CR, LA, and Racial HD: WTF?!! [Archive] - Wizards Community

CR, LA, and Racial HD: WTF?!! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Elessar Alpha
05-12-07, 06:22 PM Okay, this is just something that's been bugging me for a while:

Say you want to play a Minotaur character, starting him off as a level four fighter. Minotaurs have 6 racial hit dice, +2 level adjustment, and then four levels of fighter make the character ECL 12. A twelfth level character.

Meanwhile, the other members of the group just start out as characters with twelve levels of whatever class they want.

Now, an NPC is supposed to be a CR equal to its class level, so say the DM has you face a CR twelve: a Minotaur level 8 fighter.

Wait a minute: isn't that more powerful than the twelfth level character you're playing?

Yes, it is. But because a Minotaur is CR 4 while at the same time being ECL 8 (with no class levels whatsoever) playing one is completely counterintuitive, because you're constantly facing opponents more powerful than you, even though the rules say they shouldn't be.

I want to know why this is. Why are monsters not the same ECL as their CR like NPCs? Why, for templates like Monster of Legend (MMII) (LA +7; CR +3) aren't the CR and level adjustment modifiers the same?

Am I missing something? This just doesn't make any sense to me. It makes playing anything other than a race with zero level adjustment completely worthless.
Salla
05-12-07, 06:54 PM CR and ECL measure two different things; they are entirely unrelated. CR determines the approximate (I stress approximate) danger represented by a creature during one encounter. ECL represents the comparative power level that a player character brings to the game every day.

A creature, typically, gets to use its flashy abilities (whether they be spell-like or OMG T3H STR) three, maybe four times if it's lucky, before it dies (or retreats). A PC will get to strut his stuff repeatedly encounter after encounter after encounter, as PCs are generally expected to win fights.
Garonak
05-12-07, 07:02 PM And remember CR isn't for one on one combat. A Minotaur Fighter 8 is a suitable challenge for FOUR ecl 12 pcs.
Vharuck
05-12-07, 07:04 PM Fast healing 5 means that, in an encounter that lasts 15 rounds, you'll have to do an extra 75 damage to kill the creature.

Fast healing for a player means clerics are unnecessary.

This is to show how some abilities are nice for monsters, but broken for players.
allenchan
05-12-07, 07:08 PM The same goes for Spell-like abilities. The difference between 1/day (or 1/year to be extreme) and At will, are probably not going to be much different in an average encounter. For a PC which has many encounters every day, At will is far more valuable them, then to the npc that dies after 5 rounds of combat.
NineInchNall
05-12-07, 07:21 PM The answer is that when devising the LA system, the value of "all day" abilities was highly overvalued. It's the same reason the spellcasters are so much more powerful than the martial classes. The designers actually think that being able to bust out seven gates, shapechanges, dominate monsters, time stops, or what-have-you is a limitation. I know: it's crazy talk, but that's exactly how they thought and currently think.

How many times does your average Wizard, Cleric, or Druid go to bed having spent all of his spell slots? I don't think it's happened to my summoning focused Druid even once.

The fast healing thing is actually a great example of why this thinking fails, depending on the rate. Sure, having the fast healing 1 means that you don't sweat out of combat healing, but it doesn't make you better able to deal with challenges, which is the whole idea of leveling. When things are doing upwards of 50 damage per round, fast healing 5 is a drop in the pond. A level X character should be able to deal with CR X encounters with little real difficulty. However, let's give our hypothetical character an few abilities like fast healing that add some nice benefits without increasing the character's ability to actually overcome threats. Let's say this gives him a +4 LA.

Guess what. He's now an ECL X character with the ability to overcome CR X-4 challenges. The thing to remember is that this character is not suited to dealing with the direct threats represented by CR X creatures, characters, or whatever.

And remember CR isn't for one on one combat. A Minotaur Fighter 8 is a suitable challenge for FOUR ecl 12 pcs.

Just as a human Fighter 12 is a suitable challenge for four level 12 PCs. In other words, a human Fighter 12 brings the same amount of physical presence to a single combat as a minotaur Fighter 8 - not a minotaur Fighter 4.
catharz
05-12-07, 07:55 PM Am I missing something? This just doesn't make any sense to me. It makes playing anything other than a race with zero level adjustment completely worthless.

CR and LA measure two totally different things.

CR measures what is (usually) an appropriate challange for 4 characters of that level, taking up 1/4 of their resources. You can also look at it as an appropriate challange for a character of the same level, taking up 100% of its resources. A level 10 wizard is a CR 10 encounter.

LA is a measure of how much your character should suck because you wanted to play a nonstandard race. For example, tieflings should suck a little because they're almost human[oid]. Only LA+1. Minotaurs should suck more, because they're bigger and have bull's heads. LA+2. Doplegangers should really, really suck, because they're all shifty and villanous. LA+4.

There's a decent alternative in the link in my sig. Basically, it's usually safe to use CR+1, and change hit dice to = level. If you're dealing with particularly under-CRed creatures, you've got to up that a bit (CR +3 to +4).
Judging Eagle
05-12-07, 08:25 PM It still doesn't matter if you remove LA, lower stats and do all that you can to make a 'monster' playable.

They're really not easy to do.

So far the best method that I'd come up with is to remove almost all stat bonuses, reduce powers/natural armour/etc. and simply give stats that reflect the flavour of the race.

So, the 0HD gargoyle has +2 con, +2 nat armour, darkvision, scaling flight (glide down (featherfall + lateral movement) at lvl 1, flight at 5 HD (1 round per HD per hour); non-stop flight at 10 HD) natural weapons, but also has to contend with stuff like an armour-restriction (non-standard body shape) and, for giggles, their freeze ability give them fast healing (their HD) but makes them helpless (so they can't do it just anywhere).

None of which is more broken than most of the dwarf, elf, halfing or gnome core or MM subspecies if you think about it.
Heahengel
05-12-07, 09:57 PM NPCs are generally way easier opponents than monsters of the same CR anyway. The NPC has CR=class level thing is just meant to be an approximate fix for CRing them, since designers can't look at each of them individually the way they can for monster stats. In most cases a level 4 human fighter will get mauled by a CR 4 Minotaur.
itwasntme
05-12-07, 10:21 PM There are alot of negitive things about Racial HD and LA

you want your Racial HD and LA to be as low as possible escpouly if your going to play a spellcaster considering your so pose to be fighting monsters/characters that are X (X being Racial HD + LA) Above you in levels or some other format on thouse lines

so a wizard with an LA of +6 should be normoly a wizard thats 6 levels higher then he is

for example if your a Wizard with 6LA (lets not worrie about HD) You should normoly right now be a level 10 wizard ... sure the bonuses you get is nice but not being able to cast spells like a 10 level wizard is can be a MAJOR thorn in your side

however the point has been made a HD LA ECL CR all mean differnt things

I dount mean to pick on any Drow lovers out there but im going to give a slight example of the differnt abilitys you have open to you becouse of CR/HD

Drow get +2 dex +2int +2 Cha SR 11+Level DV 120 ft low light weapon pro and spell like abilitys
they have -2 con and a LA +2
so a drow wizard level 9 should be a level 11 Wizard level 9 wizards have 5th level spells and level 11 wizards have 6th level spells

so you have to ask if the +2 to your states SR and DV and eveything eles the drow gets is realy worth it

now another Creature that you can argue is better then drow are
-4 Str +2 dex +2 con +2 wisdom -4 Charisma DV 120 SR 11+Level
+1 To DC on Illusion spells +4 Dodge bonus agest ALL Creatures
Nondection
along with weapon pros spell like abilitys and some other abilitys (like Stonecunning bonus to skills like hide so on so forth)
LA +3

sure the hit on Str is not the worlds greatest but considering you automaticly get a +4 Dodge bonus agest all creatures is a Nice little bonus to your AC they have Nondection so you cant see or know there comeing after you and they have spell like abilitys (Along with others) You could say that out in the wilderness a Drow who is walking around trying to kill that creatures going to have a hard time (Non Dection is makeing it realy hard to see the creature) the LA+3 race sure isnt a great spellcaster but i think we can see how great a Rouge this class would be ... it would have an easy time to sneak up on the drow and use his SA agest him before the first round of combat have a surprize the creature can go invis with a potion and the drow now woundering WTF just happined

that creatures is the Svifneblin or a Deep Gnome

sure you can argue about the two but you have to take into account on what you argue about (If your argueing about how Gnomes wouldnt do something then take into account how your elf wouldnt be doing something eles)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Elessar Alpha 05-12-07, 06:22 PM	Okay, this is just something that's been bugging me for a while: Say you want to play a Minotaur character, starting him off as a level four fighter. Minotaurs have 6 racial hit dice, +2 level adjustment, and then four levels of fighter make the character ECL 12. A twelfth level character. Meanwhile, the other members of the group just start out as characters with twelve levels of whatever class they want. Now, an NPC is supposed to be a CR equal to its class level, so say the DM has you face a CR twelve: a Minotaur level 8 fighter. Wait a minute: isn't that more powerful than the twelfth level character you're playing? Yes, it is. But because a Minotaur is CR 4 while at the same time being ECL 8 (with no class levels whatsoever) playing one is completely counterintuitive, because you're constantly facing opponents more powerful than you, even though the rules say they shouldn't be. I want to know why this is. Why are monsters not the same ECL as their CR like NPCs? Why, for templates like Monster of Legend (MMII) (LA +7; CR +3) aren't the CR and level adjustment modifiers the same? Am I missing something? This just doesn't make any sense to me. It makes playing anything other than a race with zero level adjustment completely worthless.
Salla 05-12-07, 06:54 PM	CR and ECL measure two different things; they are entirely unrelated. CR determines the approximate (I stress approximate) danger represented by a creature during one encounter. ECL represents the comparative power level that a player character brings to the game every day. A creature, typically, gets to use its flashy abilities (whether they be spell-like or OMG T3H STR) three, maybe four times if it's lucky, before it dies (or retreats). A PC will get to strut his stuff repeatedly encounter after encounter after encounter, as PCs are generally expected to win fights.
Garonak 05-12-07, 07:02 PM	And remember CR isn't for one on one combat. A Minotaur Fighter 8 is a suitable challenge for FOUR ecl 12 pcs.
Vharuck 05-12-07, 07:04 PM	Fast healing 5 means that, in an encounter that lasts 15 rounds, you'll have to do an extra 75 damage to kill the creature. Fast healing for a player means clerics are unnecessary. This is to show how some abilities are nice for monsters, but broken for players.
allenchan 05-12-07, 07:08 PM	The same goes for Spell-like abilities. The difference between 1/day (or 1/year to be extreme) and At will, are probably not going to be much different in an average encounter. For a PC which has many encounters every day, At will is far more valuable them, then to the npc that dies after 5 rounds of combat.
NineInchNall 05-12-07, 07:21 PM	The answer is that when devising the LA system, the value of "all day" abilities was highly overvalued. It's the same reason the spellcasters are so much more powerful than the martial classes. The designers actually think that being able to bust out seven gates, shapechanges, dominate monsters, time stops, or what-have-you is a limitation. I know: it's crazy talk, but that's exactly how they thought and currently think. How many times does your average Wizard, Cleric, or Druid go to bed having spent all of his spell slots? I don't think it's happened to my summoning focused Druid even once. The fast healing thing is actually a great example of why this thinking fails, depending on the rate. Sure, having the fast healing 1 means that you don't sweat out of combat healing, but it doesn't make you better able to deal with challenges, which is the whole idea of leveling. When things are doing upwards of 50 damage per round, fast healing 5 is a drop in the pond. A level X character should be able to deal with CR X encounters with little real difficulty. However, let's give our hypothetical character an few abilities like fast healing that add some nice benefits without increasing the character's ability to actually overcome threats. Let's say this gives him a +4 LA. Guess what. He's now an ECL X character with the ability to overcome CR X-4 challenges. The thing to remember is that this character is not suited to dealing with the direct threats represented by CR X creatures, characters, or whatever. And remember CR isn't for one on one combat. A Minotaur Fighter 8 is a suitable challenge for FOUR ecl 12 pcs. Just as a human Fighter 12 is a suitable challenge for four level 12 PCs. In other words, a human Fighter 12 brings the same amount of physical presence to a single combat as a minotaur Fighter 8 - not a minotaur Fighter 4.
catharz 05-12-07, 07:55 PM	Am I missing something? This just doesn't make any sense to me. It makes playing anything other than a race with zero level adjustment completely worthless. CR and LA measure two totally different things. CR measures what is (usually) an appropriate challange for 4 characters of that level, taking up 1/4 of their resources. You can also look at it as an appropriate challange for a character of the same level, taking up 100% of its resources. A level 10 wizard is a CR 10 encounter. LA is a measure of how much your character should suck because you wanted to play a nonstandard race. For example, tieflings should suck a little because they're almost human[oid]. Only LA+1. Minotaurs should suck more, because they're bigger and have bull's heads. LA+2. Doplegangers should really, really suck, because they're all shifty and villanous. LA+4. There's a decent alternative in the link in my sig. Basically, it's usually safe to use CR+1, and change hit dice to = level. If you're dealing with particularly under-CRed creatures, you've got to up that a bit (CR +3 to +4).
Judging Eagle 05-12-07, 08:25 PM	It still doesn't matter if you remove LA, lower stats and do all that you can to make a 'monster' playable. They're really not easy to do. So far the best method that I'd come up with is to remove almost all stat bonuses, reduce powers/natural armour/etc. and simply give stats that reflect the flavour of the race. So, the 0HD gargoyle has +2 con, +2 nat armour, darkvision, scaling flight (glide down (featherfall + lateral movement) at lvl 1, flight at 5 HD (1 round per HD per hour); non-stop flight at 10 HD) natural weapons, but also has to contend with stuff like an armour-restriction (non-standard body shape) and, for giggles, their freeze ability give them fast healing (their HD) but makes them helpless (so they can't do it just anywhere). None of which is more broken than most of the dwarf, elf, halfing or gnome core or MM subspecies if you think about it.
Heahengel 05-12-07, 09:57 PM	NPCs are generally way easier opponents than monsters of the same CR anyway. The NPC has CR=class level thing is just meant to be an approximate fix for CRing them, since designers can't look at each of them individually the way they can for monster stats. In most cases a level 4 human fighter will get mauled by a CR 4 Minotaur.
itwasntme 05-12-07, 10:21 PM	There are alot of negitive things about Racial HD and LA you want your Racial HD and LA to be as low as possible escpouly if your going to play a spellcaster considering your so pose to be fighting monsters/characters that are X (X being Racial HD + LA) Above you in levels or some other format on thouse lines so a wizard with an LA of +6 should be normoly a wizard thats 6 levels higher then he is for example if your a Wizard with 6LA (lets not worrie about HD) You should normoly right now be a level 10 wizard ... sure the bonuses you get is nice but not being able to cast spells like a 10 level wizard is can be a MAJOR thorn in your side however the point has been made a HD LA ECL CR all mean differnt things I dount mean to pick on any Drow lovers out there but im going to give a slight example of the differnt abilitys you have open to you becouse of CR/HD Drow get +2 dex +2int +2 Cha SR 11+Level DV 120 ft low light weapon pro and spell like abilitys they have -2 con and a LA +2 so a drow wizard level 9 should be a level 11 Wizard level 9 wizards have 5th level spells and level 11 wizards have 6th level spells so you have to ask if the +2 to your states SR and DV and eveything eles the drow gets is realy worth it now another Creature that you can argue is better then drow are -4 Str +2 dex +2 con +2 wisdom -4 Charisma DV 120 SR 11+Level +1 To DC on Illusion spells +4 Dodge bonus agest ALL Creatures Nondection along with weapon pros spell like abilitys and some other abilitys (like Stonecunning bonus to skills like hide so on so forth) LA +3 sure the hit on Str is not the worlds greatest but considering you automaticly get a +4 Dodge bonus agest all creatures is a Nice little bonus to your AC they have Nondection so you cant see or know there comeing after you and they have spell like abilitys (Along with others) You could say that out in the wilderness a Drow who is walking around trying to kill that creatures going to have a hard time (Non Dection is makeing it realy hard to see the creature) the LA+3 race sure isnt a great spellcaster but i think we can see how great a Rouge this class would be ... it would have an easy time to sneak up on the drow and use his SA agest him before the first round of combat have a surprize the creature can go invis with a potion and the drow now woundering WTF just happined that creatures is the Svifneblin or a Deep Gnome sure you can argue about the two but you have to take into account on what you argue about (If your argueing about how Gnomes wouldnt do something then take into account how your elf wouldnt be doing something eles)