 3 levels would give divine grace...
calronmoonflower
05-07-07, 03:50 AM 1. Monk. A single level adds some nice AC there!

It would also give a dragon an unarmed strike it could combine with a full attack.

Adding three levels of swashbuckler to adds massive damage (for most dragons) to your attacks.

Ninja could be fun as well.

Basically any class that gives a bonus on ability scores will work well.
runestar
05-07-07, 04:00 AM From a cr POV, class lvs are not really that suitable, save for a few choice 1-dips. This is because few class benefits can stack up with the raw power extra dragon grants(which directly improves many of their existing abilities). In addition, if the dragon has too many racial HD, class lvs may start incurring epic bab rules, further eroding the benefit of full-bab classes.

This might arguably end up making the dragon too weak for its cr.

As PCs, class lvs benefit them more, since you accrue them at the same rate as HD.

Monk is not bad, though you can replicate its benefit with a monk's belt.
1 lv of barb for rage might not be a bad idea for lower lv dragons which do not yet have spellcasting.
1 lv of cleric is not a bad idea. Domain powers can be quite useful if selected correctly(can replicate up to 2 feats), and you get turn undead, if you ever want to power clerical smiting(cha mod to damage for all attacks?):D

No divine metamagic for it though.:(
Naderion
05-07-07, 05:43 AM Sorcerer would also be a good idea, because they already have levels in it from their spellcasting ability.
Luis_Dragunov
05-07-07, 06:13 AM As it has been said, as dragons age, they gain racial hit dice. Most dragons (read: straight out of the MM) don't bother with anything else. Why should they? They're pretty tough already, but there's no reason why they can't have levels in any class they wish - and with their scores, anything suits them well - except rogue because I don't see a dragon sneaking around.
Derren S.
05-07-07, 06:39 AM because I don't see a dragon sneaking around.

Thats the whole point of sneaking dragons isn't it?
calronmoonflower
05-07-07, 06:46 AM except rogue because I don't see a dragon sneaking around.

They'd do well with polymorph and sneaking.

many dragons like taking humanoid form for one reason or another.
Derren S.
05-07-07, 07:00 AM Also only because a dragon is big it doesn't mean that they don't hide/sneak.

Imagine a shadow dragon in his underground labyrinth or a black dragon in a swamp.
Naderion
05-07-07, 07:15 AM *hums the Jaws tune* :D
runestar
05-07-07, 07:17 AM Dragons can already take ranks in sneak without rogue lvs, IIRC.
But sneak attack can be very scary if they can ever pull it off. Take 1 lv of rogue and give it the craven feat. That translates to a potential extra 1d6+HD damage for each natural attack...:eek:
obrysii
05-07-07, 08:21 AM Dragons, or for that matter, any creature with Int 3 or higher can take class levels.

Yes. The Tarrrasque can indeed level up in classes.
Luis_Dragunov
05-07-07, 08:24 AM Thats the whole point of sneaking dragons isn't it?

You know, I was going to make that joke but then it felt like sabotage xD

I mostly meant that in a combat situation, I doubt that the dragon will catch anyone by surprise :)
Derren S.
05-07-07, 03:18 PM You know, I was going to make that joke but then it felt like sabotage xD

I mostly meant that in a combat situation, I doubt that the dragon will catch anyone by surprise :)

Why not? Because they are big? Thats what the hide penalty for large size is for. With enough ranks a dragon would not have a problem with hiding itself as long as there is enough concealment/cover to hide behind.
StruckingFuggle
05-07-07, 06:31 PM lol thanks guys, I have two more questions:

1. What do you think would be a good class? I know caster would be very good, but my players are a rogue and a mage and I dont want thier dragon to upstage them if you know what I mean.

If you're lawful, a level, even just one, of Monk, on a Dragon, is obscene. You get your huge wisdom modifier to your AC - including touch AC! - and Monk Unarmed Strike. Which allows you to make iterative attacks with MUS Damage + your huge str mod, based on your BAB (which, hey, is Full, from Dragon Hit Dice), and then, after those four attacks, all of your natural attacks, too.

Good deal. :O

Casting classes, meanwhile, are bad. Between Racial HD and Level Adjustment, if a PC, your caster level will be crap for your ECL. :/
Lord_Of_The_Abyss
05-07-07, 06:58 PM In Draconomicon there is a small section about dragons as PC's, normally they take epic quests though (the more powerful dragons at least), and yes it has the HD and LA they gain as they get older and larger, however, there's another table about Lesser Dragons LA, no where near as complicated because they have a fixed size, the largest LA is a +5 for Abyssal Drake......and it's huge and playable according to the table:eek: that's the only huge one though, there's even certain magical items for them, such as Dragon Armor Of Invincibility which is a set of +5 half-plate armor designed to fit and resize to any Medium or Larger dragon..........and thus, my ranting is done (apologies:D )

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sola2007 05-07-07, 03:04 AM	And if so how would I do that? As monster levels or class? I as because I saw that they have a LA. Would thier age affect thier level?
calronmoonflower 05-07-07, 03:09 AM	They gain ht die as they age. They can also take class levels. The Draconomicon even has prestige classes just for dragons and a monstrous class progression for players.
Derren S. 05-07-07, 03:14 AM	Dragons can take class levels normally. They get simply added to their racial HD (but do not count for age/size increases). Imo it is completly unlogical for dragon not to pick up a level or twenty during its extremly long lifetime. The same applies to old outsiders.
Nadaka 05-07-07, 03:16 AM	IMC I have a dragon with class levels IMC. He carries a 30ft greatsword strapped to his back, and he uses it rather effectively.
Sola2007 05-07-07, 03:26 AM	lol thanks guys, I have two more questions: 1. What do you think would be a good class? I know caster would be very good, but my players are a rogue and a mage and I dont want thier dragon to upstage them if you know what I mean. 2. What is this test that you can take to see what you would be in D&D? I see people have thier results posted in thier sig and it looks fun,
Armoracia Rusticana 05-07-07, 03:37 AM	1. Monk. A single level adds some nice AC there! 2. Fighter. Feats are always good, you know. 3. Paladin in case of good dragon. 3 levels would give divine grace...
calronmoonflower 05-07-07, 03:50 AM	1. Monk. A single level adds some nice AC there! It would also give a dragon an unarmed strike it could combine with a full attack. Adding three levels of swashbuckler to adds massive damage (for most dragons) to your attacks. Ninja could be fun as well. Basically any class that gives a bonus on ability scores will work well.
runestar 05-07-07, 04:00 AM	From a cr POV, class lvs are not really that suitable, save for a few choice 1-dips. This is because few class benefits can stack up with the raw power extra dragon grants(which directly improves many of their existing abilities). In addition, if the dragon has too many racial HD, class lvs may start incurring epic bab rules, further eroding the benefit of full-bab classes. This might arguably end up making the dragon too weak for its cr. As PCs, class lvs benefit them more, since you accrue them at the same rate as HD. Monk is not bad, though you can replicate its benefit with a monk's belt. 1 lv of barb for rage might not be a bad idea for lower lv dragons which do not yet have spellcasting. 1 lv of cleric is not a bad idea. Domain powers can be quite useful if selected correctly(can replicate up to 2 feats), and you get turn undead, if you ever want to power clerical smiting(cha mod to damage for all attacks?):D No divine metamagic for it though.:(
Naderion 05-07-07, 05:43 AM	Sorcerer would also be a good idea, because they already have levels in it from their spellcasting ability.
Luis_Dragunov 05-07-07, 06:13 AM	As it has been said, as dragons age, they gain racial hit dice. Most dragons (read: straight out of the MM) don't bother with anything else. Why should they? They're pretty tough already, but there's no reason why they can't have levels in any class they wish - and with their scores, anything suits them well - except rogue because I don't see a dragon sneaking around.
Derren S. 05-07-07, 06:39 AM	because I don't see a dragon sneaking around. Thats the whole point of sneaking dragons isn't it?
calronmoonflower 05-07-07, 06:46 AM	except rogue because I don't see a dragon sneaking around. They'd do well with polymorph and sneaking. many dragons like taking humanoid form for one reason or another.
Derren S. 05-07-07, 07:00 AM	Also only because a dragon is big it doesn't mean that they don't hide/sneak. Imagine a shadow dragon in his underground labyrinth or a black dragon in a swamp.
Naderion 05-07-07, 07:15 AM	hums the Jaws tune :D
runestar 05-07-07, 07:17 AM	Dragons can already take ranks in sneak without rogue lvs, IIRC. But sneak attack can be very scary if they can ever pull it off. Take 1 lv of rogue and give it the craven feat. That translates to a potential extra 1d6+HD damage for each natural attack...:eek:
obrysii 05-07-07, 08:21 AM	Dragons, or for that matter, any creature with Int 3 or higher can take class levels. Yes. The Tarrrasque can indeed level up in classes.
Luis_Dragunov 05-07-07, 08:24 AM	Thats the whole point of sneaking dragons isn't it? You know, I was going to make that joke but then it felt like sabotage xD I mostly meant that in a combat situation, I doubt that the dragon will catch anyone by surprise :)
Derren S. 05-07-07, 03:18 PM	You know, I was going to make that joke but then it felt like sabotage xD I mostly meant that in a combat situation, I doubt that the dragon will catch anyone by surprise :) Why not? Because they are big? Thats what the hide penalty for large size is for. With enough ranks a dragon would not have a problem with hiding itself as long as there is enough concealment/cover to hide behind.
StruckingFuggle 05-07-07, 06:31 PM	lol thanks guys, I have two more questions: 1. What do you think would be a good class? I know caster would be very good, but my players are a rogue and a mage and I dont want thier dragon to upstage them if you know what I mean. If you're lawful, a level, even just one, of Monk, on a Dragon, is obscene. You get your huge wisdom modifier to your AC - including touch AC! - and Monk Unarmed Strike. Which allows you to make iterative attacks with MUS Damage + your huge str mod, based on your BAB (which, hey, is Full, from Dragon Hit Dice), and then, after those four attacks, all of your natural attacks, too. Good deal. :O Casting classes, meanwhile, are bad. Between Racial HD and Level Adjustment, if a PC, your caster level will be crap for your ECL. :/
Lord_Of_The_Abyss 05-07-07, 06:58 PM	In Draconomicon there is a small section about dragons as PC's, normally they take epic quests though (the more powerful dragons at least), and yes it has the HD and LA they gain as they get older and larger, however, there's another table about Lesser Dragons LA, no where near as complicated because they have a fixed size, the largest LA is a +5 for Abyssal Drake......and it's huge and playable according to the table:eek: that's the only huge one though, there's even certain magical items for them, such as Dragon Armor Of Invincibility which is a set of +5 half-plate armor designed to fit and resize to any Medium or Larger dragon..........and thus, my ranting is done (apologies:D )