Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Essex 04-22-08, 01:22 PM	I've occasionally seen posts wherin sombody asks about making a PC with four (or more) arms because of how totally freaking cool it would be. Curious as to whether I could design such a race that lacks the need for a level adjustment, I came up with the following possible solution. Anybody up to providing some C&C? Type: Humanoid (Being a monstous humanoid, aberration, or native outsider would have made it immune to charm person while giving it Darkvision 60', which would have potentially helped increase the LA). Size: Small (The small size will result in smaller weapons, which will partially offset the benefit of an increased number of potential attacks). Speed: 20 feet (The slower speed will provide another negative to counter the benefit of multiple arms). Ability Score Adjustment: -2 Strength (Lower Strength will result in lower melee damage, which will partially offset the benefit of an increased number of potential attacks). Skill Bonus: +4 racial bonus to the Climb skill (Extra arms are useful for climbing. The bonus also offsets the Climb penalty from a lowered Strength score). SQ: +4 racial bonus to grapple checks (Extra arms are useful for grappling. The bonus offsets most of the penalty from your small size [you're still limited in how large a creature you can grapple]). Favored Class: Fighter ------------------------------------------------------- Does anybody think this is sufficient to be balanced? If not, what would you suggest be changed? Should the race have an ability score bonus in addition to the penalty? I didn't want to give a bonus to Dexterity in order to avoid the worst abuses of over the top thrown weapon or Weapon Finesse builds. Perhaps a boost to Constitution or an improved Wisdom explained as increased spatial awareness from having to coordinate extra limbs?
Carrion_Buffet 04-22-08, 01:27 PM	why not just start with a girallon and go from there. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/girallon.htm I would take the advancement away and add a level adjustment
Essex 04-22-08, 02:01 PM	why not just start with a girallon and go from there. Girallon's aren't meant to be PCs (especially with the IQ of 2). Besides which, they have 7 racial HD and would need a level adjustment. What I'm trying to do is create a race that has no racial HD or level adjustment and could thus be played at first level without any significant balance issues.
AtomicWarlock 04-22-08, 02:13 PM	It's difficult to balance that kind of thing; what you might think of doing is taking the mechanics of the Thri-Kreen(which is already LA+1) and taking away some of the extra stuff (huge bonus to jump checks, etc) and changing the flavor of it.
ChaosWolf1982 04-22-08, 02:22 PM	If you ask me, it looks like way too many penalties just for the sake of two more hands. Here's an idea. 1. Start with the concept of the Shokan race from Mortal Kombat. 2. Put them in D&D terms. 3. ???? 4. Profit. Sometimes, you simply can't avoid a bit of level adjustment without things seeming too... ineffective.
Essex 04-22-08, 02:29 PM	If you ask me, it looks like way too many penalties just for the sake of two more hands. It isn't just two more hands. Two extra hands means two extra weapons and (AT LEAST) two extra attacks. Each of those attacks can potentially involve power attack, sneak attack, or some similar damage boost. Also, what do you mean by "too many penalties"? They're small and have a -2 to Strength (I count the 20 foot movement as standard for being small). I don't see that as being a huge number of penalties to accept for two (or more) extra attacks.
Carrion_Buffet 04-22-08, 04:25 PM	Girallon's aren't meant to be PCs (especially with the IQ of 2). Besides which, they have 7 racial HD and would need a level adjustment. What I'm trying to do is create a race that has no racial HD or level adjustment and could thus be played at first level without any significant balance issues. I ws suggesting that it is a 4 armed race to start with. so start with the 7 hd and roll it back as a character of 7th level. -1 stat bonus. given this is a brute type race, thet stat would have been spent on str so remove it here. start (7hd) Str 22, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 7 end (1st hd) Str 21, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 7 now adjustments stats to reducing the racial size from large to small - I do not have the souce books with me so i will just use the reduce person spell as a reference and if you note the advancement for the creature; it is size large from 7 (its base hd) to 10 and then huge from 11 to 21. From how this reads I would guess a 6 hd or lower may be medium sized. Str 21, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 7 reduce person = -2 str,+2 dex, -1 size cat. 1/2 height width and length and 1/8 weight. Also a +1 to ac and attack so now we have .... Str 17, Dex 21, Con 14, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 7 next figure racial stat bonuses if it was like any other race str +6, dex +10, Con +4, Int -6, Wis +2, Cha -3 Now "buy off" the negative int stat to make it a base 10 or 11 stat (this is the standard array used for monsters) so you would need to "buy" 10 int points; cost 10 and the stat bonuses are str +6, dex +10, Con +4, Int +0, Wis +2, Cha -3 Now what is the point cost if you made a human with these bonus to stats? str 8 + 6 = 14 cost 6 dex 8 + 10 = 18 cost 16 con 8 + 4 = 14 cost 6 Int 8 + 0 = 8 cost is special here; pull the 10 spent above Wis 8 + 2 = 10 cost 2 Cha 8 - 3 = -5 cost -4 total is 6 + 16 + 6 + 10 + 2 -4 = 36 now you need to justify the point cost of 36. I'm use to playing with a 32 point game, so 4 points would need to be made up. for example reduce the dex by 2 and add 1 to the cha final stats str 14, dex 16, Con 12, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 8 these stats are not out of the reach of many a 1st level characters and will make a nice dex build. You can also look at this as a "racial array" 16,14,12,10,8,8 now you need to look at some of the feats available to the source creature and justify them. Darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, scent all in all not that bad, but none of the base races have all three; this may add a +1 LA. I would suggest dropping one or two and lose the +1 LA. now the real issue I take with the girrallon is he has 5 attacks plus rend! 4 arms +1 bite. The rend depends on 2 or more claw attacks succeding. This can be gross, specially if the play goes with an unarmed monk build....yuk! I would drop or apply a +1 LA Iron Will and Toughness(2) are also included. But remember this listing is for a 7 HD creature which would have 3 feats if we were speaking about a 7th level character (feats from levels 1,3 and 6) so ignore them this is a 1st level character now. no feats have been selected. The climb move and +8 bonus is due to a climb special ability. I would cut this in half to a +4 with no climb move or remove it all together. Your race is not the primative ape anymore, it has learn to live in cities with ladders, stairs and ramps. The need to climb is not as important as it once was. And now I have only one more issue with the girallon modified to a four armed player race. a monster feat maybe needed for the player called multiattack. The four claw attacks are basically natural attacks, it could be agrued that even a monk's unarmed attacks may need this feat in order for the players character to be able to use weapons, or weapons and shields. well this is it, but I think it show how I would handle your four armed race issue.
QuiZZer 04-23-08, 06:29 AM	Carrion_Buffet... that is one of the oddest things I have seen for reducing a monster to a playable race... Now as for the original little beastie by Essex I rather like it, though I agree that it could use a small boost to a stat. Wisdom or Constitution wouldn't be bad. Perhaps it would be more fun to give them a bonus to Spot and Listen bonuses? Do you have any kind of background written for the little ones? =)
Captain_Kobold 04-23-08, 10:38 AM	The problem with balancing races with more than two arms, (assuming that they are using Multiattack) is that its not brute fighters that make them unbalanced. Its rogue-types using their extra arms to deal extra sneak attacks. Size and strength penalties are almost irrelevent since they will often have weapon finesse, and the majority of their damage comes from the SA dice, which are not penalised by strength or size. The small size is actually an advantage since it gives bonuses to AC, hit, and Hide checks. To get an LA +0 race, you need to prevent that sort of character from having a large advantage over similar characters of other races.
Carrion_Buffet 04-23-08, 11:33 AM	QuiZZer...Yes it is odd but how would you do it....and make it balanced? I did that as an example, on what I might do to make it as balanced as possible. Even at the end of it, I have issues with the four arms. regardless, I would have to think long and hard if I would let a 4 armed race in a campaign. As pointed out by Captain_Kolbold a rogue with four arms and multi-attack could really dish out some damage when it lands sneak attacks. Also a fighter type would still be better than a medium "normal" fighter as he could dual weild medium weapons and gain the 1.5 strength bonus to damage. A monk build with an extra 2 attack with unarmed attack or even kamas makes for a moving shredder. And this is not getting into prestege classes. There are also times that a player may be able to do things other players simply could not...climb a wall and caste spells for example or even caste a spell and defend with a tower shield? This race brings up all sorts of issues with various builds and I would really have a hard time not giving it a LA without some serious negatives.
Master_Vega 04-23-08, 11:38 AM	D20 Future has a mutations system that is decently balanced. It lets you take drawbacks (ability burn [-2 to any ability score], ultraviolet allergy [2d6 damage per round while exposed to direct sunlight], thin skin [+1 damage taken every time you are hit], etc..) for points to buy benefits (Darkvision, claws, fangs, wings, and even an extra pair of arms). The system can be found under the "Mutations" link on this page. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/msrd) Not all of the mutations/drawbacks are balanced with D&D, but I've made several races that seem pretty well balanced using it. I don't think Thin Skin is worth 5 mutation points (1 point short of what it takes to buy a second pair of arms) in D&D, since what makes it nasty is that D20Modern/Future have much harsher massive damage rules. When your constitution is your massive damage threshold, an extra 1 point of damage could verywell mean the difference between life and death. In D&D, not so much. Hope that helps!
Essex 04-23-08, 12:27 PM	Now as for the original little beastie by Essex I rather like it, though I agree that it could use a small boost to a stat. Wisdom or Constitution wouldn't be bad. Perhaps it would be more fun to give them a bonus to Spot and Listen bonuses? I'm always wary of giving racial bonuses to Spot/Listen. Players can combine it with the Alertness feat and a high Wisdom score to make characters that are almost impossible to surprise by anything with an appropriate CR. I'd either grant Alertness as a racial bonus feat or go with the Wisdom boost. A Wisdom increase may be a better choice here, as a boost to Constitution may encourage characters to stay in melee and suck the damage while doing a cuisinart impression. Do you have any kind of background written for the little ones? =) Not really. I've always though that the greatest background in the world means nothing if the rules suck. The second edition Dragonlance setting had some incredible ideas, but all of the races were horribly balanced. All I've decided is that the race probably lives in an area with mountains, chasms, or jungles (or perhaps on a primordial island with all three).
ChaosWolf1982 04-23-08, 10:02 PM	So much for a faint hope I could find a way to have a stat-block for Sheeva, if apparently the best we can do is a short, weak, slow thing, or a variant gorilla-thing that takes high algebra to explain...
Carrion_Buffet 04-24-08, 02:49 PM	So much for a faint hope I could find a way to have a stat-block for Sheeva... or a variant gorilla-thing that takes high algebra to explain... lol...You can have what ever you want, but from a campaign point of view I would make you give up something for the extra arms. And I see the extra arms as extra attacks over your level. If you do not want to give up a hefty stat negative or otherwise nerf the race. I can think of one work around....racial levels. Make the player advance as a monsterous humanoid (or whatever would be best for the races design) for a few levels before they can pick a class level. Let them have a limit skill selection. allow multiattack as a racial feat during racial levels only. If you look at other monsterous humanoid races you may get a feel for what maybe a good number. Centaur 4hd / +2 la Doppelganger 4hd / +4 la Medusa 6hd (not meant for PC, but they advance by class) Minotaur 6hd / +2 la Ogre 4hd / +2 la Sahuagin 2hd / +2 la (or +3 if four armed......) Just saw this, looks like WotC has placed a +1 LA on extra arms...I would have placed a +2 on it. Judging from the Sahuagin I would most likely have 2 racial levels If you base the race on a human with 2 extra arms and then allow you to class level from 3 on, without a level adjustment.
jradd777 04-24-08, 06:03 PM	I once created a race like this... I made the extra two arms more like... vestigial appendages that weren't good for much. They weren't strong enough to hold extra weapons alone (although they could carry extra items of minimal weight)... although I considered giving slight inherent bonuses to attack and/or damage based on their ability to stabilize the larger arms. And I also gave them the bonus to grapple considering the same thing, the ability to use the arms for help even if they aren't strong. I'll dig mine up and repost if I have time.
Katherose 04-24-08, 07:15 PM	Question. How would attacking with four arms relate to things like Two Weapon Fighting. Wouldn't there be massive penalties for attacking with all four arms? Or would it be more two main hands two off hands, one from each set? (just wondering.)
Carrion_Buffet 04-24-08, 07:22 PM	there are two feats ( I forgot about the second) that come into play with multiple arms...source d20srd monster feats Multiattack [General] Prerequisite Three or more natural attacks. Benefit The creature’s secondary attacks with natural weapons take only a -2 penalty. Normal Without this feat, the creature’s secondary attacks with natural weapons take a -5 penalty. Multiweapon Fighting [General] Prerequisites Dex 13, three or more hands. Benefit Penalties for fighting with multiple weapons are reduced by 2 with the primary hand and reduced by 6 with off hands. Normal A creature without this feat takes a -6 penalty on attacks made with its primary hand and a -10 penalty on attacks made with its off hands. (It has one primary hand, and all the others are off hands.) See Two-Weapon Fighting. Special This feat replaces the Two-Weapon Fighting feat for creatures with more than two arms.
Drasche 04-25-08, 02:00 AM	Question. How would attacking with four arms relate to things like Two Weapon Fighting. Wouldn't there be massive penalties for attacking with all four arms? Or would it be more two main hands two off hands, one from each set? (just wondering.) I think that it depends on the creature. If it is intelligent enough (and not just a dumb beast), I would suppose it would be like a human, using one particular hand - or perhaps side of hands, but I can't but guess at that - more often than the other(s). For combat purposes, assuming each hand wields a weapon, I would make it look like: Base Attack: Dominant hand: -6 penalty Off-hand/Dominant side: -10 penalty Opposite hands: -10 penalty Off-hand Weapons are Light: Dominant hand: -4 penalty Off-hand/Dominant side: -8 penalty Opposite hands: -8 penalty MultiWeapon Fighting and Off-hand Weapons are Light: Dominant hand: 0 adjustment Off hand/Dominant side: -2 penalty Opposite hands: -2 penalty
Mesinock 04-26-08, 12:13 PM	One of the bigest issues is a - to str on a 4 armed creature, 2 more arms 2 more sets of muscles, 2 more supports for the distribution of weight. They are just going to be stronger than other creatures of thier size category. The same argument could be made for dex, but it would be a little tougher. All that said I would make it a medium size creature +2 str, -2 dex, maybe even -2 cha as well. Givea climb and graple bonus of +2 rather than +4. As far as handling the attacks, restrict the creature a main hand and run all the attacks by the two weapon fighting rule and consider the other 3 arms as off-hand attacks. Another possible restriction would be to dictate that this creature has a racial multiple attack progression rather the attack progression for its class, or regulate the extra set of hands to non-combat only.
Essex 04-26-08, 05:07 PM	One of the bigest issues is a - to str on a 4 armed creature, 2 more arms 2 more sets of muscles, 2 more supports for the distribution of weight. They are just going to be stronger than other creatures of thier size category. Not necessarily, you could argue the exact opposite. You could assert that, since extra arms divide the work that each individual arm does, each arm would be weaker than normal. Furthermore, Strength is a combination of brute force and carrying capacity. Extra arms don't mean that you can carry more, it is your legs that determine that. At best, you could argue (as I have) that extra arms allow you to grapple things more effectively. Thus, if you've got a struggling opponent that you need to move, your grapple check can be used to pin and drag him, but it is still the strength of your legs that determines if you can actually bear his weight. All that said I would make it a medium size creature +2 str, -2 dex, maybe even -2 cha as well. So, your solution to the problem of making a four armed race without a level adjustment is to make it medium, boost the strength, and penalize a dump stat? If I were in a game and my DM were dumb enough to do that, I'd probably take a single level of Fighter so I can take Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword) and Multi-Weapon Fighting, then start quad-wielding the things for absurd first level damage. Givea climb and graple bonus of +2 rather than +4. So, your four armed race is no inherently better at Climbing than a two armed halfling of comparable strength? As far as handling the attacks, restrict the creature a main hand and run all the attacks by the two weapon fighting rule and consider the other 3 arms as off-hand attacks. Another possible restriction would be to dictate that this creature has a racial multiple attack progression rather the attack progression for its class, or regulate the extra set of hands to non-combat only. Huh? If I understand correctly, you solution to the problem is to make up some obscure specialized system that takes away some of the actual benefits of having extra hands instead of using the existing rules for fighting with extra limbs?
ChaosWolf1982 05-05-08, 03:36 PM	lol...You can have what ever you want, but from a campaign point of view I would make you give up something for the extra arms. And I see the extra arms as extra attacks over your level. If you do not want to give up a hefty stat negative or otherwise nerf the race. I can think of one work around....racial levels. Make the player advance as a monsterous humanoid (or whatever would be best for the races design) for a few levels before they can pick a class level. Let them have a limit skill selection. allow multiattack as a racial feat during racial levels only. If you look at other monsterous humanoid races you may get a feel for what maybe a good number. Centaur 4hd / +2 la Doppelganger 4hd / +4 la Medusa 6hd (not meant for PC, but they advance by class) Minotaur 6hd / +2 la Ogre 4hd / +2 la Sahuagin 2hd / +2 la (or +3 if four armed......) Just saw this, looks like WotC has placed a +1 LA on extra arms...I would have placed a +2 on it. Judging from the Sahuagin I would most likely have 2 racial levels If you base the race on a human with 2 extra arms and then allow you to class level from 3 on, without a level adjustment. ...that might work. Thanks!
nighttree 05-05-08, 11:27 PM	"Obah blessed template" is my favorite way of doing mult-armed characters :D
ChaosWolf1982 05-06-08, 01:56 AM	"Obah blessed template" is my favorite way of doing mult-armed characters :D I'm not familiar with that one. what's it from?
Rahvan 05-06-08, 08:32 AM	I'm not familiar with that one. what's it from? I'd say dungeon magazine, issue #136, though I might be wrong here and have it mixed up with something else.