Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Arakano 09-13-07, 05:00 AM	Hey hey, long time no post! ;) I am planning on playing a centaur character, but there are still some issues that I'd need help with. If you know the official stance of WotC on any question, please post it. If you don't but want to give your own opinion, please by all means do so. :) Ok, here goes: 1. Can a centaur with class levels and a BAB of 6+ use his hooves attacks as well as his normal iterative (sp?) weapon attacks as a full attack? That is, for example, two attacks with his battle axe (say +10/+5) and two hooves attacks? 2. All the shiny mounted combat feats are really appealing to me, but the problem comes with the first feat of the tree: mounted combat itself. Since I won't HAVE a mount, but basically BE my own mount, it is absolutely worthless except as a qualifier for the upcoming feats. Worse yet, I don't know if I would even be allowed to take it, being no rider and all... 3. Is a centaur able to climb stairs up and down? Can he make a turn around a corner in a normal 5-feet-dungeon tunnel? Because if not, I don't know how he would ever participate in any dungeoneering... :(
Arscura 09-13-07, 05:48 AM	1: I think you need multiattack, not sure though 2: Ask your DM I would say. I would allow you to take it. You also may want to ask if you may go into the Spirited Charge feats by taking Run instead. Thus, changing the prequiste and therefore not needing the ride skill. However, consult with your DM. 3: Well, you are Large (long), thus your face is 5 ft., so you can walk in these hallways. To turn in them you would have to use the squeeze rules (there in PHB if I am correct, under tactical movement). You would be able to do it, but you will take more time (loose movement that needs to be put in the turning, as flyers do with too poor flight capability) and you will loose your Dex to AC. So, yes possible, but slightly difficult.
Omega_Grey 09-13-07, 08:57 AM	1.Yes you would make all your standard attacks with your weapon and two hoof attacks, but all of them would be at a -5 penalty, unless you have multiattack. In which case it would be a -2 penalty on all attacks that round instead. Check out the rules on attack routine in the back of the monster manual for more detail (should be under manufactured weapons). 2.I remember there being some errata for the Centaur about this, saying that they can treat themselves as their own mount for many of these feats, but I dont remember if it comes with any other stipulations. 3.Yes as a large creature you can squeeze through a 5ft space. I think it is in the DMG under 'squeezing' but I may be wrong. Also, as a large creature in 3.5 you just have a face of 10ft, they got rid of the long and tall classifications, just to make sure we are all on the same page there. All of these are by my understanding of the rules, I have no reason to doubt myself, but I have been wrong before if anyone else knows otherwise. Hope it helps and have fun (I always wanted to be a centaur...I can never find a DM that lets monstrous characters though)
Findail 09-13-07, 03:10 PM	I've played centaurs before. One very important tip: make sure you carry plenty of rope and a block-and-tackle. You can't climb ropes, or ladders, or cliffs, or trees, or the sides of pits: unless someone can levitate you, you will occasionally need to be winched up by other party members. In my experience, this was actually a more common problem than the tight-tunnel situation.
Arakano 09-13-07, 03:25 PM	Good tip, Findail. :) Thanks to the others for your answers, you helped me alot!
Crimson_Concerto 09-13-07, 04:45 PM	1. Can a centaur with class levels and a BAB of 6+ use his hooves attacks as well as his normal iterative (sp?) weapon attacks as a full attack? That is, for example, two attacks with his battle axe (say +10/+5) and two hooves attacks?Yes, I'm fairly certain that each hoof can be used once as a secondary attack (with a -5 penalty), but you don't need a BAB of +6 to do this. Taking the Multiattack feat reduces the penalty to -2. 2. All the shiny mounted combat feats are really appealing to me, but the problem comes with the first feat of the tree: mounted combat itself. Since I won't HAVE a mount, but basically BE my own mount, it is absolutely worthless except as a qualifier for the upcoming feats. Worse yet, I don't know if I would even be allowed to take it, being no rider and all...No, Centaurs do not count as mounted for benefiting from such feats, and no, they are not considered to have the Mounted Combat feat for purposes of qualifying for feats with it as a prerequisite. The only exception to this is Spirited Charge, and even then, only if your campaign uses FR material. And no, the Centaur SHOULDN'T be able to do these things either, half-horse or not. Read THIS (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=882342) thread for more information on why, if you really care... However, almost all mounted combat feats have non-mounted equivalents for you to take instead. For example, Trample can be either Improved Overrun or Centaur Trample (RotW), and Ride-By-Attack can be Spring Attack. 3. Is a centaur able to climb stairs up and down? Can he make a turn around a corner in a normal 5-feet-dungeon tunnel? Because if not, I don't know how he would ever participate in any dungeoneering... :(I don't see why not, logically or rules-wise, but this isn't really a matter of the rules unless you're talking about the penalties involved.. It's a matter of whether your DM feels like being a prick or not, so your only option is really to ask him. I don't have a problem with centaurs ascending or descending stairs, though, and I think they're able to squeeze through such spaces just as humans can squeeze through smaller passageways. Squeezing rules should suffice.
Xiuhcoatl 09-13-07, 05:19 PM	1. Can a centaur with class levels and a BAB of 6+ use his hooves attacks as well as his normal iterative (sp?) weapon attacks as a full attack? That is, for example, two attacks with his battle axe (say +10/+5) and two hooves attacks? Starting at the level he obtains those hooves, he can use them as a secondary attack in a full attack routine at a -5 penalty. 2. All the shiny mounted combat feats are really appealing to me, but the problem comes with the first feat of the tree: mounted combat itself. Since I won't HAVE a mount, but basically BE my own mount, it is absolutely worthless except as a qualifier for the upcoming feats. Worse yet, I don't know if I would even be allowed to take it, being no rider and all... As per the precedent with the Inevitables, where one counts as mounted for purposes of prerequisites because of it's "centaur-like construction" ... centaurs, having centaur-like construction, are treated as mounted for purposes of prerequisites. 3. Is a centaur able to climb stairs up and down? Can he make a turn around a corner in a normal 5-feet-dungeon tunnel? Because if not, I don't know how he would ever participate in any dungeoneering... :( Horses have some ability to climb up and down stairs, but they cannot climb walls. A spider climb spell would fix those problems, however. And a Centaur may be able to turn around.
Arakano 09-13-07, 05:35 PM	To make myself clear, I know they could use hooves along with an armed attack, I was only wondering whether they could use them along with iterative attacks with a weapon... ;) But I consider that question settled. As for the mounted-combat feats, I see good arguments for both sides of the discussion. I would try to convince my DM to allow at least spirited charge, however, since the lance-rule for riders applies to centaurs as well. By extension, I would see the spirited charge feat as justified. Of course, it might need a different prerequisite - maybe some other charge-feat, or the run feat as was suggested.
Crimson_Concerto 09-13-07, 05:37 PM	As per the precedent with the Inevitables, where one counts as mounted for purposes of prerequisites because of it's "centaur-like construction" ... centaurs, having centaur-like construction, are treated as mounted for purposes of prerequisites.Completely unrelated. It's always brought up when this question is asked, but it's always thrown out because it has no relevance. Click on the link I posted above for more information on why. ;)
Xiuhcoatl 09-13-07, 07:16 PM	Completely unrelated. It's always brought up when this question is asked, but it's always thrown out because it has no relevance. Click on the link I posted above for more information on why. ;) Hi, thanks for stirring up a pointless argument. As you know, this has been done to death. There are other precedents: I believe Races of the Wild states they qualify, and I know that Races of Faerun states they qualify as well. We could argue this to the end of days, so instead I'll simply opt for this: most sane DMs would allow it, and it is as close to RAW as the consequences of hunger are.
BaseDeltaZero 09-13-07, 08:27 PM	Hi, thanks for stirring up a pointless argument. As you know, this has been done to death. There are other precedents: I believe Races of the Wild states they qualify, and I know that Races of Faerun states they qualify as well. We could argue this to the end of days, so instead I'll simply opt for this: most sane DMs would allow it, and it is as close to RAW as the consequences of hunger are. It's hardly pointless, seeing as how it was one of the initial questions. I'd say allow Spirited Charge - it's prerequisite might not make that much since, but the 'momentum' purposes do, and there is no equivalent feat that I know of (if there is, that should be used instead). Trample might be acceptable as well. Although replaced in Races of the Wild (I suppose you should use the new version if you have it), again, no other feat does what it does. As Crimson Concerto was saying, the rest of the mounted combat tree doesn't make sense, because they rely on interaction between mount and rider. The requirements are tougher, but they are more easily available in different circumstances. However, generaly, any feat that would be both logical and flavorful I allow if it isn't available another way. I mean, if Wingover had a requirement of 'flying mount', I'd cry BS too.
Crimson_Concerto 09-13-07, 08:43 PM	Hi, thanks for stirring up a pointless argument.As BaseDeltaZero has already said, it was part of the initial question, which is why I answered. As you know, this has been done to death.Which is why I've pointed both the OP and yourself to another thread that already goes through the entire argument. There are other precedents: I believe Races of the Wild states they qualify, and I know that Races of Faerun states they qualify as well.No, RoF states they qualify for Spirited Charge (which I already mentioned above), and RotW says nothing at all, though it does introduce the Centaur Trample feat. We could argue this to the end of days...Or you could just read the other thread I've directed you to and give up now. ;) ...so instead I'll simply opt for this: most sane DMs would allow it, and it is as close to RAW as the consequences of hunger are.Most sane DMs see that the centaur is not mounted. However, it bears mentioning that most DMs are not sane... Not that that's a bad thing... And also, not that they weren't sane going into the job, but it's most likely how they'll leave it. :D