CR+0 Templates? [Archive] - Wizards Community

CR+0 Templates? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ArchmageOmega
10-02-07, 01:18 PM I have two questions here. First, is there any precedent for templates that don't actually make the creature significantly stronger, as in a CR/LA+0 template? Second, whether or not such templates already exist, what would be some good guidelines for making such templates? So far I was thinking that such a template would have a +2 and a -2 to one or two stats, possibly a free +2/+2 skill feat/racial skill bonus, and maybe one low-power supernatural ability. Does that sound fair? These would most likely be limited to inherited templates BTW.
Banatine
10-02-07, 01:31 PM There is 'technically' a +0 LA template: The Dragonborn (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b&page=1).
ArchmageOmega
10-02-07, 03:00 PM What do you mean by 'technically'?
Zovc
10-02-07, 03:28 PM He means that you can use that as a basis for your LA+0 template.
HermitIX
10-02-07, 03:43 PM technically
adverb
According to the exact meaning; according to the facts; "technically, a bank's reserves belong to the stockholders"; "technically, the term is no longer used by experts"
JarionSilverblades
10-02-07, 03:56 PM The Amphibious creature template from Stormwrack is a +0 template.
StevenO
10-02-07, 04:46 PM Necropolitian from Libris Mortis is LA +0. Of course getting that template requires dying and the level loss that goes with it.
Mr_Teapot
10-02-07, 04:51 PM So far I was thinking that such a template would have a +2 and a -2 to one or two stats, possibly a free +2/+2 skill feat/racial skill bonus, and maybe one low-power supernatural ability. Does that sound fair? These would most likely be limited to inherited templates BTW.

A +0 template is not the same as a +0 race. That's because taking, say, human means you can't take dwarf as your race. If getting a free feat and skill rank per level were a template, it would need to be a +1 LA template (though it might be weak for that).

Giving a bonus to one stat and a penalty to another is already pretty powerful. You could easily make a character that doesn't need the stat you penalize and benefit from the higher stat they want. So they'd already be out ahead of the game. Giving free bonuses to skills and other abilities for no cost would be well outside of good balance. Basically, for the template to be a balanced +0 the character taking it would need to lose at least as much as they gain. If they're getting +2 to a skill, they probably need bigger or more important penalites to some other area.

You should look at how flaws in Unearthed Arcana (or the SRD) give bigger penalties than the corresponding feats. It's the same principle here.
ArchmageOmega
10-02-07, 05:48 PM A +0 template is not the same as a +0 race. That's because taking, say, human means you can't take dwarf as your race. If getting a free feat and skill rank per level were a template, it would need to be a +1 LA template (though it might be weak for that).

Giving a bonus to one stat and a penalty to another is already pretty powerful. You could easily make a character that doesn't need the stat you penalize and benefit from the higher stat they want. So they'd already be out ahead of the game. Giving free bonuses to skills and other abilities for no cost would be well outside of good balance. Basically, for the template to be a balanced +0 the character taking it would need to lose at least as much as they gain. If they're getting +2 to a skill, they probably need bigger or more important penalites to some other area.

You should look at how flaws in Unearthed Arcana (or the SRD) give bigger penalties than the corresponding feats. It's the same principle here.

Hmm... I suppose that's true. Any specific suggestions for what would make a good +0 template, or should I be sticking to +1 templates for the most part? I really want the characters and creatures this represents to be playable at level 1 though.

Edit: For comparison and discussion, here's an example template that one of my players is trying to use: the Fiend-Incarnate. The flavor of this is that the character is literally a fiend reborn into mortal form (in this case, an elf). They get +2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Cha, -2 Con. They also get Knowledge: Planes as a class skill, and get +2 racial bonus to Bluff and Knowledge: Planes. As a race, I doubt I'd give this anything other than LA+0, but what about as an inherited template?
Wih
10-02-07, 07:01 PM Primodial Giant from Secrets of Xendrik. It's a bit powerful, but it has it's downsides. Basically it makes a giant smart instead of strong.
Zaranthan
10-02-07, 07:28 PM As a race, I doubt I'd give this anything other than LA+0, but what about as an inherited template?

You answered your own question, there. As a race, those abilities take away the elf's weapon proficiencies, immunities, etc. As a template, it's a pathetic +1, simply because it can't be free. A +0 template should erase your racial features, much like the Dragonborn does.
ArchmageOmega
10-02-07, 08:09 PM As a template, it's a pathetic +1, simply because it can't be free. A +0 template should erase your racial features, much like the Dragonborn does.

Is this an actual rule or an opinion? I don't necessarily disagree, but I'd like to know.
runestar
10-02-07, 09:31 PM Fiendish and spellwarped template are cr+0 when applied to creatures with 3HD or less. Thus, there is precedent that if the bonuses granted are relatively minor, you can round down to cr+0 rather than a minimum of cr+1.:)
ArchmageOmega
10-03-07, 12:00 AM Would you consider the example above minor enough to warrant that?

Another way of putting this would be, would you consider this a LA+0 race:
+4 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, -4 Constitution, -2 Charisma
Medium
Speed is 30 feet.
Immunity to magic sleep effects, and a +2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells or effects.
Low-Light Vision
Weapon Proficiency: Receives the Martial Weapon Proficiency feats for the longsword, rapier, longbow (including composite longbow), and shortbow (including composite shortbow) as bonus feats.
+2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, Spot, Bluff and Knowledge: Planes checks.
Passing within 5 feet of a secret or concealed door grants a Search check to notice it as if actively looking for it.
Automatic Languages: Common, Elven
Bonus Languages: Draconic, Gnoll, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, Sylvan, Infernal, Abyssal
Favored Class: Wizard

That'd be the final result of a Fiend-Incarnate Elf, so far at least.

Edit: Oh yeah. There's the minor RP downside is that someone, or something, may recognize who they used to be. Also, there may be PrCs open only to Incarnates to represent them getting more in touch with their past life. Just thought I'd point that out.
runestar
10-03-07, 01:52 AM Generally, it is difficult for races granting extreme racial stat modifers to balance one another out effectively, because then it becomes easier to break 1 aspect. This is more problematic especially if the player finds some means of circumventing the drawbacks.

I would not allow your race as a LA+0, even if the stat modifiers balance each other out in theory.
ArchmageOmega
10-03-07, 02:15 AM Hmm... That's no good. :raincloud

I'm running out of ideas here. What are my options? I can make the templates LA+1. I can make them take away the original racial abilities. I can make them very weak. I really don't like any of those options, but if there's nothing else I can do... :help:
Mr_Teapot
10-03-07, 10:04 AM Hmm... That's no good. :raincloud

I'm running out of ideas here. What are my options? I can make the templates LA+1. I can make them take away the original racial abilities. I can make them very weak. I really don't like any of those options, but if there's nothing else I can do... :help:

You could increase the advantages the template gives you until it is a reasonable LA +1. Maybe add some spell resistance or elemental resistance or have it change your type to outsider (thus ignoring some spells and giving access to good alter self forms).

Or you could increase the drawbacks of the race and/or spread them out more. Give penalties to more stats and/or more skills. Have it lower the number of feats or HP that you take. Or, as suggested, have it replace the race's existing racial abilities. That's how Dragonborn work, and it helps balance them out.

As it stands, I would use that template to make a necropolitan fiend incarnate elf of some class that doesn't need charisma (rogue, warblade, swashbuckler or wizard, probably. In the last case, a necropolitan fiend incrante grey elf for +4 to Dex, +4 to Int and no penalties to stats I actually want or need.) That would avoid the problem of the big Con penalty by being undead.

The other option would be the reverse, and go fiend incarnate dwarf for a +2 to Dex, +2 to Int and a big penalty to Cha. But if I'm not playing a sorcerer, bard, paladin or maybe cleric, I don't mind the Cha penalty at all and really like the free Dex and Int.
runestar
10-03-07, 10:08 AM I would suggest ratcheting down the modifiers so they are less extreme. That way, that will be less room for abuse, since I share the earlier poster's sentiment that the only way I would play one would be if I was allowed to take the necropolitan template.

+2dex/+2int, -2con/-2cha and elven traits is a start, though this does make it a tad stronger than your typical elf, since +2int is not really balanced by -2cha. But then give it -2str and it becomes a carbon copy of the grey elf. I guess I would just allow it.

Doesn't really seem very fiendish, IMO...:P
Platstud
10-03-07, 12:11 PM Have it change the creature type to Outsider, that might help a bit.
Aminvelos
10-03-07, 12:39 PM -2 cha -2 con +2 int +2 dex, with elf traits is called a fire elf

and switching out the +2 to spot and listen for +2 in bluff and planes doesn't sound so bad. Just don't give him the +2 spot and listen.
Zaranthan
10-03-07, 03:34 PM Is this an actual rule or an opinion? I don't necessarily disagree, but I'd like to know.
See my (updated) sig.
gixanthrax
10-04-07, 08:04 AM Fiendish and spellwarped template are cr+0 when applied to creatures with 3HD or less. Thus, there is precedent that if the bonuses granted are relatively minor, you can round down to cr+0 rather than a minimum of cr+1.:)

man you are mixing CR with LA !

Spellwarped is a LA + 3
runestar
10-04-07, 09:45 AM man you are mixing CR with LA !

Spellwarped is a LA + 3

He was asking for cr+0 templates. I suppose I might have misinterpreted him, as he was apparently looking for cr+0 and LA+0 templates, not cr+0 or LA+0 templates.:embarrass
ArchmageOmega
10-04-07, 11:09 AM Actually, I was confusing the two, so I just wrote down both. Now that I know a bit better, I'm shooting for LA+0 templates.
demi d20
10-04-07, 02:07 PM Check out Dragon #306 for "Racial Variants".
Includes Aquatic, Night, Deep, Desert, Arctic, Wild & Magic-Bloooded templates. I love them, and all LA +0. Google will find you the stats.
RobbyPants
10-05-07, 12:20 PM This is still a work in progress, but I posted an unliving vampire template (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=930624), which I'm trying to make LA +0. It's not official (obviously), but I wanted to make a template that could be applied mid-game (say if a PC got bitten) without giving him 8 effective character levels!

The basic principle was to create an unlivng subtype of undead that got rid of most of the immunities. Upon acquiring the template, you pick up all the weaknesses and dependancies, but very few powers (such as you cannot control the spawn you create). I then made it into a 10-level monster class (11 counting the 0th level for merely acquiring the template) to grant powers through spent character levels. It's sort of a Savage Species-like progression.

So, use it if you'd like ;)
Darth Sephiroth
10-05-07, 02:05 PM Hmm... I suppose that's true. Any specific suggestions for what would make a good +0 template, or should I be sticking to +1 templates for the most part? I really want the characters and creatures this represents to be playable at level 1 though.

Edit: For comparison and discussion, here's an example template that one of my players is trying to use: the Fiend-Incarnate. The flavor of this is that the character is literally a fiend reborn into mortal form (in this case, an elf). They get +2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Cha, -2 Con. They also get Knowledge: Planes as a class skill, and get +2 racial bonus to Bluff and Knowledge: Planes. As a race, I doubt I'd give this anything other than LA+0, but what about as an inherited template?

You know, there is a LA +0 race that would work, namely the Lesser Tiefling (You could even have a variant of the Otherworldly feat and be basically a full tiefling)
INeedNoSalt
10-05-07, 02:50 PM I would suggest that, for a LA+0 template, your player should have to have more drawbacks than benefits, not the other way around. +2 Bluff and +2 Knowledge is equal to a feat by itself, for instance.
Platstud
10-05-07, 03:41 PM I would suggest that, for a LA+0 template, your player should have to have more drawbacks than benefits, not the other way around. +2 Bluff and +2 Knowledge is equal to a feat by itself, for instance.

Exactly. And the drawbacks should be fairly general. +2 Str and Dex, in exchange for -4 on Diplomacy, Decipher Script, Open Locks and Perform is exploitable in the extreme. +2 Str and Dex in exchange for -4 Listen and Spot and -10ft per round movement is a little more viable. Choose drawbacks that effect all classes and character builds(or at least most of the common ones).
Findail
10-05-07, 04:50 PM If you have a set of abilities that aren't good enough to justify a +1 LA, probably the simplest solution is to make them into a "heritage feat" that can only be taken at 1st level. This means they're not free: the player is giving up a feat slot (and a useful one at that: several feats can only be taken at 1st).

I did this with the Half-Skraal (in the archives here (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-343784), and the race is also on D&D Wiki here (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Skraal_%28DnD_Race%29)). The Skraal were LA 0, so I couldn't really have a halfbreed with a higher LA.
ArchmageOmega
10-05-07, 08:53 PM Ahh... A fourth option. Thanks. I think I like that option best so far. What precedents are there for heritage feats that change stats?
Necroramo
10-06-07, 11:50 PM The template has to give some drawbacks to make up for the advantages. For example the dungeonbred template makes the creature lose a size, but offsets it by giving it a bit more stealth and some ability changes to make the pain of shrinking slightly less prominent
and the bone creature template from BoVD is basically "make something undead"

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ArchmageOmega 10-02-07, 01:18 PM	I have two questions here. First, is there any precedent for templates that don't actually make the creature significantly stronger, as in a CR/LA+0 template? Second, whether or not such templates already exist, what would be some good guidelines for making such templates? So far I was thinking that such a template would have a +2 and a -2 to one or two stats, possibly a free +2/+2 skill feat/racial skill bonus, and maybe one low-power supernatural ability. Does that sound fair? These would most likely be limited to inherited templates BTW.
Banatine 10-02-07, 01:31 PM	There is 'technically' a +0 LA template: The Dragonborn (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b&page=1).
ArchmageOmega 10-02-07, 03:00 PM	What do you mean by 'technically'?
Zovc 10-02-07, 03:28 PM	He means that you can use that as a basis for your LA+0 template.
HermitIX 10-02-07, 03:43 PM	technically adverb According to the exact meaning; according to the facts; "technically, a bank's reserves belong to the stockholders"; "technically, the term is no longer used by experts"
JarionSilverblades 10-02-07, 03:56 PM	The Amphibious creature template from Stormwrack is a +0 template.
StevenO 10-02-07, 04:46 PM	Necropolitian from Libris Mortis is LA +0. Of course getting that template requires dying and the level loss that goes with it.
Mr_Teapot 10-02-07, 04:51 PM	So far I was thinking that such a template would have a +2 and a -2 to one or two stats, possibly a free +2/+2 skill feat/racial skill bonus, and maybe one low-power supernatural ability. Does that sound fair? These would most likely be limited to inherited templates BTW. A +0 template is not the same as a +0 race. That's because taking, say, human means you can't take dwarf as your race. If getting a free feat and skill rank per level were a template, it would need to be a +1 LA template (though it might be weak for that). Giving a bonus to one stat and a penalty to another is already pretty powerful. You could easily make a character that doesn't need the stat you penalize and benefit from the higher stat they want. So they'd already be out ahead of the game. Giving free bonuses to skills and other abilities for no cost would be well outside of good balance. Basically, for the template to be a balanced +0 the character taking it would need to lose at least as much as they gain. If they're getting +2 to a skill, they probably need bigger or more important penalites to some other area. You should look at how flaws in Unearthed Arcana (or the SRD) give bigger penalties than the corresponding feats. It's the same principle here.
ArchmageOmega 10-02-07, 05:48 PM	A +0 template is not the same as a +0 race. That's because taking, say, human means you can't take dwarf as your race. If getting a free feat and skill rank per level were a template, it would need to be a +1 LA template (though it might be weak for that). Giving a bonus to one stat and a penalty to another is already pretty powerful. You could easily make a character that doesn't need the stat you penalize and benefit from the higher stat they want. So they'd already be out ahead of the game. Giving free bonuses to skills and other abilities for no cost would be well outside of good balance. Basically, for the template to be a balanced +0 the character taking it would need to lose at least as much as they gain. If they're getting +2 to a skill, they probably need bigger or more important penalites to some other area. You should look at how flaws in Unearthed Arcana (or the SRD) give bigger penalties than the corresponding feats. It's the same principle here. Hmm... I suppose that's true. Any specific suggestions for what would make a good +0 template, or should I be sticking to +1 templates for the most part? I really want the characters and creatures this represents to be playable at level 1 though. Edit: For comparison and discussion, here's an example template that one of my players is trying to use: the Fiend-Incarnate. The flavor of this is that the character is literally a fiend reborn into mortal form (in this case, an elf). They get +2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Cha, -2 Con. They also get Knowledge: Planes as a class skill, and get +2 racial bonus to Bluff and Knowledge: Planes. As a race, I doubt I'd give this anything other than LA+0, but what about as an inherited template?
Wih 10-02-07, 07:01 PM	Primodial Giant from Secrets of Xendrik. It's a bit powerful, but it has it's downsides. Basically it makes a giant smart instead of strong.
Zaranthan 10-02-07, 07:28 PM	As a race, I doubt I'd give this anything other than LA+0, but what about as an inherited template? You answered your own question, there. As a race, those abilities take away the elf's weapon proficiencies, immunities, etc. As a template, it's a pathetic +1, simply because it can't be free. A +0 template should erase your racial features, much like the Dragonborn does.
ArchmageOmega 10-02-07, 08:09 PM	As a template, it's a pathetic +1, simply because it can't be free. A +0 template should erase your racial features, much like the Dragonborn does. Is this an actual rule or an opinion? I don't necessarily disagree, but I'd like to know.
runestar 10-02-07, 09:31 PM	Fiendish and spellwarped template are cr+0 when applied to creatures with 3HD or less. Thus, there is precedent that if the bonuses granted are relatively minor, you can round down to cr+0 rather than a minimum of cr+1.:)
ArchmageOmega 10-03-07, 12:00 AM	Would you consider the example above minor enough to warrant that? Another way of putting this would be, would you consider this a LA+0 race: +4 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, -4 Constitution, -2 Charisma Medium Speed is 30 feet. Immunity to magic sleep effects, and a +2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells or effects. Low-Light Vision Weapon Proficiency: Receives the Martial Weapon Proficiency feats for the longsword, rapier, longbow (including composite longbow), and shortbow (including composite shortbow) as bonus feats. +2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, Spot, Bluff and Knowledge: Planes checks. Passing within 5 feet of a secret or concealed door grants a Search check to notice it as if actively looking for it. Automatic Languages: Common, Elven Bonus Languages: Draconic, Gnoll, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, Sylvan, Infernal, Abyssal Favored Class: Wizard That'd be the final result of a Fiend-Incarnate Elf, so far at least. Edit: Oh yeah. There's the minor RP downside is that someone, or something, may recognize who they used to be. Also, there may be PrCs open only to Incarnates to represent them getting more in touch with their past life. Just thought I'd point that out.
runestar 10-03-07, 01:52 AM	Generally, it is difficult for races granting extreme racial stat modifers to balance one another out effectively, because then it becomes easier to break 1 aspect. This is more problematic especially if the player finds some means of circumventing the drawbacks. I would not allow your race as a LA+0, even if the stat modifiers balance each other out in theory.
ArchmageOmega 10-03-07, 02:15 AM	Hmm... That's no good. :raincloud I'm running out of ideas here. What are my options? I can make the templates LA+1. I can make them take away the original racial abilities. I can make them very weak. I really don't like any of those options, but if there's nothing else I can do... :help:
Mr_Teapot 10-03-07, 10:04 AM	Hmm... That's no good. :raincloud I'm running out of ideas here. What are my options? I can make the templates LA+1. I can make them take away the original racial abilities. I can make them very weak. I really don't like any of those options, but if there's nothing else I can do... :help: You could increase the advantages the template gives you until it is a reasonable LA +1. Maybe add some spell resistance or elemental resistance or have it change your type to outsider (thus ignoring some spells and giving access to good alter self forms). Or you could increase the drawbacks of the race and/or spread them out more. Give penalties to more stats and/or more skills. Have it lower the number of feats or HP that you take. Or, as suggested, have it replace the race's existing racial abilities. That's how Dragonborn work, and it helps balance them out. As it stands, I would use that template to make a necropolitan fiend incarnate elf of some class that doesn't need charisma (rogue, warblade, swashbuckler or wizard, probably. In the last case, a necropolitan fiend incrante grey elf for +4 to Dex, +4 to Int and no penalties to stats I actually want or need.) That would avoid the problem of the big Con penalty by being undead. The other option would be the reverse, and go fiend incarnate dwarf for a +2 to Dex, +2 to Int and a big penalty to Cha. But if I'm not playing a sorcerer, bard, paladin or maybe cleric, I don't mind the Cha penalty at all and really like the free Dex and Int.
runestar 10-03-07, 10:08 AM	I would suggest ratcheting down the modifiers so they are less extreme. That way, that will be less room for abuse, since I share the earlier poster's sentiment that the only way I would play one would be if I was allowed to take the necropolitan template. +2dex/+2int, -2con/-2cha and elven traits is a start, though this does make it a tad stronger than your typical elf, since +2int is not really balanced by -2cha. But then give it -2str and it becomes a carbon copy of the grey elf. I guess I would just allow it. Doesn't really seem very fiendish, IMO...:P
Platstud 10-03-07, 12:11 PM	Have it change the creature type to Outsider, that might help a bit.
Aminvelos 10-03-07, 12:39 PM	-2 cha -2 con +2 int +2 dex, with elf traits is called a fire elf and switching out the +2 to spot and listen for +2 in bluff and planes doesn't sound so bad. Just don't give him the +2 spot and listen.
Zaranthan 10-03-07, 03:34 PM	Is this an actual rule or an opinion? I don't necessarily disagree, but I'd like to know. See my (updated) sig.
gixanthrax 10-04-07, 08:04 AM	Fiendish and spellwarped template are cr+0 when applied to creatures with 3HD or less. Thus, there is precedent that if the bonuses granted are relatively minor, you can round down to cr+0 rather than a minimum of cr+1.:) man you are mixing CR with LA ! Spellwarped is a LA + 3
runestar 10-04-07, 09:45 AM	man you are mixing CR with LA ! Spellwarped is a LA + 3 He was asking for cr+0 templates. I suppose I might have misinterpreted him, as he was apparently looking for cr+0 and LA+0 templates, not cr+0 or LA+0 templates.:embarrass
ArchmageOmega 10-04-07, 11:09 AM	Actually, I was confusing the two, so I just wrote down both. Now that I know a bit better, I'm shooting for LA+0 templates.
demi d20 10-04-07, 02:07 PM	Check out Dragon #306 for "Racial Variants". Includes Aquatic, Night, Deep, Desert, Arctic, Wild & Magic-Bloooded templates. I love them, and all LA +0. Google will find you the stats.
RobbyPants 10-05-07, 12:20 PM	This is still a work in progress, but I posted an unliving vampire template (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=930624), which I'm trying to make LA +0. It's not official (obviously), but I wanted to make a template that could be applied mid-game (say if a PC got bitten) without giving him 8 effective character levels! The basic principle was to create an unlivng subtype of undead that got rid of most of the immunities. Upon acquiring the template, you pick up all the weaknesses and dependancies, but very few powers (such as you cannot control the spawn you create). I then made it into a 10-level monster class (11 counting the 0th level for merely acquiring the template) to grant powers through spent character levels. It's sort of a Savage Species-like progression. So, use it if you'd like ;)
Darth Sephiroth 10-05-07, 02:05 PM	Hmm... I suppose that's true. Any specific suggestions for what would make a good +0 template, or should I be sticking to +1 templates for the most part? I really want the characters and creatures this represents to be playable at level 1 though. Edit: For comparison and discussion, here's an example template that one of my players is trying to use: the Fiend-Incarnate. The flavor of this is that the character is literally a fiend reborn into mortal form (in this case, an elf). They get +2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Cha, -2 Con. They also get Knowledge: Planes as a class skill, and get +2 racial bonus to Bluff and Knowledge: Planes. As a race, I doubt I'd give this anything other than LA+0, but what about as an inherited template? You know, there is a LA +0 race that would work, namely the Lesser Tiefling (You could even have a variant of the Otherworldly feat and be basically a full tiefling)
INeedNoSalt 10-05-07, 02:50 PM	I would suggest that, for a LA+0 template, your player should have to have more drawbacks than benefits, not the other way around. +2 Bluff and +2 Knowledge is equal to a feat by itself, for instance.
Platstud 10-05-07, 03:41 PM	I would suggest that, for a LA+0 template, your player should have to have more drawbacks than benefits, not the other way around. +2 Bluff and +2 Knowledge is equal to a feat by itself, for instance. Exactly. And the drawbacks should be fairly general. +2 Str and Dex, in exchange for -4 on Diplomacy, Decipher Script, Open Locks and Perform is exploitable in the extreme. +2 Str and Dex in exchange for -4 Listen and Spot and -10ft per round movement is a little more viable. Choose drawbacks that effect all classes and character builds(or at least most of the common ones).
Findail 10-05-07, 04:50 PM	If you have a set of abilities that aren't good enough to justify a +1 LA, probably the simplest solution is to make them into a "heritage feat" that can only be taken at 1st level. This means they're not free: the player is giving up a feat slot (and a useful one at that: several feats can only be taken at 1st). I did this with the Half-Skraal (in the archives here (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-343784), and the race is also on D&D Wiki here (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Skraal_%28DnD_Race%29)). The Skraal were LA 0, so I couldn't really have a halfbreed with a higher LA.
ArchmageOmega 10-05-07, 08:53 PM	Ahh... A fourth option. Thanks. I think I like that option best so far. What precedents are there for heritage feats that change stats?
Necroramo 10-06-07, 11:50 PM	The template has to give some drawbacks to make up for the advantages. For example the dungeonbred template makes the creature lose a size, but offsets it by giving it a bit more stealth and some ability changes to make the pain of shrinking slightly less prominent and the bone creature template from BoVD is basically "make something undead"