Changing up the Tiefling [Archive] - Wizards Community

Changing up the Tiefling [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Whirling Dervish
06-24-07, 10:35 PM Would anyone see an issue with changing the tiefling's stat modifiers from +2 Dex +2 Int -2 Cha to +2 Int and +2 Cha?

A player of mine would like to play a succubus-descended tiefling and I thought the negative to charisma was a bit harsh in that regard. It doesn't seem unbalanced to me, but I thought I'd ask the wise sages of the forums.
Tytalus
06-24-07, 10:52 PM Would anyone see an issue with changing the tiefling's stat modifiers from +2 Dex +2 Int -2 Cha to +2 Int and +2 Cha?

A player of mine would like to play a succubus-descended tiefling and I thought the negative to charisma was a bit harsh in that regard. It doesn't seem unbalanced to me, but I thought I'd ask the wise sages of the forums.

Seems fine and actually brings them up to the level of Aasimars.

Note than the planetouched in general are rather underpowered for their LA, unless you allow LA-buyoff [UA] or Lesser Planetouched [PGTF].
AMGriffin
06-24-07, 11:58 PM I'd say +2 Dexterity, +2 Charisma might work a bit better, what does he/she want to play?

I'd say just give them +2 Charisma, and a +2 to Dexterity or intelligence, depending on which is more useful to the player's class.
Whirling Dervish
06-25-07, 12:34 AM The player wants to play a warlock, which can definitely benefit from the bonus to charisma. In the interest on not tailoring the race completely to the class, I thought the Int bonus was more appropriate, but also brought the Tiefling more in line with the aasimar (bonuses to two mental stats), which another character in the campaign is planning on playing.

As a side note, I was reading in PGTF about the lesser versions of tieflings/aasimars and noticed that all it did to decrease the LA was change the type to humanoid (planetouched). While a significant part of the LA, I thought this wasn't quite enough, personally. Any thoughts on that?
Rerecros
06-25-07, 12:43 AM Changelings would be a better option than a tiefling if you just change the fluff to say they are descendant from succubi.
Polaris
06-25-07, 04:49 AM Would anyone see an issue with changing the tiefling's stat modifiers from +2 Dex +2 Int -2 Cha to +2 Int and +2 Cha?

A player of mine would like to play a succubus-descended tiefling and I thought the negative to charisma was a bit harsh in that regard. It doesn't seem unbalanced to me, but I thought I'd ask the wise sages of the forums.

I have to say that I've never understood the Tiefling Cha penalty except as 'tradition'. That said, contrary to what some are telling you, Tieflings are actually a very strong LA+1 race especially when you consider that they all automatically have all martial weapon proficiencies (by virtue of being outsiders). That said, I'd have no problem with the change. For an LA+1 race, +2 Int/+2 Cha actually seems weaker than +2Dex/+2Int/-2Cha because the LA hurts casting badly. Honestly if you made Tieflings +2 Dex/+2 Int they'd still probably rate LA+1 albeit barely IMHO.

-Polaris

Edit PS: Actually a bonus to charisma or even a high charisma in general is not as useful to the Warlock as one might think. In fact a warlock can do just fine with an average or even low charisma. Dex is probably more important to a warlock than Charisma.
Mai_ariti
06-25-07, 09:28 AM As a side note, I was reading in PGTF about the lesser versions of tieflings/aasimars and noticed that all it did to decrease the LA was change the type to humanoid (planetouched). While a significant part of the LA, I thought this wasn't quite enough, personally. Any thoughts on that?

Well, you have to remember, as a humanoid, they can now be affected by all those Person spells that come at a much lower level than their Monster counterparts. Basically that leaves them with the ability to cast Darkness and have good ability modifiers. . .not all that much. . .
Mai_ariti
06-25-07, 09:33 AM . . .especially when you consider that they all automatically have all martial weapon proficiencies (by virtue of being outsiders).

Sorry, I may be wrong but don't you have to have a racial HD to reap the benifits of the Outsider type? I mean Tieflings don't automatically get the Outsider 8+Int skill points. . .I think they don't get the benifits of weapon proficiencies unless they have at least 1 HD as an Outsider.

Likely I'm wrong, however, so please correct me.
Eerongal
06-25-07, 09:44 AM Starting Level of a Monster PC
Monsters suitable for play have a level adjustment given in their statistics. Add a monster’s level adjustment to its Hit Dice and class levels to get the creature’s effective character level, or ECL. Effectively, monsters with a level adjustment become multiclass character when they take class levels. A creature’s “monster class” is always a favored class, and the creature never takes XP penalties for having it.

Humanoids and Class Levels
Creatures with 1 or less HD replace their monster levels with their character levels. The monster loses the attack bonus, saving throw bonuses, skills, and feats granted by its 1 monster HD and gains the attack bonus, save bonuses, skills, feats, and other class abilities of a 1st-level character of the appropriate class.

Characters with more than 1 Hit Die because of their race do not get a feat for their first class level as members of the common races do, and they do not multiply the skill points for their first class level by four. Instead, they have already received a feat for their first Hit Die because of race, and they have already multiplied their racial skill points for their first Hit Die by four.

Emphasis mine.

I've always taken this as only humanoids replace their first HD with a class level, meaning as an outsider, a tiefling would NOT do so. Although i could be wrong on this too, but that's what i've always assumed since its under the section of HUMANOIDS and class levels
Polaris
06-25-07, 12:02 PM Well, you have to remember, as a humanoid, they can now be affected by all those Person spells that come at a much lower level than their Monster counterparts. Basically that leaves them with the ability to cast Darkness and have good ability modifiers. . .not all that much. . .

Also remember that the Lesser-Planetouched races are of questionable balance and even the PGTF says that if you use them, you should not use the standard versions.

Sorry, I may be wrong but don't you have to have a racial HD to reap the benifits of the Outsider type? I mean Tieflings don't automatically get the Outsider 8+Int skill points. . .I think they don't get the benifits of weapon proficiencies unless they have at least 1 HD as an Outsider.

Likely I'm wrong, however, so please correct me

You are wrong. This has been confirmed by WOTC btw even though Rich Baker objects that it wasn't what he originally intented. Specifically if you look on page 313 of the Monster Manual under "Outsider" you will find two entries: Outsider Features which do require the presence of outsider hit-dice, and Outsider Traits which do not. All creatures get the traits of their type (be it humanoid, plant, undead, outsider, etc) unless the specific sub-type or specific racial description explicitly states differently.

On page 313 under Outsider traits you will find "Proficient with all Simple and Martial Weapons" and you will find nothing in either the Native Subtype or Tiefling race description that counteracts this.

Ergo, all Tieflings and indeed all creatures with the Outsider type from whatever source get all simple and martial weapon proficiencies unless specifically told otherwise.

-Polaris
Polaris
06-25-07, 12:04 PM Emphasis mine.

I've always taken this as only humanoids replace their first HD with a class level, meaning as an outsider, a tiefling would NOT do so. Although i could be wrong on this too, but that's what i've always assumed since its under the section of HUMANOIDS and class levels

Nope. That applies to any creature that has one hit-dice. Your quoted section even says this and doesn't explicitly differentiate. Otherwise Elan couldn't get their first character class level either, and that seems clearly wrong. The title is misleading.

-Polaris
Whirling Dervish
06-25-07, 03:24 PM Thanks for all of the responses, guys!

This has helped me get a better idea of the tiefling in general, and I never realized that planetouched got martial weapon proficiencies. Hopefully my players won't realize this; I'm not telling. :P

I think I'm going to go with +2 Int / +2 Cha, mostly because it fits better with the backstory (succubus lineage) and makes the tiefling more in line with the Aasimar (which another player is planning on playing.)
Deamhan
06-25-07, 08:35 PM This question was already answered in one of the Sage comments IIRC. Yes, if your subtype is *insert here* you get all the benifits and drawbacks therein.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Whirling Dervish 06-24-07, 10:35 PM	Would anyone see an issue with changing the tiefling's stat modifiers from +2 Dex +2 Int -2 Cha to +2 Int and +2 Cha? A player of mine would like to play a succubus-descended tiefling and I thought the negative to charisma was a bit harsh in that regard. It doesn't seem unbalanced to me, but I thought I'd ask the wise sages of the forums.
Tytalus 06-24-07, 10:52 PM	Would anyone see an issue with changing the tiefling's stat modifiers from +2 Dex +2 Int -2 Cha to +2 Int and +2 Cha? A player of mine would like to play a succubus-descended tiefling and I thought the negative to charisma was a bit harsh in that regard. It doesn't seem unbalanced to me, but I thought I'd ask the wise sages of the forums. Seems fine and actually brings them up to the level of Aasimars. Note than the planetouched in general are rather underpowered for their LA, unless you allow LA-buyoff [UA] or Lesser Planetouched [PGTF].
AMGriffin 06-24-07, 11:58 PM	I'd say +2 Dexterity, +2 Charisma might work a bit better, what does he/she want to play? I'd say just give them +2 Charisma, and a +2 to Dexterity or intelligence, depending on which is more useful to the player's class.
Whirling Dervish 06-25-07, 12:34 AM	The player wants to play a warlock, which can definitely benefit from the bonus to charisma. In the interest on not tailoring the race completely to the class, I thought the Int bonus was more appropriate, but also brought the Tiefling more in line with the aasimar (bonuses to two mental stats), which another character in the campaign is planning on playing. As a side note, I was reading in PGTF about the lesser versions of tieflings/aasimars and noticed that all it did to decrease the LA was change the type to humanoid (planetouched). While a significant part of the LA, I thought this wasn't quite enough, personally. Any thoughts on that?
Rerecros 06-25-07, 12:43 AM	Changelings would be a better option than a tiefling if you just change the fluff to say they are descendant from succubi.
Polaris 06-25-07, 04:49 AM	Would anyone see an issue with changing the tiefling's stat modifiers from +2 Dex +2 Int -2 Cha to +2 Int and +2 Cha? A player of mine would like to play a succubus-descended tiefling and I thought the negative to charisma was a bit harsh in that regard. It doesn't seem unbalanced to me, but I thought I'd ask the wise sages of the forums. I have to say that I've never understood the Tiefling Cha penalty except as 'tradition'. That said, contrary to what some are telling you, Tieflings are actually a very strong LA+1 race especially when you consider that they all automatically have all martial weapon proficiencies (by virtue of being outsiders). That said, I'd have no problem with the change. For an LA+1 race, +2 Int/+2 Cha actually seems weaker than +2Dex/+2Int/-2Cha because the LA hurts casting badly. Honestly if you made Tieflings +2 Dex/+2 Int they'd still probably rate LA+1 albeit barely IMHO. -Polaris Edit PS: Actually a bonus to charisma or even a high charisma in general is not as useful to the Warlock as one might think. In fact a warlock can do just fine with an average or even low charisma. Dex is probably more important to a warlock than Charisma.
Mai_ariti 06-25-07, 09:28 AM	As a side note, I was reading in PGTF about the lesser versions of tieflings/aasimars and noticed that all it did to decrease the LA was change the type to humanoid (planetouched). While a significant part of the LA, I thought this wasn't quite enough, personally. Any thoughts on that? Well, you have to remember, as a humanoid, they can now be affected by all those Person spells that come at a much lower level than their Monster counterparts. Basically that leaves them with the ability to cast Darkness and have good ability modifiers. . .not all that much. . .
Mai_ariti 06-25-07, 09:33 AM	. . .especially when you consider that they all automatically have all martial weapon proficiencies (by virtue of being outsiders). Sorry, I may be wrong but don't you have to have a racial HD to reap the benifits of the Outsider type? I mean Tieflings don't automatically get the Outsider 8+Int skill points. . .I think they don't get the benifits of weapon proficiencies unless they have at least 1 HD as an Outsider. Likely I'm wrong, however, so please correct me.
Eerongal 06-25-07, 09:44 AM	Starting Level of a Monster PC Monsters suitable for play have a level adjustment given in their statistics. Add a monster’s level adjustment to its Hit Dice and class levels to get the creature’s effective character level, or ECL. Effectively, monsters with a level adjustment become multiclass character when they take class levels. A creature’s “monster class” is always a favored class, and the creature never takes XP penalties for having it. Humanoids and Class Levels Creatures with 1 or less HD replace their monster levels with their character levels. The monster loses the attack bonus, saving throw bonuses, skills, and feats granted by its 1 monster HD and gains the attack bonus, save bonuses, skills, feats, and other class abilities of a 1st-level character of the appropriate class. Characters with more than 1 Hit Die because of their race do not get a feat for their first class level as members of the common races do, and they do not multiply the skill points for their first class level by four. Instead, they have already received a feat for their first Hit Die because of race, and they have already multiplied their racial skill points for their first Hit Die by four. Emphasis mine. I've always taken this as only humanoids replace their first HD with a class level, meaning as an outsider, a tiefling would NOT do so. Although i could be wrong on this too, but that's what i've always assumed since its under the section of HUMANOIDS and class levels
Polaris 06-25-07, 12:02 PM	Well, you have to remember, as a humanoid, they can now be affected by all those Person spells that come at a much lower level than their Monster counterparts. Basically that leaves them with the ability to cast Darkness and have good ability modifiers. . .not all that much. . . Also remember that the Lesser-Planetouched races are of questionable balance and even the PGTF says that if you use them, you should not use the standard versions. Sorry, I may be wrong but don't you have to have a racial HD to reap the benifits of the Outsider type? I mean Tieflings don't automatically get the Outsider 8+Int skill points. . .I think they don't get the benifits of weapon proficiencies unless they have at least 1 HD as an Outsider. Likely I'm wrong, however, so please correct me You are wrong. This has been confirmed by WOTC btw even though Rich Baker objects that it wasn't what he originally intented. Specifically if you look on page 313 of the Monster Manual under "Outsider" you will find two entries: Outsider Features which do require the presence of outsider hit-dice, and Outsider Traits which do not. All creatures get the traits of their type (be it humanoid, plant, undead, outsider, etc) unless the specific sub-type or specific racial description explicitly states differently. On page 313 under Outsider traits you will find "Proficient with all Simple and Martial Weapons" and you will find nothing in either the Native Subtype or Tiefling race description that counteracts this. Ergo, all Tieflings and indeed all creatures with the Outsider type from whatever source get all simple and martial weapon proficiencies unless specifically told otherwise. -Polaris
Polaris 06-25-07, 12:04 PM	Emphasis mine. I've always taken this as only humanoids replace their first HD with a class level, meaning as an outsider, a tiefling would NOT do so. Although i could be wrong on this too, but that's what i've always assumed since its under the section of HUMANOIDS and class levels Nope. That applies to any creature that has one hit-dice. Your quoted section even says this and doesn't explicitly differentiate. Otherwise Elan couldn't get their first character class level either, and that seems clearly wrong. The title is misleading. -Polaris
Whirling Dervish 06-25-07, 03:24 PM	Thanks for all of the responses, guys! This has helped me get a better idea of the tiefling in general, and I never realized that planetouched got martial weapon proficiencies. Hopefully my players won't realize this; I'm not telling. :P I think I'm going to go with +2 Int / +2 Cha, mostly because it fits better with the backstory (succubus lineage) and makes the tiefling more in line with the Aasimar (which another player is planning on playing.)
Deamhan 06-25-07, 08:35 PM	This question was already answered in one of the Sage comments IIRC. Yes, if your subtype is insert here you get all the benifits and drawbacks therein.