Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kurama Youko 09-19-07, 09:15 PM	I was looking over the Gargoyle just recently, and it hit me that its LA is way to high for abilities it gets. Let's look at it. 4 Racial Hit Dice. It's always been my opinion that races with racial hit dice should reduce the LA of a creature simply because these hit dice are not class hit dice and don't offer the sheer power as class levels do. IMO every 2 racial hit dice should knock off a LA. Land Speed 40ft, Fly speed 60ft aveg, that could be worth a LA+1, not solely because of the fly speed but because of the increased land speed as well. Nat Armor +4, thats worth a +1. Darkvision 60ft. not worth a LA Freeze, not worth a LA, but if you factor in the bonus they receive on hide checks in stone settings. Then together they are worth a +1 Ability Scores: Now this is the real meat and potatoes, +4 Str, Dex, and +8 Con, -4 int and charisma. Color me crazy even with a net profit of +8, this is no more than a +1 LA. Damage Reduction: Now.. this is hard to argue only because I don't know if their DR is Ex or Su, if its Ex then definitely high int +1 LA. If its Su then its low end +1 and possibly even forgetiable when it comes to lowering the over all score based on appeal. in my opinion they balance out more at LA +2 or possibly low end LA+3 if the DR is indeed Extraordinary. Why does the DR matter so much. Well if you in a Anti Magic field and your DR is 10/Magic and its Extraordinary thats -10 to all physical attacks while in the Anti Magic field, thats a big advantage against archers and some melee types. however if its Su, then you lose this ability and anyone with a club can pound you senseless. Also everyone has magic weapons by the time the current ECL for a Gargolye becomes playable. So am I wrong, does anyone else agree?
dman11235 09-19-07, 09:32 PM	First off, DR/magic is always negated in an AMF. Actually, I'd put it at LA +4 or maybe possibly 5. I haven't looked at the race in a really long time, this is going from what you have said. Those stats are GREAT. And damage reduction goes a long ways in a PC's hands, even /magic. I am now looking at the race for the actual LA. I think that they had it a little too high, but not 2 or 3. They probably had it at the cusp of 4 and five, and went safe rather than sorry. It might be too much for a +4. Oh, and those a not bad racial HD, as far as racial HD go. They aren't dragon or outsider, but they are one of the better ones.
wonlee76 09-19-07, 09:32 PM	Stripping away the racial HD: Fly 60 ft: +2 LA (see winged template in SS as support for this LA) 4 Natural Attacks: +1 LA +4 Natural Armor: +1 LA Damage Reduction:+1 LA (maybe a bit less since it is only DR/Magic but it does allow the gargoyle's own natural attacks bypass DR/Magic so it is still somewhat useful). Freeze: +.5 LA Racial Bonuses to SKill: +0 Darkvision: +0 +4 Str, +4 Dex, +8 Con, -4 Int, -4 Cha: +2 LA (yes, the net is only +8 but considering the stat boosts are front loaded into all of the physical stats but this just means the race is designed to be a beater). Total LA: +6-7 give or take 4 Racial HD = -2 LA 4 HD; +4-5 LA based on your calculation: That's a ECL 8 or 9 now. Looks like I might be over valuing some of the abilties or undervaluing it but an ECL 9 doesn't seem far off the mark.
IdleAltruism 09-19-07, 09:33 PM	* +4 Strength, +4 Dexterity, +8 Constitution, -4 Intelligence, -4 Charisma. * Medium size. * A gargoyle’s base land speed is 40 feet. It also has a fly speed of 60 feet (average). * Darkvision out to 60 feet. * Racial Hit Dice: A gargoyle begins with four levels of monstrous humanoid, which provide 4d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +4, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +1, Ref +4, and Will +4. * Racial Skills: A gargoyle’s monstrous humanoid levels give it skill points equal to 7 × (2 + Int modifier). Its class skills are Hide, Listen, and Spot. A gargoyle has a +2 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, and Spot checks, and an additional +8 bonus on Hide checks when it is concealed against a background of stone. * Racial Feats: A gargoyle’s monstrous humanoid levels give it two feats. * +4 natural armor bonus. * Special Qualities (see above): Damage reduction 10/magic, freeze. * Automatic Languages: Common. Bonus Languages: Auran, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Halfling, Giant, Terran. * Favored Class: Fighter. * Level adjustment +5. For starters there is no "net" stat gain. Int and Cha are dump stats they don't count for much. Their physical abilities put them in the LA+3-4 range by themselves. The nat armor is a bit low, DR is good, freeze is fluff but still good. When you really pay attention not a whole lot of monsters have maxed spot(or NPCs for that matter). The level adjustment isn't exactly fair on this one, they are a high LA+4 but not worth a 5. I would put them at LA+4, but I agree the racial HD are unfair. Generally Racial HD pay for some of the LA this is just flat LA+HD. With racial HD they should be at about an LA+3 maybe. Compared to some other LA+4s like half celestials this is semi-weaker especially with the scaling abilities of the half-celestial. They would be a very playable race if they didn't have the racial HD at all, a bit stupid but decent physical competitors in higher level games. Its pretty much the general consensus that they dropped the ball on ECL/LA/Racial HD. It really isn't a necessary evil, its just very difficult to balance things like this. Racial HD 4+LA+3 wouldn't be a bad "fix" ECL of 8 sounds about right.
Kurama Youko 09-19-07, 09:53 PM	I forgot about the Natural attacks actually. You'll have to show me where it says Extraordinary DR is lost in a Anti Magic Field because the SRD does not back you up on this. DR can be Ex or Su however and Ex abilities are cept in anti magic field. Also there is a net gain, just because you would make Cha and Int a dump stat doesn't balance out or inhibit the race at all. Being a optimizer doesn't automatically add on LA's. That's just plan silly. Dwarfs get a +2 to Con, and -2 Charisma, should we penalize them and add a LA just because your more inclinded to play along with its strengths as oppose to its weaknesses. No, when they explained how they were estimating LA's in the Savage Species that spoke against this im sure.
IdleAltruism 09-19-07, 10:18 PM	Also there is a net gain, just because you would make Cha and Int a dump stat doesn't balance out or inhibit the race at all. Being a optimizer doesn't automatically add on LA's. That's just plan silly. Dwarfs get a +2 to Con, and -2 Charisma, should we penalize them and add a LA just because your more inclinded to play along with its strengths as oppose to its weaknesses. No, when they explained how they were estimating LA's in the Savage Species that spoke against this im sure. Actually it does....because a creature has potential to be optimized as X makes it have a higher LA then if it had no optimizing potential at all. Being restricted in certain ways(class wise) has a very minor effect on LA. And thats why dwarves are considered possibly the strongest core base race. Optimization should always be accounted for, dwarves are a very bad example of balance. They just aren't strong enough to be an LA+1 and they intended it to be that way. Why do you think we have the cleric and codzilla? Same reason the dwarf is so powerful.
dman11235 09-19-07, 10:25 PM	You'll have to show me where it says Extraordinary DR is lost in a Anti Magic Field because the SRD does not back you up on this. DR can be Ex or Su however and Ex abilities are cept in anti magic field. When did anyone say that (ex) DR was lost? DR/magic is ALWAYS lost in an antimagic field, because it is magical. The only creature I know of that has literally unbeatable DR and is not DR/- is the Colossus. It projects an AMF around it, but is not affected by it, and has DR/epic.
Kurama Youko 09-19-07, 10:45 PM	How can damage reduction be magical and extraordinary at the same exact time? Bold for relevant issues. Special Abilities: A special ability is either extraordinary (Ex), spell-like (Sp), or supernatural (Su). Extraordinary: Extraordinary abilities are nonmagical, don’t become ineffective in an antimagic field, and are not subject to any effect that disrupts magic. Using an extraordinary ability is a free action unless otherwise noted. Damage Reduction (Ex or Su): A creature with this special quality ignores damage from most weapons and natural attacks. Wounds heal immediately, or the weapon bounces off harmlessly (in either case, the opponent knows the attack was ineffective). The creature takes normal damage from energy attacks (even nonmagical ones), spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. A certain kind of weapon can sometimes damage the creature normally, as noted below. The entry indicates the amount of damage ignored (usually 5 to 15 points) and the type of weapon that negates the ability. Some monsters are vulnerable to piercing, bludgeoning, or slashing damage. Some monsters are vulnerable to certain materials, such as alchemical silver, adamantine, or cold-forged iron. Attacks from weapons that are not made of the correct material have their damage reduced, even if the weapon has an enhancement bonus. Some monsters are vulnerable to magic weapons. Any weapon with at least a +1 magical enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls overcomes the damage reduction of these monsters. Such creatures’ natural weapons (but not their attacks with weapons) are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. A few very powerful monsters are vulnerable only to epic weapons; that is, magic weapons with at least a +6 enhancement bonus. Such creatures’ natural weapons are also treated as epic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Some monsters are vulnerable to chaotic-, evil-, good-, or lawful-aligned weapons. When a cleric casts align weapon, affected weapons might gain one or more of these properties, and certain magic weapons have these properties as well. A creature with an alignment subtype (chaotic, evil, good, or lawful) can overcome this type of damage reduction with its natural weapons and weapons it wields as if the weapons or natural weapons had an alignment (or alignments) that match the subtype(s) of the creature. When a damage reduction entry has a dash (–) after the slash, no weapon negates the damage reduction. A few creatures are harmed by more than one kind of weapon. A weapon of either type overcomes this damage reduction. A few other creatures require combinations of different types of attacks to overcome their damage reduction. A weapon must be both types to overcome this damage reduction. A weapon that is only one type is still subject to damage reduction.
Kurama Youko 09-19-07, 10:48 PM	Actually it does....because a creature has potential to be optimized as X makes it have a higher LA then if it had no optimizing potential at all. Being restricted in certain ways(class wise) has a very minor effect on LA. And thats why dwarves are considered possibly the strongest core base race. Optimization should always be accounted for, dwarves are a very bad example of balance. They just aren't strong enough to be an LA+1 and they intended it to be that way. Why do you think we have the cleric and codzilla? Same reason the dwarf is so powerful. im not really so much as trying to single the Dwarf out as powerful or weak, but the idea racial stat modifiers deciding your class which in terms decides if a race should get a LA higher than would normally be expected due to the fact they get modifiers to stats that might be good for a class is silly to me. Those stats aren't granting you the class abilities any sooner. I just have a different way of looking at it I guess.
dman11235 09-20-07, 01:09 AM	How can damage reduction be magical and extraordinary at the same exact time? Bold for relevant issues. It's not. DR/magic, epic, and alignment is (su). I'm currently trying to find where it says that. I'm certain that that is right, but I cannot for the life of me remember where I saw it. It does make sense to you, doesn't it?
runestar 09-20-07, 04:45 AM	I am not sure if this was reiterated anywhere else either, but it was clarified in the FAQ. How do you use the damage reduction of 3.0 monsters with the new 3.5 rules? Is there a way to convert a damage reduction entry so that it works with the new rules? First, download a free copy of the D&D v.3.5 Accessory Update booklet. This has 3.5 damage reduction values for monsters from Monster Manual II, Fiend Folio, Deities and Demigods, Epic Level Handbook, and the Manual of the Planes. You can find a link to the booklet right on the D&D homepage on the Wizard’s of the Coast website: www.wizards.com/dnd. To convert damage reduction values for other monsters, just look for a similar monster in the 3.5 Monster Manual and assign your monster a similar damage reduction. Devils, for example, get damage reduction #/good and silver. In most cases, the # would be 15 or less (and usually 10 or less). Damage Reduction: Unless otherwise stated by the monster’s description, use these definitions to determine whether damage reduction components are extraordinary or supernatural. Extraordinary • DR #/slashing, piercing, or bludgeoning • DR #/adamantine • DR #/— Supernatural • DR #/silver or cold iron • DR #/magic • DR #/chaotic, evil, good, or lawful im not really so much as trying to single the Dwarf out as powerful or weak, but the idea racial stat modifiers deciding your class which in terms decides if a race should get a LA higher than would normally be expected due to the fact they get modifiers to stats that might be good for a class is silly to me. Those stats aren't granting you the class abilities any sooner. I just have a different way of looking at it I guess. Another way of putting it is that you may have to imagine the worst possible case scenario, and work on the assumption that the ability will somehow be milked/abused by the player for all it is worth. You can argue that it is unfair to the person who does not optimize, but that may be the best option, if we are to assign a 1-size-fits-all value to LA...
Kurama Youko 09-20-07, 07:22 AM	i never question that there was Su DR, infact It was one of the reasons why I lobbied against giving them a high LA because of having DR/Magic. That was mentioned in my very first post, under the inclination that if their DR is Ex its worth a LA of 1.5 or 2, but that if it was Su (more importantly DR/Magic) that its worth a little less, 1 or .5 depending on how big the DR is.
runestar 09-20-07, 09:00 AM	Dr /magic is pretty useless for npcs past lv1 or 2, since every player worth his salt will get a magic weapon asap. However, it is still moderately useful for PCs, since there are a fair amount of monsters in the MM which cannot reliably overcome dr/magic, even at higher lvs. Look at beasties such as the pit fiend - it cannot penetrate dr/magic. NA is LA+1, stats are easily LA+2 by themselves (unbalanced), dr maybe LA+1, flight is not as useful by the time you get it, but still worth something, I would lump it together with freeze for LA+1. According to SS, having multiple natural attacks also warrants LA+1 (at least, but lets leave it at +1). Total LA of +6, 4 monstrous humanoid HD reduces this to roughly LA4.5...so I guess LA+5 is not unreasonable by the book, though it does seem somewhat overinflated. I guess a point could be made to further lower this value to LA+4, or perhaps even +3...:)
Zyrusticae 09-20-07, 08:29 PM	Wow, geeze. Is DR 10/magic really worth giving up a level of HD, saving throws, BAB, caster/manifester level, and class features? Is it really? I'm trying to wrap my head around this, here. I don't think any single feature is really worth a whole level of getting nothing else, as even if you become literally immune to physical attacks you're still vulnerable to all kinds of magic. Actually, this is a problem with LA in general. You're giving up, again, a HD, BAB, saving throws, caster/manifester level, and class features all in one blow, and whatever feature you get in its place must make up for it. Often, it doesn't. Each level of LA should be giving better and better benefits because, thanks to the brokenness that is spellcasting, casters always improve in an exponential manner, and the abilities have to reflect this improvement as well. Also, I despise the way they distribute ability scores. That's not balancing, that's pigeonholing. I mean, cripes. It's not balancing to give something a huge penalty to all mental stats and then give it a huge bonus to all physical stats. All you're gonna do is end up making sure every single member of that 'race' is a melee smasher! It's incredibly stupid! /rant
runestar 09-20-07, 11:58 PM	Also, I despise the way they distribute ability scores. That's not balancing, that's pigeonholing. I mean, cripes. It's not balancing to give something a huge penalty to all mental stats and then give it a huge bonus to all physical stats. All you're gonna do is end up making sure every single member of that 'race' is a melee smasher! It's incredibly stupid! Stupid perhaps, but it still does not deny the fact that even with pidgeon-holing, the race in question might still be very good at what it does. With this in mind, a fair LA must still be assigned such that it is no more or less powerful than the next best equivalent. Look at the centaur for example. At ECL of 6 and with its stats slanted the way they are, you are pretty much confined to the role of melee bruiser. But that does not mean that it sucks, since while you can only play it 1 way, it happens to really excel in that 1 aspect. Wow, geeze. Is DR 10/magic really worth giving up a level of HD, saving throws, BAB, caster/manifester level, and class features? Maybe it is. Maybe it is not. Who really knows...:P
Archangel_Tyrael 09-21-07, 12:02 AM	Actually, this is a problem with LA in general. You're giving up, again, a HD, BAB, saving throws, caster/manifester level, and class features all in one blow, and whatever feature you get in its place must make up for it. Often, it doesn't. Each level of LA should be giving better and better benefits because, thanks to the brokenness that is spellcasting, casters always improve in an exponential manner, and the abilities have to reflect this improvement as well. That's why no one plays a race with a level adjustment when they're making a spellcaster. Gargoyle is a "melee smash" character--not a Wizard or a Sorcerer (although without a penalty to Wisdom, they make serviceable Clerics). Also, I despise the way they distribute ability scores. That's not balancing, that's pigeonholing. I mean, cripes. It's not balancing to give something a huge penalty to all mental stats and then give it a huge bonus to all physical stats. All you're gonna do is end up making sure every single member of that 'race' is a melee smasher! It's incredibly stupid! Uh...what? Races in D&D are different. You can't just have every race be +0's across the board, that would be stupid.
dman11235 09-21-07, 12:36 AM	Certain races have certain preferences. Some races have no members of certain classes. Take the orc. You don't face many orc spell casters because Mr. McOrc here thinks "uh, me no understand magics, and me likey smashy. Hulk smash!" It's not always a part of their culture. The orc tribes generally include barbarians because they don't have the capacity to be fighters. A lot of races are "pigeonholed" because that's what that race tends to do. Not because of stats, but because of culture. Stats tend to reflect culture, not the other way around. At least, that how I see it.
Neutronium_Dragon 09-21-07, 03:10 AM	The gargoyle is not worth LA +5 or even +4. Those stat modifiers are maybe +2 in themselves, because on balance I'd rather have two levels in a decent combat class when you consider that I'm getting stuck with four relatively weak MH hit dice into the bargain. The +4 NA and DR pushes it up to LA +3 or thereabouts - but no higher. Those MH hit dice are too much of a sink to let them be worth more than that. At ECL 7 it might be worth playing.
dman11235 09-21-07, 01:10 PM	MH humanoid HD are probably the fourth best racial HD out there, right behind magical beast (not by much, just one HD step, but then again, they gain some proficiencies that mg. bst doesn't), outsider, and dragon. Possibly fey, you could make a case for it, but not likely. They get full BAB and okay HD, which is built for a melee. The stats reflect that. The massive con boost off-sets the HD penalty, or allows you to put higher numbers elsewhere. The strength boost and dex boost together scream barbarian, same with the int and cha penalty. And natural attacks. They always add to the LA. I always look at races that have natural weapons and wonder why the LA is so high,then I see that they ave natural weapons. But I do think that +5 is too much. It should be +4.
Zyrusticae 09-21-07, 01:53 PM	I'm not just talking about gargoyles. I'm talking about every single race with LA and racial HD. All of them suck at casting unless you use the variant that lets a character use racial HD to raise caster level, and even then they suck horribly compared to equivalent level casters thanks to a lack of spell slots. Of course, this is more an issue with the vancian spell system than RHD/LA itself, but it's still a problem. There's no reason that races should be pigeonholed into being completely nonproductive casters if they choose to become one. I can understand stupid races like orcs having such penalties, but centaurs? Pixies? Gimme a friggin' break!
Killydd 09-21-07, 04:40 PM	So you're really complaining that the game designers made some monster races, intended to be used by the DM, and these races aren't working well when used as not intended? yes, they are designed with specific roles in mind, and to make that role fairly evident when the DM flips through the books looking for NPC's. This of course makes other roles subpar for them. If you look through, you'll see several races that have racial spellcasting, either just through a low LA or by specifically giving them a "this monster casts spells as a 5th level sorceror" or whatever. dman: Also consider the reverse, that culture reflects stats. If a race is built to be good for something, the culture is going to emphasise that. A race that has wings isn't going to develop a land-based population center, it is going to set itself up where the flight can be used as an advantage over any possible invaders.
Zyrusticae 09-21-07, 04:44 PM	So you're really complaining that the game designers made some monster races, intended to be used by the DM, and these races aren't working well when used as not intended? Well, for instance, there's the case of Lizardfolk, whose favored racial class is Druid. Ironically, they suck at the role of druid because they're 3 levels behind everyone else in caster level, spell slots, shapeshifting, skill points, and their animal companion. Also, why don't half-dragons get bonus spell slots, if dragons do? I thought they were one of the most prominent sources of sorcerers! That's a pretty big screw-up, methinks. Either way, I just don't like the inflexibility of the system as it stands. Especially when it comes to skills (why is it that a monstrous character can only spend 1st level skill points on 'monstrous class skills'? Stupid, stupid!).
Archangel_Tyrael 09-21-07, 08:40 PM	Well, for instance, there's the case of Lizardfolk, whose favored racial class is Druid. Ironically, they suck at the role of druid because they're 3 levels behind everyone else in caster level, spell slots, shapeshifting, skill points, and their animal companion. It's all about balance. How balanced would it be for two PCs who wanted to play Druids to pick Halfling and Lizardfolk as their races and to ignore Racial Hit Dice and Level Adjustment? Also, why don't half-dragons get bonus spell slots, if dragons do? I thought they were one of the most prominent sources of sorcerers! That's a pretty big screw-up, methinks. Because half-dragon is already considered one of the best templates for cost vs. benefits--although giving them +1 level spellcasting is...intriguing. Either way, I just don't like the inflexibility of the system as it stands. Especially when it comes to skills (why is it that a monstrous character can only spend 1st level skill points on 'monstrous class skills'? Stupid, stupid!). You lost me on this one. You get Skill Points at every hit dice, no matter what that hit dice is. This (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm) is the page I use the most in the entire SRD. I advance almost all the monsters my PCs fight just because I like a lot of the lower level monsters and I want them to be viable threats to the party. As you can see under "Features", monstrous hit dice give you skills points at each hit dice.
Callix 09-21-07, 08:49 PM	You lost me on this one. You get Skill Points at every hit dice, no matter what that hit dice is. This (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm) is the page I use the most in the entire SRD. I advance almost all the monsters my PCs fight just because I like a lot of the lower level monsters and I want them to be viable threats to the party. As you can see under "Features", monstrous hit dice give you skills points at each hit dice. Monstrous HD have preset class skills, which are often very different from the skills relevant to a suitable class. For example, Jump, Climb and Survival are very common, whereas Use Magic Device, Bluff, Sense Motive and Diplomacy are almost always lacking. This means that a monstrous character is a poor liar, almost regardless of their description.
Archangel_Tyrael 09-21-07, 08:52 PM	Monstrous HD have preset class skills, which are often very different from the skills relevant to a suitable class. For example, Jump, Climb and Survival are very common, whereas Use Magic Device, Bluff, Sense Motive and Diplomacy are almost always lacking. This means that a monstrous character is a poor liar, almost regardless of their description. Ahhh! That's what he meant. Thank you. And yes, Monstrous racial skills usually suck. The page I linked doesn't actually have the "class skills" of the racial hit dice, does anyone know where those are at? I know I've looked for them before and I don't think I've ever found them.
Zyrusticae 09-21-07, 08:55 PM	It's all about balance. How balanced would it be for two PCs who wanted to play Druids to pick Halfling and Lizardfolk as their races and to ignore Racial Hit Dice and Level Adjustment? I never said you should ignore racial hit dice and level adjustment. I just think you should eventually be able to negate both somewhere down the line, because eventually there's a point where the extra natural armor is heavily outweighed by the benefits of extra spell slots/class features. Being several levels behind the others permanently isn't 'balance' -- it's gimping. The page I linked doesn't actually have the "class skills" of the racial hit dice, does anyone know where those are at? I know I've looked for them before and I don't think I've ever found them. They're listed with the individual monster entries.
Istaran 09-21-07, 09:47 PM	They're listed with the individual monster entries. Normally any skill listed in a monster's entry under skills is a class skill for that monster (even if they don't have ranks in it by default). True dragons are a special case: the beginning of the section on true dragons lists a good number of skills that are class skills for all true dragons, and the individual colors have lists of additional class skills.
runestar 09-21-07, 10:43 PM	I never said you should ignore racial hit dice and level adjustment. I just think you should eventually be able to negate both somewhere down the line, because eventually there's a point where the extra natural armor is heavily outweighed by the benefits of extra spell slots/class features. Being several levels behind the others permanently isn't 'balance' -- it's gimping. The easiest solution is simply to then not play the monster race, if you are unwilling to give up class features for race benefits. They get special abilities over and above what sundry races get. While you might argue that these benefits become less useful as they lv, it is still an additional benefit nonetheless, and certainly not one which can simply be written off like that just because you feel it is "less useful" all of a sudden. For example, a lizardfolk's +5NA will always be useful for a fighter, regardless of what level you are. If you could negate both eventually, say at epic lvs, then no one would play a human in epic when they could choose mechanically superior races such as lizardfolk at no additional cost.
Zyrusticae 09-22-07, 12:35 AM	Tch... It's an issue of balance, like I said, not that I don't want to give up class features for extra stuff. There's obviously going to be a cost even if you can negate the RHD and LA entirely. Frankly, the power of an extra 8th or 9th level spell far outweighs most, if not all, of the benefits conferred upon by one's race. I don't see why one can't simply find an easy solution like allowing 1/2 of a character's racial HD to count towards spell slots or somesuch. It's not like said character's gonna break anything with an extra first level spell, and it just keeps the character from falling too far behind at higher levels. And I get really tired of people going 'it's good for fighters!'. Fighters are the most gimped class in the game. Almost anything is good for them. If they advanced anywhere close to the level of most spellcasters it'd suck just as much for them, too. (And for the record, I already do avoid the LA/Racial HD problem entirely by simply using a fellow forum-goer's homebrew races (http://forums.gleemax.com/leaving.php?destination=http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php%3Ft%3D596634).)
runestar 09-22-07, 01:44 AM	Practically any race with an LA will be bad for spellcasters. This is not so much a matter of balance, but rather a problem with the concept of LA. Nor do I see why a powerful race with the same number of wizard lvs as a LA+0 race. For example, a centaur cleric5 should have the same spellcasting capabilities as a human cleric5. I don't see how the former's racial HD might aid in its spellcasting, when they are simply a measure of how tough he naturally is.:confused: (And for the record, I already do avoid the LA/Racial HD problem entirely by simply using a fellow forum-goer's homebrew races.) Good for you.
Zyrusticae 09-22-07, 02:24 AM	Why? Well, why not? Said character has to somehow be on-par with characters its level, and that's just one way to make sure of it. They're already having to start with higher-level characters if they're gonna party up with LA+0 races, anyway. At those levels, low-level spells are generally not going to make much of a difference, if any. Note that I said RHD / 2, not RHD+LA. A centaur cleric 1 would be casting as a Cleric 3 in this instance, despite an ECL of 7. Nowhere near the level of a Cleric 7. I find it to make plenty of sense in this context. If a character was spending its whole life mastering wizardly arts or somesuch, why shouldn't they get something for all those RHD that apparently had absolutely nothing to do with it?
Neutronium_Dragon 09-22-07, 02:47 AM	> MH humanoid HD are probably the fourth best racial HD out there, Take a ranger. Remove all class features. Reduce the skill points to 2/level instead of 6/level. Swap one good save. There's your MH hit die. Even if it's "fourth best", that still leaves it solidly in "awful" territory.
runestar 09-22-07, 03:02 AM	Why? Well, why not? Said character has to somehow be on-par with characters its level, and that's just one way to make sure of it. They're already having to start with higher-level characters if they're gonna party up with LA+0 races, anyway. At those levels, low-level spells are generally not going to make much of a difference, if any. Probably because I like internal consistency, among other things. If it is not applicable to monsters as npcs, than it should not apply to monsters as PCs either. But then again, monster npcs have the unfair advantage of treating spellcasting classes as non-associated. For example, you might be right in that a centaur cleric5 casting as a cleric7 might give it that little extra boost, but I still don't see how or why those racial HD might improve its spellcasting. A centaur cleric5 npc still casts as a cleric 5, why should the PC variant be any different? 2nd, it might perhaps make a little sense in a game-balance POV, but it just does not make sense mechanicswise. It also seems quite inelegant in that you are just arbitrarily changing its stats here and there to suit your definition of "balanced", even if you might be correct.
Zyrusticae 09-22-07, 10:17 AM	It makes sense to me because the Racial HD represent something beyond that of normal PCs. They either get more training or simply have some talent above that of other characters. Mind you, 'other characters' is completely relative, in this case - said character will still be, at most, 5 levels behind any other spellcasting character, and at the least (after buying off LA), 2 levels behind (which is still a huge gap when it comes to spellcasting). When you pick up your first class level, it is already assumed that you've been practicing it most of your life. Racial HD may simply be an extension of that. Of course, you can simply solve this entirely by using racial classes instead of LA and racial HD, because then the character is actually advancing and not starting with an arbitrary amount of extra HD that absolutely suck at everything.
runestar 09-22-07, 09:51 PM	Of course, you can simply solve this entirely by using racial classes instead of LA and racial HD, because then the character is actually advancing and not starting with an arbitrary amount of extra HD that absolutely suck at everything. By racial classes, I assume you mean savage progressions. Note that I believe that they do not make sense. Your racial class simply represents how you grow from an infant to your current stage. Breaking it down into the equivalent of class lvs is a very bad move flavourwise (why should adventuring for a few months allow a centaur to reach adulthood, when it takes a normal centaur a few decades to do so?) However, it is by far the only way of allowing you to play powerful races from 1st lv onwards, and compared with the alternative (not playing them until you have reached the appropriate ECL), a sucky solution is better than no solution.:) Basically, when you would advance, it simply represents you growing, rather than the result of any sort of training.
ragoftag 09-23-07, 09:23 AM	Love this Thread! I want all the input we can muster on this subject! runestar Look at beasties such as the pit fiend - it cannot penetrate dr/magic. The best way to deal with this is to give the PF a magic weapon as part of his/her loot. Such a BA would have long ago covered his most obvious flaw. Zyrusticae I thought they were one of the most prominent sources of sorcerers! That's a pretty big screw-up, methinks. Agreed, but I see this as a 'deadline' issue. A lot of detail shows rough edges and needs polish and trimming. With the sheer task of trying to get the whole thing out, periphery details will always get overlooked. With several score of 'legacy' races to shoehorn in, the authors WILL overlook things that rabid fanboys (us) will spot. And we have the luxury of this glorious forum to nitpick and jaw to or hearts' content. Personally, I have not read a single Jack Vance novel I didn't enjoy, but my world uses spell points. I see LA as a horridly imperfect solution to an impossible 'knot' and try to use Racial Levels rather than monster levels or LA. Perhaps Alexander will show up and prove us all dummies with a single blow, but for right now, I'm taking your point to heart and counting 'Dragon' levels for casting levels as well. Callix This means that a monstrous character is a poor liar, almost regardless of their description. Great Point! And Thx, I shall have to modify those lists for my game. Seriously, a GM must correct errors made by the publishers who failed to properly investigate the GM's world and tailor game features properly. Indeed, 'blanket' systems often fail to handle the little details important to all customers, just try finding a small publisher's monogram on proper Bonsai potting at Walmart! Just let you players know that some of your goblins breathe fire! hehe (5' range, counts as non-proficient, D6 damage with a DC of 10 + half BAB) And back to: runestar I don't see how the former's racial HD might aid in its spellcasting, when they are simply a measure of how tough he naturally is. Basically, when you would advance, it simply represents you growing, rather than the result of any sort of training. You may have hit upon the crux of the discussion, namely: Should all 'monstrous levels' be the same? The beauty of the racial substitution levels to Classes is that they focus on that Race's unique qualities! Could we differentiate a 'melee' race from a 'caster' race in a similar vein? SS broke the LA '+' into a 'level system' with meat cleaver accuracy without ever addressing what the 'monster manual entry' of the target race is. Assume that an X creature as an encounter is the typical member of the whole. If it has its 'racial levels' already, they are already figured into its entry. If I undertake playing an X, I have already 1) done those levels and should be brought into line with the other players via LA-ish rules, or 2) need to do those levels and am lacking in one or more details from true adult, 'monster manual entry', status (read: first level). If true status includes spell casting ability, that might be docked until I get that 'racial level' out of the way. The race 'starts' with a NA of 8? Stage it down by bits. I personally prefer making each of these levels the equivalent of Class levels. I also view these posts from an acceptance of the superiority of HypertextD20 spell points over any Vancian system, if that makes any difference. And 'No, I have not had my medication this morning!'
ToastedAmphibian 09-25-07, 09:17 PM	Zyrusticae, this is the second thread today that ive seen you single-handedly de-rail with your general LA hatred. (This one and one on lizardmen) I cant say that anyone else feels the same as i do on this, but personally I would rather see you start a new thread for this, one dedicated to discussing the pros and/or cons of the LA system as a whole, instead of having you repeat your sentiments in every thread that deals with a race with a level adjustment. Judgeing by the number of replies you have gotten in these threads, i think such a topic would garner a descent amount of attention and allow you to share your feelings to your hearts content and with a much larger and more interested audience. If you have any respone you would like to make to my request, please send it in a private message or in a new thread, as my post has as little to do with what the LA for a gargoyle should be as yours do.
Zyrusticae 09-26-07, 12:04 PM	I don't see how it is as off-topic as any other post in this thread. The thread specifically asks 'Did they get a little out of hand with the LA's in 3.5?', and my answer is 'yes', and I like to back up my opinion. The thread's title does not say 'did they get a little out of hand with the LA's for Gargoyles?'. Besides, if you're going to rail on someone for going off-topic, there are plenty of other threads out there that are much worse off than this one. It's to be expected. (Plus, you're not a moderator and should not deign to take on the task of a moderator, if you'd be so kind.)
Novem 09-26-07, 12:46 PM	I have a suggestion for LA: replace level adjustment with racial hit die. They will still have an ECL, but now they are more like a regular PC- the stat bonuses and what have you are simply class features. I also agree, LAs in this game are rediculous- I understand where they come from, and why it makes sense- but they've been poorly executed from the start.
dndfencer 09-26-07, 01:11 PM	I've got to say that the whole LA system and racial HD thing is quite annoying. A lot of great creatures get underpowered because one not only has to take a lot of HD but then has to take some LA too. Either racial HD needs to go down or LA does gargoyle is just a good example. Their ability scores are hardly optimum (with little room for cheese), their abilities are quite nice and they get a lot of buffs (like DR) but hardly invincible. All in all, i wouldn't dole out 8-9 levels just for that. 6-7 seems a lot more reasonable because they provide some good defence and an okay offence.
realAkuma1988 09-26-07, 03:31 PM	I have a suggestion for LA: replace level adjustment with racial hit die. They will still have an ECL, but now they are more like a regular PC- the stat bonuses and what have you are simply class features. I also agree, LAs in this game are rediculous- I understand where they come from, and why it makes sense- but they've been poorly executed from the start. My DM fuond the easiest thing to do is just take the LA and add half the racial hit die and it seems to work.I think that lowers the Gargoyle to ECL 4 but 3 seems more appropriate.
ToastedAmphibian 09-26-07, 04:07 PM	My DM fuond the easiest thing to do is just take the LA and add half the racial hit die and it seems to work.I think that lowers the Gargoyle to ECL 4 but 3 seems more appropriate. ?? 5+(4/2)=4??? As far as i can tell, your dms system lowers their ECL to 7 (Before any class levels)
runestar 09-26-07, 09:24 PM	The best way to deal with this is to give the PF a magic weapon as part of his/her loot. Such a BA would have long ago covered his most obvious flaw. Fair enough, I suppose a pit fiend could be given an amulet of mighty fists. But there are monsters whose treasure guidelines do not allow them to own magic weapons, or they are unable to use them. Besides, if you're going to rail on someone for going off-topic, there are plenty of other threads out there that are much worse off than this one. It's to be expected. (Plus, you're not a moderator and should not deign to take on the task of a moderator, if you'd be so kind.) To be fair, just because there are worse offenders than you does not absolve your guilt in said matter (assuming you were indeed guilty of such an infraction). It is a common misdirection tactic, but a fallacious one nonetheless.:)
concerro 09-26-07, 10:03 PM	Did not read all the post so dont kill me if I repeat: The LA is right for most races. The problem is that racial HD also count as class levels when determing the total ECL. Minotaurs are about right, but for other monsters they are off. The problem is that to find the correct ECL for every monster they would have to playtest every monster, and they could use that time to do other things for D&D since most players don't get to play monsters anyway. The only answer they could come up with is to make a formula to determine what the ECL would be. I personally think that to get the correct ECL you should keep the LA, and ask your DM to come up with an ECL if he has time. As for the gargoyle the stats are awesome. It can fly. It has darkvision 60, and natural armor +4, and DR. The LA could be high end 4 or a low end 5. I would probably make it an ECL 7 or 8. After you give him some magic weapons, and armor he is a capable right or rogue.
runestar 09-26-07, 11:29 PM	There is also another problem - certain abilities are worth different values at different lvs. For example, flight at 1st lv is powerful, and easily worth LA+2. But at higher lvs, when you have ready access to magic, it is not as useful, and may not even be worth LA+1. In this case, how then would you assign a single "fair" value to said ability? Make it too low, and you unfairly subsidize low-lv play. Make it high to balance out play at low lvs, and you screw higher lv play. LA buyoff or the option to swap out LA at higher lvs for class lvs?:confused:
concerro 09-27-07, 01:37 AM	There is also another problem - certain abilities are worth different values at different lvs. For example, flight at 1st lv is powerful, and easily worth LA+2. But at higher lvs, when you have ready access to magic, it is not as useful, and may not even be worth LA+1. In this case, how then would you assign a single "fair" value to said ability? Make it too low, and you unfairly subsidize low-lv play. Make it high to balance out play at low lvs, and you screw higher lv play. LA buyoff or the option to swap out LA at higher lvs for class lvs?:confused: Flying means that only casters, and archers who normally don't hit that hard anyway can hit you, and you don't have to depend on a magic item. Most people even at higher levels don't use fly even though it is available, and it is very useful if you know how to use it. The level buy-off in unearthed arcana .makes it less painful
Kurama Youko 09-27-07, 09:07 AM	to me its as simple as this, even with all the abilities that gargoyles for example get. It would just have made more sense if not atleast played out better if said race had no LA but instead the assumed LA was just extra Monster Hit Dice. That's all what it really comes down to for me. I mean, like someone said. Monsterous Humanoid hit Dice give Full BAB, 2 good saves and d8 hit dice. I think they get 2+int mod for skill points to, im not 100% sure I'd have to look it up, with the ruling that you have to finish a monsterous class progression before entering a normal class or prestige class to me this balances it out more. Those 5 extra levels of Monsterous hit dice don't offer powerful class features like normal classes do, but they do offer me hit points, saves, skills, and feats. Things needed so as to back up the idea that he is a fighter or can do his fighter role. This works for fighter and possibly rogue/strike types, but it fails for Spellcasters. However thats the lesser of two evils, and can be accepted. You have powerful racial abilities take took time for you to fully develope at the expense of studying magic of some type. I can live with that. It just becomes that I will more than likely not try and play a spellcaster or look for a prestige class that offers some minor spellcasting. (like a ur-priest or divine crusader.) So the real question is. Would a 9 Hit Dice Gargoyle (no class levels) be balanced in a party 9th level characters who are made up of 0LA races and who are using standard classes/prestige classes? Of course this also means the advancements for monsters get pushed up furthere so that a gargoyle player doesn't come in as a large creature with adjusted stats for increasing size. My idea put mean that a Gargoyle would become large at 12-17 hit dice.
Kurama Youko 09-27-07, 09:16 AM	let's look at another example. What if it was a Nymph someone wanted to play. Nymph's can prepare and cast druids spells as a 7th lv druid I believe and they have a LA+7 and 6 Racial Hit Dice. Using my idea (one i think others are coming to as well.) they instead are 13 fey hit dice, racial abilities are spread out over those 13 hit dice, spellcasting starts from 1st to 7th hit dice. When the monster progression is done, should a Nymph enter the Druid class the spellcasting from the druid stacks with her nymph spellcasting (this was some what mentioned in the FAQ's.) So yes, your behind by 6 druid caster levels, but hey you still had some spellcasting prior to druid entry. Somethings better than nothing. With things like practice spellcaster, you can atleast mitigate some of the pain felt to your caster levels. Arguably after 8th or 9th hit dice your spells will be better served as buffer/healing spells.
Kurama Youko 09-27-07, 09:35 AM	What about templates though? Well similiar idea. Vampires for example, (this idea ignores the rule on some templates to not changing certain aspects post templating a creature.) This vampire human named bob, would basically gain 8 undead hit dice (which I believe means he gaind 8d12 hit dice no con bonus, 1/2 bab, good will saves, skill points equal to 4+int modifier with quadruple at first lv if it has a intelligent score.. if it doesn't no feats or skill points are gained).. this would basically replace a humans racial hit dice, while still allowing him to keep the human traits of 1 extra feat and extra skill points per level (unless when he became undead he lost his intelligence and it became a 0, in which case like above he would lose those abilities.) he gains all the abilities and flaws of a vampire and is a ECL 8 PC. No LA. I don't know if that sounds fair to everyone else but it sounds fine to me. I mean so long as we now break down as to what abilities he gains over those 8 hit dice we can now even introduce him at 1st lv. Templates are harder to explain in some case, but only when you want to add them to creatures that already have monster class progression in this manner. Like the Gargoyle who wants to add the half blue dragon template to itself... I guess you could say, certain aspects change right away, such as the hit dice for gargoyles increasing by one such as the rule is mentioned under the half dragon template, also the type would change right away, skill point calculations would change along with the ruling for that under the template. However template abilities and stat modifiers come after the monster progression as well as the extra hit dice from the template itself (those extra hit dice being 3 which represent the assumed LA.)
deathbane 09-27-07, 12:59 PM	This works for fighter and possibly rogue/strike types, but it fails for Spellcasters. However thats the lesser of two evils, and can be accepted. You have powerful racial abilities take took time for you to fully developed at the expense of studying magic of some type. I can live with that. That is ok as a house rule, but not for an official rule because it favors meleers alll the time. Undead have a 1/2 BAB progression so vampires will be terrible at level 8. They can't cast spells and even with the improved strength and dex they most likely wont hit anything. I don't think a hard rule will ever work for ECL. Some monsters are unplayable, and others are better off using the getting the monster's abilities over a period of time as if they were classes. Some you can just say the ECL is 7 instead of 10. Some of them would be better with a scaling(down) ECL as some abilities become less useful at higher levels, but some abilities while they are not used a lot are very helpful when they do come up so the campaign would determine the worth of that ability. It is to hard to make a completely fair rule. I normally just give my players an adjusted ECL, allow them to use UA's buyoff, and they can decide to take it of leave it. I do try to find ECL(the real one's) when I have time, but it is hard for me to go to work, go to school, plan an adventure, and playtest monsters. I would let them do it, but I only trust 2 of them to not try to get over.
3lv3s_R_43vr 09-27-07, 01:47 PM	unrealistic options and heavy powers deserve low levels. At least at first. Characters w/ la usually have racial hit dice (for a reason) or sick abilities that would definately overpower one, even if you dropped just a racial hit dice or something, it could potentially break the game. The level adjustments are there for a logical reason. But if it's your game, do whatever you want lawise. After all, rule 0 and yaddayadda.