Childhoods of the long-lived races. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Childhoods of the long-lived races. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Evandar_TAybara
03-06-07, 11:14 AM This must have been asked dozens of times before, but I can't track anything down, so sorry for the repetition. I believe that an Order of the Stick comic covered this, but it is a serious question that makes quite a difference to my campaign.

How quickly do the long-lived races grow up?
For example: Elves are listed as reaching adulthood at the age of 110 - the equivalent of a 15 year old human. By this basis, a rough calculation would give about 7.5 elven years to every human year during childhood. I'm guessing this doesn't actually work out like this however, I find it hard to beleive that an elven child would not be weaned until its second decade, or that it would still be a todler in its thirties. So how exactly does it work? Do they grow up at a similar rate to humans in the first few years then have a exceedingly long "teenage" period? Do they grow up just as quickly as humans, but elven society dictates that they are "not adults" until into their second century and are not allowed to strike out on their own. However it turns out, are elves incredibly slow learners, as they take decades to learn what a human would in a couple of years? Or is the century of childhood partially responsibly for elven racial traits due to years of experience and training in certain fields?

Evan.
valcarde
03-06-07, 07:23 PM Some material I've read suggested that elves did have a slow growth to adulthood.

I suppose it depends on how the DM wishes to adjucate it in his campaign...
Bluehero
03-06-07, 07:49 PM From dragon magazine issue 279: Elves are fertile from their coming of age until around age 550. Elven child hood takes about 50 years, then there is another 50 year span between childhood and full adolecence.There's more there, but that is the part thaty answers your question.
SolenVlos
03-06-07, 07:58 PM ow yeah...that's right.
40 years in diapers.
Finfreeze
03-06-07, 08:30 PM I can't help but think that most elves' diaries are filled with entries such as the following:

Crescentmoon the 3rd
Today was lots of fun. I stared at a tree for most of the day. Then I stood on a rock. I hope to have more exciting adventures tomorrow!

Keep in mind that elves trance for four hours instead of sleeping, which means they're awake for 20 hours each day instead of 16 hours. So basically, an elven child's waking childhood is 9.16666666... times longer than a human's. In that time, they learn far less than a human does in 15 years. Astounding.
SilvercatMoonpaw
03-06-07, 09:17 PM A sidebar in Races of the Wild says that humans and elves grow at pretty much the same rate up till age 15, where humans grow a little faster to age 20 while elves don't achieve that state till age 25. The figure of 110 years is just the age when most elves feel ready to go out and adventure. It has nothing to do with intellectual maturity.

This may not sit well with those people who want to read 110 years as an "official rule" because of the fact that there should therefore be a horde of high-level elves running around. If elves and humans learn at the same rate then shouldn't elves attain levels the staggering levels of old humans while still young?

Bull-:censored:. And I mean that in a nice way.

Elves could just be taking their time learning. They choose to go slowly, dabbling, trying out many different fields to find the one they like, perfecting the really easy stuff, etc. If you've got at least 500 years (barring accidents) why rush into stuff? Humans learn fast because they've got to cram stuff into something like average lifespan 40 years. This whole "elves learn slower than humans" arguement falls apart when the adventuring elf gains levels and their abilties at the same rate as humans. Once they get into the situation where they have to learn as fast as humans they learn as fast as humans.

Since when is it assumed that age = level? Can't you have level 6 human commoners who are wrinkled old men? Same dealy with elves: age does not automatically equal more levels. More levels = more training, more time spent trying to get better faster.
AMGriffin
03-06-07, 09:36 PM You can always go with the old idea that innately elves are lazy bastards who do nothing but frolic around and have sex with eachother.
Tarascon
03-06-07, 09:42 PM You can always go with the old idea that innately elves are lazy bastards who do nothing but frolic around and have sex with eachother.

Hear hear, brother. Hear hear.

Back on topic: I don't know about regular elves, but I know drow grow up pretty fast; Drizz't got shipped off to the fighter's academy at age 16. Ouch. This probably compensates for the fact that not many drow reach old age however. You know, the assasinations and such...
Narthon
03-06-07, 09:53 PM Hear hear, brother. Hear hear.

Back on topic: I don't know about regular elves, but I know drow grow up pretty fast; Drizz't got shipped off to the fighter's academy at age 16. Ouch. This probably compensates for the fact that not many drow reach old age however. You know, the assasinations and such...

Maybe it is the type of society where males are trained as warriors almost from birth. Maybe it is like sending a 3 or 4 year old to military school. I think that is what I would go for in my games.
Finfreeze
03-06-07, 10:03 PM It's a wonder elves survive to reach childbearing age, considering the large number of ambush predators that hang around in temperate forests. The temperate forests sample encounter table is easily the largest of all the environments, and it only gets larger when you add in "Any Environment" monsters. I'd be especially afraid of monstrous spiders, giant praying mantises, tendriculoses, and assassin vines. That's not even mentioning the aggressive hunters like dire wolves and giant wasps or the spawn-creating undead.
stargate525
03-06-07, 10:10 PM Simple game mechanics answer, it's for balance.

Real-world answer, I really have no idea. My guess is that they simply take an exceedingly long time going through the relative ages of 11-19.

It's a wonder elves survive to reach childbearing age, considering the large number of ambush predators that hang around in temperate forests. The temperate forests sample encounter table is easily the largest of all the environments, and it only gets larger when you add in "Any Environment" monsters. I'd be especially afraid of monstrous spiders, giant praying mantises, tendriculoses, and assassin vines. That's not even mentioning the aggressive hunters like dire wolves and giant wasps or the spawn-creating undead.
Don't you know those things only attack people when there are adventurers around? Either they're the targets or they attack the people the heroes need to save...
AMGriffin
03-06-07, 10:11 PM ^or the more intelligent hunters of the woods like gnolls
benihana
03-06-07, 10:12 PM You can only gain skills and feats if you gain levels, you gain only gain levels if you gain XP, and you only gain XP if you adventure. Adventuring involves immediate danger to your life. That's why your adult level 1 character has 0 XP. He's done nothing heroic.

An elf can spend 50 years being a blacksmith, or hunter, or a farmer, or a militiaman. But unless his life is actually in mortal danger at any one point, he'll never gain experience. At best, he might have gained a handful of XP once from killing a particularly vicious animal or something, but the years of doing nothing else afterwards just sort of made it fade away.

An elf could start adventuring at age 100 and be at level 20 by the time he's 110. A human could theoretically just remain a farmer and die at age 90 as a level 1 commoner.
Finfreeze
03-06-07, 10:40 PM Gnolls tend to live in warm plains. Elves do have to contend with kobolds, though.

You can only gain skills and feats if you gain levels, you gain only gain levels if you gain XP, and you only gain XP if you adventure. Adventuring involves immediate danger to your life. That's why your adult level 1 character has 0 XP. He's done nothing heroic.

Bear in mind that the average metropolis will have about 4 epic-level commoners and will probably have at least one epic expert.
Arcane_Mark
03-06-07, 10:52 PM Hola mis amigos!!!

I personally like the idea of elves growing up with humans. It is like ya I am 16 and your 16 but I still have 684 to live..instead of I have about 590 years to live...........

(Arcane_Mark)

P.S: Does any one know an ACCURATE conversion of human years to elf years using the core age? like a 16 year human would be X years in elven?

Gracias!
benihana
03-06-07, 11:08 PM Bear in mind that the average metropolis will have about 4 epic-level commoners and will probably have at least one epic expert.

Epic-level commoners did something then. That goon that you hired way back when at first level to haul your stuff into the dungeon? Well, maybe he made a career of it. He's not a particularly good fighter and probably can't even read, but he's been on hundreds of expeditions into the deep, carrying loot for all manner of heroes and surviving.
Courrain
03-06-07, 11:32 PM You can only gain skills and feats if you gain levels, you gain only gain levels if you gain XP, and you only gain XP if you adventure. Adventuring involves immediate danger to your life. That's why your adult level 1 character has 0 XP. He's done nothing heroic.

An elf can spend 50 years being a blacksmith, or hunter, or a farmer, or a militiaman. But unless his life is actually in mortal danger at any one point, he'll never gain experience. At best, he might have gained a handful of XP once from killing a particularly vicious animal or something, but the years of doing nothing else afterwards just sort of made it fade away.

An elf could start adventuring at age 100 and be at level 20 by the time he's 110. A human could theoretically just remain a farmer and die at age 90 as a level 1 commoner.

Since Dungeons and Dragons is a rpg that focuses only on adventuring, and not on civilization as a whole, everything done in the course of a setting adventure will net you some XPs for your player character. And those XPs in turn will push your character closer to gaining a new level with new skills and feats to boot. BUT adventuring doesn't always involve your player character risking life and limb in some dungeon. Sometime the adventure will involve solving a mystery or some other completely bloodless thing. ;)

At any rate, it's really up to the DM to be the final arbiter on how much XP your player character is really going to get. :teach: :bow:

Now with regards to NPCs such as the above 50 year old Elven Expert, of course he's not going to get XP. He's not a PC. He's a walking, talking, interactive prop of the DM's. :P The DM can make this NPC as powerful or as weak as he or she wants. The DM will use them to help move the plot along and then put them into the closet until needed again.
HOWEVER, if Dungeons and Dragons was a skill-based game and not a character class-based game, every action in and outside of an adventure could get a player character or even a non-player character XP! :) So with our 50 year old Elven Expert, he would be accruing XP even if he never adventures during his entire life. He just won't be gaining them at the same rate that a player character would. Life = XP! ;)

So why is D&D character-class based and not skill-based? *curious*
benihana
03-07-07, 12:20 AM Since Dungeons and Dragons is a rpg that focuses only on adventuring, and not on civilization as a whole, everything done in the course of a setting adventure will net you some XPs for your player character. And those XPs in turn will push your character closer to gaining a new level with new skills and feats to boot. BUT adventuring doesn't always involve your player character risking life and limb in some dungeon. Sometime the adventure will involve solving a mystery or some other completely bloodless thing. ;)
The way I've always seen it, you don't gain XP (or you gain XP at a greatly reduced rate) if your life is not in danger from whatever is going on. Fixing a wagon wheel might use your craft skill, but you don't get XP because there's no immediate danger if you complete it now, in an hour, or in a day. Now, if you needed the wheel to go to town to collect supplies to create the anti-toxin to the poison you just ingested... that's an adventure.
Evandar_TAybara
03-08-07, 02:56 AM Thanks for your input, guys and gals :)
Far_Traveler
03-08-07, 03:21 PM This reminds me of the time my (elf) character was reduced to infancy (Wild surge- Polymorph any object, failed both saves, duration instantaneous).

I had to spend an entire adventure carried around by the cleric to see if they could reverse it.

Eventually, they found a way to instead replicate the effect and used it on eachother, and as it was an all-elf group, 2 sessions later (DM insisted on a small baby adventure for exposition) she started with: "120 years later..."

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Evandar_TAybara 03-06-07, 11:14 AM	This must have been asked dozens of times before, but I can't track anything down, so sorry for the repetition. I believe that an Order of the Stick comic covered this, but it is a serious question that makes quite a difference to my campaign. How quickly do the long-lived races grow up? For example: Elves are listed as reaching adulthood at the age of 110 - the equivalent of a 15 year old human. By this basis, a rough calculation would give about 7.5 elven years to every human year during childhood. I'm guessing this doesn't actually work out like this however, I find it hard to beleive that an elven child would not be weaned until its second decade, or that it would still be a todler in its thirties. So how exactly does it work? Do they grow up at a similar rate to humans in the first few years then have a exceedingly long "teenage" period? Do they grow up just as quickly as humans, but elven society dictates that they are "not adults" until into their second century and are not allowed to strike out on their own. However it turns out, are elves incredibly slow learners, as they take decades to learn what a human would in a couple of years? Or is the century of childhood partially responsibly for elven racial traits due to years of experience and training in certain fields? Evan.
valcarde 03-06-07, 07:23 PM	Some material I've read suggested that elves did have a slow growth to adulthood. I suppose it depends on how the DM wishes to adjucate it in his campaign...
Bluehero 03-06-07, 07:49 PM	From dragon magazine issue 279: Elves are fertile from their coming of age until around age 550. Elven child hood takes about 50 years, then there is another 50 year span between childhood and full adolecence.There's more there, but that is the part thaty answers your question.
SolenVlos 03-06-07, 07:58 PM	ow yeah...that's right. 40 years in diapers.
Finfreeze 03-06-07, 08:30 PM	I can't help but think that most elves' diaries are filled with entries such as the following: Crescentmoon the 3rd Today was lots of fun. I stared at a tree for most of the day. Then I stood on a rock. I hope to have more exciting adventures tomorrow! Keep in mind that elves trance for four hours instead of sleeping, which means they're awake for 20 hours each day instead of 16 hours. So basically, an elven child's waking childhood is 9.16666666... times longer than a human's. In that time, they learn far less than a human does in 15 years. Astounding.
SilvercatMoonpaw 03-06-07, 09:17 PM	A sidebar in Races of the Wild says that humans and elves grow at pretty much the same rate up till age 15, where humans grow a little faster to age 20 while elves don't achieve that state till age 25. The figure of 110 years is just the age when most elves feel ready to go out and adventure. It has nothing to do with intellectual maturity. This may not sit well with those people who want to read 110 years as an "official rule" because of the fact that there should therefore be a horde of high-level elves running around. If elves and humans learn at the same rate then shouldn't elves attain levels the staggering levels of old humans while still young? Bull-:censored:. And I mean that in a nice way. Elves could just be taking their time learning. They choose to go slowly, dabbling, trying out many different fields to find the one they like, perfecting the really easy stuff, etc. If you've got at least 500 years (barring accidents) why rush into stuff? Humans learn fast because they've got to cram stuff into something like average lifespan 40 years. This whole "elves learn slower than humans" arguement falls apart when the adventuring elf gains levels and their abilties at the same rate as humans. Once they get into the situation where they have to learn as fast as humans they learn as fast as humans. Since when is it assumed that age = level? Can't you have level 6 human commoners who are wrinkled old men? Same dealy with elves: age does not automatically equal more levels. More levels = more training, more time spent trying to get better faster.
AMGriffin 03-06-07, 09:36 PM	You can always go with the old idea that innately elves are lazy bastards who do nothing but frolic around and have sex with eachother.
Tarascon 03-06-07, 09:42 PM	You can always go with the old idea that innately elves are lazy bastards who do nothing but frolic around and have sex with eachother. Hear hear, brother. Hear hear. Back on topic: I don't know about regular elves, but I know drow grow up pretty fast; Drizz't got shipped off to the fighter's academy at age 16. Ouch. This probably compensates for the fact that not many drow reach old age however. You know, the assasinations and such...
Narthon 03-06-07, 09:53 PM	Hear hear, brother. Hear hear. Back on topic: I don't know about regular elves, but I know drow grow up pretty fast; Drizz't got shipped off to the fighter's academy at age 16. Ouch. This probably compensates for the fact that not many drow reach old age however. You know, the assasinations and such... Maybe it is the type of society where males are trained as warriors almost from birth. Maybe it is like sending a 3 or 4 year old to military school. I think that is what I would go for in my games.
Finfreeze 03-06-07, 10:03 PM	It's a wonder elves survive to reach childbearing age, considering the large number of ambush predators that hang around in temperate forests. The temperate forests sample encounter table is easily the largest of all the environments, and it only gets larger when you add in "Any Environment" monsters. I'd be especially afraid of monstrous spiders, giant praying mantises, tendriculoses, and assassin vines. That's not even mentioning the aggressive hunters like dire wolves and giant wasps or the spawn-creating undead.
stargate525 03-06-07, 10:10 PM	Simple game mechanics answer, it's for balance. Real-world answer, I really have no idea. My guess is that they simply take an exceedingly long time going through the relative ages of 11-19. It's a wonder elves survive to reach childbearing age, considering the large number of ambush predators that hang around in temperate forests. The temperate forests sample encounter table is easily the largest of all the environments, and it only gets larger when you add in "Any Environment" monsters. I'd be especially afraid of monstrous spiders, giant praying mantises, tendriculoses, and assassin vines. That's not even mentioning the aggressive hunters like dire wolves and giant wasps or the spawn-creating undead. Don't you know those things only attack people when there are adventurers around? Either they're the targets or they attack the people the heroes need to save...
AMGriffin 03-06-07, 10:11 PM	^or the more intelligent hunters of the woods like gnolls
benihana 03-06-07, 10:12 PM	You can only gain skills and feats if you gain levels, you gain only gain levels if you gain XP, and you only gain XP if you adventure. Adventuring involves immediate danger to your life. That's why your adult level 1 character has 0 XP. He's done nothing heroic. An elf can spend 50 years being a blacksmith, or hunter, or a farmer, or a militiaman. But unless his life is actually in mortal danger at any one point, he'll never gain experience. At best, he might have gained a handful of XP once from killing a particularly vicious animal or something, but the years of doing nothing else afterwards just sort of made it fade away. An elf could start adventuring at age 100 and be at level 20 by the time he's 110. A human could theoretically just remain a farmer and die at age 90 as a level 1 commoner.
Finfreeze 03-06-07, 10:40 PM	Gnolls tend to live in warm plains. Elves do have to contend with kobolds, though. You can only gain skills and feats if you gain levels, you gain only gain levels if you gain XP, and you only gain XP if you adventure. Adventuring involves immediate danger to your life. That's why your adult level 1 character has 0 XP. He's done nothing heroic. Bear in mind that the average metropolis will have about 4 epic-level commoners and will probably have at least one epic expert.
Arcane_Mark 03-06-07, 10:52 PM	Hola mis amigos!!! I personally like the idea of elves growing up with humans. It is like ya I am 16 and your 16 but I still have 684 to live..instead of I have about 590 years to live........... (Arcane_Mark) P.S: Does any one know an ACCURATE conversion of human years to elf years using the core age? like a 16 year human would be X years in elven? Gracias!
benihana 03-06-07, 11:08 PM	Bear in mind that the average metropolis will have about 4 epic-level commoners and will probably have at least one epic expert. Epic-level commoners did something then. That goon that you hired way back when at first level to haul your stuff into the dungeon? Well, maybe he made a career of it. He's not a particularly good fighter and probably can't even read, but he's been on hundreds of expeditions into the deep, carrying loot for all manner of heroes and surviving.
Courrain 03-06-07, 11:32 PM	You can only gain skills and feats if you gain levels, you gain only gain levels if you gain XP, and you only gain XP if you adventure. Adventuring involves immediate danger to your life. That's why your adult level 1 character has 0 XP. He's done nothing heroic. An elf can spend 50 years being a blacksmith, or hunter, or a farmer, or a militiaman. But unless his life is actually in mortal danger at any one point, he'll never gain experience. At best, he might have gained a handful of XP once from killing a particularly vicious animal or something, but the years of doing nothing else afterwards just sort of made it fade away. An elf could start adventuring at age 100 and be at level 20 by the time he's 110. A human could theoretically just remain a farmer and die at age 90 as a level 1 commoner. Since Dungeons and Dragons is a rpg that focuses only on adventuring, and not on civilization as a whole, everything done in the course of a setting adventure will net you some XPs for your player character. And those XPs in turn will push your character closer to gaining a new level with new skills and feats to boot. BUT adventuring doesn't always involve your player character risking life and limb in some dungeon. Sometime the adventure will involve solving a mystery or some other completely bloodless thing. ;) At any rate, it's really up to the DM to be the final arbiter on how much XP your player character is really going to get. :teach: :bow: Now with regards to NPCs such as the above 50 year old Elven Expert, of course he's not going to get XP. He's not a PC. He's a walking, talking, interactive prop of the DM's. :P The DM can make this NPC as powerful or as weak as he or she wants. The DM will use them to help move the plot along and then put them into the closet until needed again. HOWEVER, if Dungeons and Dragons was a skill-based game and not a character class-based game, every action in and outside of an adventure could get a player character or even a non-player character XP! :) So with our 50 year old Elven Expert, he would be accruing XP even if he never adventures during his entire life. He just won't be gaining them at the same rate that a player character would. Life = XP! ;) So why is D&D character-class based and not skill-based? curious
benihana 03-07-07, 12:20 AM	Since Dungeons and Dragons is a rpg that focuses only on adventuring, and not on civilization as a whole, everything done in the course of a setting adventure will net you some XPs for your player character. And those XPs in turn will push your character closer to gaining a new level with new skills and feats to boot. BUT adventuring doesn't always involve your player character risking life and limb in some dungeon. Sometime the adventure will involve solving a mystery or some other completely bloodless thing. ;) The way I've always seen it, you don't gain XP (or you gain XP at a greatly reduced rate) if your life is not in danger from whatever is going on. Fixing a wagon wheel might use your craft skill, but you don't get XP because there's no immediate danger if you complete it now, in an hour, or in a day. Now, if you needed the wheel to go to town to collect supplies to create the anti-toxin to the poison you just ingested... that's an adventure.
Evandar_TAybara 03-08-07, 02:56 AM	Thanks for your input, guys and gals :)
Far_Traveler 03-08-07, 03:21 PM	This reminds me of the time my (elf) character was reduced to infancy (Wild surge- Polymorph any object, failed both saves, duration instantaneous). I had to spend an entire adventure carried around by the cleric to see if they could reverse it. Eventually, they found a way to instead replicate the effect and used it on eachother, and as it was an all-elf group, 2 sessions later (DM insisted on a small baby adventure for exposition) she started with: "120 years later..."