Can Undead Rage? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Can Undead Rage? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
peuty
06-09-07, 09:37 AM I'm just kind of curious about this. I figure the answer to be no because they have no constitution score, but I wouldn't mind hearing any other points of view or even similar points of view on this subject.
Purkake
06-09-07, 10:08 AM Sure they can, but the are immune to mind affecting effects and thus moral bonuses. So they would probably only get the Str bonus. If they can run forever thanks to no Con score then I would say that they can also rage forever just take -2 AC and get +4 Str.
JackJester
06-09-07, 10:16 AM They get the short end of the rage length but on the other hand are never fatigued, so it balances out.
Maraxus
06-09-07, 11:10 AM Right, no Con in this case means 3 rounds of rage.

Apart from that I'd say, that mindless undead can't rage (which won't come up a lot anyway, since they can't have Barbarien Levels)

Purkake: Since when are Moral bonus allways "mind effecting" effects? No, they explicitly don't work on Int - creatures but work normally on Intelligent undeads.
Salla
06-09-07, 11:45 AM Purkake: Since when are Moral bonus allways "mind effecting" effects? No, they explicitly don't work on Int - creatures but work normally on Intelligent undeads.

From d20SRD.org, excerpted from the Undead type entry:
Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).

Morale bonuses are mind-affecting, and do not affect undead.
Count Nerindil Van Seraph
06-09-07, 12:30 PM Yes.

BUT: Barbarian is the single worst choice for an undead. They don't have the most important stat for the class (that's CON for those of you playing at home), they already have the D12 HD (so, really, why bother?) and they can't rage for more than three rounds at a time.
Maraxus
06-09-07, 12:55 PM I would not sign that so absolutely.

What corporeal, intelligent undead are there...

Wight: Melee undead, likes faster movement, damage reduction, improved uncanny dodge and 3 round rages.
Bodak: Okay, not that useful.
Devourer: Useful, like for the Wight.

However, let's put the focus on the template-undead:
Lich: No use at all. I hope there will never be a Lich Barbarien. It's not only ineffective but a story-wise disaster.
Vampire: Most-important. There might be Cha-boosting Dominators but if you want to be an as-kicking Blood-Drain(Ex)er, you will want that class, that gives you full BAB and 3 turns of improved Strength. It's a really useful Dip and with the improving number and strength of the rages a possible class to level in.
Count Nerindil Van Seraph
06-09-07, 01:07 PM I would not sign that so absolutely.

What corporeal, intelligent undead are there...

Wight: Melee undead, likes faster movement, damage reduction, improved uncanny dodge and 3 round rages.
Bodak: Okay, not that useful.
Devourer: Useful, like for the Wight.

However, let's put the focus on the template-undead:
Lich: No use at all. I hope there will never be a Lich Barbarien. It's not only ineffective but a story-wise disaster.
Vampire: Most-important. There might be Cha-boosting Dominators but if you want to be an as-kicking Blood-Drain(Ex)er, you will want that class, that gives you full BAB and 3 turns of improved Strength. It's a really useful Dip and with the improving number and strength of the rages a possible class to level in.

Well... you put it that way... possibly drop one into barbarian and go scout the rest of the way?
Issabella
06-09-07, 01:21 PM Yes.

BUT: Barbarian is the single worst choice for an undead. They don't have the most important stat for the class (that's CON for those of you playing at home), they already have the D12 HD (so, really, why bother?) and they can't rage for more than three rounds at a time.

maybe a vampire who transforms some barbarians as body guards? a barbaric death knight. Not looking at it as a character progression but as an NPC?
Crimson_Concerto
06-09-07, 01:32 PM Undead certainly can rage. Heck, even incorporeal undead can rage. They get a much lower benefit, and their rage will only last 3 rounds, but they can still certainly do it, since Rage is NOT a moral or mind-affecting effect, as some people seem to claim. The +2 bonus to saves vs mind-affecting is a morale bonus, but undead are immune to that anyways, and none of the rest is morale bonus.
bigsnarf
06-09-07, 01:38 PM If this helps for duration of RAGE!!!!!!!,a undead uses its cha for con with that stuff,but I may be wrong.I saw it a book but dont remember which one.I know its a book by WotC.If I am wrong someone let me know please,I hate being wrong.
Count Nerindil Van Seraph
06-09-07, 01:44 PM If this helps for duration of RAGE!!!!!!!,a undead uses its cha for con with that stuff,but I may be wrong.I saw it a book but dont remember which one.I know its a book by WotC.If I am wrong someone let me know please,I hate being wrong.

You're wrong. And your grammar and punctuation are terrible. And you may have TURRETS!!!!!!!!!
Tectorman
06-09-07, 01:49 PM You're wrong. And your grammar and punctuation are terrible. And you may have TURRETS!!!!!!!!!

Are those the swiveling gun mounts or that syndrome that makes people blink a lot?
Count Nerindil Van Seraph
06-09-07, 01:54 PM Are those the swiveling gun mounts or that syndrome that makes people blink a lot?

I was going for the blinking thing, but, good God, what if it was both?
danzibr
06-09-07, 02:17 PM You're wrong. And your grammar and punctuation are terrible. And you may have TURRETS!!!!!!!!!

lol, turrets, like the towers...

Then again, Tourette syndrome (aka Tourette's) may apply. Maybe.

As for the undead raging, yeah, but it would probably stink, as others have already said. Then again, I once read that instead of getting +4 to constitution they simply get 2 bonus hit points per hit die, so they'd still get that bonus.

Dan
Crimson_Concerto
06-09-07, 02:21 PM Then again, I once read that instead of getting +4 to constitution they simply get 2 bonus hit points per hit die, so they'd still get that bonus.You cold rule that so that Raging doesn't suck for them, but I don't think that's RAW at all, and I'd love to know where you heard it. My guess is that it was in a similar discussion and somebody was suggesting how to modify Rage so that they might still benefit?
MagicMouth
06-09-07, 02:27 PM They talk about Undead Barbarians in the Ghostwalk campaign setting book (don´t remember the exact page, but for those who own it: it´s under the part about different character classes in the undead nation of Xaphan).

According to that book, Undead Barbarians use their Charisma modifier to determine the duration of their rage.
Rustmonster
06-09-07, 02:30 PM Apart from that I'd say, that mindless undead can't rage (which won't come up a lot anyway, since they can't have Barbarien Levels)

Of course they can, if they are intellegent undead, they can have class levels.
rampant
06-09-07, 02:33 PM Also the PHB2 varient for barbarians where instead of times per day you enter a frenzied state everytime your hp drops below a certain point doesn't use con. So Templated undead or undead with only a couple racial Hitdice could certainly make use of that.
Count Nerindil Van Seraph
06-09-07, 02:33 PM Of course they can, if they are intellegent undead, they can have class levels.

*FACEPALM*

Apart from that I'd say, that mindless undead can't rage (which won't come up a lot anyway, since they can't have Barbarien Levels)
The_Shaman
06-09-07, 02:49 PM Extend rage (+5 rounds, can be selected several times) is almost a must for undead barbarians imo. Now, they can range, and I even remember - I believe it was from BoVD) an orc vampire barbarian who was one of Orcus's handpicked champions.

Edit: iirc her rage was 3 rounds.
Trannic
06-09-07, 03:18 PM There's an example of a barbarian vampire in Expedition to Castle Ravenloft and he rages for onlt three rounds. So, imo takinf extended rage would be a must.
Salla
06-09-07, 03:48 PM *FACEPALM*

I concur.
ShinoAburame
06-09-07, 04:09 PM They get the short end of the rage length but on the other hand are never fatigued, so it balances out.
They actually make pretty awesome barbarians. My GM told me that all things that would apply to constitution are applied to charisma instead for undead.

Not sure if that's core-rules, but it works pretty good.
cwslyclgh
06-09-07, 04:15 PM If this helps for duration of RAGE!!!!!!!,a undead uses its cha for con with that stuff,but I may be wrong.I saw it a book but dont remember which one.I know its a book by WotC.If I am wrong someone let me know please,I hate being wrong.
instead of telling you are wrong and making fun of you... I will tell you that you are wrong, and I will tell you why

under the standard rules, undead use thier charisma modifier in place of constitution in only one specific case, and that is for making concentration checks.

My GM told me that all things that would apply to constitution are applied to charisma instead for undead.he is wrong too, under the rules as written.
The_Shaman
06-09-07, 04:40 PM They actually make pretty awesome barbarians. My GM told me that all things that would apply to constitution are applied to charisma instead for undead.

Not sure if that's core-rules, but it works pretty good.

Hola, ltns. IIRC Libris Mortis deals with the issue, and it offers an OPTION to allow undead to use charisma for raging. However, this is an option; by RaW they rage for 3 rounds flat.
EpicEvokerElf
06-09-07, 06:01 PM Actually, despite your rejection of his concept (which may have been due to the poor grammar and punctuation), undead can and do use CHA to determine the duration of Rage. I believe the source was Libris Mortis, but don't quote me on that. In any case, doesn't this belong on the Classes board?
Rerecros
06-09-07, 06:14 PM if you want an undead that would make a decent barbarian check out my sig :D
Rustmonster
06-09-07, 06:14 PM *FACEPALM*

Thank you for pointing out my simple mistake while at the same time being a jerk. I am especially greatful to be treated poorly by someone so clever as to give this fascinating insight into the topic:

You're wrong. And your grammar and punctuation are terrible. And you may have TURRETS!!!!!!!!!

It must be wonderful to know that no one is absolutly perfect like you.
cwslyclgh
06-09-07, 06:51 PM undead can and do use CHA to determine the duration of Rage. I believe the source was Libris MortisI have heard this twice on this thread now, but a quick perusing of that book shows no such rule or varient rule, perhaps I am missing it, could somebody provide a page number.

In my mind, it would very odd if it were in the libris mortis (or anywhere else) considering what the official FAQ says about the subject:

Can an undead creature enter a rage? If so what benefit
(if any) does it gain from the Constitution bonus?

An undead creature can indeed enter a rage. Since undead
creatures don’t have a Con score, the bonus to Constitution
provides no benefit (and thus the undead doesn’t gain any extra
hit points when raging).

You didn’t ask about duration, but it’s worth noting that
since the modifier for a nonability is +0 (MM 312), an undead
creature’s rage would last 3 rounds.
Count Nerindil Van Seraph
06-09-07, 07:02 PM It must be wonderful to know that no one is absolutly perfect like you.

Dear lord, you have no idea.
Red_Rabbit
06-09-07, 09:04 PM Sure they can, but the are immune to mind affecting effects and thus moral bonuses. So they would probably only get the Str bonus.

Being Immune to Mind Affecting doesn't make you immune to morale bonus's or penalties.
Salla
06-09-07, 09:06 PM Being Immune to Mind Affecting doesn't make you immune to morale bonus's or penalties.

Yes it does.

From d20SRD.org, excerpted from the Undead type entry:
Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).

Morale bonuses are mind-affecting, and do not affect undead.
runestar
06-09-07, 11:36 PM In case you are wondering, this means that an undead mage cannot benefit from greater heroism.;)

Undead only use cha for concentration checks, IIRC. Anything else would pretty much be a houserule.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
peuty 06-09-07, 09:37 AM	I'm just kind of curious about this. I figure the answer to be no because they have no constitution score, but I wouldn't mind hearing any other points of view or even similar points of view on this subject.
Purkake 06-09-07, 10:08 AM	Sure they can, but the are immune to mind affecting effects and thus moral bonuses. So they would probably only get the Str bonus. If they can run forever thanks to no Con score then I would say that they can also rage forever just take -2 AC and get +4 Str.
JackJester 06-09-07, 10:16 AM	They get the short end of the rage length but on the other hand are never fatigued, so it balances out.
Maraxus 06-09-07, 11:10 AM	Right, no Con in this case means 3 rounds of rage. Apart from that I'd say, that mindless undead can't rage (which won't come up a lot anyway, since they can't have Barbarien Levels) Purkake: Since when are Moral bonus allways "mind effecting" effects? No, they explicitly don't work on Int - creatures but work normally on Intelligent undeads.
Salla 06-09-07, 11:45 AM	Purkake: Since when are Moral bonus allways "mind effecting" effects? No, they explicitly don't work on Int - creatures but work normally on Intelligent undeads. From d20SRD.org, excerpted from the Undead type entry: Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects). Morale bonuses are mind-affecting, and do not affect undead.
Count Nerindil Van Seraph 06-09-07, 12:30 PM	Yes. BUT: Barbarian is the single worst choice for an undead. They don't have the most important stat for the class (that's CON for those of you playing at home), they already have the D12 HD (so, really, why bother?) and they can't rage for more than three rounds at a time.
Maraxus 06-09-07, 12:55 PM	I would not sign that so absolutely. What corporeal, intelligent undead are there... Wight: Melee undead, likes faster movement, damage reduction, improved uncanny dodge and 3 round rages. Bodak: Okay, not that useful. Devourer: Useful, like for the Wight. However, let's put the focus on the template-undead: Lich: No use at all. I hope there will never be a Lich Barbarien. It's not only ineffective but a story-wise disaster. Vampire: Most-important. There might be Cha-boosting Dominators but if you want to be an as-kicking Blood-Drain(Ex)er, you will want that class, that gives you full BAB and 3 turns of improved Strength. It's a really useful Dip and with the improving number and strength of the rages a possible class to level in.
Count Nerindil Van Seraph 06-09-07, 01:07 PM	I would not sign that so absolutely. What corporeal, intelligent undead are there... Wight: Melee undead, likes faster movement, damage reduction, improved uncanny dodge and 3 round rages. Bodak: Okay, not that useful. Devourer: Useful, like for the Wight. However, let's put the focus on the template-undead: Lich: No use at all. I hope there will never be a Lich Barbarien. It's not only ineffective but a story-wise disaster. Vampire: Most-important. There might be Cha-boosting Dominators but if you want to be an as-kicking Blood-Drain(Ex)er, you will want that class, that gives you full BAB and 3 turns of improved Strength. It's a really useful Dip and with the improving number and strength of the rages a possible class to level in. Well... you put it that way... possibly drop one into barbarian and go scout the rest of the way?
Issabella 06-09-07, 01:21 PM	Yes. BUT: Barbarian is the single worst choice for an undead. They don't have the most important stat for the class (that's CON for those of you playing at home), they already have the D12 HD (so, really, why bother?) and they can't rage for more than three rounds at a time. maybe a vampire who transforms some barbarians as body guards? a barbaric death knight. Not looking at it as a character progression but as an NPC?
Crimson_Concerto 06-09-07, 01:32 PM	Undead certainly can rage. Heck, even incorporeal undead can rage. They get a much lower benefit, and their rage will only last 3 rounds, but they can still certainly do it, since Rage is NOT a moral or mind-affecting effect, as some people seem to claim. The +2 bonus to saves vs mind-affecting is a morale bonus, but undead are immune to that anyways, and none of the rest is morale bonus.
bigsnarf 06-09-07, 01:38 PM	If this helps for duration of RAGE!!!!!!!,a undead uses its cha for con with that stuff,but I may be wrong.I saw it a book but dont remember which one.I know its a book by WotC.If I am wrong someone let me know please,I hate being wrong.
Count Nerindil Van Seraph 06-09-07, 01:44 PM	If this helps for duration of RAGE!!!!!!!,a undead uses its cha for con with that stuff,but I may be wrong.I saw it a book but dont remember which one.I know its a book by WotC.If I am wrong someone let me know please,I hate being wrong. You're wrong. And your grammar and punctuation are terrible. And you may have TURRETS!!!!!!!!!
Tectorman 06-09-07, 01:49 PM	You're wrong. And your grammar and punctuation are terrible. And you may have TURRETS!!!!!!!!! Are those the swiveling gun mounts or that syndrome that makes people blink a lot?
Count Nerindil Van Seraph 06-09-07, 01:54 PM	Are those the swiveling gun mounts or that syndrome that makes people blink a lot? I was going for the blinking thing, but, good God, what if it was both?
danzibr 06-09-07, 02:17 PM	You're wrong. And your grammar and punctuation are terrible. And you may have TURRETS!!!!!!!!! lol, turrets, like the towers... Then again, Tourette syndrome (aka Tourette's) may apply. Maybe. As for the undead raging, yeah, but it would probably stink, as others have already said. Then again, I once read that instead of getting +4 to constitution they simply get 2 bonus hit points per hit die, so they'd still get that bonus. Dan
Crimson_Concerto 06-09-07, 02:21 PM	Then again, I once read that instead of getting +4 to constitution they simply get 2 bonus hit points per hit die, so they'd still get that bonus.You cold rule that so that Raging doesn't suck for them, but I don't think that's RAW at all, and I'd love to know where you heard it. My guess is that it was in a similar discussion and somebody was suggesting how to modify Rage so that they might still benefit?
MagicMouth 06-09-07, 02:27 PM	They talk about Undead Barbarians in the Ghostwalk campaign setting book (don´t remember the exact page, but for those who own it: it´s under the part about different character classes in the undead nation of Xaphan). According to that book, Undead Barbarians use their Charisma modifier to determine the duration of their rage.
Rustmonster 06-09-07, 02:30 PM	Apart from that I'd say, that mindless undead can't rage (which won't come up a lot anyway, since they can't have Barbarien Levels) Of course they can, if they are intellegent undead, they can have class levels.
rampant 06-09-07, 02:33 PM	Also the PHB2 varient for barbarians where instead of times per day you enter a frenzied state everytime your hp drops below a certain point doesn't use con. So Templated undead or undead with only a couple racial Hitdice could certainly make use of that.
Count Nerindil Van Seraph 06-09-07, 02:33 PM	Of course they can, if they are intellegent undead, they can have class levels. FACEPALM Apart from that I'd say, that mindless undead can't rage (which won't come up a lot anyway, since they can't have Barbarien Levels)
The_Shaman 06-09-07, 02:49 PM	Extend rage (+5 rounds, can be selected several times) is almost a must for undead barbarians imo. Now, they can range, and I even remember - I believe it was from BoVD) an orc vampire barbarian who was one of Orcus's handpicked champions. Edit: iirc her rage was 3 rounds.
Trannic 06-09-07, 03:18 PM	There's an example of a barbarian vampire in Expedition to Castle Ravenloft and he rages for onlt three rounds. So, imo takinf extended rage would be a must.
Salla 06-09-07, 03:48 PM	FACEPALM I concur.
ShinoAburame 06-09-07, 04:09 PM	They get the short end of the rage length but on the other hand are never fatigued, so it balances out. They actually make pretty awesome barbarians. My GM told me that all things that would apply to constitution are applied to charisma instead for undead. Not sure if that's core-rules, but it works pretty good.
cwslyclgh 06-09-07, 04:15 PM	If this helps for duration of RAGE!!!!!!!,a undead uses its cha for con with that stuff,but I may be wrong.I saw it a book but dont remember which one.I know its a book by WotC.If I am wrong someone let me know please,I hate being wrong. instead of telling you are wrong and making fun of you... I will tell you that you are wrong, and I will tell you why under the standard rules, undead use thier charisma modifier in place of constitution in only one specific case, and that is for making concentration checks. My GM told me that all things that would apply to constitution are applied to charisma instead for undead.he is wrong too, under the rules as written.
The_Shaman 06-09-07, 04:40 PM	They actually make pretty awesome barbarians. My GM told me that all things that would apply to constitution are applied to charisma instead for undead. Not sure if that's core-rules, but it works pretty good. Hola, ltns. IIRC Libris Mortis deals with the issue, and it offers an OPTION to allow undead to use charisma for raging. However, this is an option; by RaW they rage for 3 rounds flat.
EpicEvokerElf 06-09-07, 06:01 PM	Actually, despite your rejection of his concept (which may have been due to the poor grammar and punctuation), undead can and do use CHA to determine the duration of Rage. I believe the source was Libris Mortis, but don't quote me on that. In any case, doesn't this belong on the Classes board?
Rerecros 06-09-07, 06:14 PM	if you want an undead that would make a decent barbarian check out my sig :D
Rustmonster 06-09-07, 06:14 PM	FACEPALM Thank you for pointing out my simple mistake while at the same time being a jerk. I am especially greatful to be treated poorly by someone so clever as to give this fascinating insight into the topic: You're wrong. And your grammar and punctuation are terrible. And you may have TURRETS!!!!!!!!! It must be wonderful to know that no one is absolutly perfect like you.
cwslyclgh 06-09-07, 06:51 PM	undead can and do use CHA to determine the duration of Rage. I believe the source was Libris MortisI have heard this twice on this thread now, but a quick perusing of that book shows no such rule or varient rule, perhaps I am missing it, could somebody provide a page number. In my mind, it would very odd if it were in the libris mortis (or anywhere else) considering what the official FAQ says about the subject: Can an undead creature enter a rage? If so what benefit (if any) does it gain from the Constitution bonus? An undead creature can indeed enter a rage. Since undead creatures don’t have a Con score, the bonus to Constitution provides no benefit (and thus the undead doesn’t gain any extra hit points when raging). You didn’t ask about duration, but it’s worth noting that since the modifier for a nonability is +0 (MM 312), an undead creature’s rage would last 3 rounds.
Count Nerindil Van Seraph 06-09-07, 07:02 PM	It must be wonderful to know that no one is absolutly perfect like you. Dear lord, you have no idea.
Red_Rabbit 06-09-07, 09:04 PM	Sure they can, but the are immune to mind affecting effects and thus moral bonuses. So they would probably only get the Str bonus. Being Immune to Mind Affecting doesn't make you immune to morale bonus's or penalties.
Salla 06-09-07, 09:06 PM	Being Immune to Mind Affecting doesn't make you immune to morale bonus's or penalties. Yes it does. From d20SRD.org, excerpted from the Undead type entry: Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects). Morale bonuses are mind-affecting, and do not affect undead.
runestar 06-09-07, 11:36 PM	In case you are wondering, this means that an undead mage cannot benefit from greater heroism.;) Undead only use cha for concentration checks, IIRC. Anything else would pretty much be a houserule.