Post/Author/DateTime	Post
NetGod 04-04-08, 01:13 PM	My goal: To create a very strong, playable PC psi race with an ECL of 0 to 1. Is this too-too powerful or 'over the top' ? Racial Traits +2 Intelligence (-2 to strength) Size: Medium Base land speed: 30' +4 Power Points +4 to Armor Class (When using non-metalic armor, sudded leather is ok) Favored class: Any Psionic (No experience point penalty for multiclassed psionic classses) Thanks
ArochanoX 04-04-08, 03:39 PM	Short answer: Yes. Long answer: Yes, because 1) +2 Intelligence is nowhere near balanced with a -2 Str. Think of a psion. Who needs strenght if one has spells? Dexterity or favorably Constitution penalty are the only (to my thinking) ability scores that can counter a +2 to a mental stat. 2) +4 power points. Well it's not overpowering after lvl 3, but it sure is a bunch of power points at level 1. Make it like +1pp/level. 3) +4 AC. No. No. No. And again no. It's something like inertial armor (or mage armor) always active without the need to spend power points for it. It's too much. Even though ring of continuous mage armor would cost 2000 gp, it should cost atleast 16 000 gp. Even a +1 natural armor is considered heavy boon, but +4 bonus that stacks with some armor, natural armor and deflection bonus is just insane. For LA +0 atleast. Better would be: when the race has atleast 1 power point and is psionically focused, and when he wears no armor or shields and is unencumbered he may add his wisdom bonus to AC as a deflection (or insight) modifier. This ability doesn't stack with Ninja's, Monk's or Warblade's armor bonus. So: Random Psionic Race: Medium Humanoid (psionic) +2 Int, -2 Con Base Land Speed 30 ft This race gains one extra power point for each level it has. He gains Wis to AC when unencumbered, unarmored, not wearing a shield and psionically focused. Doesn't stack with Monk's, Ninja's or Warblade's armor bonus. Automatic Languages: Common and Random Psionic Language Bonus Languages: Any (because I'm lazy right now) Favored Class: Psion (Erudite) LA 0
NetGod 04-04-08, 03:59 PM	Short answer: Yes. So: Random Psionic Race: Medium Humanoid (psionic) +2 Int, -2 Con Base Land Speed 30 ft This race gains one extra power point for each level it has. He gains Wis to AC when unencumbered, unarmored, not wearing a shield and psionically focused. Doesn't stack with Monk's, Ninja's or Warblade's armor bonus. Automatic Languages: Common and Random Psionic Language Bonus Languages: Any (because I'm lazy right now) Favored Class: Psion (Erudite) LA 0 Wow! That seems really under-powered. A Gnome seems to be a lot more powerful than that. how about this: +2 Intelligence -1 Constitution -1 Strength Speed: 30 3 Power points (Half the purpose of this race is to give him an psionic edge when starting) +2 to AC, then incrimental AC impovements of +1 at levels 3 and 5.
wraithstrike 04-04-08, 07:31 PM	Wow! That seems really under-powered. A Gnome seems to be a lot more powerful than that. how about this: +2 Intelligence -1 Constitution -1 Strength Speed: 30 3 Power points (Half the purpose of this race is to give him an psionic edge when starting) +2 to AC, then incrimental AC impovements of +1 at levels 3 and 5. When you apply a negative to a score it should be a negative to the modifier or you aren't really losing anything. If you look at any races/templates they always lose the stats in even increments so it equals modifiers. If you are trying to get an edge at first level so you won't die then don't play at first level. The reason I don't play at first level is because I think it is more dangerous than playing over 20th level. Giving the 4 pp is to much for first level, but the level adjustment becomes useless after a while.
ArochanoX 04-05-08, 04:20 AM	Gnome is a very poor comparsion point for a race like this because they have significantly different abilities. Elan (maybe the most powerful psionic race), and other races from the XPH are better comparsion points. Maybe the best psionic race by mechanics is Kalashtar (Eberron Campaing Setting pg 17-18). By best I don't mean most powerful. Shortly Kalashtar are humans that are psionic. They gain 1 power point per character level (basically one extra power of highest level), +2 bonuses on social skills, bonus on special saves and a mindlink power usable 1/day. +2 Int countered by -2 Con gives lots of space to maneuver. Wisdom to AC seems reasonable to me, even though no race has it. (It is often given at class level 1 so it can't be too powerful. Wis to AC (monk's belt) costs 30 000 gp, but grant numerous other abilities too. In many cases it enforces MAD.) To make this class juicier, give it skill bonuses and maybe a save bonus against some sort of spells and effects. Like +2 bonus on will saves against compulsions. You haven't given us any information about the race itself or the consept of this race. We can just tell if the mechanics you've posted are flawed (which they are). We really can't offer you any improvements because we don't know what do you want.
wraithstrike 04-05-08, 07:18 AM	3 Power points (Half the purpose of this race is to give him an psionic edge when starting) He seems to want something that is overpowered at first level, but not still on par with an ecl 0 race at later levels so he can justify it having no LA.
AtsuiShoto 04-05-08, 07:40 AM	Well, the 3 power points isn't automatically an unbalanced feature. I think 1 PP per HD is a more stable mechanic, but 3 at 1st level simply needs to be balanced by a weakness that becomes irrelevant at higher levels.
M-bark 04-05-08, 08:23 AM	1) +2 Intelligence is nowhere near balanced with a -2 Str. Think of a psion. Who needs strenght if one has spells? Dexterity or favorably Constitution penalty are the only (to my thinking) ability scores that can counter a +2 to a mental stat. Gray Elves disagree. So does the DMG, which says that a +2 in Str is balanced out by a -2 to TWO mental stats. So a +2 in a mental stat, to my reasoning, would be balanced quite easily with a -2 to Str. However, I agree that 3 or 4 PP extra at first level is much, as is the AC bonus. By the by, that AC bonus hardly makes sense. +4 to AC, but only when not wearing metal armour? Huh? Why is that? And what kind of bonus does that +4 come from? Untyped, natural armour, dodge?
ArochanoX 04-05-08, 09:27 AM	Gray Elves disagree. So does the DMG, which says that a +2 in Str is balanced out by a -2 to TWO mental stats. So a +2 in a mental stat, to my reasoning, would be balanced quite easily with a -2 to Str. Gray elves do have a constitution penalty (even though all the elves have it). After that there are no LA0 races that had +2 Int. All the ability scores are not equal (some of this is because the classes need so specific ability scores, and some of this is because players want to optimize their characters). For example a +2 Dexterity could be balanced with a -2 Strenght (bonus on ranged offence and AC, penalty on melee offence and carrying capacity). Plain and simple. But Bonus on, say, intelligence. Those who play a race that has an intelligence bonus usually get most out of it when they're wizards (or psions, archivists etc). What does a wizard care about strength? It doesn't grant him anything. Carrying capacity can be neglected with bags of holding (where weapons and armor are the most heavy items of all), and wizard usually doesn't get into melee. What does a wizard care about dexterity? It does grant him armor class, initiative and bonus on ranged attacks. It's quite good for a wizard. Typically second or third highest ability score for a wizard. What does a wizard care about constitution? It grants him hit points and bonus on a save. It's like dexterity: it's quite good for a wizard. Typically second or third highest ability score for a wizard. Then there are wisdom and charisma. Wizard (as a class) doesn't need those at all. He has a good will save, so good wisdom isn't required. Wizard hasn't social skills so he doesn't need charisma. They are the dump stats for a wizard. So now then. If a player who plans what race to play. He plans to play a wizard (or a psion or archivist etc), so what would he choose from following: +2 Int, -2 Str, some skill bonuses and special abilities. +2 Int, -2 Dex, the same bonuses and abilities as +2 Int, -2 Str version. +2 Int, -2 Con, the same bonuses and abilities as +2 Int, -2 Str version. +2 Int, -2 Wis, the same bonuses and abilities as +2 Int, -2 Str version. +2 Int, -2 Cha, the same bonuses and abilities as +2 Int, -2 Str version. Me. I would choose +2 Int, -2 Cha. But what is the worst (and the second worse) choice? I would choose +2 Int, -2 Con the worst and +2 Int, -2 Dex the second worst race. Now think. Is the +2 Int really countered with -2 Str? Does the wizard lose as much as he has gained?
M-bark 04-05-08, 11:34 AM	Now think. Is the +2 Int really countered with -2 Str? Does the wizard lose as much as he has gained? Oh, I'm not disagreeing with you on the point that wizards gain a lot by trading 2 Str for 2 Int. However, I was looking at the whole of the classes, not merely classes that benefit greatly from having a high Int score and don't care much for Str.
AtsuiShoto 04-05-08, 02:27 PM	However, I was looking at the whole of the classes, not merely classes that benefit greatly from having a high Int score and don't care much for Str.That is, unfortunately, a common mistake. Mongrelfolk would make very poor bards, sorcerers, or marshals, but nobody who has looked into the race denies that they are good rogues and good melee-types, making them overall a strong race. The strengths of a race define its power level. The weaknesses only define its versatility.
wraithstrike 04-05-08, 06:56 PM	Well, the 3 power points isn't automatically an unbalanced feature. I think 1 PP per HD is a more stable mechanic, but 3 at 1st level simply needs to be balanced by a weakness that becomes irrelevant at higher levels. Actually the 3 PP needs to be countered by something that effects a 1st level character to be balanced. It does not matter if 3pp is countered at higher levels because by then it is already a nonfactor. I don't three pp is unbalanced over all, but it is at first level. It is like giving a first level caster 3 more first level spell which is huge at first level, but at higher levels it is almost a mute point, since most casters don't use first level spells, unless in dire straits, and in that case the dice will probably have more of an affect than what a first level spell would.
Lotus Crane 04-05-08, 08:20 PM	My goal: To create a very strong... race with an ECL of 0 to 1. That's the first clue that you're approaching this with the wrong mindset. Do you actually want a race that's balanced against the other races in the PHB and XPH, or are you trying to "convince" (by which I mean fool/trick/cheat) your DM into letting you get away with playing something significantly better than anything published? Don't make a race that's as strong or stronger than most LA +1 races, then try to convince us that it's okay at LA 0 with begging, strawmen arguments, or distorted comparisons. +2 Intelligence (-2 to strength) Size: Medium Base land speed: 30' +4 Power Points +4 to Armor Class (When using non-metalic armor, sudded leather is ok). Let's start with the ability score adjustment. Generally speaking, LA 0 races have either a negative total ability score adjustment (half-orcs, kobolds), or a net-zero ability score adjustment that doesn't necessarily skew the class towards being too good or bad at specific roles. While it's true that grey elves break the normal rule, they have -2 Con, which hurts casters a lot more than -2 Str normally will. They're also a race that DM's will commonly not allow into their games. Size and speed seem normal enough, so we'll skip ahead to the primary racial traits. 4 power points at LA 0/ECL 1 is unprecedented. All the LA 0 psionic races in the XPH have 1-2 points; only the duergar (LA +1) and githyanki (LA +2) have 3 points. Depending on starting ability scores and class, you'll be able to manifest 2-3 times as many powers as other 1st level psionic characters, which is ridiculous. +4 AC unnamed/untyped AC, that stacks with armor, is even more broken. This isn't just too good for psionic characters; anybody who wants to play an arcanist, druid, monk, rogue, etc. would stupid to not want such an obvious advantage. You'd have tons of 1st level characters running around with AC 22+. So no, absolute not. What I can deduce from your poorly thought out attempt, is that you want a race with as much "passive buff" as possible, which is a little unusual for a psionic race - most of the published psionic races have "activated abilities" that you have to learn to manage. So alright, let's try to stick as closely to your idea, in two model, LA 0 and LA +1. PSINILLA (VANILLA PSIONIC RACE) • +2 Intelligence, –2 Constitution. Psinillas are contemplative beings, which makes them insightful but sedentary. • Medium: As Medium creatures, psinillas have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. • Psinilla base land speed is 30 feet. • Naturally Psionic: Psinillas gain 2 bonus power points at 1st level. This benefit does not grant them the ability to manifest powers unless they gain that ability through another source, such as levels in a psionic class. For every 5 Hit Dice a psinilla has, he gains 1 additional bonus power point. • Inertial Dampening (Su): Psinillas constantly radiate a faint psionic aura which helps protect them from harm. They have a +1 bonus to AC, which stacks with all other types of bonuses to AC. This bonus to AC applies even against touch attacks or when a psinilla is flat-footed. For every 10 Hit Dice a psinilla has, this AC bonus increase by 1. However, ferrous and other hard metals, such as steel, adamantine, mithral, and cold iron, disrupt this aura. Psinillas lose their bonus to AC when wearing metal armor or using metal shields. • Favored Class: Psion. • Level Adjustment: 0. TRUE PSINILLA (FRENCH VANILLA PSIONIC RACE) • +2 Intelligence. True psinillas are contemplative and insightful beings. • Medium: As Medium creatures, true psinillas have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. • True psinilla base land speed is 30 feet. • Naturally Psionic: True psinillas gain 4 bonus power points at 1st level. This benefit does not grant them the ability to manifest powers unless they gain that ability through another source, such as levels in a psionic class. For every 4 Hit Dice a true psinilla has, he gains 1 additional bonus power point. • Inertial Dampening (Su): True psinillas constantly radiate a faint psionic aura which helps protect them from harm. They have a +2 bonus to AC, which stacks with all other types of bonuses to AC. This bonus to AC applies even against touch attacks or when a true psinilla is flat-footed. For every 8 Hit Dice a true psinilla has, this AC bonus increase by 1. However, ferrous and other hard metals, such as steel, adamantine, mithral, and cold iron, disrupt this aura. True psinillas lose their bonus to AC when wearing metal armor or using metal shields. • Favored Class: Any psionic class. • Level Adjustment: +1. You'll notice that in both cases, I borrowed the "scaling benefits" model from the raptoran (Races of the Wild) and half-celestial template (MM I). This allows abilities that would be too powerful at 1st level to still belong to a LA 0 race (you just don't develop them until later on), or viewed the other way, it makes having LA +1 or more not suck too badly at higher levels.
wraithstrike 04-05-08, 08:45 PM	That's the first clue that you're approaching this with the wrong mindset. Do you actually want a race that's balanced against the other races in the PHB and XPH, or are you trying to "convince" (by which I mean fool/trick/cheat) your DM into letting you get away with playing something significantly better than anything published? Don't make a race that's as strong or stronger than most LA +1 races, then try to convince us that it's okay at LA 0 with begging, strawmen arguments, or distorted comparisons. Let's start with the ability score adjustment. Generally speaking, LA 0 races have either a negative total ability score adjustment (half-orcs, kobolds), or a net-zero ability score adjustment that doesn't necessarily skew the class towards being too good or bad at specific roles. While it's true that grey elves break the normal rule, they have -2 Con, which hurts casters a lot more than -2 Str normally will. They're also a race that DM's will commonly not allow into their games. Size and speed seem normal enough, so we'll skip ahead to the primary racial traits. 4 power points at LA 0/ECL 1 is unprecedented. All the LA 0 psionic races in the XPH have 1-2 points; only the duergar (LA +1) and githyanki (LA +2) have 3 points. Depending on starting ability scores and class, you'll be able to manifest 2-3 times as many powers as other 1st level psionic characters, which is ridiculous. +4 AC unnamed/untyped AC, that stacks with armor, is even more broken. This isn't just too good for psionic characters; anybody who wants to play an arcanist, druid, monk, rogue, etc. would stupid to not want such an obvious advantage. You'd have tons of 1st level characters running around with AC 22+. So no, absolute not. What I can deduce from your poorly thought out attempt, is that you want a race with as much "passive buff" as possible, which is a little unusual for a psionic race - most of the published psionic races have "activated abilities" that you have to learn to manage. So alright, let's try to stick as closely to your idea, in two model, LA 0 and LA +1. PSINILLA (VANILLA PSIONIC RACE) • +2 Intelligence, –2 Constitution. Psinillas are contemplative beings, which makes them insightful but sedentary. • Medium: As Medium creatures, psinillas have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. • Psinilla base land speed is 30 feet. • Naturally Psionic: Psinillas gain 2 bonus power points at 1st level. This benefit does not grant them the ability to manifest powers unless they gain that ability through another source, such as levels in a psionic class. For every 5 Hit Dice a psinilla has, he gains 1 additional bonus power point. • Inertial Dampening (Su): Psinillas constantly radiate a faint psionic aura which helps protect them from harm. They have a +1 bonus to AC, which stacks with all other types of bonuses to AC. This bonus to AC applies even against touch attacks or when a psinilla is flat-footed. For every 10 Hit Dice a psinilla has, this AC bonus increase by 1. However, ferrous and other hard metals, such as steel, adamantine, mithral, and cold iron, disrupt this aura. Psinillas lose their bonus to AC when wearing metal armor or using metal shields. • Favored Class: Psion. • Level Adjustment: 0. TRUE PSINILLA (FRENCH VANILLA PSIONIC RACE) • +2 Intelligence. True psinillas are contemplative and insightful beings. • Medium: As Medium creatures, true psinillas have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. • True psinilla base land speed is 30 feet. • Naturally Psionic: True psinillas gain 4 bonus power points at 1st level. This benefit does not grant them the ability to manifest powers unless they gain that ability through another source, such as levels in a psionic class. For every 4 Hit Dice a true psinilla has, he gains 1 additional bonus power point. • Inertial Dampening (Su): True psinillas constantly radiate a faint psionic aura which helps protect them from harm. They have a +2 bonus to AC, which stacks with all other types of bonuses to AC. This bonus to AC applies even against touch attacks or when a true psinilla is flat-footed. For every 8 Hit Dice a true psinilla has, this AC bonus increase by 1. However, ferrous and other hard metals, such as steel, adamantine, mithral, and cold iron, disrupt this aura. True psinillas lose their bonus to AC when wearing metal armor or using metal shields. • Favored Class: Any psionic class. • Level Adjustment: +1. You'll notice that in both cases, I borrowed the "scaling benefits" model from the raptoran (Races of the Wild) and half-celestial template (MM I). This allows abilities that would be too powerful at 1st level to still belong to a LA 0 race (you just don't develop them until later on), or viewed the other way, it makes having LA +1 or more not suck too badly at higher levels. Yeah, what he said.
AtsuiShoto 04-05-08, 10:37 PM	Actually the 3 PP needs to be countered by something that affects a 1st level character to be balanced. It does not matter if 3pp is countered at higher levels because by then it is already a nonfactor. ...isn't that what I said? A weakness that becomes irrelevant at high levels. Something like -3 hitpoints would be very bad at 1st level, no big deal by 5th, and totally negligible by 10th. Light sensitivity is another good example, because fixing it will consume a large portion of 1st-level funds, but by 5th level those few hundred gp for goggles (or what have you) are a complete non-issue.
wraithstrike 04-05-08, 10:44 PM	...isn't that what I said? A weakness that becomes irrelevant at high levels. Something like -3 hitpoints would be very bad at 1st level, no big deal by 5th, and totally negligible by 10th. Light sensitivity is another good example, because fixing it will consume a large portion of 1st-level funds, but by 5th level those few hundred gp for goggles (or what have you) are a complete non-issue. I guess it is:D
Nathreet 04-07-08, 11:04 PM	LA 1 fixes the complaints about the OP's suggestion. It hurts a psion way too much. Thus everything else becomes balanced.
NetGod 04-08-08, 11:01 PM	LA 1 fixes the complaints about the OP's suggestion. It hurts a psion way too much. Thus everything else becomes balanced. When you say 'LA1' . You mean the character starts out as level one with no class correct? Then to make level one Psion or whatever, the character would need enough experience points for level 2. Is that right?
Lotus Crane 04-09-08, 12:13 PM	When you say 'LA1' . You mean the character starts out as level one with no class correct? Then to make level one Psion or whatever, the character would need enough experience points for level 2. Is that right? Well, because a character can't exist without at least 1 level or HD, you normally can't even be/play a "1st level" character in that sense, if you have LA +1. You'd have to start as an ECL 2 character (1 class level, +1 LA), which means that unless your DM is very generous, you can't be in a party where everybody else is starting at ECL 1 (1 class level, 0 LA). Even if you did, you count as a 2nd level character for the purpose of receiving XP (meaning that every time your party overcame a challenge, you'd receive less XP than them). You also wouldn't level up for the first time until you had 3000 XP, the necessary amount to be a 3rd level character (for you, it would be 2 class levels, +1 LA). Due to the fact that you were receiving less XP than them until they hit 2nd level themselves, it's likely that they will hit 3rd level before you do, meaning that they'll have 3 class levels while you still only have 1.
nova head 04-10-08, 05:56 PM	Duergar are only LA+1 with +3PP at 1st lvl. * +2 Constitution, -4 Charisma. * Medium size. * Duergar base land speed is 20 feet. However, gray dwarves can move at this speed even when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load (unlike other creatures, whose speed is reduced in such situations). * Darkvision out to 120 feet. * Immunity to paralysis, phantasms, and poison. * +2 racial bonus on saves against spells and spell-like effects. * Stability: Duergar are exceptionally stable on their feet. A duergar receives a +4 bonus on ability checks made to resist being bull rushed or tripped when standing on the ground (but not when climbing, flying, riding or otherwise not standing firmly on the ground). * Stonecunning: This ability grants a duergar a +2 racial bonus on Search checks to notice unusual stonework, such as sliding walls, stonework, traps, new construction (even when built to match the old), unsafe stone surfaces, shaky stone ceilings, and the like. Something that isn’t stone but that is disguised as stone also counts as unusual stonework. A gray dwarf who merely comes within 10 feet of unusual stonework can make a Search check as if he were actively searching, and a duergar can use the Search skill to find stonework traps as a rogue can. A duergar can also intuit depth, sensing his approximate depth underground as naturally as a human can sense which way is up. Duergar have a sixth sense about stonework, an innate ability that they get plenty of opportunity to practice and hone in their underground homes. * Psi-Like Abilities: 1/day—expansion, invisibility. These abilities affect only the duergar and whatever he carries. Manifester level is equal to Hit Dice (minimum 3rd). * Naturally Psionic: Duergar gain 3 bonus power points at 1st level. This benefit does not grant them the ability to manifest powers unless they gain that ability through another source, such as levels in a psionic class. * +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against orcs (including half-orcs) and goblinoids (including goblins, hobgoblins, and bugbears). * +4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against creatures of the giant type (such as ogres, trolls, and hill giants). * Light Sensitivity (Ex): Duergar are dazzled in sunlight or within the radius of a daylight spell. * Duergar have a +4 racial bonus on Move Silently checks and a +1 racial bonus on Listen and Spot checks. They have a +2 racial bonus on Appraise and Craft checks that are related to stone or metal. * Automatic Languages: Common, Dwarven, Undercommon. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Giant, Goblin, Orc, Terran. * Favored Class: Fighter. * Level Adjustment: +1. Not bad for LA+1 they even get Psi-Like Abilities @Lotus: True, but most races that have an LA are just as/or stronger then the others of same ECL
sonofzeal 04-11-08, 12:38 AM	Duergar are only LA+1 with +3PP at 1st lvl. Not bad for LA+1 they even get Psi-Like Abilities @Lotus: True, but most races that have an LA are just as/or stronger then the others of same ECL ....yeah, but +2 Con / -4 Cha? Horrid. That's just asking for Death By Ego Whip. Or not so much "death" as "complete-comatose-helplessness", but either way those are worse than what we expect for an LA +0 race, so an LA +1 race with those stats better darn well give up as TON of goodies to make up for it.