Construct Races: Maug [Archive] - Wizards Community

Construct Races: Maug [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
terosthefrozen
12-24-06, 12:00 AM I'm looking to build a character based on the Maug living construct race. A friend of mine mentioned something about constructs getting an hp bonus based on hardness, or something of the like. I like the sound of this idea, or anything else that helps to add hp since constructs lack a Con bonus to hp. does anyone know an official method of compensating for Con bonus hp on a construct?
enygmatic_me
12-24-06, 12:06 AM You could just use the hardness as a replacement for the Con.

Out of curiosity, is their a reason you would rather play this over a Warforged?
Borris
12-24-06, 09:24 AM In edition 3.5, a construct gains bonus hit point sbased on its size. A large construct, such as a maug, would gain 30 bonus hit points. This should probably bump the level adjustment by an extra +1.

The Improved Toughness feat, from Complete Warrior, will also give you one extra hp per hit die, as if you had a +1 Constitution modifier.
terosthefrozen
12-24-06, 09:55 AM i prefer maug over warforged mostly for the large size and 10ft reach. the natural armor and ability bonuses are nice too. This character is mostly to try something interesting in a higher-end campaign.
obrysii
12-24-06, 10:32 AM In edition 3.5, a construct gains bonus hit point sbased on its size. A large construct, such as a maug, would gain 30 bonus hit points. This should probably bump the level adjustment by an extra +1.

The Improved Toughness feat, from Complete Warrior, will also give you one extra hp per hit die, as if you had a +1 Constitution modifier.

The +1 LA bump is not needed. It's simply a function of the Construct type. The Maugs, as they are now, are balanced.
terosthefrozen
12-24-06, 10:47 AM so as a large construct i would gain 30 hp. so that would be one of those things that is really useful early on and not so useful in later levels... but for now, its worthwhile. thank you all.
Borris
12-24-06, 12:20 PM 30 hp at low levels is enormous! That's more than what the average fighter will get in three levels. And even for a level 20 maug (which should have 2 construct HD and 15 class levels), it's worth almost as much as twice the Improved Toughness feat (which is in no way a bad feat).

With reach, high speed, very high natural armor, high Str as well as bonuses to Dex, Int, and Cha, and no penalty to Wis, all construct immunities, rapid repair, a natural weapon, and free proficiency with heavy armor and two-bladed sword, it's already well worth its +3 LA. With the new 30 hp bonus, I'd definitely raise that to +4 before allowing it in my games. Of course, as always, your DM's opinion may vary.

Here's how LA would be determined, using Savage Species' guidelines:
The Construct type is automatically worth a +1 LA.
Unbalanced ability scores (Str +10, Dex +4, Int +2, Cha +2) is worth a +1 LA.
A natural armor bonus under +10 (+7 in this case) is worth a +1 LA.
A 10-foot reach is worth another +1 LA.
The bonus to skill checks and bonus weapon proficiency could be worth a feat together, but Craft (stonemasonry) and Knowledge (architecture and engineering) are of little enough use that it's probably not worth it.
You already have a fair +4 level adjustment; the +30 hp is just a very thick icing on the cake.

Now the acid test. Take a 1st-level maug fighter vs a 7th-level human fighter, both with a +1 greatsword and +1 full plate, and both using the fighter's elite array given in the DMG, except the Maug can afford to put his 8 in Con, and thus improve his other scores.

Hp
Human: 57
Maug: 51
Winner: Human, but not my much

AC
Human: 20
Maug: 29
Winner: Maug, by a long shot

Attack
Human: +12/+7 (2d6+7) - (assuming Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization)
OR +10/+5 (2d6+11) - (with -2 Power Attack penalty)
Maug: +10 (3d6+13) - (without either feat)
Winner: Maug. The human fighter gets two attacks, but will deal less damage, even with Power Attack. Furthermore, with a better speed and greater reach, the Maug threatens a much bigger area than the human.

Saves
Human: +7/+3/+3
Maug: +2/+2/+1
Winner: Human. Maug has slightly lower Will and Reflex saves. Fort is much lower, but as the Maug is immune to anything that doesn't also work on object, he's pretty safe on that side.

Overall, both characters seem pretty much even, which is a good indications that the LA is about right. With a lower LA, I'd be comparing the Maug to a 6th-level fighter, The construct would then have more hp, and attack damage would be even more unbalanced in his favor.
terosthefrozen
12-24-06, 06:53 PM first off, i want to thank you for the effort you put into that, it was more than necessary, but very useful. you are right, i will talk with my DM about the extra LA, because it does make sense. we are however running a higher-powered campaign than normal with mostly monster characters, so i might use +3 to be more balanced with the party. thanks again!
User5127
12-24-06, 07:11 PM If you get into epic level play you can have a wizard use the fortify seed to actually give you a con score. and thus gain bonus HP from your HD...

nothing about a construct or undead say they can't have a con score, just that they lack one. but the fortify seed specifically states that you can give some one a score even if the previously didn't have one.

so chalk up a 20 con to your construct and enjoy all the immunities and improved fort save and extra HP now.

just remember that on a technicallity when your con hits 0 you die. (how ever you are immune to ability damage/drain. so you should be good.)
GhostStepper
12-26-06, 12:45 AM I was seriously considering playing a maug and decided against it because i felt the lack of a Con score was just too crippling.

+30 hp is almost necessary to remain a decent melee'r at ECL 6 (your firsr character level) and its downright pitiful if your playing into higher levels. By the time your level 20, many melee characters easily have a Con of 20+ after items and have atleast 100 bonus hp. Many things with the same LA as a maug can have many more than that. The other thing that sucks is that once you hit 0 hp your destroyed outright. No negatives...no getting stablized...you just gone.

There are some fixed though. As some have pointed out Improved Toughness can net you a few extra hp. If your willing to go psionic you could always dip psion for the psycrystal and use the Vigor, Share Pain combo to get some crazy extra HP. Id think going Psywar could be pretty good and then using expanded knowledge to pick up Share Pain. Psycrystal + Share Pain + Vigor and youve got a ton of staying power.
ArochanoX
12-26-06, 01:25 PM Maug is a powerful opponent with it's current LA. Though +1 to the existing LA is overreacting. Maug loses it's power the higher the level is. The maug's +30 Hp can be though as +5 Con modifier at levels 0-6. Not so much. Even a dwarf with 18 to con can do that. Maug actually has very few hitpoints, but that is countered with the superhigh AC.

The biggest problem of the maug is insane AC: +7 Natural, +3 racial Dex modifier, -1 size. That's 9 more than a similar human fighter. Don't be surprised if Maug hits AC 40 before level 10.

Other problem is very low saves. Construct HD and +2 LA really hurts. Luckily maugs are constructs and thus immune to many spells and abilities. Take 1 level of monk or favored soul to counter that.

Damage the maug does is good, but not extraordinary as Borris showed before. The best aspect of being a maug is the reach. Though you can get reach with half-ogre more easily. (+2 LA, no RHD, Races of Destiny)

I think Maug is powerful for it's ECL but not overpowered.
terosthefrozen
12-26-06, 01:28 PM im actually going full monk for my remaining levels, so i have good saves and great damage with a monk's belt.
User5127
12-26-06, 09:02 PM don't forget, get a mage to epic you up some permanent fortified con score. then you are set with bonus HP.
Johny_Favourite
03-20-07, 05:50 PM Always loved Maugs, the background is so great as well. Managed to play a straight laced Maug fighter for a Planescape game, with a party of conscrpts and mercs for the Blood War; fantastic fun.
Part-Human2
03-20-07, 06:40 PM Temporary HPs such as from the spell False Life. Improved Toughness feat has been mentioned. There is a Trait from UA that grants the same bonus as Improved Toughness. Take a PrC that grants Fast Healing and or Damage Reduction. Maug's have SR also.
runestar
03-20-07, 09:53 PM Maugs definitely make good fighters, despite their glaring lack of a con score and HD. The bonus hp helps at lower lvs, though it becomes pitifully little at higher lvs(though it always help). Still, with your higher than average AC and construct immunities, they should be able to offset your lower hp score.

As mentioned earlier, try to rely on multiple sources of temp hp. A spell-storing weapon with vampiric touch is a great way of starting each battle. Aid is always nice. I have no idea how he is supposed to access false life. There may be other sources of temp hp (remember that temp hp from the same source do not stack, but temp hp from multiple different sources will stack), but I can't think of any at the moment.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
terosthefrozen 12-24-06, 12:00 AM	I'm looking to build a character based on the Maug living construct race. A friend of mine mentioned something about constructs getting an hp bonus based on hardness, or something of the like. I like the sound of this idea, or anything else that helps to add hp since constructs lack a Con bonus to hp. does anyone know an official method of compensating for Con bonus hp on a construct?
enygmatic_me 12-24-06, 12:06 AM	You could just use the hardness as a replacement for the Con. Out of curiosity, is their a reason you would rather play this over a Warforged?
Borris 12-24-06, 09:24 AM	In edition 3.5, a construct gains bonus hit point sbased on its size. A large construct, such as a maug, would gain 30 bonus hit points. This should probably bump the level adjustment by an extra +1. The Improved Toughness feat, from Complete Warrior, will also give you one extra hp per hit die, as if you had a +1 Constitution modifier.
terosthefrozen 12-24-06, 09:55 AM	i prefer maug over warforged mostly for the large size and 10ft reach. the natural armor and ability bonuses are nice too. This character is mostly to try something interesting in a higher-end campaign.
obrysii 12-24-06, 10:32 AM	In edition 3.5, a construct gains bonus hit point sbased on its size. A large construct, such as a maug, would gain 30 bonus hit points. This should probably bump the level adjustment by an extra +1. The Improved Toughness feat, from Complete Warrior, will also give you one extra hp per hit die, as if you had a +1 Constitution modifier. The +1 LA bump is not needed. It's simply a function of the Construct type. The Maugs, as they are now, are balanced.
terosthefrozen 12-24-06, 10:47 AM	so as a large construct i would gain 30 hp. so that would be one of those things that is really useful early on and not so useful in later levels... but for now, its worthwhile. thank you all.
Borris 12-24-06, 12:20 PM	30 hp at low levels is enormous! That's more than what the average fighter will get in three levels. And even for a level 20 maug (which should have 2 construct HD and 15 class levels), it's worth almost as much as twice the Improved Toughness feat (which is in no way a bad feat). With reach, high speed, very high natural armor, high Str as well as bonuses to Dex, Int, and Cha, and no penalty to Wis, all construct immunities, rapid repair, a natural weapon, and free proficiency with heavy armor and two-bladed sword, it's already well worth its +3 LA. With the new 30 hp bonus, I'd definitely raise that to +4 before allowing it in my games. Of course, as always, your DM's opinion may vary. Here's how LA would be determined, using Savage Species' guidelines: The Construct type is automatically worth a +1 LA. Unbalanced ability scores (Str +10, Dex +4, Int +2, Cha +2) is worth a +1 LA. A natural armor bonus under +10 (+7 in this case) is worth a +1 LA. A 10-foot reach is worth another +1 LA. The bonus to skill checks and bonus weapon proficiency could be worth a feat together, but Craft (stonemasonry) and Knowledge (architecture and engineering) are of little enough use that it's probably not worth it. You already have a fair +4 level adjustment; the +30 hp is just a very thick icing on the cake. Now the acid test. Take a 1st-level maug fighter vs a 7th-level human fighter, both with a +1 greatsword and +1 full plate, and both using the fighter's elite array given in the DMG, except the Maug can afford to put his 8 in Con, and thus improve his other scores. Hp Human: 57 Maug: 51 Winner: Human, but not my much AC Human: 20 Maug: 29 Winner: Maug, by a long shot Attack Human: +12/+7 (2d6+7) - (assuming Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization) OR +10/+5 (2d6+11) - (with -2 Power Attack penalty) Maug: +10 (3d6+13) - (without either feat) Winner: Maug. The human fighter gets two attacks, but will deal less damage, even with Power Attack. Furthermore, with a better speed and greater reach, the Maug threatens a much bigger area than the human. Saves Human: +7/+3/+3 Maug: +2/+2/+1 Winner: Human. Maug has slightly lower Will and Reflex saves. Fort is much lower, but as the Maug is immune to anything that doesn't also work on object, he's pretty safe on that side. Overall, both characters seem pretty much even, which is a good indications that the LA is about right. With a lower LA, I'd be comparing the Maug to a 6th-level fighter, The construct would then have more hp, and attack damage would be even more unbalanced in his favor.
terosthefrozen 12-24-06, 06:53 PM	first off, i want to thank you for the effort you put into that, it was more than necessary, but very useful. you are right, i will talk with my DM about the extra LA, because it does make sense. we are however running a higher-powered campaign than normal with mostly monster characters, so i might use +3 to be more balanced with the party. thanks again!
User5127 12-24-06, 07:11 PM	If you get into epic level play you can have a wizard use the fortify seed to actually give you a con score. and thus gain bonus HP from your HD... nothing about a construct or undead say they can't have a con score, just that they lack one. but the fortify seed specifically states that you can give some one a score even if the previously didn't have one. so chalk up a 20 con to your construct and enjoy all the immunities and improved fort save and extra HP now. just remember that on a technicallity when your con hits 0 you die. (how ever you are immune to ability damage/drain. so you should be good.)
GhostStepper 12-26-06, 12:45 AM	I was seriously considering playing a maug and decided against it because i felt the lack of a Con score was just too crippling. +30 hp is almost necessary to remain a decent melee'r at ECL 6 (your firsr character level) and its downright pitiful if your playing into higher levels. By the time your level 20, many melee characters easily have a Con of 20+ after items and have atleast 100 bonus hp. Many things with the same LA as a maug can have many more than that. The other thing that sucks is that once you hit 0 hp your destroyed outright. No negatives...no getting stablized...you just gone. There are some fixed though. As some have pointed out Improved Toughness can net you a few extra hp. If your willing to go psionic you could always dip psion for the psycrystal and use the Vigor, Share Pain combo to get some crazy extra HP. Id think going Psywar could be pretty good and then using expanded knowledge to pick up Share Pain. Psycrystal + Share Pain + Vigor and youve got a ton of staying power.
ArochanoX 12-26-06, 01:25 PM	Maug is a powerful opponent with it's current LA. Though +1 to the existing LA is overreacting. Maug loses it's power the higher the level is. The maug's +30 Hp can be though as +5 Con modifier at levels 0-6. Not so much. Even a dwarf with 18 to con can do that. Maug actually has very few hitpoints, but that is countered with the superhigh AC. The biggest problem of the maug is insane AC: +7 Natural, +3 racial Dex modifier, -1 size. That's 9 more than a similar human fighter. Don't be surprised if Maug hits AC 40 before level 10. Other problem is very low saves. Construct HD and +2 LA really hurts. Luckily maugs are constructs and thus immune to many spells and abilities. Take 1 level of monk or favored soul to counter that. Damage the maug does is good, but not extraordinary as Borris showed before. The best aspect of being a maug is the reach. Though you can get reach with half-ogre more easily. (+2 LA, no RHD, Races of Destiny) I think Maug is powerful for it's ECL but not overpowered.
terosthefrozen 12-26-06, 01:28 PM	im actually going full monk for my remaining levels, so i have good saves and great damage with a monk's belt.
User5127 12-26-06, 09:02 PM	don't forget, get a mage to epic you up some permanent fortified con score. then you are set with bonus HP.
Johny_Favourite 03-20-07, 05:50 PM	Always loved Maugs, the background is so great as well. Managed to play a straight laced Maug fighter for a Planescape game, with a party of conscrpts and mercs for the Blood War; fantastic fun.
Part-Human2 03-20-07, 06:40 PM	Temporary HPs such as from the spell False Life. Improved Toughness feat has been mentioned. There is a Trait from UA that grants the same bonus as Improved Toughness. Take a PrC that grants Fast Healing and or Damage Reduction. Maug's have SR also.
runestar 03-20-07, 09:53 PM	Maugs definitely make good fighters, despite their glaring lack of a con score and HD. The bonus hp helps at lower lvs, though it becomes pitifully little at higher lvs(though it always help). Still, with your higher than average AC and construct immunities, they should be able to offset your lower hp score. As mentioned earlier, try to rely on multiple sources of temp hp. A spell-storing weapon with vampiric touch is a great way of starting each battle. Aid is always nice. I have no idea how he is supposed to access false life. There may be other sources of temp hp (remember that temp hp from the same source do not stack, but temp hp from multiple different sources will stack), but I can't think of any at the moment.