Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Light_Colonel 02-06-07, 02:25 AM	So I was toying around with the idea of making an anthropamorphic Deinonychus. Here is the stats I come up with: ANTHROPAMORPHIC RAPTOR Medium Monstrous Humanoid Hit Dice: 2d8+8 (17 hp) Initiative: +3 Speed: 60 ft. (12 squares) Armor Class: 15 (+2 Dex, +3 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 13 Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+2 Attack: Talons +2 melee (2d4) Full Attack: Talons +2 melee (2d4) and 2 foreclaws -3 melee (1d2) and bite -3 melee (1d6) Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: Pounce Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent, darkvision Saves: Fort +2, Ref +6, Will +5 Abilities: Str 11, Dex 17, Con 15, Int 11, Wis 14, Cha 14 Skills: Hide +15, Jump +12, Listen +14, Spot +14, Survival +14 Feats: Track(B) Environment: Warm forests Level Adjustment: +4 Pounce (Ex): If a raptor charges, it can make a full attack. Skills: A raptor has a +8 racial bonus on Hide, Jump, Listen, Spot, and Survival checks. Now, my question is, does that look right at LA +4? Also, yes I know I am giving him Track as a bonus feat, but honestly even with the bonuses it looks a little weak. Obviously the stats are good as are the skill bonuses -- not being able to use boots or gloves will suck though. So what do you think? Sound reasonable enough? Higher ECL? Lower?
okaynowa 02-06-07, 08:52 AM	At a glance, a 2 HD race with an LA of +4 (ECL 6) will get killed rather quickly when it faces the typical CR 4-6 opponent. If I as a DM were to allow an anthro-raptor in my campaign (not inconceivable for the Talenta Plains in Eberron), I'd make the following changes: Get rid of the racial hit dice. Class levels will be easier to adjudicate. Lower the base speed to 40. That's still significantly faster than any other core race, and you can always raise it later through racial feats. Reduce the claw damage to 1d4. With two natural attacks at full base attack bonus, you could even drop it to 1d3 and the anthro-raptor would still be attractive to a Sneak Attacking rogue. Personally, I'd also remove the bite attack as a basic feature and bring it back as a feat. Lower the natural armor bonus to +1, or drop it altogether. This race is an excellent ambusher-- making it a tank as well is a bit much. Low-light vision, darkvision, and scent are a potent package. Pick low-light or darkvision (the former is probably more appropriate), and give up scent until later. Give it a modest set of ability adjustments (old fashioned +2/-2). Just to mess with rogues, you could make it +2 Con, -2 Int. Tone the skill bonuses down to +2 Spot, +2 Hide (+4 when wearing light or no armor in its native environment), +2 or +4 to Jump. Keep in mind that with a base speed of 40, the anthro-raptor already has a +4 to Jump checks without a racial bonus. Pouncing is a pretty powerful ability, especially if the anthro-raptor starts tacking on Sneak Attack dice. If you keep it, be aware of the dangers. Or... you could trade it for a cheetah-like charge (1/hour, move 10x base speed when making a charge). That'd be pretty keen, but more appropriate for a savannah hunter than a forest ambusher. In exchange for all it's giving up, let the anthro-raptor use armor, tools, and equipment (but not boots) like a regular character. Now, I say all that with the idea in mind that Level Adjustment is bad, and the more an anthro-raptor resembles standard races the easier it will be for me and my players to adjudicate. If you're going for something a little less raptor-man and a little more talking-raptor, you probably won't like these suggestions. To make the more monstrous anthro-raptor survivable, I'd advise pumping up the Hit Dice to about 4 and reducing the LA to maybe +2. I'm not sure what a fair LA would be, but an LA twice the creature's base Hit Dice it ain't. One bad round against a pair of CR 3 foes would be all it takes to run 2d8+Con bonus hit points. It'd be fun to see one in action-- though I imagine the Bob Peck impersonations would be pretty relentless.
runestar 02-06-07, 09:10 AM	Usually, anything with the word "anthro..." can't be good(in a munchkin sense), but I think yours sets the precedent for actually being too weak. With its sucky stats and inability to use weapons, I think it can be allowed at LA+1 or +2.:)
zae 02-06-07, 10:01 AM	Usually, anything with the word "anthro..." can't be good(in a munchkin sense), but I think yours sets the precedent for actually being too weak. With its sucky stats and inability to use weapons, I think it can be allowed at LA+1 or +2.:) Oh be fair, plenty of the anthro races suck - it's just that people only choose the Baleen Whale and the Giant Squid. Actually, that section seems rather poorly edited - many of the animals have the wrong ability scores etc. (the vipers are mixed up with larger vipers being weaker than smaller ones, for instance). Anyway, I'd call that a +1 or +2, yeah. It needs to be able to survive, and seeing as it's going to mostly be leaping at people and trying to stab them to death...
enygmatic_me 02-06-07, 04:02 PM	The way it is stated up this looks like it should be in the Monster's Laire (http://boards1.wizards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=25). Honestly, with it's low AC and HP, this thing is not really a challenge for it's level Adjustment. +6 Dex, +4 Con, +4 Wis, +4 Cha. They are nice. Worth a LA+1. okaynowa has the right idea. Drop the racial HD to start off with and then working on balancing will be a more fluid process. This does make me wonder why WotC hasn't made an official 3.5 update to the Saurials beyond what appeared in Dragon a few years back.
Light_Colonel 02-06-07, 11:32 PM	If you're going for something a little less raptor-man and a little more talking-raptor, you probably won't like these suggestions. Yeah, I am looking more for a talking raptor than a raptor man. Thank you very much for your insights though. I was just starting with the RAW anthro+deinonychus to begin with. Usually, anything with the word "anthro..." can't be good(in a munchkin sense), but I think yours sets the precedent for actually being too weak. With its sucky stats and inability to use weapons, I think it can be allowed at LA+1 or +2. Anyway, I'd call that a +1 or +2, yeah. It needs to be able to survive, and seeing as it's going to mostly be leaping at people and trying to stab them to death... Are you guys serious? runestar I got the impression was kidding about the +1 or +2; In looking over other monsters of similar EL's, I could see it *maybe* being +3, no way +1 or +2 though. It "feels" right at LA +4, since it seems pretty much on par with the Pixie. +6 Dex, +4 Con, +4 Wis, +4 Cha. They are nice. Worth a LA+1. okaynowa has the right idea. Drop the racial HD to start off with and then working on balancing will be a more fluid process. As I said above, I just started with RAW anthro-raptor (with the bonus of Track feat because I think it is stupid that the anthro template takes away all feats except weapon finesse) and am now tweaking it. I should note that I am trying to make this as legitimate and fair as possible as I am the one who wants to play the talking raptor as a character, so I need to sell my DM on this and not feel like I am conning him into letting me play a broken character. (The broken part can come later in already published feats, skills and whatnot :D ) I am heavily leaning toward having him be a Wilderness Rogue, Scout or Ranger.
zae 02-07-07, 01:13 AM	Understand that if you die because of your LA, you can't do anything you're meant to be good at - a dead fighter can't make attacks, a dead wizard can't cast spells. Unless you follow the RAW stupidly close, where being dead doesn't actually affect the way you act in the slightest. Because of this, you basically need to determine the maximum possible LA to survive with. If you still think it's too good, then add additional racial hit dice instead. Also, if you're comparing it to other things with WotC Level Adjustments, there's another problem right there: The majority are just terrible. Compare it to a human with Ranger levels, and figure out the rough level where it'd be more or less the same. That determines the total ECL, it's then your job to figure out how much of that should be in Adjustment, and how much in racial hit dice.
runestar 02-07-07, 01:24 AM	Your race is ECL6 before any class lvs. Place it side by side with a barb6 or fighter6. Do you seriously seriously see your creation being on par with them? :confused:
okaynowa 02-07-07, 08:35 AM	What level character is your DM letting you make? First level? Sixth? If we know the level of the rest of your party, we have a benchmark for assigning abilities.I am heavily leaning toward having him be a Wilderness Rogue, Scout or Ranger.Which is precisely why you have to be careful with a race that is tailor-made for those classes. Rogues, scouts, and rangers are already fast, stealthy, special attackers. The synergy between Sneak Attack and natural weapons, between a high base speed and the scout class, between Scent and a ranger is what threatens to put this character over the top. Racial bonuses to all of his class skills are like gilding the lily, and natural armor for light armor classes negates the drawbacks. Try reverse engineering. If the rest of your party is 6th level, start off by making a human (or elven, or whatever) 6th level scout (or ranger, or rogue). Standard ability rolls, regular feat selection, all that. Then, go in and start swapping out racial features. Drop the human feat and skill points, add the raptoran base speed and racial skill bonuses. Drop the ability to wear boots, add the raptoran claw attack(s). When it starts to look like the next thing you're going to add is over the top, either don't add it, add it as a feat, or trade in a level of your adventuring class (which will and should hurt). If you can workshop it with your DM, even better. It can't hurt to let the final arbiter in the matter see the effort you're making to be fair.
Light_Colonel 02-07-07, 11:56 PM	Novaraptor, 1st-Level Warrior Medium Monstrous Humanoid Hit Dice: 1d8+3 (7 hp) Initiative: +3 Speed: 60 ft. (12 squares) Armor Class: 19 (+3 Dex, +3 natural, +3 studded leather), touch 13, flat-footed 16 Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+2 Attack: Talons +2 melee (2d4+1) Full Attack: Talons +2 melee (2d4+1) and 2 foreclaws +0 melee (1d2+1) and bite +0 melee (1d4+1) Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: Pounce Special Qualities: Novaraptor traits Saves: Fort +5, Ref +3, Will -1 Abilities: Str 13, Dex 17, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 8 Skills: Hide +6, Intimidate +5*, Jump +10, Listen +3, Move Silently +2, Spot +3, Survival +3 Feats: Track(B), Multiattack Environment: Warm forests Organization: Solitary, Pack (2-5), Gathering (10-20 plus 2 3rd-level sergeants and 1 leader of 3rd–6th level), Tribe (30-100 plus 30% noncombatants plus 1 3rd-level sergeant per 10 adults, 5 5th-level lieutenants, and 3 7th-level captains) Challenge Rating: 1 Alignment: Often neutral evil Level Adjustment: +2 Pounce (Ex): If a novaraptor charges, it can make a full attack. Skills: A novaraptor has a +4 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, Spot, and Survival checks. It also receives a +6 racial bonus on Jump checks. The skill block reflects the armor check penalty of -1 for the studded leather armor and the +2 Intimidate for it's Frightful Display ability. Heightened Senses: Novaraptors have low-light vision, darkvision (60 feet) and scent. Dietary Requirements: A novaraptor can only eat freshly killed (1 day or less), raw meat. Rations and magically created foods do not sate the novaraptors hunger, nor does cooked meat. Novaraptors also begin to feel the effects of starvation much sooner than humans, only being able to go without feeding for 1 day before the standard penalties for starvation begin to affect them. This may also cause them to fly into a feeding frenzy. (see below) Feeding Frenzy: A novaraptor that is suffering starvation becomes increasingly irratable (-4 on CHA based skills and checks) and when in combat with a foe that the novaraptor has dealt at least 1 hp of damage, the novaraptor must make a Will Save (DC 10+total amount of subdual damage from starvation) or fly into a feeding frenzy, slashing and biting madly at it's opponent until either it or it's opponent are dead. While in a frenzy against that opponent, the novaraptor may not attack a different target or break off combat. If the novaraptor kills the opponent (or renders it unconcious) and no other foes are attacking it, the novaraptor must immediately stop and feed on the fallen enemy for 1d6 rounds before the hunger fades enough for the novaraptor to regain it's senses. Feeding is a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity. Each round the novaraptor feeds heals it 1 hp of subdual damage caused by starvation. Should the novaraptor happen to feed on an unconcious or otherwise helpless subject, treat this as a Coup de gras. Strong Stomach(Ex): Because novaraptors feed on raw carrion they are naturally more resistant to toxins and diseases found in fresh kills. This gives the novaraptor a +4 competance bonus on Fortitude Saves against natural, non-magical ingested diseases and poisons. Limited Item Space: Novaraptors find difficulty in using most equipment for humanoids because of their hunched posture and body proportion. They may wear normal armor which consists of only torso only protection without difficulty. For armor that protects the entire body, the novaraptor must pay twice the cost as though it were a large creature to get custom fitted armor. Novaraptors may not wear boots and are considered to not have a "boots" item slot. They may choose to select the feat "Extra Item Space" from Savage Species to gain a "tail" item slot, which is considered to have the same item slot affinity as boot items, though the item will still have to be custom made. A novaraptor wearing normal gloves or gauntledts loses it's foreclaw attacks. A novaraptor may wear gloves which are described as being fingerless or which the fingers have been removed and still retain it's foreclaw attacks, in the case of most magic items though, they will need to be custom made. Frightful Display(Ex): A novaraptor's head has a crested frill which it often flares when it is frightened or angry. When not wearing a helmet or other items which could interfere with it's crest, it may flare it's crest and hiss menacingly as a free action as part of an Intimidate check giving it a +2 circumstance bonus on the check. Dinosaur Heritage: Novaraptors are very closely related to deinoychus and as such they count as dinosaurs for the purposes of special abilities that specifically affect dinosaurs. Because of their savage nature, Druids and Rangers may use their Wild Empathy Ability on Novaraptors in place of their Diplomacy check, if they wish with no penalty. Novaraptor characters possess the following racial traits. +6 Dexterity, +4 Constitution. A novaraptor’s base land speed is 60 feet. Skills: Novaraptors have a +4 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, Spot, and Survival checks. They also receive a +6 racial bonus on Jump checks. Racial Feats: A novaraptor receives Track as a bonus feat. +3 natural armor bonus. Special Attacks (see above): Pounce. Special Qualities (see above): Novaraptor traits. Automatic Languages: Draconic. Bonus Languages: Common, Sylvan, Goblin. Favored Class: Scout. Level adjustment +2. The novaraptor warrior presented here had the following ability scores before racial adjustments: Str 13, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 8. Ok, I have revised the whole thing pretty much. Most of the essence is still there, but this looks a little more playable and has a lot more definitions. The drawbacks I have added look pretty good as they can easily become a problem in bad situations, but are not so hindering as to make it unplayable. I also reduced the stat bonuses, skill bonuses and reduced the bite damage. So, thoughts? I think it looks pretty solid so far. It is fairly strong when it can get the jump on someone, but in a prolonged fight I think the equivalent 3rd level character would take it. What level character is your DM letting you make? First level? Sixth? If we know the level of the rest of your party, we have a benchmark for assigning abilities. I think they will be around 10th or so when I join. Somewhere between 9th and 11th would be my guess. (I am moving back to my hometown and the group I am getting back into is I think 7th or 8th right now so by the time I get there...)
winged_avenger 02-08-07, 12:54 AM	Does your raptor have feathers? Can it have a catchphrase like "All Done!"?
enygmatic_me 02-08-07, 02:36 AM	I used a more player race style format and made a couple of modifications that are more inline with the modifiers a race usually gets. Very little has been altered from what I can tell though, mostly minor changes to some numbers and defined the features a little more. Left most of the flavor for you to fill in. What do you think? " insert flavor blurb here”. Personality: Physical Description: Gender Base Height Height Modifier Base Weight Weight Modifier Male Female Relations: Alignment: Homeland Religion: Language and Common. Bonus Languages: Names: Male Names: Female Names: Family Names: Adventure: - Racial Traits +2 Strength, +6 Dexterity, +4 Constitution, +0 Intelligence, -2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma Pounce (Ex): If the Novaraptor charges it may still make a full attack action. Powerful Legs (Ex): The Novaraptor has greatly developed musculature in their legs allowing them to leap great distances. The Novaraptor gains +8 to all Jump check rolls. Natural Attacks (Ex): The Novaraptor has an extensive array of natural attacks at their disposable. The Novaraptor is capable of making 2 primary claw attacks (1d4, 20/x2) and a secondary bite attack (1d6, 20/x2) a round. Also, if the Novaraptor uses their pounce ability they gain 2 secondary leg talon attacks (2d4, 20/x2) in addition to these normal attacks. Hunter’s Apptitude (Ex): Novaraptors are trained to hunt from a very young age. The Novaraptor gains a +2 bonus on Hide, Listen, Spot, and Survival checks. Frightful Display (Su): The Novaraptor possess a neck frill that they can expand to make themselves seem more intimidating. By using a move action to unfurl this neck frill the Novaraptor gains a +4 to intimidate check rolls. Natural Armor (Ex): The thick hide of the Novaraptor provides a +3 natural bonus to Armor Class. Favored Class: Ranger LA +2
okaynowa 02-08-07, 10:34 AM	You've painted a stronger picture of the novaraptor's savage nature. However, there's still a lot of accidentally-too-good synergy going on between the novaraptor's qualities. A base land speed of 60 grants the novaraptor a +12 to Jump checks. With the racial bonus of +6, that's a total of +18 to Jump checks before figuring skill ranks. That's a lot. Likewise, a +6 Dex and +3 natural armor means a +6 to AC overall. These advantages also stack with worn armor-- which, at 8th level and up, stands a good chance of being magic. If you're planning to play a Scout, I imagine your Dex score is going to push all that even higher. One of these three elements (Dex, natural armor, worn armor) could stand to be muted. Speaking of gear, the limited item space rules are convoluted. I would recommend either allowing it simply to use regular gear (like a Monstrous Humanoid), or saying everything costs double for its non-standard physiognomy (more like a Magical Beast). The more clauses you put in, the more time you and the DM will spend debating what qualifies and what doesn't. The existing abstract rules for armor, for example, make no mention of "torso only" protection. Is the novaraptor a Monstrous Humanoid, or a Magical Beast? The Dinosaur Heritage trait blurs the line, and not necessarily in any good way for your character-- I get the feeling Animal Empathy will only work against your character. Also, are there any spells/effects exist that target only dinosaurs? This could end up like the "orc blood" quality-- moot. The Dietary Requirement and Feeding Frenzy qualities, while dramatic, are somewhat impractical. I seem to recall that predators in the wild actually tend to go longer without food-- the compensation is that when they finally catch something, they eat more in one sitting. It's also more bookkeeping-- tracking when the novaraptor ate, subdual damage, extra saving throws, feeding time. Losing control of your character's actions doesn't sound like much fun. As a general philosophy, I advise against trying to balance good things by adding drawbacks that cause problems. If your DM doesn't target the novaraptor's Achilles' heel/glass jaw, it compensates for nothing. If the DM does target it, your character contributes nothing. Either way, it's an added hassle for player and DM alike when you simply desire a character that runs around pouncing on people and looking cool. If I were DMing for this novaraptor scout, I'd approve something like this (with ideas stolen from enygmatic_me): Type: Monstrous Humanoid (Reptilian). I know dinosaurs aren't exactly reptiles, but it's an existing subtype for which rules exist. Abilities: +2 Dex, -2 Int. So a higher AC, but fewer skills. Not a problem for a rogue/scout character. You don't need a tremendous Dex bonus because as a Scout it will probably be your primary stat anyway. Dex 10 and a +6 racial bonus needs compensation; Dex 16 and a +2 racial bonus does not. Don't penalize Wisdom because a ranger/scout will need it, and don't penalize Charisma because it won't matter enough. Natural Armor: +1 natural armor. Another little boost to AC, which can be improved with feats. This bit is important because... Unusual Body Shape: Because of a novaraptor's body shape, armor costs double the listed price for it. Additionally, its toe claws cause the loss of the boot/shoes item slot. Actually, by the time a character is even 5th level, this isn't such a big deal. A scout/rogue is going to be wearing light armor anyway, so even triple the price wouldn't bother you much. Even then, you're a charging, pouncing scout-- you don't need a tremendous AC if you're never toe-to-toe with the enemy. Speed: 40 ft. Remember that this gives you a +4 to Jump checks. Any class abilities that improve your speed are going to boost this even more. Skills: An unusual body should be good for something. The novaraptor's tail gives it a +2 racial bonus to Balance checks. It also gains a +2 racial bonus to Listen, Spot, and Survival checks thanks to its predatory senses. The neck frill bonus to Intimidate is neat, but in that case I'd drop the Listen check. In fact, I rather prefer it that way-- it's novel. No further Jump bonus is needed-- the novaraptor's speed covers that. Natural Attack: A novaraptor may make two primary attacks with its toe claws (1d4 + Str bonus, crit x2). That's about equal to a rogue using daggers and perfect two weapon fighting. If it makes a full attack, the novaraptor can also use a weapon as a secondary attack at -5. The character should have to choose between making iterative attacks with a manufactured weapon, and natural attacks with its claws. Pounce: When a novaraptor reaches 6th level, it gains the Pounce extraordinary ability. Delayed gratification. Rend: When a novaraptor reaches 12th level, it gains the Rend extraordinary ability. If it hits with both toe claws, it automatically deals an additional 2d4 + 1.5 Str bonus damage. More delayed gratification. Additionally, by 12th level the novaraptor is going to be facing more foes with damage reduction, so it'll have to choose between boosting its natural attacks to keep them relevant, or just go with regular magic weapons. No level adjustment required-- not for me, anyway. This version has some neat advantages, but by the time the novaraptor character reaches 10th level, those advantages are easily matched by what other characters have access to. In any event, when trying to balance pros and cons, I prefer to force the character to make choices, not suffer penalties. Natural attack, or magic weapon? Make the most of skills with racial bonuses, or invest scarce points (due to the Int penalty) in other areas? Put the highest score in Dex for awesome AC, or put it in Str for awesome natural attacks? But, that's just me. What's important is finding something that you'll genuinely enjoy playing, and the DM won't find a headache.
Light_Colonel 02-08-07, 11:59 PM	Thanks a lot for all your input. I think there is some pretty solid stuff in here. I am going to direct my DM over to this thread to see whats been worked out and what he wants to do.
Evilholyguy 07-25-07, 06:09 PM	I just wanted to put my imput in... this has great potential since any dinosaur could probably become anthro... but it would have to have a size limit... and the dinosaur it came from would have to some how be awakened... but thats not an issue in my campaign cause we have awaken spells for every thing but crap :D