Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kearif 03-15-07, 01:41 PM	I've noticed that humanoids being born without souls happens fairly often in fantacy gaming. So, I'm challenging you to come up with a level adjustment +0 race that dosen't have souls, or maybe a collection of races or a template that doesn't increase the LA. Have fun, Get Creative.
Kazeofwinds 03-15-07, 03:08 PM	Off the top of my head idea: Template: Soulburned. A soulburned creature, for whatever reason, lacks a soul. Soulless: A soulburned creature can not be ressurected by any means short of a Limited Wish, Wish or Miracle spell. In addition, a soulburned is immune to effects that target its soul or spirit, such as the spirt bottle spell. Undetectable alignment: Creatures without souls tend to resonate poorly with the outer planes, making their alignment impossible to discern, a creature attempting to discern a soulburned creature's alignment only sense a sense of great emptiness or void. LA+0 Your soul= 8000 GP magic item. :p
Angelflesh 03-15-07, 07:44 PM	There is a Soulless template in Creature Collection III, but the creature becomes undead.
Kearif 07-18-07, 11:35 PM	Thank you Kazeofwinds for your creativity. Here's a fun Idea just keep this going, Could a soulless character cast divine spells?
ArochanoX 07-19-07, 11:03 AM	For soulless creatures: give them a drain soul ability: Drain Soul A soulless can spend a fullround-action that provokes attacks of opportunity to drain a soul of a dying foe. You bend over a fallen creature and if you succeed a DC 15 heal check and in conjuction with a spellcraft check DC 10+creature's HD, you take the soul of the creature, kill it instantly (no saves) and the creature cannot be resurrected unless wish, miracle or higher level magic is used. The soulless creature consumes the soul during the round, but it's benefits last for 1 hour: +1 profane bonus on attack rolls, saves, skill checks, AC and ability checks. For every 5 HD the creature has more than you, the profane bonus you gain is increased by +1. If the creature has 10 or fewer hit dice than you, you may not gain any profane bonuses. Soulless creatures lack their soul. They have a constant urge to feed on other's souls to feel even the slightest glimpses of joy of having a soul.
Kearif 07-19-07, 09:13 PM	Someone suggested to me the fun of having a soulless character searching for his/her soul and in the process stopping whatever evil is stopping souls from reaching their persons.
Lawlicron 07-19-07, 10:01 PM	For soulless creatures: give them a drain soul ability: Drain Soul A soulless can spend a fullround-action that provokes attacks of opportunity to drain a soul of a dying foe. You bend over a fallen creature and if you succeed a DC 15 heal check and in conjuction with a spellcraft check DC 10+creature's HD, you take the soul of the creature, kill it instantly (no saves) and the creature cannot be resurrected unless wish, miracle or higher level magic is used. The soulless creature consumes the soul during the round, but it's benefits last for 1 hour: +1 profane bonus on attack rolls, saves, skill checks, AC and ability checks. For every 5 HD the creature has more than you, the profane bonus you gain is increased by +1. If the creature has 10 or fewer hit dice than you, you may not gain any profane bonuses. Soulless creatures lack their soul. They have a constant urge to feed on other's souls to feel even the slightest glimpses of joy of having a soul. I think the basis of the discussion is to make a LA+0 soulless race. And being able to force someone to wish/miracle people back to life is an LA+.
ArochanoX 07-19-07, 11:47 PM	Well it has not much any game effect, since about all foes that are meant to be killed will never be resurrected. The problem is to adjust the profane bonus to be so low, that it doesn't warrant LA.
Kearif 07-20-07, 11:57 AM	Drain soul could be a class feature, either an alternate feature something from a soulless prestige class. It is a really cool trick and a smart DM could have some fun with NPC reaction to it and soulless creatures.
Lawlicron 07-20-07, 12:03 PM	It is a really cool trick and a smart DM could have some fun with NPC reaction to it and soulless creatures. A DM could also have fun permanently killing most of your characters with the soul drain too. But I do think it is better suited for a PrC.
Lawlicron 07-20-07, 12:06 PM	Well it has not much any game effect, since about all foes that are meant to be killed will never be resurrected. The problem is to adjust the profane bonus to be so low, that it doesn't warrant LA. Its actually a big game effect. You get a bonus to pretty much everything for spending a full round action. Look at it this way though, a soulless NPC comes and soul drains a PC.
AllWillFall2Me 07-20-07, 05:43 PM	I think that a couple of these abilities/drawbacks would fit a soulless person Beyond Fear: Lacking a soul, It is amazingly difficult to frighten or impress you. You receive a +4 bonus on saves against fear effects. Without Heart: Your lack of a soul causes all your emotions to be unmodifiable. You are immune to morale penalties or bonuses. Stare of the Soulless: The eyes are the window to the soul, and the emptiness behind yours scares people. You gain a +2 bonus on Intimidate checks. Loose grip on Life: Without a soul to fight for life, you are far more likely to fall into Death's clutches. You must succeed on stabilization rolls twice to stabilize.
Banatine 07-20-07, 05:56 PM	Tying in with stare of the soulless, i think they should also pive others a penalty to sense motive against them since it's difficult to read a blank page.
Salla 07-20-07, 06:08 PM	The hard part about this is that different people have different views of what being 'soulless' entails, even to the point of determining if it's a benefit or a hindrance. The obvious downside is that you can't be brought back from the dead. For me, I'd think upsides would be immunity to possession (no soul to supplant) or any spell or effect that specifically affects souls/spirits (invalid target), and a +4 bonus against all mind-affecting effects (more centered). Debatable if that's worth an LA as a race, though it probably would be as a template.
Rerecros 07-20-07, 06:29 PM	To my understanding, the soul in D&D refers to the force animating the body, to remove a soul and still be kicking around means to be undead. So my answer is necropolitan :D When some one sells their soul, that means to me that they've sold themselves to fiends and become outsiders upon their death, but while alive they are marked by the evil subtype.
IdleAltruism 07-20-07, 08:02 PM	The Soulless This is an inherited template that can be applied to any living creature. LA+0 -2 cha, Not having a soul has a negative effect on your relationships with others. Other living beings can sense something isn't normal about you and so can you. The emotional turmoil caused by being soulless hinders their ability to relate to others. They tend to be very negative and have a continuous sense of hopelessness. Gain one of the following as a bonus feat even if the character does not meet the prerequisite. Life sense(libris mortis) Omniscient Whispers(unearthed arcana), -1 will saves Godsight(Lost Empires of Faerun) Spellcasting Prodigy(Forgotten realms Campaign) Great Fortitude, Iron Will(Players handbook) Character cannot be raised or resurrected short of a wish or miracle.
locustechpriest 07-20-07, 11:01 PM	Working backward: IdleAltruism It seems to me that your idea is a bit unbalanced (a'la Kobold). I would just take a flaw to get the bonus feat, although evading qualifications might be nice (I can't look at any of the suggested feats). All in all, though, I would tend to think that the threat of permanent death and having, on average, more people wanting to kill you (low Cha) would be a high price for an extra feat from a short list... AllWillFall2Me Very interesting, and intuitive set of abilities. I will hit them in order. Beyond Fear: Lacking a soul, It is amazingly difficult to frighten or impress you. You receive a +4 bonus on saves against fear effects. Looks nice, makes sense, though it might be a little strong. Elves have only a +2 v. Enchantment, IIRC, so I would probably go in that proportion as well. Without Heart: Your lack of a soul causes all your emotions to be unmodifiable. You are immune to morale penalties or bonuses. Makes sense, balanced in favor and against. Of course, your allies know what will help you, but your enemies (assuming no prior research) don't know your strength. That might put it more in your favor. Stare of the Soulless: The eyes are the window to the soul, and the emptiness behind yours scares people. You gain a +2 bonus on Intimidate checks. It has been said, but I would agree to add a -2 penalty for uses of Sense Motive against you, or at least a +2 on your Bluffs. Loose grip on Life: Without a soul to fight for life, you are far more likely to fall into Death's clutches. You must succeed on stabilization rolls twice to stabilize. I disagree with this one. If you are at risk of near permanent death, then lets not make you more vulnerable. You are likely to have a disproportionate squad of enemies as it is. (That scary look in your eye, people don't like it.) ArochanoX Drain Soul A soulless can spend a fullround-action that provokes attacks of opportunity to drain a soul of a dying foe. You bend over a fallen creature and if you succeed a DC 15 heal check and in conjuction with a spellcraft check DC 10+creature's HD, you take the soul of the creature, kill it instantly (no saves) and the creature cannot be resurrected unless wish, miracle or higher level magic is used. The soulless creature consumes the soul during the round, but it's benefits last for 1 hour: +1 profane bonus on attack rolls, saves, skill checks, AC and ability checks. For every 5 HD the creature has more than you, the profane bonus you gain is increased by +1. If the creature has 10 or fewer hit dice than you, you may not gain any profane bonuses. Soulless creatures lack their soul. They have a constant urge to feed on other's souls to feel even the slightest glimpses of joy of having a soul. This doesn't fit my image of a soulless person, but I will roll with it. I would not "destroy" the consumed soul, that is just too cruel. I would instead have it trapped in the person for a period of time, maybe a week, or at least unavailable for resurrecting-type effects. I also think the profane bonus should scale not based on how much more powerful the victim is than the "vampire", but simply how powerful the creature is. I might also cut back on the range of bonuses. Hope I have helped! ;)
runestar 07-20-07, 11:17 PM	Would having no soul mean you are unable to cast divine magic? For example, the Kir Lanen in FR setting are soulless, and as a result, no deity will answer their prayers. Would there be anything broken about making a soulless divine spellcaster cha-based instead?
IdleAltruism 07-20-07, 11:40 PM	Would having no soul mean you are unable to cast divine magic? For example, the Kir Lanen in FR setting are soulless, and as a result, no deity will answer their prayers. Would there be anything broken about making a soulless divine spellcaster cha-based instead? From what I'm reading they can't become clerics because they are infused with negative energy. And in the FR settings if I'm not mistaken divine power only comes from gods. I would think that a soulless being could tap into divine power regardless(If an individual believes in an ideal they can draw power from that source). From what I remember from deities and demigods, the spells clerics cast from the gods are not granted by the gods, they are just using the divine power that flows from the gods themselves. In FR souls are a very important aspect of religion, in other settings it might not be so important. I would think making divine casters CHA would unbalance a few aspects. Favored souls would then be pure charisma, clerics would have better turning checks(Although this would lower the clerics will save). Paladins wouldn't have to invest anything in wisdom. I think it would hurt druids by lowering their will save for a stat that doesn't do anything for them.
Lord_Cerventes 07-24-07, 06:51 PM	Bump
Lionhearted 07-24-07, 07:06 PM	beyond fear and without heart takes out eachother as fear is a moral condition, thus.. you are immune against fear
Lawlicron 07-24-07, 07:44 PM	How about this • +2 Con, -2 Wis, -2 Cha. The Soulless are detached from reality and apathetic to others, but their bodies become hardened and tough. • Humanoid: Soulless are of the humanoid type • Size: Medium • Soulless base land speed is 30 ft. • Low-light vision: The Soulless can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. They retain the ability to distinguish color and detail under these condition. The Soulless have fearless eyes that pierce through dim conditions. • Without Heart: Your lack of a soul causes all your emotions to be unmodifiable. You are immune to morale penalties or bonuses and are immune to fear affects. • Stare of the Soulless: The eyes are the window to the soul, and the emptiness behind yours unnerves people. You gain a +4 bonus on intimidate and bluff checks and a -4 penalty to handle animal checks. Also using the sense motive skill on a Soulless receives a -2 penalty. • Heavy Price to Pay: As a soulless being, you cannot be resurrected by any means. • Sleepless: Soulless have the ability to sleep, but Soulless do not actually need sleep to function. This strange side effect of lacking a soul and lacking the need for sleep has yet to be explained. • Automatic Languages: Common. Bonus Languages: Any • Favored Class: Warblade (Fighter, if your still upset they made melee not suck)
Septuris 07-24-07, 07:45 PM	-2 Cha : A Soulless character is less empathic in social encounters. +2 Con, +2 Fort Saves: A Soulless character's disregard for self preservation results in heightened toughness. Disregard for Life: A Soulless character does not fall unconscious when s/he falls below 0 HP. A Soulless character still dies when s/he reaches -10 HP. Empty Shell: A Soulless character that dies can only be revived via a Wish or Miracle spell. Godless: A Soulless character cannot cast divine magic or choose a deity. I think this gives an interesting but balanced +0 LA race. Just writing this post has me contemplating making a character using this! :D
Lawlicron 07-24-07, 07:53 PM	-2 Cha : A Soulless character is less empathic in social encounters. +2 Con, +2 Fort Saves: A Soulless character's disregard for self preservation results in heightened toughness. Disregard for Life: A Soulless character does not fall unconscious when s/he falls below 0 HP. A Soulless character still dies when s/he reaches -10 HP. Empty Shell: A Soulless character that dies can only be revived via a Wish or Miracle spell. Godless: A Soulless character cannot cast divine magic or choose a deity. I think this gives an interesting but balanced +0 LA race. Just writing this post has me contemplating making a character using this! :D Actually I think it lacks enough to be considered a race. It doesn't really have much that makes you go "Oh I'd like to play one of these". It has 2 big penalties and semi-balanced adjustments. But what do they really gain? Great Fortitude and Diehard without taking the req? I don't think many people take those feats based solely on the principal that they suck.
Lionhearted 07-25-07, 11:54 AM	How about this • +2 Con, -2 Wis, -2 Cha. The Soulless are detached from reality and apathetic to others, but their bodies become hardened and tough. • Humanoid: Soulless are of the humanoid type • Size: Medium • Soulless base land speed is 30 ft. • Low-light vision: The Soulless can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. They retain the ability to distinguish color and detail under these condition. The Soulless have fearless eyes that pierce through dim conditions. • Without Heart: Your lack of a soul causes all your emotions to be unmodifiable. You are immune to morale penalties or bonuses and are immune to fear affects. • Stare of the Soulless: The eyes are the window to the soul, and the emptiness behind yours unnerves people. You gain a +4 bonus on intimidate and bluff checks and a -4 penalty to handle animal checks. Also using the sense motive skill on a Soulless receives a -2 penalty. • Heavy Price to Pay: As a soulless being, you cannot be resurrected by any means. • Sleepless: Soulless have the ability to sleep, but Soulless do not actually need sleep to function. This strange side effect of lacking a soul and lacking the need for sleep has yet to be explained. • Automatic Languages: Common. Bonus Languages: Any • Favored Class: Warblade (Fighter, if your still upset they made melee not suck) change ressurected by any means to miracle or wish and i think we got a winner, just an opinion :)
Lawlicron 07-25-07, 12:13 PM	change ressurected by any means to miracle or wish and i think we got a winner, just an opinion :) • +2 Con, -2 Wis, -2 Cha. The Soulless are detached from reality and apathetic to others, but their bodies become hardened and tough. • Humanoid: Soulless are of the humanoid type • Size: Medium • Soulless base land speed is 30 ft. • Low-light vision: The Soulless can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. They retain the ability to distinguish color and detail under these condition. The Soulless have fearless eyes that pierce through dim conditions. • Without Heart: Your lack of a soul causes all your emotions to be unmodifiable. You are immune to morale penalties or bonuses and are immune to fear affects. • Stare of the Soulless: The eyes are the window to the soul, and the emptiness behind yours unnerves people. You gain a +4 bonus on intimidate and bluff checks and a -4 penalty to handle animal checks. Also using the sense motive skill on a Soulless receives a -2 penalty. • Heavy Price to Pay: As a soulless being, you can only be resurrected by a wish or miracle spell. • Sleepless: Soulless have the ability to sleep, but Soulless do not actually need sleep to function. This strange side effect of lacking a soul and lacking the need for sleep has yet to be explained. • Automatic Languages: Common. Bonus Languages: Any • Favored Class: Warblade (Fighter, if your still upset they made melee not suck) and done.
Septuris 07-25-07, 03:09 PM	Actually I think it lacks enough to be considered a race. It doesn't really have much that makes you go "Oh I'd like to play one of these". It has 2 big penalties and semi-balanced adjustments. But what do they really gain? Great Fortitude and Diehard without taking the req? I don't think many people take those feats based solely on the principal that they suck. Hmm, I guess it is a little lacking in extras. It could be applied as a template onto another race, such as human or half-orc, with no problems.
Infernostrider 07-25-07, 03:22 PM	meh a soulless creature, imo, should have a -1 or -2 level adjustment just because of the imposed limits. the only upside is that soul removing effects have no use, but neither will soulrestoring (when you're dead, your soul leaves the body. GOODBYE! wish/miracle should be able to fix it, but so would an animation spell...you'd be a construc or undead by all accounts)
Lawlicron 07-25-07, 03:39 PM	meh a soulless creature, imo, should have a -1 or -2 level adjustment just because of the imposed limits. the only upside is that soul removing effects have no use, but neither will soulrestoring (when you're dead, your soul leaves the body. GOODBYE!) Heres the reason why there aren't negative LAs, the race is too good for casters. All casters will simply roll that race and be better than everyone else immediately. Its like a party of Cleric 2(Soulless), Druid 2(Soulless), Wizard 2(Soulless), Rouge 1(Human), Fighter 1(Human). That would throw any semblance of balance right out the window, and even worse if it were LA-2.
Kearif 07-25-07, 05:11 PM	Does anyone think that there should be deferences for souless born from humans, elves, dwarves, orcs, halfings, etc? What creature types have souls, is it just humanoids or do monstrous humanoids and giants have souls, and what about dragons, abberrations, animals, vermin, and the other types?
Lawlicron 07-25-07, 05:41 PM	Does anyone think that there should be deferences for souless born from humans, elves, dwarves, orcs, halfings, etc? What creature types have souls, is it just humanoids or do monstrous humanoids and giants have souls, and what about dragons, abberrations, animals, vermin, and the other types? That would be better fitted to a template that has an LA. What I wrote up could be interpreted most easily as a race that has been consistently denied its soul through each generation or an off-shoot of a human who has been denied a soul for some reason.
asurademon 07-25-07, 10:13 PM	Well, defining the soul is a bit problematic, but one simple definition is that the soul is the force which animates a person, and is their "self", after all very often a soul is thought of as a person's true self (I really don't think this definition quite does the soul justice, especially when one realizes many other things could be responsible for a person's sense of self, and biological processes can at least to some extent explain what animates an organism. I think if there is a soul it's largely beyond human comprehension. But for D&D I think this definition works). A soulless being could end up being some sort of mindless automation animated by another force (a construct). Some people have mentioned undead, while clearly some force other than a soul animates at least the mindless ones, the more intelligent undead do have a sense of self, which suggests a soul or something close enough to it to act as a substitute. I suppose a soulless person could be a human-like being animated via magic, with some sort of artificially created personality (which would allow them to parrot human behavior to an extent, and maybe even provide some sort of sense of self, but would still leave them relatively empty, and make them have a hard time relating to people or being related to). I think the stats Lawlicron gave for souless would work pretty well for this sort of souless person. However I'd have them have to maintain their false life force through some means, either by draining other people's life forces (in which case I'd make them undead) or by having them feed on magic.