dark template in tome of magic [Archive] - Wizards Community

dark template in tome of magic [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Mysticbadger
06-13-07, 09:27 AM I think the dark template in tome of magic is much too good for a +1 LA. What's your opinion ?
RikuKupo
06-13-07, 09:50 AM No way! If anything it's OVERpriced. :shifty: (I'm a rogue lover, don't mess it up for the rest of us!)
Majick
06-13-07, 09:59 AM Hide in plain sight ain't that great, a little bit of cold resistance ain't that great, and +10 to movement, though good, still ain't that great. You don't even get a level adjustement.

No way is it actually worth the +1, weak at best man
Witch
06-13-07, 10:08 AM It's worth the +1. Not more, but it's worth its price. I'm rather fond of it, myself.
RikuKupo
06-13-07, 10:19 AM I think it's worth about 22,000 gp... and the throat body slot. :P
goawayugh
06-13-07, 10:39 AM I think it's worth about 22,000 gp... and the throat body slot. :P

I don't even have the book (although I do know what you're talking about), and I have to agree with this.
snakeman830
06-13-07, 11:52 AM I don't even have the book (although I do know what you're talking about), and I have to agree with this.

Seconded!

However, with LA buyoff, I think it's worth just naturally having it, since by third level (assuming no other LA) the LA is gone. During those three levels are when it can really help.

However, while HIPS is good (though some others may not think so), it's the +8 racial bonus to hide that makes this feature especially worth it. Add +6 to move silently and you've got yourself a good stealth boost.

My personal favorite of the PHB races to throw this template on is halfling so you get +12 hide, +8 move silently, and you're just as fast as a human. Not bad for a stealthy little guy.
goawayugh
06-13-07, 12:22 PM My personal favorite of the PHB races to throw this template on is halfling so you get +12 hide, +8 move silently, and you're just as fast as a human. Not bad for a stealthy little guy.

I know you said PHB, but try it on whisper gnome! +16 hide, +10 move silently at ECL2!
RikuKupo
06-13-07, 02:15 PM However, with LA buyoff, I think it's worth just naturally having it, since by third level (assuming no other LA) the LA is gone. During those three levels are when it can really help.

What is this LA buyoff thing you speak of? It intrigues me, does it make LA go away or something?
Perun
06-13-07, 03:17 PM What is this LA buyoff thing you speak of? It intrigues me, does it make LA go away or something?

Yes, you pay XP, and lose the LA (or part of your LA, if it's higher than +1). You can read about it here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm).

Regards.
DreamerInsane
06-13-07, 03:23 PM It's a variant from Unearthed Arcana, IIRC. Allows you to sacrifice some XP to get rid of a level adjustment (which means you get more XP due to lower ECL)

It's excellent for getting rid of LA 1 and 2, but not much more.
Tempest Stormwind
06-13-07, 03:43 PM I'd use it at +1.

However, the REAL clincher here is not the HiPS, not the movement rate, not the weak resistances... but rather the fact that it switches your native plane to the Plane of Shadow.

Dark template (likely through the collar) + Planar Bubble = +10% quasireality and free maximizing on all shadow spells. In the right character's hands (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=655556), this can be freaking insane. Add that to HiPS (note that the class in question gets Hide as a class skill) and a few other decent goodies and it seems that +1 is a bit weak in this niche case.

Strong in some niches, average or weak in most of them. It's a weak +1 in general, but acceptable at +1.
Fallenangel359
06-13-07, 03:59 PM I'm grouped with a rogue 5 assassin 2 thats a whispergnome darkcreature

dark is +8 hide, whispergnome is +9 hide, thats +17, plus full ranks put him at 27, plus dex mod pushed him to 32...

Thats a wee bit obscene.
He can in theory make the epic hide check of hiding a creature the same size of him, in plain sight, behind him, without anyone noticing, at a +6 on his mod still. Thats obscene.
RikuKupo
06-13-07, 05:59 PM How does the LA buyoff mesh with the savage species rituals? If you become dark with the ritual, then pay it off, you would be at LA 0. Would that leave you free to become another template with a ritual, and repeat the process?
Perun
06-14-07, 01:42 AM How does the LA buyoff mesh with the savage species rituals? If you become dark with the ritual, then pay it off, you would be at LA 0. Would that leave you free to become another template with a ritual, and repeat the process?

I've only read once through the SS rituals, but as long as you acquired a LA +1 template before you reach your 3rd class level (since you can buy the LA off only at specific levels: 3rd for LA +1; 6th and 9th for LA +2; 9th, 15th, and 18th for LA +3, etc), I'd say it's fine.

But don't the SS rituals cost XP, too? If I'm remembering it correctly, then you'd be paying XP through your nose -- both for the rituals and the LA.
Generic Poster
06-14-07, 01:47 AM I was actually looking at this template as a DM as something to throw at a party (dark Kenku's in this case) and I came here to ask the same question, whether this is as good as it appears to be.

Maybe I'm not understanding hide in plain sight right though. If I had my rogue dark kenku for example, I could just continue to do a range attack and hide without penalties (since I don't have to bluff and move anywhere), and with the SA bonuses on my attack. Technically I should be able to keep doing this until someone casts daylight or rolls much higher then me on a spot check, right? How is that a +1 LA with all those other bonuses thrown in? Usually hide in plain sight is a mid to high level ability.
Tempest Stormwind
06-14-07, 02:15 AM Maybe I'm not understanding hide in plain sight right though. If I had my rogue dark kenku for example, I could just continue to do a range attack and hide without penalties (since I don't have to bluff and move anywhere), and with the SA bonuses on my attack. Technically I should be able to keep doing this until someone casts daylight or rolls much higher then me on a spot check, right? How is that a +1 LA with all those other bonuses thrown in? Usually hide in plain sight is a mid to high level ability.

ALL of the threads with problems on HiPS can be solved thus:

Hide (the skill) says the following:You need cover or concealment in order to attempt a Hide check. Total cover or total concealment usually (but not always; see Special, below) obviates the need for a Hide check, since nothing can see you anyway.

If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide. You can run around a corner or behind cover so that you’re out of sight and then hide, but the others then know at least where you went.

If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check; see below), though, you can attempt to hide. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Hide check if you can get to a hiding place of some kind. (As a general guideline, the hiding place has to be within 1 foot per rank you have in Hide.) This check, however, is made at a -10 penalty because you have to move fast. A summary:
Blue) You need something to hide behind. Otherwise, you're just crouching on the battlefield, and you get seen. If you are seen, If you fail to not be seen, something unpleasant happens (http://youtube.com/watch?v=zekiZYSVdeQ). While normally cover, you can do the same sort of thing with darkness, shadows, fog, or similar concealment.

Green) You cannot be observed by those you are hiding from -- if you move behind a tree and never come back out, your opponents know EXACTLY where you are. This can, however, be obtained by misdirecting your opponents via Bluff.

There are ways around both of these.

1) If you have the Camouflage capability, you can ignore the blue requirement. A ranger with Camouflage could quickly divert his opponents' eyes and quite literally hide simply by blending into the grass. If they turned their eyes back and looked at where he was standing, they'd have to make Spot checks to see him. Why? It's extraordinary (or sometimes supernatural); it bends the laws of physics as a definition. Make up your own damn descripition. ;)

2) If you have Hide in Plain Sight, you can ignore the green requirement. You can hide even if people see you and are observing you, although you still need something to hide behind. People could look right at you as you run into the shadows, and would need Spot checks to find you afterward even if they saw exactly where you went. (HiPS says nothing about removing the need for something to hide behind.)

If you have BOTH of these abilities, you can have people watching you, spend a move action to hide, and force all of them to make Spot checks or simply have you "fade into the foreground" in front of their very eyes.

Both abilities mention when they apply -- a shadowdancer (or Dark templated creature) only functions near shadows that are not its own, for instance. Furthermore note that creatures can still likely pinpoint you (if they saw you hide behind a tree, they know what square to target), although attacking you would effectively be attacking an invisible target (thus, you'd better move to another source of cover or concealment).

So, for your Dark creature's HiPS, remember that he needs shadows to use HiPS, and even with HiPS he needs something to hide behind (and if he's in at least shadowy illumination, he can in fact hide quite easily since that provides concealment).
snakeman830
06-14-07, 11:44 AM I may not have ToM, but I don't recall the Dark template saying they needed to be within a certian distance of a shadow for them to use HiPS. Shadowdancer is the only instance of that particular line I can remember seeing.

Edit: Assasin says that too, but they both say that, so long as they ARE within ten feet of a shadow, they don't need anything to hide behind.
RikuKupo
06-14-07, 01:19 PM I've only read once through the SS rituals, but as long as you acquired a LA +1 template before you reach your 3rd class level (since you can buy the LA off only at specific levels: 3rd for LA +1; 6th and 9th for LA +2; 9th, 15th, and 18th for LA +3, etc), I'd say it's fine.

But don't the SS rituals cost XP, too? If I'm remembering it correctly, then you'd be paying XP through your nose -- both for the rituals and the LA.

Well what if my naturally Dark assassin character pays off the Dark part, then uses a ritual to become Feral? He has (more than) 3 class levels, so can he pay off the feral part next level? Then become Winged, and repeat the process?
Perun
06-14-07, 01:26 PM Well what if my naturally Dark assassin character pays off the Dark part, then uses a ritual to become Feral? He has (more than) 3 class levels, so can he pay off the feral part next level? Then become Winged, and repeat the process?

No. You're only eligible for LA buy-off at specific class levels. Miss that one chance, and you can't buy your LA off any more.

Regards.
RikuKupo
06-14-07, 02:54 PM :tantrum: :pbbbtt: I was so gonna spam that idea...
G_Mancer
06-15-07, 12:26 AM No. You're only eligible for LA buy-off at specific class levels. Miss that one chance, and you can't buy your LA off any more.

Regards.

i'm pretty sure that you need only gain x number of lvls to get rid of the LA. i dont have the book in front of me, but i'm pretty sure it didn't say "3rd lvl" as opposed to "3 class lvls" or somethin...
Andorxor
06-15-07, 01:51 AM Here is the text from the srd

Once the total of a character's class levels (not including any Hit Dice from his creature type or his level adjustment) reaches three times his level adjustment, his level adjustment is eligible to be decreased by 1.

If the level adjustment is greater than +1, this process repeats until the creature's level adjustment reaches +0. Each time, use the creature's current level adjustment to determine the point at which the level adjustment can go down by 1. For example, a drow (level adjustment +2) may drop to level adjustment +1 after gaining her sixth class level, and then to +0 after gaining an additional three class levels.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mysticbadger 06-13-07, 09:27 AM	I think the dark template in tome of magic is much too good for a +1 LA. What's your opinion ?
RikuKupo 06-13-07, 09:50 AM	No way! If anything it's OVERpriced. :shifty: (I'm a rogue lover, don't mess it up for the rest of us!)
Majick 06-13-07, 09:59 AM	Hide in plain sight ain't that great, a little bit of cold resistance ain't that great, and +10 to movement, though good, still ain't that great. You don't even get a level adjustement. No way is it actually worth the +1, weak at best man
Witch 06-13-07, 10:08 AM	It's worth the +1. Not more, but it's worth its price. I'm rather fond of it, myself.
RikuKupo 06-13-07, 10:19 AM	I think it's worth about 22,000 gp... and the throat body slot. :P
goawayugh 06-13-07, 10:39 AM	I think it's worth about 22,000 gp... and the throat body slot. :P I don't even have the book (although I do know what you're talking about), and I have to agree with this.
snakeman830 06-13-07, 11:52 AM	I don't even have the book (although I do know what you're talking about), and I have to agree with this. Seconded! However, with LA buyoff, I think it's worth just naturally having it, since by third level (assuming no other LA) the LA is gone. During those three levels are when it can really help. However, while HIPS is good (though some others may not think so), it's the +8 racial bonus to hide that makes this feature especially worth it. Add +6 to move silently and you've got yourself a good stealth boost. My personal favorite of the PHB races to throw this template on is halfling so you get +12 hide, +8 move silently, and you're just as fast as a human. Not bad for a stealthy little guy.
goawayugh 06-13-07, 12:22 PM	My personal favorite of the PHB races to throw this template on is halfling so you get +12 hide, +8 move silently, and you're just as fast as a human. Not bad for a stealthy little guy. I know you said PHB, but try it on whisper gnome! +16 hide, +10 move silently at ECL2!
RikuKupo 06-13-07, 02:15 PM	However, with LA buyoff, I think it's worth just naturally having it, since by third level (assuming no other LA) the LA is gone. During those three levels are when it can really help. What is this LA buyoff thing you speak of? It intrigues me, does it make LA go away or something?
Perun 06-13-07, 03:17 PM	What is this LA buyoff thing you speak of? It intrigues me, does it make LA go away or something? Yes, you pay XP, and lose the LA (or part of your LA, if it's higher than +1). You can read about it here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm). Regards.
DreamerInsane 06-13-07, 03:23 PM	It's a variant from Unearthed Arcana, IIRC. Allows you to sacrifice some XP to get rid of a level adjustment (which means you get more XP due to lower ECL) It's excellent for getting rid of LA 1 and 2, but not much more.
Tempest Stormwind 06-13-07, 03:43 PM	I'd use it at +1. However, the REAL clincher here is not the HiPS, not the movement rate, not the weak resistances... but rather the fact that it switches your native plane to the Plane of Shadow. Dark template (likely through the collar) + Planar Bubble = +10% quasireality and free maximizing on all shadow spells. In the right character's hands (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=655556), this can be freaking insane. Add that to HiPS (note that the class in question gets Hide as a class skill) and a few other decent goodies and it seems that +1 is a bit weak in this niche case. Strong in some niches, average or weak in most of them. It's a weak +1 in general, but acceptable at +1.
Fallenangel359 06-13-07, 03:59 PM	I'm grouped with a rogue 5 assassin 2 thats a whispergnome darkcreature dark is +8 hide, whispergnome is +9 hide, thats +17, plus full ranks put him at 27, plus dex mod pushed him to 32... Thats a wee bit obscene. He can in theory make the epic hide check of hiding a creature the same size of him, in plain sight, behind him, without anyone noticing, at a +6 on his mod still. Thats obscene.
RikuKupo 06-13-07, 05:59 PM	How does the LA buyoff mesh with the savage species rituals? If you become dark with the ritual, then pay it off, you would be at LA 0. Would that leave you free to become another template with a ritual, and repeat the process?
Perun 06-14-07, 01:42 AM	How does the LA buyoff mesh with the savage species rituals? If you become dark with the ritual, then pay it off, you would be at LA 0. Would that leave you free to become another template with a ritual, and repeat the process? I've only read once through the SS rituals, but as long as you acquired a LA +1 template before you reach your 3rd class level (since you can buy the LA off only at specific levels: 3rd for LA +1; 6th and 9th for LA +2; 9th, 15th, and 18th for LA +3, etc), I'd say it's fine. But don't the SS rituals cost XP, too? If I'm remembering it correctly, then you'd be paying XP through your nose -- both for the rituals and the LA.
Generic Poster 06-14-07, 01:47 AM	I was actually looking at this template as a DM as something to throw at a party (dark Kenku's in this case) and I came here to ask the same question, whether this is as good as it appears to be. Maybe I'm not understanding hide in plain sight right though. If I had my rogue dark kenku for example, I could just continue to do a range attack and hide without penalties (since I don't have to bluff and move anywhere), and with the SA bonuses on my attack. Technically I should be able to keep doing this until someone casts daylight or rolls much higher then me on a spot check, right? How is that a +1 LA with all those other bonuses thrown in? Usually hide in plain sight is a mid to high level ability.
Tempest Stormwind 06-14-07, 02:15 AM	Maybe I'm not understanding hide in plain sight right though. If I had my rogue dark kenku for example, I could just continue to do a range attack and hide without penalties (since I don't have to bluff and move anywhere), and with the SA bonuses on my attack. Technically I should be able to keep doing this until someone casts daylight or rolls much higher then me on a spot check, right? How is that a +1 LA with all those other bonuses thrown in? Usually hide in plain sight is a mid to high level ability. ALL of the threads with problems on HiPS can be solved thus: Hide (the skill) says the following:You need cover or concealment in order to attempt a Hide check. Total cover or total concealment usually (but not always; see Special, below) obviates the need for a Hide check, since nothing can see you anyway. If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide. You can run around a corner or behind cover so that you’re out of sight and then hide, but the others then know at least where you went. If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check; see below), though, you can attempt to hide. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Hide check if you can get to a hiding place of some kind. (As a general guideline, the hiding place has to be within 1 foot per rank you have in Hide.) This check, however, is made at a -10 penalty because you have to move fast. A summary: Blue) You need something to hide behind. Otherwise, you're just crouching on the battlefield, and you get seen. If you are seen, If you fail to not be seen, something unpleasant happens (http://youtube.com/watch?v=zekiZYSVdeQ). While normally cover, you can do the same sort of thing with darkness, shadows, fog, or similar concealment. Green) You cannot be observed by those you are hiding from -- if you move behind a tree and never come back out, your opponents know EXACTLY where you are. This can, however, be obtained by misdirecting your opponents via Bluff. There are ways around both of these. 1) If you have the Camouflage capability, you can ignore the blue requirement. A ranger with Camouflage could quickly divert his opponents' eyes and quite literally hide simply by blending into the grass. If they turned their eyes back and looked at where he was standing, they'd have to make Spot checks to see him. Why? It's extraordinary (or sometimes supernatural); it bends the laws of physics as a definition. Make up your own damn descripition. ;) 2) If you have Hide in Plain Sight, you can ignore the green requirement. You can hide even if people see you and are observing you, although you still need something to hide behind. People could look right at you as you run into the shadows, and would need Spot checks to find you afterward even if they saw exactly where you went. (HiPS says nothing about removing the need for something to hide behind.) If you have BOTH of these abilities, you can have people watching you, spend a move action to hide, and force all of them to make Spot checks or simply have you "fade into the foreground" in front of their very eyes. Both abilities mention when they apply -- a shadowdancer (or Dark templated creature) only functions near shadows that are not its own, for instance. Furthermore note that creatures can still likely pinpoint you (if they saw you hide behind a tree, they know what square to target), although attacking you would effectively be attacking an invisible target (thus, you'd better move to another source of cover or concealment). So, for your Dark creature's HiPS, remember that he needs shadows to use HiPS, and even with HiPS he needs something to hide behind (and if he's in at least shadowy illumination, he can in fact hide quite easily since that provides concealment).
snakeman830 06-14-07, 11:44 AM	I may not have ToM, but I don't recall the Dark template saying they needed to be within a certian distance of a shadow for them to use HiPS. Shadowdancer is the only instance of that particular line I can remember seeing. Edit: Assasin says that too, but they both say that, so long as they ARE within ten feet of a shadow, they don't need anything to hide behind.
RikuKupo 06-14-07, 01:19 PM	I've only read once through the SS rituals, but as long as you acquired a LA +1 template before you reach your 3rd class level (since you can buy the LA off only at specific levels: 3rd for LA +1; 6th and 9th for LA +2; 9th, 15th, and 18th for LA +3, etc), I'd say it's fine. But don't the SS rituals cost XP, too? If I'm remembering it correctly, then you'd be paying XP through your nose -- both for the rituals and the LA. Well what if my naturally Dark assassin character pays off the Dark part, then uses a ritual to become Feral? He has (more than) 3 class levels, so can he pay off the feral part next level? Then become Winged, and repeat the process?
Perun 06-14-07, 01:26 PM	Well what if my naturally Dark assassin character pays off the Dark part, then uses a ritual to become Feral? He has (more than) 3 class levels, so can he pay off the feral part next level? Then become Winged, and repeat the process? No. You're only eligible for LA buy-off at specific class levels. Miss that one chance, and you can't buy your LA off any more. Regards.
RikuKupo 06-14-07, 02:54 PM	:tantrum: :pbbbtt: I was so gonna spam that idea...
G_Mancer 06-15-07, 12:26 AM	No. You're only eligible for LA buy-off at specific class levels. Miss that one chance, and you can't buy your LA off any more. Regards. i'm pretty sure that you need only gain x number of lvls to get rid of the LA. i dont have the book in front of me, but i'm pretty sure it didn't say "3rd lvl" as opposed to "3 class lvls" or somethin...
Andorxor 06-15-07, 01:51 AM	Here is the text from the srd Once the total of a character's class levels (not including any Hit Dice from his creature type or his level adjustment) reaches three times his level adjustment, his level adjustment is eligible to be decreased by 1. If the level adjustment is greater than +1, this process repeats until the creature's level adjustment reaches +0. Each time, use the creature's current level adjustment to determine the point at which the level adjustment can go down by 1. For example, a drow (level adjustment +2) may drop to level adjustment +1 after gaining her sixth class level, and then to +0 after gaining an additional three class levels.