Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Shedeo 03-17-07, 05:14 PM	Recently, a player in my friend's campaign wanted to play a Draenei, but he was rather unfamilliar with them since he doesn't play World of Warcraft. Thusly, he asked me to make one for him. So before I present it to either him or the player, I decided to throw it up on here for some constructive criticism and insight onto the way I drew them up. Alright then, on with the show! http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v490/Ymaq/Draenei.jpg +2 Wisdom -2 Dexterity Draenei resemble humans in many ways, but due to their larger size and bulk, along with their cloven feet, are less nimble and agile. However, Draenei are more world-wise and spiritual than the humans are, and are some of the most devout worshipers in all the realms. Medium size. 30-foot base movement. +2 on all Balance checks and on one craft and profession skill of the player's choice. A draenei's tail helps them keep their balance in all situations, and all draenei put their minds towards one kind of profession and crafting ability. Starlight Vision: If a draenei is in a situation of low light created by the starts or the moon, or some similar effect, they are considered to have the lowlight vision ability. Inspiring Presence: At first level, a draenei chooses either melee or ranged. From that level onward, all adjacent allies gain a +1 morale bonus on attack and damage rolls with the selected type. The draenei does not gain this bonus. Gift of the Naaru: Usable once per day, plus one per five levels, a target ally within 30' gains fast healing equal to the Draenei's hit dice for 3 rounds + Draenei's charisma modifier (minimum 3.) Using Gift of the Naaru is a standard action, but does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Bite: A Draenei's more prominent incisors give them a meager bite attack. This bite attack deals 1d3 + 1/2 of the Draenei's strength modifier. It can be used in a grapple with no penalty. +2 on all saving throws against spells with the [Evil] descriptor. Draenei are naturally resistant to vile magics thanks to their long history with them. +2 on attack rolls against outsiders with the [Evil] subtype. Draenei are all trained to battle against the demons, devils, and other denizens of the lower planes which have constantly assaulted them in their plane-wandering lives. Automatic Languages: Common, Draenei. Bonus Languages: Elven, Celestial, Abyssal, Giant, Draconic. Favored Class: Cleric And that's it for the race. Now for draenei feats! Improved Inspiring Presence Requirements: Draenei, CHA 13 Benefit: Your Inspiring Presence ability effects all allies within a 5-foot radius per level, centered on you. You also gain the benefit of your Inspiring Presence. Flash Heal Requirements: Draenei, Any Good, WIS 13 Benefit: As a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity, you may heal a target within touch range an additional amount when using your Gift of the Naaru ability. The caster level is equal to your character level. The spell-type and times per day do not stack; the new spell and times per day override the old. Level Effect 1-5 Cure Light Wounds 1/day 6-10 Cure Moderate Wounds 2/day 11-15 Cure Serious Wounds 3/day 16-20 Cure Critical Wounds 4/day Improved Flash Heal Requirements: Draenei, Any Good, WIS 17, Flash Heal, Character Level 5th. Benefit: The effects from your Flash Heal ability are automatically maximized. Greater Flash Heal Requirements: Draenei, Any good, WIS 19, Improved Flash Heal, Character level 10th. Benefit: Once per day, you may use the Heal spell as a spell-like ability, caster level equal to your hit dice. And that's all the feats I've got for them. Comments? :D
Silverthumb128 03-17-07, 05:56 PM	I'd give them stats just like an Aasimar, and replace Daylight with Cure Minor Wounds. Then, you can create the feat that would let you increase the Cure spell.
Tevin Kevlak 03-17-07, 05:59 PM	With the Gift of Naaru do they gain all of those spells mentioned? That is would a Draenei of 16th level or higher be able to cast CLW 1/day, CMW 2/day, CSW 3/day, and CCW 4/day or do they take the higher spell usable the number of times per day listed? Either way I think it might be a tad on the overpowered side for a single feat. This feat is comparable to the Dragonmark of Healing feat but it scales and provides far more uses per day then that.
Crimson_Concerto 03-17-07, 06:04 PM	I think this looks pretty good. Great job. :) I would remove the move silently penalty, though, if only because usually races don't have specific skill penalties, and even races such as centaurs and satyrs do not have move silently penalties due to their hoofs. Only think I might consider changing is that I've always thought Gift of the Narru would be more liek a Fast Healing thing. Maybe once per day per 4 HD, the target gains fast healing for one minute equal to 1/4 your HD. But your idea looks just as good if not better to me. Also, Inspiring Presence currently affects all adjacent allies, which is a 5-foot radius by default. Make the feat change it to a 10-foot radius? Maybe even more, really. Maybe a 20 or 30 foot radius?
Tevin Kevlak 03-17-07, 06:07 PM	I think this looks pretty good. Great job. :) I would remove the move silently penalty, though, if only because usually races don't have specific skill penalties, and even races such as centaurs and satyrs do not have move silently penalties due to their hoofs. Only think I might consider changing is that I've always thought Gift of the Narru would be more liek a Fast Healing thing. Maybe once per day per 4 HD, the target gains fast healing for one minute equal to 1/4 your HD. But your idea looks just as good if not better to me. Also, Inspiring Presence currently affects all adjacent allies, which is a 5-foot radius by default. Make the feat change it to a 10-foot radius? Maybe even more, really. Maybe a 20 or 30 foot radius? The feat actually makes it a 5 foot radius per character level, so 5 at 1st level, 10 and second level and so on.
Silverthumb128 03-17-07, 06:19 PM	Only think I might consider changing is that I've always thought Gift of the Narru would be more liek a Fast Healing thing. Maybe once per day per 4 HD, the target gains fast healing for one minute equal to 1/4 your HD. Like Sacred Healing? I really like that feat. Getting it for free would be good, too.
calronmoonflower 03-17-07, 06:47 PM	In all it seems to be Petty well balanced, except for Gift of the Naaru. Getting all the spell-like abilities seems a bit too much for one feat. Maybe you could change it to a pool of healing that you can dish out over several uses. Maybe twice you character level plus you Charisma modifier.
cog_n_taz 03-17-07, 06:57 PM	Nice job. As was already said though, GoN is somewhat too powerful, though the fast healing option would both fix the power problem and work more like the WoW version. Also, how about you change the constitution bonus for wisdom? They are, after all, the clericy/paladin type. Finally, it seems like your version of draenei has a dendency toward the whole tanky aspect, topped off by their favorite class: fighter. Psychic warrior, atleast to me, makes even less sense, although many people think alien=psionics. Maybe change the fav. class to paladin?
Shedeo 03-17-07, 08:08 PM	To be honest, I thought that GotN was a bit much, but I'll get to that in a moment. The thing about the favored class thing is that I didn't really know what to go with. I may go Cleric. I don't like Paladin as a favored class (save for the Aasimar) because its supposed to be a "favored of the god" type thing. Though I'd likely say that any draenei that takes GotN gains Paladin as an additional favored class. The reason for Psychic warrior was just because, I dunno, it seemed like with all the crystals and hoo-haw the draenei had floating around, it would work. Speaking of GotN. Currently, they use the highest version available as many times per day as presented. I wanted it to be like the WoW version, but I totally forgot about a fast healing option. What if it was like this? Once per day per four levels, you may bestow a touched creature with fast healing equal to your charisma modifier for a number of rounds equal to your character level. Maybe at lower levels, its not even worth, but at higher levels it could be pretty nice. Maybe twice your character level? I dunno. And I think I'll stick with a bonus to CON, only because then we dont get into the whole situation where people start complaining because races with bonuses to mental stats aren't balanced because of spell casters. That and the draenei always seemed to be more a hardy people, who value wisdom. I'ma go back and correct some spelling errors, then remove the move silently penalty, as per suggested. Since its a race that takes a hit to dex anyway, I figure that should work well anyway.
Kresalak 03-17-07, 08:30 PM	Gift of the Naaru is horrible, and anyone who takes it is shooting themselves in the foot. The healing provided is never useful-CLW 1/day is unnoticeable, and after level 5 you just have a Wand of Lesser Vigor. You could honestly give them Cure Minor Wounds at will and no one would care-at low levels, you're pretty much either at full health or dead, and past that you have equipment to patch yourself up completely between fights. Cure Minor at will would save you 1.36 gold per point spent, as a Wand of Lesser Vigor heals at a rate of 1 hp/1.3636... gp.
Red_Rabbit 03-17-07, 09:15 PM	I'd say they are more -2 Con +2 Wis +2 Chr Medium 30 Movement Low Light Vision 60ft If you really want this +2 Balance, one Craft and one Profession Inspiring Presence - either to +1 to hit or +1 to spell penetration (Must be picked at first lvl) this affects all allies within 30ft and not him/herself Gift of the Naaru: (SU) As Lay on Hands +2 on all saving throws against spells Automatic Languages: Draenei and Comon Bonus Language: Elven, Celestial, Abyssal, Draconic Favored Class: Cleric ECL +2 or +3 That's what I think Draenei would really be, but I'd look at anyone like they were crazy if they asked to play Draenei all together. I'd than tell them to make a Satyr. The Rabbit
Kresalak 03-17-07, 09:27 PM	I'd say they are more -2 Con +2 Wis +2 Chr Medium 30 Movement Low Light Vision 60ft If you really want this +2 Balance, one Craft and one Profession Inspiring Presence - either to +1 to hit or +1 to spell penetration (Must be picked at first lvl) this affects all allies within 30ft and not him/herself Gift of the Naaru: (SU) As Lay on Hands +2 on all saving throws against spells Automatic Languages: Draenei and Comon Bonus Language: Elven, Celestial, Abyssal, Draconic Favored Class: Cleric ECL +2 or +3 That's what I think Draenei would really be, but I'd look at anyone like they were crazy if they asked to play Draenei all together. I'd than tell them to make a Satyr. The Rabbit What the hell? +2 or +3? That race would be balanced at +0, and charging even 1 level for those abilities is kicking your players in the balls.
Red_Rabbit 03-18-07, 12:08 AM	I'd say they are more -2 Con +2 Wis +2 Chr Medium 30 Movement Low Light Vision 60ft If you really want this +2 Balance, one Craft and one Profession Inspiring Presence - either to +1 to hit or +1 to spell penetration (Must be picked at first lvl) this affects all allies within 30ft and not him/herself Gift of the Naaru: (SU) As Lay on Hands +2 on all saving throws against spells Automatic Languages: Draenei and Comon Bonus Language: Elven, Celestial, Abyssal, Draconic Favored Class: Cleric ECL +2 or +3 That's what I think Draenei would really be, but I'd look at anyone like they were crazy if they asked to play Draenei all together. I'd than tell them to make a Satyr. The Rabbit +1 ECL - Off Balance Stats +1 ECL - Inspiring Presence and +2 on all saving throws against spells (because Inspiring Presence if always on) +1 ECL - Gift of Naaru (SU) +1 ECL it's a very powerful ability +1 ECL mod for this power is very generous. There is no way this Race could be ECL +0. It's impossible by D&D standards for this to be balanced. The Rabbit
Kresalak 03-18-07, 12:21 AM	Off balance stats is not worth an entire level. Seriously, would you pay an ENTIRE LEVEL for +2 Wisdom? That's less than what you get from taking another level of Cleric, which also includes 1d8 hp, +1 BAB, +1 Fort saves, and, oh yeah, ADVANCES YOUR SPELLCASTING. Inspiring Presence is a Bard Song that doesn't scale and also doesn't come with any spells, BAB, crazy Fascinate ********, hp, saves, etc. Gift of Naaru is Lay on Hands, which is a crappy ability that Paladins get as a consolation prize for not playing a Cleric, and them promptly forget about when they buy a Wand of Lesser Vigor. I'd barely bat an eyelash if it was at will. +2 to saves vs spells is something that the dwarf has at ECL 0. Seriously, your Draenei is weaker than a dwarf. Instead of a gigantic list of special abilities, you take a penalty to the most useful ability score (Con), a bonus to the least (Cha), and a bonus to an OK one (Wis). Also, your friends get +1 to attack or half the effect of Spell Penetration, and you get Lay of Hands.
Shedeo 03-18-07, 12:37 AM	That, and, anything that has an LA of even +1 with a -2 CON is very inhibiting. The very point of my version of Inspiring Presence was to make it actually worht it. +1 on checks to overcome SR isn't really that noticable. It won't come into play at low levels at all (save maybe for some low-CR demons and Drow) and at higher its use is still just about as weak. Anyway, I was wanting to give GotN some kind of incarnation, but at the same time I was wanting it to be useful. I figured that the first incarnation of the ability would have worked if the Cleric or other party healer was unavailable, and it would have been a useful ability for, say, a draenei rogue or fighter, who don't have the ability to heal themselves. I also contemplated keeping it as-is and adding a line that states that the draenei can use this ability on themselves as a swift action that doesn't provoke AoOs, but that seemed too powerful. Any advice into how to make GotN useful would be helpful, if none of the incarnations seem to work. Another idea I had was to base it off Lay on Hands, but be class levels x wisdom bonus instead of CHA, and then maybe it already works at a range or there's a feat to use it at range.
Kresalak 03-18-07, 12:44 AM	I'd just let them use Cure Minor Wounds at will or something, but I'm not sure how GotN works in WoW. And I don't mean as a feat, I mean as a base ability of the race.
sooperspook 03-18-07, 01:10 AM	Gift of the Naaru is a heal over time effect usable once every 2 minutes in WoW. To simulate this I'd change it to a Lesser Vigor spell-like rather than Cure. And of course make it X/day rather than every 2 minutes. Although now that I think about it, every 2 minutes isn't that big a deal really. Anyway, I like the OP's version rather than the alternatives offered. Seems well balanced and keeps to the flavour well. Btw if you want to keep with the "comes from another dimension" idea, give them the [Extraplanar] sub type. It won't over power them but it will affect how some spells work with them.
Shedeo 03-18-07, 01:33 AM	In WoW, GotN is a heal over time ability that increases with power as the player gains levels, which is why many of the people that responded gave the suggestion that it grant fast healing. The only amount of fast healing that I could think of that would stay fairly useful would be equal to or equal to one half class levels for a minute or so. I'm not exactly sure what to do with it, to be honest.
Red_Rabbit 03-18-07, 12:01 PM	-2 to con is far from a fearful stat drop otherwise no one would ever play an elf. A +2 to Wis and Chr is a very big compared to that loss of Con. My version of the Draenei would still only be +2 or +3 ECL it'd be your choice since it's your game. If you took it anything less than that I'd wanna know where you lived so I could take advantage of you. Cure Minor Wounds might only heal 1pt of dmg, but at will is still getting your party to full hit points after a fight. Atleast with Lay on Hands your never gonna get your whole party back to full hp after an ecounter. The Rabbit
Silverthumb128 03-18-07, 12:15 PM	The only amount of fast healing that I could think of that would stay fairly useful would be equal to or equal to one half class levels for a minute or so. I'm not exactly sure what to do with it, to be honest. I'd say have a fixed amount, like 2, and have the duration increase by level, like 1 round +1 round/2 levels. It won't end up being too much, that way(and it shouldn't, IMO, since its a racial ability), and it still is good enough to use.
Kresalak 03-18-07, 01:13 PM	-2 to con is far from a fearful stat drop otherwise no one would ever play an elf. A +2 to Wis and Chr is a very big compared to that loss of Con. My version of the Draenei would still only be +2 or +3 ECL it'd be your choice since it's your game. If you took it anything less than that I'd wanna know where you lived so I could take advantage of you. No, your Draenei sucks. It's horrible. No one would ever play it. You're paying 2 to 3 LEVELS for NOTHING. Here's (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/races.htm#dwarves) a race that's stronger than yours. Tell me what it's ECL is. Cure Minor Wounds might only heal 1pt of dmg, but at will is still getting your party to full hit points after a fight. Atleast with Lay on Hands your never gonna get your whole party back to full hp after an ecounter. The Rabbit At low levels, once someone is wounded they're out of any fights until they're healed, since they don't have enough hp to survive. At higher levels, you have a Wand of Lesser Vigor and everyone's at full hp anyway.
Red_Rabbit 03-18-07, 01:56 PM	The difference between this and a Dwarf is a Dwarf isn't offering alittle extra +1 to hit and to Spell Pen to everyone in his party and he doesn't have a Lay on hands ability. The only race you could really offer a far comparson is to maybe an Assimar. Which would be willing to make me lower this down to +2 ECL. By your example you'd probly Say Assamir isn't worth the +1 ECL either, because it doesn't offer a long stack of plus's to worthless skills you'll never use. Unlike the dwarf this offers useful abilities you'll use durning every combat and after every combat. This offers Fighters and Mages there own healing ability. If there's a paladin in the party they'd either stack or have 2 different Lay on Hands abilities whichever call the DM wants to do. Your just blind to see these aren't balanced powers to give a standard race or a +0 ECL race. Unlike the Dwarves abilities these are abusable powers and if you don't think anyone would take this to abuse them than you aren't very good. So play a dwarf if you think it's better and since I'm never going to play with you than you can set the ECL to whatever you want. The Rabbit
Kresalak 03-18-07, 02:17 PM	Wow, +1 to hit and SR checks and Lay on Hands. That's totally worth two ******* levels. Oh, and did I mention that the +1 to hit and SR doesn't even affect you?
Shedeo 03-18-07, 02:21 PM	Kresalak's got a better vision about what's balanced and what isn't than most people I've seen. Getting the entire party up to full is not a very big thing, its just a nifty little ability. Not particularly helpful in battle, but pretty handy out of battle. But like Kresalak said. At lower levels, it won't really help because you're either alive or dead, and at higher levels there's other, better ways to get back to full after combat. Personally, I'd never play that draenei because of the hit to CON they take. Its not too problematic on the Elf because they're level adjustment +0. But on a creature that has a LA of +2 or higher, any negative to CON will greatly set you back. You're already being denied HP because of your missing levels. Why go for more? Moving on. The other idea that I had was that they'd basically get Lay on Hands, as mentioned above, and the feat would allow them to heal an additional amount a certain number of times per day. Also, I've been contemplating just leaving it as-is.
Red_Rabbit 03-18-07, 02:27 PM	Would you play a Drow Elf. The Rabbit
Kresalak 03-18-07, 03:28 PM	Would you play a Drow Elf. The Rabbit Not at ECL +2, I wouldn't. Drow suck.
Red_Rabbit 03-18-07, 03:39 PM	Wow Drow are ECL +2 and are awsome. Kresalak, you have no idea what you are talking about or how to put something together. So I'm at a loss why you put in this much time into a post. I wasn't sure what kind of player you were, but it's obvious to me now and you probly set every race at ECL 0 and your obviously not very sensable so I'm done here. The Rabbit
Neutronium_Dragon 03-18-07, 03:42 PM	Giving all adjacent allies a +1 to AC is already a feat (one of the White Raven ones), so giving +1 to attacks or to overcome SR is probably about a feat worth as well. (+1 to attacks and then some for a much larger area is also accomplished by 1st level spells.) It certainly doesn't come close to being an LA in itself. I wouldn't couple it with a +1 to damage, though; the WoW ones certainly don't do that.
AMGriffin 03-18-07, 05:27 PM	Don't give Draenei a bonus to Constitution, their Stamina score is lower then a human's in WoW. Take the above poster's Draenei, and give it +2 Wisdom instead of +2 Constitution, and turn the save into a resistance against evil spells of 5 or 10.
Zareneth 03-18-07, 06:22 PM	If I offend anyone, I'm terribly sorry, but if you want to play a World of Warcraft race, why not just go play World of Warcraft?
Silverthumb128 03-18-07, 06:22 PM	Wow, +1 to hit and SR checks and Lay on Hands. That's totally worth two ******* levels. Oh, and did I mention that the +1 to hit and SR doesn't even affect you? Dude, chill. Holy crap.
Crimson_Concerto 03-18-07, 06:43 PM	If I offend anyone, I'm terribly sorry, but if you want to play a World of Warcraft race, why not just go play World of Warcraft?Because WoW and D&D are two differnt things. If that's the only comment you can make, please do not post in this thread anymore.
Zareneth 03-18-07, 06:47 PM	Because WoW and D&D are two differnt things. If that's the only comment you can make, please do not post in this thread anymore. No offense but was I talking to you? And, on top of that, did you make the topic? I don't see what gives you the right to tell me where I can and can't post.
Kresalak 03-18-07, 07:08 PM	Wow Drow are ECL +2 and are awsome. Kresalak, you have no idea what you are talking about or how to put something together. So I'm at a loss why you put in this much time into a post. I wasn't sure what kind of player you were, but it's obvious to me now and you probly set every race at ECL 0 and your obviously not very sensable so I'm done here. The Rabbit You mean the drow that pays 2 levels for +2 Int/Cha, SR, and an ability worth 1/3 of the dwarf's? Oh, and some SLAs that no one cares about. Also, personal attacks are against the code of conduct.
Ventilatory_Threshold 03-18-07, 09:15 PM	I'm with Kresalak. His suggestions are sound, though he may not have conveyed them in the best way possible. His points still stand, though. The penalty to Constitution hurts all classes, though some more than others. Charisma is beneficial to the Lay on Hands ability, though it mostly just serves the purpose of not making it suck. Wisdom gives a better Will save, but is very situational otherwise. Lay on Hands is a decent ability, but there is one drawback: It creates another ability dependence just to get some mileage out of it. I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that this version is based on the player's Character Level, but it doesn't stack with the Paladin's ability unless otherwise stated, making Paladin a class that this race has little use playing. EDIT: I just realized that a Paladin would just end up with this ability twice. Better healing, sure, but still just serves the purpose of making the Paladin a bit more durable than he'd otherwise be. The best class I could see for this race would be Sorcerer, but just barely. The Constitution penalty hurts like hell, but the Lay On Hands ability helps to counter it. With an optimized Charisma score, we could be looking at 260 points of healing per day. A lot, yes, but if the Sorcerer is well played, he shouldn't even have to use it. Even if he does, he just take some pressure of the Cleric. In my opinion, Kresalak's suggestion is balanced. EDIT: I just realized that Lay on Hands only affects other targets. With that, this race is almost hopelessly underpowered. A race needs abilities that benefit the individual to be worth playing.
Silverthumb128 03-18-07, 10:00 PM	No offense but was I talking to you? And, on top of that, did you make the topic? I don't see what gives you the right to tell me where I can and can't post. Its a message board on the internet, open to free discussion at the discretion of the site's administrators and moderators, so its really not so important who was addressed, or who posts where, for that matter. Though given that its a WoW related thread, its hard to be surprised that its declined into basically a flame war.
WizO_Cat 03-18-07, 11:24 PM	Ok, let's knock it off. Keep the discussion on the topic of the thread, not other guests. This includes trying to tell other people what to do on the boards; when you do so, you're making the guest the subject of the thread. If it continues (and this goes to those on both sides of the argument), we'll have no other choice than to give the offenders Official Warns. You don't like getting them, and we don't like to hand them out. However, if it resorts to that, we will. Fair warning. ps: As to the subject of the thread, keep the discussion on D&D related items. (ie How you might convert it to D&D) If it doesn't stay that way, we'll close the thread; this board is for the discussion of D&D)
Shedeo 03-19-07, 12:58 AM	One of the primary reasons that I wanted to stray away from Wis and Cha was also because it would benefit some of their racial abilities a bit too much. With the requirements for Improved Inspiring Presence and GotN being what they are, and the fact that draenei are big into magics, I did want to stray away from bonuses to them. I picked Con because it seemed the most sensible ability score for them, it just seemed to suit them, despite their Stamina score being lower in WoW. That being said, how many are in favor for GotN being a Lay-on-Hands ability?
Kresalak 03-19-07, 07:18 AM	I'm in favor of not charging them anything to get it, since if you have to pay a feat to get Lay on Hands you might as well not have the option at all.
Ventilatory_Threshold 03-19-07, 11:40 AM	What people here don't seem to get is that Lay on Hands as a racial ability is just as much a weakness as it is a strength. It creates MAD, and it only affects other people, so it's worth nothing in a single-player campaign or if the player is separated from his group. A racial feature that doesn't benefit the race is worth much less than one that does benefit it.
Red_Rabbit 03-19-07, 12:13 PM	Lay on Hands affects everyone including yourself I'm not sure where you got the idea it doesn't affect you. I'm really not seeing how a -2 to con is making everyone so upset. If it really bothers everyone that much change it to a -2 str or dex, but there's no way it's not a +2 ECL unless you start removing abilities. There this what I'd place as ECL 0 I find it hipocritcial to give a -2 dex when the race gets a +2 to balance checks. -2 str +2 Wis +2 Chr Even the DMG or SS doesn't find this stat adjustment unbalanced and I'd agree with that. Medium 30 Movement Low Light Vision 60ft +2 Balance, one Craft and one Profession Inspiring Presence - either to +1 to hit and +1 to spell penetration this affects all allies within 30ft and not him/herself +2 on all saving throws against spells Automatic Languages: Draenei and Comon Bonus Language: Elven, Celestial, Abyssal, Draconic Favored Class: Cleric ECL 0 Turn the Gift of Naaru into a feat similiar to Sacred Healing but the benefit is half your HD, and must be Draenei. The Rabbit
Ventilatory_Threshold 03-19-07, 12:18 PM	Lay on Hands affects everyone including yourself I'm not sure where you got the idea it doesn't affect you. Huh. You're right. It still only takes pressure off the party's Cleric and makes you more self-sufficient. I'm really not seeing how a -2 to con is making everyone so upset. If it really bothers everyone that much change it to a -2 str or dex, but there's no way it's not a +2 ECL unless you start removing abilities. Instead of throwing out proclamations, how about trying to see how it fares against the other +0 LA races as they are right now? Even the DMG or SS doesn't find this stat adjustment unbalanced and I'd agree with that. Those guidelines are as outdated as the prestige class guidelines.
Kresalak 03-19-07, 01:06 PM	So your +2 ECL is completely from getting Lay on Hands? Seriously, Lay on Hands? The ability that the Paladin gets at level 2, along with Divine Grace, +1 BAB, +1 to Fort saves, 1d10 hp, and everything they got at level 1? Do you seriously think a single 2nd level class ability is worth 2 class levels? I mean, your +2 ECL Draenei and your +0 get the same abilities, except the +2 also gets Lay on Hands.
Red_Rabbit 03-19-07, 01:23 PM	Accually my other +1 ECL is this - Inspiring Presence - either to +1 to hit and +1 to spell penetration this affects all allies within 30ft and not him/herself and off balanced stats (-2 con +2 wis +2 chr). Trading in -2pts of str isn't off balanced for +2 wis and +2 chr. For an easy breakdown +1 ECL (the combined of these two make it a +1 ECL) Inspiring Presence - either to +1 to hit and +1 to spell penetration this affects all allies within 30ft and not him/herself Off balanced stats (-2 con +2 wis +2 chr) +0 ECL (taking a hit to str makes me feel better about this race and lowering it down to +0) Inspiring Presence - either to +1 to hit and +1 to spell penetration this affects all allies within 30ft and not him/herself Balanced Stat (-2 str +2 wis +2 chr) and yes Lay on Hands is still worth a +1 ECL to me. The Rabbit P.S. Kresalak instead of attacking my Draenei Race why don't you make one and lets see what you'd come up with, because the best one of these is still the +2 ECL Draenei.
Neutronium_Dragon 03-19-07, 01:44 PM	Inspiring Presence is basically a feat, and a feat isn't an LA adjustment in itself. Not by a long shot. Lay on Hands is, at best, another feat worth. Still not an LA adjustment in itself. (Otherwise anyone gaining 2nd level as a paladin ought to immediately be tagged with a +1 LA too. They aren't, which shows how absurd the idea is.) -2 Con is a better balancing factor than -2 Str. -2 Str isn't a concern to many nonphysical classes which will be helped by the +2s, but -2 Con hits everyone. It's probably inappropriate to give two +2s, however. (Wis + Cha pose a particular problem in that they mesh really well with some classes. Int + Wis or Int + Cha are less prone to this.) Given that a human's abilities are more or less 2.5 - 3 feats worth, with those two abilities you're looking at about 70% of a human's power once the stat issue is dealt with. In other words, LA +0.
Ventilatory_Threshold 03-19-07, 01:53 PM	Accually my other +1 ECL is this - Inspiring Presence - either to +1 to hit and +1 to spell penetration this affects all allies within 30ft and not him/herself and off balanced stats (-2 con +2 wis +2 chr). Trading in -2pts of str isn't off balanced for +2 wis and +2 chr. The bonus doesn't affect you, so that's barely a factor in the LA. The unbalanced ability scores are unbalanced because the Charisma is needed to actually get some mileage out of Lay on Hands. Most classes use Charisma as a dump-stat, but if they're playing this race, they really need it. That's an ability dependency that needs to be offset. BTW, I'll state again that the ability score balancing guidelines in the DMG are as outdated as the prestige class guidelines. Hellbred have either +2 Str and -2 Intelligence or a +2 Cha and -2 Con, plus a slew of racial features that are related to each ability set. This makes them more powerful than the Half-Orc, but they are still balanced. This is not considered balanced by the DMG, yet here we are. WotC has actually learned from its mistakes but can't seem to admit it. For an easy breakdown +1 ECL (the combined of these two make it a +1 ECL) Inspiring Presence - either to +1 to hit and +1 to spell penetration this affects all allies within 30ft and not him/herself The equivalent of one feat granted to your allies. You don't gain anything from it. Off balanced stats (-2 con +2 wis +2 chr) They're not unbalanced enough to justify a +1 LA. and yes Lay on Hands is still worth a +1 ECL to me. Look at the bolded part. Because you state that it warrants it to you. You need to justify your position if you want to pass it off as fact. Kresalak instead of attacking my Draenei Race why don't you make one and lets see what you'd come up with, because the best one of these is still the +2 ECL Draenei. Kresalak supports this one being +0 LA. You've just ignored his points. I say we try comparing the Draenei that Red_Rabbit insists so much are +2 LA to, say Dwarves. Or Humans (they might not even pass that test).
Red_Rabbit 03-19-07, 02:24 PM	BTW, I'll state again that the ability score balancing guidelines in the DMG are as outdated as the prestige class guidelines. Just because you say this doesn't make it true. So this is your opinion don't try to pass it as fact. Ventilatory Threshold -If you are gonna Quote me than take the whole quote instead of a small part of it. That should of been a 2 part and you only took part 2 of that. Yes a Feat is worth a +1 LA if there is no counter balance. There is only so much a race can take before it becomes to much than you need to put in penalties to offset some of the extra bonus. Lay on Hands is not equal to a feat it's better than that it's offensive and defensive. You can use it against undead and anything else that doesn't like positive energy (with no save because it is a SU ability) Paladins don't get a +1 LA for having this ability, because it is a class feature. You don't get Class Features for free you take a class to get them. Racial features are almost free since you don't have to take a class to get them. Seriously by this train of thought you should be thanking me so much for giving you 2 Epic feats (+1 Wis and another +1 to Wis) and a spell that is Always On. The Rabbit P.S. This is kind of a waste none of you are proving you can do better, because none of you are making a Draenei race to prove otherwise. So until you do than all you are doing is complaining, and not offering anything to show you might be right. So if any of you are waiting on me to say "Oops I'm wrong" which I have and will say if I can accually see something more than Complaining. The +2 LA race is still the best of all these, but I could knock it down to +1 LA because the Inspiring Presence doesn't effect you.
Red_Rabbit 03-19-07, 02:37 PM	-2 Str +2 Wis +2 Chr Medium 30 Movement Low Light Vision 60ft If you really want this +2 Balance, one Craft and one Profession Inspiring Presence - to +1 to hit and +1 to spell penetration morale bonus this affects all allies within 30ft and not him/herself Gift of the Naaru: (SU) As Lay on Hands +2 on all saving throws against spells Automatic Languages: Draenei and Comon Bonus Language: Elven, Celestial, Abyssal, Draconic Favored Class: Cleric ECL +1 (Still feels +2 to me, but this feels compremisable to me) The Rabbit
Shedeo 03-19-07, 02:43 PM	The +2 LA race may seem "the best of all these" statistically, but the +2 LA is what kills it. That and the hit to Con. The penalty to Dex was because after giving them a bonus to Con, I opted to not make them another Dwarf. I basically swapped the Elf's ability score modifiers. A penalty to Dex and a bonus to Balance isn't hipocritical. It makes sense in my view of the race. Tougher, but not as agile, yet they have a physical trait which makes them better at balancing than humans - by 1, 2 counteracted by the -1 from their ability modifier. If you really want a good, balanced draenei race, here's what I have to offer, then, with the points brought up by all members in mind. Its the same as my presented race, but the ability scores are adjusted- +2 Wis, -2 Con. They also get Lay On Hands as a racial ability called Gift of the Naaru, favored class Cleric. Voila. Edit: Rabbit, does your draenei gain low light vision or darkvision? Low light vision doesn't have a range. Darkvision does.
Kresalak 03-19-07, 02:57 PM	P.S. Kresalak instead of attacking my Draenei Race why don't you make one and lets see what you'd come up with, because the best one of these is still the +2 ECL Draenei. I would if I played WoW, but I don't so I can only critique other people's creations.
LordRosencrantz 03-19-07, 03:04 PM	*New to Boards* It seems that people are bashing the fact that the Inspiring Presence is a "low" ability because it does not effect the character using it. First off, from the wording, it is a normal "bonus" and thus stacks, so if you were to have, I don't know, a party of sorcerer's all of this race (we'll say 6 of them) they all get +5 to spell resistance, in addition to whatever feats they may have. This would work the save if it was a group of fighters. Even with just one in the party, it's difficult to knock getting a +1 bonus at any level in my opinion. Sure +2 would be better... but isn't +1 better than 0? And with that said, overall the race appears to be a dwarf, minus the whole "man of the earth thing" with a few spell-like abilities. I wouldn't go as far as +2, but probably +1 ECL. And oh yea, I was pretty sure Low-Light Vision DOES have a range.
Kresalak 03-19-07, 03:08 PM	No, Low-Light Vision doesn't have a range, but Darkvision does. We knock Inspiring Presence because it's really unimpressive. A +1 bonus is only noticed in one out of every 20 rolls, and trying to charge a level for that is like trying to charge someone their class features for Weapon Focus.
LordRosencrantz 03-19-07, 03:16 PM	Yes, but it also effects multiple people (guessing allies only, would also be impressive it it gave enemies a -1 penalty if in range). This could be up to 9 people adjecent, or a chunk of an army if the range increases, as was purposed earlier. Either way, saying +1 is unnoticable is not a good argument, since gaining a level usually only gives you +1 to stuff. Items change modifiers in ranges of 1 to 3 (pre epic). Like I said, 1 isn't a big number, but it is more than 0. Your combination of levels are just racking up the +1's. And yes, technically low light vision has a range. Humans can see the distance of light (example torch: 10 feet), thus anything with low light would see 20 (double a human). Darkvision is pretty awesome because it usually sees farther in addition to not needing light.
ATroubledMarco 03-19-07, 03:35 PM	While I do not feel really experienced enough at the moment to offer any direct feedback, I would point out that one of the writers for the Warcraft RPG has offered up an "unofficial" version of the draenei on his own site, including racial levels. I'm not sure if this could be seen as relating enough to the actual thread, but it seems a tad relevant to me. http://www.geocities.com/magusrogue/Draenei.htm
Neutronium_Dragon 03-19-07, 03:43 PM	A party of them wouldn't gain the benefit multiple times because it's essentially the same source. So a party of five still gets +1. (They just have more redundancy.) ----- As for this, from Red Rabbit... > Just because you say this doesn't make it true. The designers, however have said so themselves... > So this is your opinion don't try to pass it as fact. ...and I'll take their statements over your opinions. ----- As for my take on them, after reviewing their stats on the WoW site... Since some D&D mechanics just work differently than WoW's do, I think this can be made simpler (which is generally better): Dranei Medium Humanoid (Dranei) Base Speed 30' +2 Intelligence, -2 Dexterity Gift of the Naaru (Su): As a standard action, a dranei may bestow the Gift of the Naaru upon itself or an ally within 30'. The creature immediately heals two hit points per hit die. This ability only works on living creatures, is considered to be a Conjuration (Healing) effect, and may be used once per day. Inspiring Presence: All allies within 30' of the dranaei (but not the dranei itself) gain a +1 Morale bonus to attack rolls and saving throws vs Fear. Dranei have a +2 racial bonus to Profession (Gemcutting) checks. Dranei gain a +2 racial bonus to saving throws against energy drain and negative energy damage. A Dranei is proficient with crossbows and with one martial sword of its choice. Dranei cast all spells with the [Good] descriptor at +1 caster level. Automatic Languages: Common, Dranei Favored Class: Cleric Level Adjustment: +0.
IbanezNinja 03-19-07, 03:54 PM	What the hell? +2 or +3? That race would be balanced at +0, and charging even 1 level for those abilities is kicking your players in the balls. qft. Unless you hate your players, any level adjustment on this race (as written) is hurting them badly.
Kresalak 03-19-07, 04:19 PM	Yes, but it also effects multiple people (guessing allies only, would also be impressive it it gave enemies a -1 penalty if in range). This could be up to 9 people adjecent, or a chunk of an army if the range increases, as was purposed earlier. Either way, saying +1 is unnoticable is not a good argument, since gaining a level usually only gives you +1 to stuff. Items change modifiers in ranges of 1 to 3 (pre epic). Like I said, 1 isn't a big number, but it is more than 0. Your combination of levels are just racking up the +1's. Or you could be a Cleric and just cast Bless.
LordRosencrantz 03-19-07, 04:36 PM	Yes indeed you could just be a cleric and cast bless. And instead of buying a belt of +4 STR you could just cast bull's strength. The ability here would work under circumstances that prevent magic and cannot be dispelled. What it really sounds like is a form of whatever it is that bards get when they start (inspire courage?). Sure, someone else could do his job for him. But the party may split. The cleric may die. Magic could be suppressed. I still think it would be interesting to give it enimies -1. That would combine bless and bane for a short range. With the short range of healing abilities and a LoH, a +1 level adjustment isn't crush you. Also, is there a Warcraft reason why everyone is putting Cleric as it's chosen class?
Ventilatory_Threshold 03-19-07, 05:19 PM	Just because you say this doesn't make it true. So this is your opinion don't try to pass it as fact. Oh, wow! Way to turn the tables on me! I mentioned the examples that refute the DMG pointers. It's not an opinion, but a fact: All of the ability scores are equally important. Their importance depends on the class and/or concept you're playing. Yes a Feat is worth a +1 LA if there is no counter balance. There is only so much a race can take before it becomes to much than you need to put in penalties to offset some of the extra bonus. Humans get the equivalent of two feats at first level. Dwarves get about the equivalent of eight. Hellbred with +2 Str and -2 Int get +2 bonus on Intimidate checks (2/3 of a feat), the ability to wield Evil-aligned magic items without penalty and a bonus feat at 4th and 14th level. I'd say they're at about the same power level as the Draenei at LA +0. Lay on Hands is not equal to a feat it's better than that it's offensive and defensive. You can use it against undead and anything else that doesn't like positive energy (with no save because it is a SU ability) As soon as the damage you can deal starts to become substantial, it has already stopped mattering. HP are precious at low levels, but at higher levels, it's the saves that matter. If you're a Paladin or Hexblade (the melee types, which are most likely to use this ability), you'll be able to do damage that actually matters. This will pale in comparison to a stroke from a greatsword. Seriously by this train of thought you should be thanking me so much for giving you 2 Epic feats (+1 Wis and another +1 to Wis) and a spell that is Always On. That's total insanity. It's worth about 4,000 gp and a class feature that isn't even powerful. This is kind of a waste none of you are proving you can do better, because none of you are making a Draenei race to prove otherwise. That's because we are supporting the existing one. Your case is logically fallacious, because it assumes that we have already conceded. We haven't, we still maintain that it's LA +0. Now prove to us that it's so powerful that it deserves a LA of +2 (or even +1) as is. So until you do than all you are doing is complaining, and not offering anything to show you might be right. No, that would be you.
Red_Rabbit 03-19-07, 07:08 PM	Dranei Medium Humanoid (Dranei) Base Speed 30' +2 Intelligence, -2 Dexterity Gift of the Naaru (Su): As a standard action, a dranei may bestow the Gift of the Naaru upon itself or an ally within 30'. The creature immediately heals two hit points per hit die. This ability only works on living creatures, is considered to be a Conjuration (Healing) effect, and may be used once per day. Inspiring Presence: All allies within 30' of the dranaei (but not the dranei itself) gain a +1 Morale bonus to attack rolls and saving throws vs Fear. Dranei have a +2 racial bonus to Profession (Gemcutting) checks. Dranei gain a +2 racial bonus to saving throws against energy drain and negative energy damage. A Dranei is proficient with crossbows and with one martial sword of its choice. Dranei cast all spells with the [Good] descriptor at +1 caster level. Automatic Languages: Common, Dranei Favored Class: Cleric Level Adjustment: +0. Gift of the Naaru - This is a +1 LA, I just don't see away to get around not giving that power an LA without just saying give you whatever you want. I don't see why Ventilatory Threshold doesn't agree with me he's always saying HP is precious at low lvls so this would be a pretty darn good ability to have and get for free at +0 LA. Dranei cast all spells with the [Good] descriptor at +1 caster level. - This isn't very believable makes it a waste to be an evil Draenei So I wouldn't even bother putting this in there. For any of you who are still looking on page 1. I changed mine it's on page 2 now, and Lay on Hands is still a +1 LA. The Rabbit What book is this in Hellbred? I haven't seen or ever heard of the Writers saying the DMG LA for races is out dated or way off until you just said something. It works ok for me I've made afew LA 0 races there good and tough got some skill bonus's do to origin. Ventilatory Threshold The ability score aren't totally equal as I believe alot of people have mentioned when they say Chrisma is a dump score the DMG even says that indirectly. The one score that everyone wants fairly high no matter what class they play is Strength which makes it more valuable. Get it? I'll admit the Epic Feat thing was me trying to see who would go off on that first.
Neutronium_Dragon 03-19-07, 07:14 PM	Having the good descriptor boost certainly doesn't invalidate an evil dranei; it may make a divine caster dranei less likely to be evil, but nothing stops an evil dranei wizard from casting good spells. (And for that matter, an evil cleric dranei in Eberron might still be able to cast good spells.) Moreover, it explicitly fits with their lore in WoW, which is the primary purpose for it being there. As for GotN: No, sorry. Calling that +1 LA is patently absurd, as everyone else here agrees. And this version is even weaker, if anything. 2 HP/level per day is far less than what a Cure Wounds spell of appropriate level will get you.
Crimson_Concerto 03-19-07, 07:34 PM	The one score that everyone wants fairly high no matter what class they play is Strength which makes it more valuable. Get it?What? I think CON is what you meant to say. Most classes could care less about STR: Most Bards The vast majority of Clerics The vast majority of Druids Ranged Fighters Half of all Ranger Sorcerer Wizard And that's just core.
Neutronium_Dragon 03-19-07, 07:49 PM	Con and Dex are the only two which are reasonably useful to everyone (and Dex is less so for full plate wearing types). Str is really only highly useful to melee-machines (and can be kicked off of even that perch by Weapon Finesse), and is about equal to Int (which is mainly useful to skill monkeys).
Ventilatory_Threshold 03-19-07, 07:53 PM	I don't see why Ventilatory Threshold doesn't agree with me he's always saying HP is precious at low lvls so this would be a pretty darn good ability to have and get for free at +0 LA. The ability makes the race front-loaded and creates Multiple Attribute Dependency (make the race rely on Charisma, which would otherwise be a dump stat). To use it properly you need at least 14 Charisma, which is already 6 points in your point buy. It provides 2 HP of healing at 1st level, which is the equivalent of two castings of Cure Minor Wounds. It's not powerful. What book is this in Hellbred? Fiendish Codex II. I haven't seen or ever heard of the Writers saying the DMG LA for races is out dated or way off until you just said something. They didn't need to say it. They just did it by designing these new races. Ventilatory Threshold The ability score aren't totally equal as I believe alot of people have mentioned when they say Chrisma is a dump score the DMG even says that indirectly. Charisma isn't a dump stat for the Sorcerer, Bard, Paladin, Socially-focused Rogues, Clerics or, to a lesser extent, Druids. For these classes, it proves valuable. The one score that everyone wants fairly high no matter what class they play is Strength which makes it more valuable. Get it? What? I think CON is what you meant to say. Most classes could care less about STR: Most Bards The vast majority of Clerics The vast majority of Druids Ranged Fighters Half of all Ranger Sorcerer Wizard And that's just core.
Neutronium_Dragon 03-19-07, 07:58 PM	> They didn't need to say it. They have actually said it in some of their interviews and discussions. It's a pretty well-understood fact that the valuations of a lot of things were messed up. (And in fact, in one of the other threads on this forum right now about LAs, someone's quoted one of the designers of Savage Species explicitly stating that the LAs were deliberately overcosted to make non-standard races undesirable.)
Ventilatory_Threshold 03-19-07, 08:05 PM	someone's quoted one of the designers of Savage Species explicitly stating that the LAs were deliberately overcosted to make non-standard races undesirable. I don't know why, but I'm not so surprised. I guess it's the fact that I've seen far more horrible insanities emerge from the minds of the designers. But this is just a really, really crappy design philosophy. It reeks of... reactionism. I don't know why, but that's really what I'm seeing.
mythSSK 03-19-07, 08:43 PM	Eh, I stopped reading after the WizO's post. I figure I will toss in my own little Draenei racial traits that I came up with a while ago. If you like them, whatever, if you don't, doesn't matter, just thought they might be relevant to the discussion at hand. I based them as closely as I could to the WoW stats using information from http://www.wowwiki.com/Draenei . they have low light vision cause their eyes are all glowy... yeah, that's my reason. Bite me. I also don't think they should get a bonus to Balance, as their tails just seem to stop them from falling over from having screwed up legs. They also don't make good paladins, considering it's their favored class. Actually, I don't think they're particularly good at much at all. Maybe as a bard. --- Draenei - Dexterity -2, Constitution -2, Intelligence +2, Charisma +2. - Medium: As Medium creatures, draenei have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. - Draenei base land speed is 30 feet. - Low-light vision. - Gift of the Naaru (Sp): Once per day, a draenei can call upon his innate connection to the Light to heal himself or an ally. Doing so causes the target to gain fast healing equal to the draenei's Hit Dice for five rounds. This ability has a maximum range of 30 feet. A draenei gets an additional use per day of this ability for every 5 Hit Dice he has. - Draenic Presence (Su): At first level, a draenei chooses to either have a heroic presence or an inspiring presence. Draenei who choose to have a heroic presence give a +1 morale bonus on attack rolls to all allies (but not himself) within 30 feet. Draenei who choose to have an inspiring presence give a +2 morale bonus on caster level checks to overcome spell resistance to all allies (but not himself) within 30 feet. Morale bonuses from multiple draenei's presence abilities do not stack. - +2 racial bonus on Craft (gemcutting) checks. - +2 racial bonus to saving throws vs. spells with the [evil] descriptor. - Favored Class: Paladin.
Red_Rabbit 03-20-07, 02:35 AM	MythSSK, I like this version of the Draenei the best. I know it is stronger than all the Gifts from all the other templates, but I like the look of this version. It speaks to me??? So I've got nothing else to talk about. Although I still believe it's +1 LA worthy I'd let it slide for +0 LA in one of my games. I just like this one. But I've never worried much about Hps so -2 con isn't a problem for me. I don't get hit alot. The Rabbit
mythSSK 03-20-07, 07:31 AM	The Gift is strong, but I think the really bad ability score penalties counter it. No matter what class you take as one, you're losing out on something important to you. For a +Int, +Cha race, it makes draenei bards, rogues, wizards, paladins and sorcerers all look slightly subpar because of the Dex and Con penalties.
Shedeo 03-21-07, 11:28 PM	I was thinking about going with something like that for the Gift on my frist few look-overs of the race, but I decided to not go with it. Here's my final draft of the race. +2 Wis -2 Con +2 on balance and one craft skill of the player's choice. Starlight Vision: In situations of low light created by starlight, moonlight and similar effects, a draenei is considered to have the Lowlight vision quality. Inspiring Presence: At first level, the draenei selects either melee or ranged. After this is selected, it cannot be changed. A draenei's allies gain a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with the selected type of attacks. Gift the Naaru: Usable once per day, plus one per five levels, a draenei may bestow Fast Healing to a target within 30' of him. He can affect himself with this ability. This fast healing lasts for five rounds. +2 on all saving throws versus spells with the [Evil] descriptor. +2 on all attack rolls versus outsiders with the [Evil] subtype. Automatic Languages: Common, Draenei. Bonus Languages: Elven, Celestial, Abyssal, Giant, Draconic. Favored Class: Cleric. And that's it. As far as feats are concerned, here's how I've worked them now. Improved Inspiring Presence Requirements: Draenei, Cha 13 Benefit: You now gain the benefit of your inspiring presence. Additionally, it extends out to a range of 5'/level. Flash Heal Requirements: Draenei, Cha 13 Benefit: A number of times per day equal to 1/5 levels plus your charsima modifier, you may boost your Gift of the Naaru healing power. At levels 1-5, you may increase it as if by a Cure Light Wounds spell. 6-10, as if by a Cure Moderate Wounds spell. 11-15 as if by a Cure Serious Wounds spell. 16-20 as if by a Cure Critical Wounds spell. Your caster level is equal to your character level for this ability and may only be used on a target if they are within touch range. There we go.
mythSSK 03-21-07, 11:40 PM	I was thinking about going with something like that for the Gift on my frist few look-overs of the race, but I decided to not go with it. Here's my final draft of the race.The reason I went with the fast healing is that it's far more representative of the actual draenei than a lay on hands style ability. I also think it scales nicely, being moderately useful at all levels, just as the actual ability in the game is (so sayeth the 70 Draenei Paladin). Changing it from a HoT (healing over time) ability to an instant one just seems like a cop out. For example, if you were converting the WoW warlock class to D&D, would you make abilities/spells such as Corruption and Curse of Agony deal damage over a number of rounds or would they just hit the enemy with X amount of damage as soon as you cast it?
Shedeo 03-21-07, 11:55 PM	Right, right, of course. DoTs are rather common in DnD, wheras HoTs, not so much. Of course there are some uses of it. I'm still tossing it around. I know that I said its the "final version" but at the same time the GotN ability might work better as a Fast Healing as well, so I'm still toying with it. The Improved feat for it would just allow you to, a certain number of times per day, add that much healing in the first round. A kind of "Flash Heal" ability added onto the HoT for a bit of a boost.
mythSSK 03-22-07, 12:21 AM	The Improved feat for it would just allow you to, a certain number of times per day, add that much healing in the first round. A kind of "Flash Heal" ability added onto the HoT for a bit of a boost.I really like that idea for a feat. Also, my version is a Spell-Like ability rather than than a Supernatural one, and is thus eligible for things like Quicken Spell-Like Ability and Extend Spell-Like Ability. Which I find cool, but probably useless. Huh, just realised I have no information in my description about the draenei's caster level and the gift's effective spell level. That needs to be fixed.
Shedeo 03-22-07, 12:30 AM	Alright then, with that knowledge, I'm going to go back and change my "final draft" to the changes presented here, though I'll still be tossin the Fast Healing vs LoH arguement back and forth in my brain-thing. Also, question. Do you think that this "flash heal" should also work out to 30' or only touch?
mythSSK 03-22-07, 12:42 AM	I think to retain balance it should probably be a within touch range thing. If it were only for a small amount of bonus healing, then 30' would be fine, but you'd have to make it above a certain amount of healing to make the feat even worth taking - to my mind that would mean reducing range so as not to make it too powerful an ability. Cure spells are only touch range, after all.
mythSSK 03-22-07, 01:21 AM	Blessing of the Naaru Your connection to the Naaru runs more deeply than your peers. Prerequisites: Draenei, Heal 6 ranks, Cha 15 Benefits: You may treat yourself as having two Hit Dice more for the purposes of your Gift of the Naaru racial ability. This counts towards amount of fast healing granted and the rate at which you acquire bonus uses per day. (For example, a 3rd level draenei paladin with this feat grants fast healing 5 with his Gift of the Naaru ability and can use it twice per day.) Improved Blessing of the Naaru Your connection with the Naaru is far stronger than that of ordinary draenei. Prerequisites: Draenei, Blessing of the Naaru, Heal 9 ranks, Cha 17 Benefits: Whenever you activate your Gift of the Naaru racial ability on a target within touch range (including yourself), your target heals an additional 1d4 points of damage for every two hit dice you possess (The bonus from Blessing of the Naaru does count towards this ability). This only affects him in the round you activate the ability, and does not get added on to the fast healing he receives in the preceding rounds. You gain an additional use of your Gift of the Naaru ability per day. --- I think they might be too strong. I just whipped them up now, and I haven't really thought about their balance too much. I like the ideas behind them, which is why I wrote them, but they may be slightly broken. A level 6 draenei with both feats can use his Gift 3 times per day, granting fast healing 8 to his target for five rounds plus an additonal 4d4 points of healing in the first round. This heals a total of 150 (on average) points of damage. WoW. Waaaaaay too much. Because I think that my first feat is actually a reasonably balanced, tried-and-tested non-overpowering way of improving any ability, I now think my original Gift of the Naaru ability is a little strong, but I can't think of a way to depower it without making it useless. Hmmm, how about if you make the basic Gift of the Naaru grant fast healing equal to half the draenei's Hit Dice (minimum 1) instead, the same draenei can use his Gift 3 times per day, granting fast healing 4 to his target for five rounds plus an additonal 4d4 points of healing in the first round, healing a total of 90 points of damage. Better, but I dunno. I'm not sure how well this works at higher levels, either. Is fast healing 10 and 10d4 points in the first round worth it at level 20? Could I get someone else's input on these? What about a feat that makes your blessing usable as a swift action (and adds anther use per day)? What if we add a clause in the original ability stating that GotN cannot be used more than once per two minutes (simulating WoW a bit more and adding more balancing factors)? I'm confuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuzed! *wails*
Shedeo 03-22-07, 01:22 AM	Right, that's what I was thinking as well. Thanks for the input, its been a big help. Improved Gift of the Naaru will likely be renamed to Flash Heal and other such things will be changed. There is one very important thing to consider, however. Would this ability be able to harm undead in the same manner? That could be a bit nasty if so.
mythSSK 03-22-07, 01:27 AM	No, I don't think harming undead with the fast healing version should be an option because it's further away from the WoW version, and because it doesn't mesh well with the fast healing mechanic itself. Perhaps it could work with the lay on hands version, but then again that's making it stray even farther away from WoW, which is my objection with the lay on hands style to begin with. Also, I vote for my "Blessing of the Naaru" name for the feat. :p
Stado 03-22-07, 03:53 AM	Personally, this is probably how I'd handle Draenei in D&D, and this is mostly just an alteration of what mythSSK's given us: Draenei Racial Traits +2 Wisdom, -2 Dexterity. Medium: As Medium creatures, draenei have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. Draenei base land speed is 30 feet. Low-light vision. Gift of the Naaru (Su): The draenei are able to call on the Naaru to aid themselves or an ally. Once per day as a standard action, a draenei may target himself or a single creature up to 30 feet away, healing the target for 1d3+1 x ½ the draenei's Hit Dice (rounded down; minimum 1d3+1) + Charisma bonus points of damage per round for 3 rounds. Undead creatures take damage instead, and require a ranged touch attack to affect. Presence (Su): At 1st level, a draenei chooses to either have a heroic presence or an inspiring presence. Draenei who choose to have a heroic presence give a +1 sacred bonus on attack rolls to all allies (but not himself) within 30 feet. Draenei who choose to have an inspiring presence give a +2 sacred bonus on caster level checks to overcome spell resistance to all allies (but not himself) within 30 feet. Sacred bonuses from multiple presence abilities do not stack. +2 racial bonus on Appraise and Craft checks related to gems, jewels, and other precious stones. +2 racial bonus to saving throws vs. spells with the [Evil] descriptor. Automatic Languages: Common and Eredun. Bonus Languages: Celestial, Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, and Orc. Favoured Class: Paladin.
Shedeo 04-27-07, 02:18 PM	I'll toss a bump up, just for posterity's sake.
Old Sparky 04-27-07, 08:37 PM	+2 Wisdom -2 Constitution Draenei resemble humans in many ways, but are not as tough. However, Draenei are more world-wise and spiritual than the humans are. +2 on all Balance checks and on one craft and profession skill of the player's choice. A draenei's tail helps them keep their balance in all situations, and all draenei put their minds towards one kind of profession and crafting ability. Comments? :D Just a couple comments: Why are draenei considered not as tough as humans? I'll agree with the +2 Wis bonus as they are enlightened creatures... but, if anything, I would assign the -2 penalty to Dexterity. While not large creatures, draenei are bigger than humans. Also note that they, as a race, cannot be rogues which implies to me a certain lack of dextrous nature. Next, draenei's tail doesn't give it more balance than other races. If anything, it counters the awkwardness of walking around on 2 hooves. No skill bonus for Balance checks. One last note: Draenei have slightly elongated canine teeth which I would treat as small fangs that can inflict 1d3 damage... though I doubt any self-respecting enlightened creature such as a draenei would lower itself to using them in any but the most desperate of situations. Other than that, it looks good and I have a friend in my game that would be quite interested in using this race in our regular campaign.
Shedeo 04-27-07, 09:19 PM	The reason for the Con penalty is that in World of Warcraft, a Draenei of the same class will have less HP than a Human in WoW. I originally had them with +2 Con, -2 Dex. I then changed it to a boost in Wisdom, and kept the hit to Dex. After that, well, I was told that they would have a hit to con rather than dex, so I changed it. Seemed plausable. The boost to Balance was originally an offset to their hit to Dex, which is why its there. They're more clumsy, but better on-balance because of tha tail. Basically a really big liberty on that flavor aspect. ^^ I wouldn't really give them any benefit for the canines. The 1d3 won't help them much, save in grapples, and even then not really all that much.
Old Sparky 04-27-07, 09:57 PM	Well, if you didn't keep the hit to Dex, you should probably drop the bonus to Balance. Its a small tail, I don't see it giving them a significant advantage in that respect... it looks like only enough to counter the design of their legs. Maybe put the Dex penalty back and give them a +2 Cha bonus to balance it. As for the Con penalty, I had no idea. So many numbers... soooo many numbers. Too much to keep track of. And the fangs, I still stand by them. They may not do any good, but its a small enough addition to the other racial abilities that it shouldn't affect balance one way or another. Even if you don't, I'll be keeping that as a racial feature when I make draenei available to the players. ---------- So, can you cite sources for your ascertation about the differences in hit points between humans and draenei in WoW? Because after sharing your presentation with my friend, he tells me that he is fairly certain that there is no difference between them when stripped of gear and buffs. ---------- Okay, so after further discussion with my friend, this is what we came up with. He was basing his information off of a pair of level 70 warriors, one human and the other draenei (actually threw in comparisons with a couple other races just to be sure). Without buffs or equipment, they all end up with the same hit point totals in the same class. However, there is indeed a starting difference. In this case, Draenei do have a lower Stamina (and, thus, lower hit point totals) to start with. However, they do not have a static level-based adjustment (as with D20's +1 to any ability every 4 levels). Assigning a draenei a -2 Con penalty negatively impacts the draenei at the higher levels when it should be catching up with its human counterparts as it does in WoW (by gaining better level-based Stamina modifiers). Additionally, this difference in Stamina between draenei and humans varies from class to class. Sure, you could start a draenei with a 16 Con and pump all your +1 bonuses at every 4th level into it for a score of 21 at 20th level... but a human can do the same and get a 23. As my friend sees it, this is wrongly penalizing long-term survivability to fit that initial lower Stamina mold... and, if you're going to hold to that, it turns out draenei actually start with a better Strength score than humans... so they should also get a +2 Str modifier. Personally, my head hurts. I'mma gonna call it a night.
Wolf72 04-28-07, 10:10 AM	I like the idea of -2 dex (not a hit to refl saves or dex skills) btw what does spirit equate to in DnD? (wisdom?)
Shedeo 04-28-07, 01:56 PM	Yes, Spirit in WoW equates to Wisdom in DnD. I think I'll move the penalty back to Dex. I thought that it fit better.... I'll keep the boost to Balance; with the hit to Dex, one +1 to a skill that their favored class doesn't have, and they don't make good dex-based character (except, perhaps, Rangers) I'd just say I'd leave it. I think I'll remove the bonus to Prof, but keep the one to Craft. I think it fits. I didn't like the idea of the Con penalty anyway. >( And on that note, I think I may attempt to write up how one could fit Draenei into settings other than WoW, just using basic info on them. Dunno though, I don't really know a whole lot about Eberron (though I know the classes from it, and the idea of a Draenei Artificer intrigues me.)
Old Sparky 04-28-07, 03:27 PM	Work it into FR, too. :)
Shedeo 04-28-07, 05:00 PM	Heheh, out of all the campaign settings, FR is the one that holds the most good memories for me. Its probably my favorite setting, though I'm rather rusty on what would be considered "modern" FR... So if you'd like to help, I'm all ears. If you're familliar with the Star Elves, however, I was thinking of linking the Draenei to their other realm and the region on Toril they reside in, but I'm not quite up to date on it anymore.
Wolf72 04-28-07, 07:51 PM	Yes, Spirit in WoW equates to Wisdom in DnD. ... And on that note, I think I may attempt to write up how one could fit Draenei into settings other than WoW, just using basic info on them. Dunno though, I don't really know a whole lot about Eberron (though I know the classes from it, and the idea of a Draenei Artificer intrigues me.) you know, the dimensional ship crash and the idea of an evil power out there (other than the burning legion I'm thinking of [doh! been to long, can't remember thing's name] of the evil superpower in Buffy the Vampire Slayer) are a pretty good way to introduce Dranei. Maybe the Naruu will have to petition a few gods/powers of good to allow the Dranei their healing powers.
Sphere 04-28-07, 09:46 PM	Personally, this is probably how I'd handle Draenei in D&D, and this is mostly just an alteration of what mythSSK's given us: +2 Wisdom, -2 Dexterity. Medium: As Medium creatures, draenei have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. Draenei base land speed is 30 feet. Low-light vision. Gift of the Naaru (Su): The draenei are able to call on the Naaru to aid themselves or an ally. Once per day as a standard action, a draenei may target himself or a single character or creature up to 30 feet away, healing the target for 1d4 x ½ the draenei's Hit Dice (minimum 1d4) points of damage per round for 3 rounds. Undead creatures take damage instead, and require a ranged touch attack to affect. Presence (Su): At first level, a draenei chooses to either have a heroic presence or an inspiring presence. Draenei who choose to have a heroic presence give a +1 sacred bonus on attack rolls to all allies (but not himself) within 30 feet. Draenei who choose to have an inspiring presence give a +2 sacred bonus on caster level checks to overcome spell resistance to all allies (but not himself) within 30 feet. Sacred bonuses from multiple draenei presence abilities do not stack. +2 racial bonus on Appraise and Craft checks related to gems or jewels. +2 racial bonus to saving throws vs. spells with the [Evil] descriptor. Automatic Languages: Common and Eredun. Favoured Class: Paladin. This is the best one yet.
Shedeo 04-29-07, 05:51 PM	I like Stado's, but I think that the Gift of the Naaru ability is too weak for a 1/day thing. Regardless, if there's anyone out there that could, perhaps, work them a decent introduction into Eberron? The dimensional ship crash is a great way to introduce them, I agree, especially with foes other than the Burning Legion. As far as the Naaru, well... From my knowledge of Eberron, they could have gifted the Draenei with their healing powers. In FR, I would make Naaru a plane-specific creature, perhaps the original caretakers of the Positive Energy plane before moving onto a world that needed their abilities more. But I'll have to check more deeply into FR lore for that, so I really can't be too sure for the moment. Really, its up to the DM I suppose, but still. Its nice to see what other peoples' opinions are, maybe they can see something you can't. So now I'm all ears to suggestions, both for "new" flavor and their racial traits. Also, I added a bite. You are correct; it doesn't effect their power one way or the other, so why not?
Old Sparky 04-30-07, 01:00 AM	Nah, FR is full of dimensional/otherworldly refugees. Former caretakers of the Positive Material Plane? I'd say their background could mirror WoW's... but any divine patronage would have to be picked up by FR god(s), kinda like the Saurial were.
Shedeo 04-30-07, 03:09 PM	That was the reason why I suggested they be the former caretakers of the Positive Energy plane. They were created (and there for serve the gods) to take care of it... Therefor they pettition the gods to allow the Naaru to bless the Draenei with healing abilities.
Stado 04-30-07, 04:23 PM	I like Stado's, but I think that the Gift of the Naaru ability is too weak for a 1/day thing. Not that it really matters, but FYI, it's a minimum of 30 and a maximum of 120 healing at 20 HD. If you feel that the minimum is too low (and it likely is), make it "...healing the target for 1d3+1 x ½ the draenei's Hit Dice (minimum 1d3+1) points of damage per round for 3 rounds." This makes it a minimum of 60, while keeping the maximum of 120. You could even add a draenei's Charisma bonus to the healing per round for that extra boost at the lower levels. As for the FR reflavouring, I actually rather like your idea, Shedeo. Makes a lot of sense to me.
Wolf72 04-30-07, 08:38 PM	just stick with their original story ... you could throw in some SJ (or not) and PS (or not). but lived on orc planet, fought corruption, lost, fled ... here we are! if you don't like the idea of the Burning Legion, have them involved in a Planar war (like they are) but use demons/devils and celestials ... etc. of course orcs change some too, I like my orcs evil and brutish. But Savage noble types are ok in my book too (like elves and drow, or dwarves and duergar)
Shedeo 05-01-07, 02:05 PM	Here's how I'm running the Draenei in my FR game. Or at least, how I would if the game were still around. Beware! I practically wrote a novel for this post! The Draenei are from another realm entirely, an alternate prime, if you will. There they lived peacefully for many thousands of years in a small coven. Their numbers were never high, but they did not need to be. They were a relatively peaceful people, posessing a clear insight into the spiritual realm. Alone in their section of the world, they did not need to make war. However, on the opposite end of the world, a new empire was rising. Related to the orcs these creatures were, but structured, organized, and posessing great arcane power. The Sharakim, they called themselves. Not particularly evil, but wishing to unite all the world under one banner, they began their long march outwards. Eventually, the Draenei came under the scrutiny of the Sharakim. Sensing that they posessed much in the realm of potential, the Sharakim began to hunt down and capture Draenei of varying ages and genders, studying this new race. The Draenei, using their magical ingenuity, began to construct a powerful vessel, an inter-planar ark, if you will, to whisk their entire race away from the Sharakim. The Sharakim, sensing that something was amiss, began to press their advantage of magic and numbers against the Draenei, forgoing the political threats that they normally produced and attempted to take the small kingdom for their own... But found no one. Nothing. It was as if the Draenei and their entire populace had just... Vanished. In reality, this inter-planar vessel, known as the "Exodar," had already made its departure. The Draenei moved on, passing into another plane. Regardless of their knowledge of the ways of magic, they were still rather naieve to the layout of the planes and their interraction with one another. They made their way into Limbo, where they fell under attack by the Githyanki. Shifting planes again, they fled... Plane after plane after plane. Eventually, the Draenei found themselves caught in a battle of the Blood War. Stuck between the devils and the demons, the race thought that perhaps this would be the fall of the Exodar. However, the timely approach of a celestial battalion saved the Exodar from a grim fate, and it promptly fled once more. Now the Draenei went from bad, to slightly better but not quite good. They were on a plane of positive energy, but the magical shielding that protected the Exodar should have also protected them from this... But the while this barrier could withstand attack after attack after attack, it was not being broken down, but overcharged. It would not be long before the barrier fell, and the Draenei were exposed to the harsh environment of the Positive Energy Plane. However, a being then, powerful beyond all words, found them. Having heard of the reports of the strange vessel from the Celestials, it was even more surprised to have found it sitting practically in its front lawn. Using its nigh god-like powers, it protected the vessel and the Draenei within it. Sensing the Draenei were good of heart, desperate, and confused, it communed with its deity. The Draenei's greatest weakness was that they had no divine patron, and therefor, could not even heal their own wounded. Rather than bring the wrath of the gods down upon them, this creature, known as a Naaru, showed them the path. Lathander adopted the Draenei as his divine servants, and the Naaru were able to permanently gift the Draenei with the ability to tap into the power of the positive energy plane. This was no normal god-given power, but something that would last for generations to come. The Draenei inside the repowered Exodar sped off across the planes again. With a renewed faith in the multiverse and a greater power, the Gift of the Naaru as they called it, the Draenei stepped out to try and forge a new home on a different realm. The Draenei were, once again, caught within a battle with the Celestials against the legions of Hell, the Exodar serving as a bastion on the front line of the combat, when the super ship suffered a terrible direct hit. The devils began to swarm the ship, and the Exodar was forced once again to planeshift in order to save its precious cargo. Being as baddly damaged as it was when it reached the prime once again, the Exodar, now within a plane with gravity, began to plummet towards the surface of Toril. The Draenei were barely able to stablize most of the ship, bringing it to a rather rough crash landing somewhere near... ...Wherever the DM decides to crash the Exodar. I'll likely come up with some kind of character/campaign hitches, maybe 'bout ten or so, but eh. I'm not too worried about it. Stado, on a related note, I misread your Gift of the Naaru. I thought it healing 1d4 + 1/2 of their hit dice, not multiplied. My bad.
the_fenris_wolf 07-29-07, 09:43 PM	.........NO LA !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WTF ? With no LA that has got to be the most powerful race i have ever seen, and Starlight vision.... change that to just low-light vision, just easier. ALso i think you would have to sacrifice to much in order to apply WoW races to the D20 environment as the races themselves in WoW have abilities that are worth a class of there own..... mmmmmmhhhhmmmm ........................................ ........................................ ........................................ ........................................ ........................................ ........................................ ........................................ ..... TASTY !!! I like to ........................................ ........................................ ........................................ ........................................ ........................................ ....
Shedeo 07-30-07, 10:34 AM	Actually, I've played one of these in a 10th-level campaign, and I've done several acid tests of them. They're not really that powerful. The big thing they've got is their ability to heal, but that's it. They can, but they don't do it well. Nowhere near as well as a divine caster of their level would, mainly because the Draenei's healing ability is a heal-over-time, wheras clerics, favored souls, druids, and archivists could heal that amount right away and still be able to do it again several times. By the time the number gets higher and the uses/day kicks in, clerics are outdoing you. And when that's the only really cool thing your race gets, its not that great. Good for backup and after-combat healing, but otherwise, eh. Nothing really impressive.
Teh_username 07-30-07, 01:03 PM	What's that, you say? There's already an actual WoW RPG that's a d20 conversion, that has Blizzard's stamp of approval and runs stats/lore by them before printing it? And it got mentioned already, yet was totally ignored in favour of angry rants about whose e-wang was bigger? What a shocker. I would point out that one of the writers for the Warcraft RPG has offered up an "unofficial" version of the draenei on his own site, including racial levels. I'm not sure if this could be seen as relating enough to the actual thread, but it seems a tad relevant to me. (http://www.geocities.com/magusrogue/Draenei.htm) What Marco didn't mention is that, many times, the creatures/races/etc. that have been on that site have been the exact same versions that ended up in the books later on (except for lore/wording).
Shedeo 07-31-07, 02:22 AM	What's that, you say? There's already an actual WoW RPG that's a d20 conversion, that has Blizzard's stamp of approval and runs stats/lore by them before printing it? And it got mentioned already, yet was totally ignored in favour of angry rants about whose e-wang was bigger? What a shocker. What Marco didn't mention is that, many times, the creatures/races/etc. that have been on that site have been the exact same versions that ended up in the books later on (except for lore/wording). The problem is, I've already seen it, and I don't like it. Also, do remember, that this race didn't originally start as Draenei, but I decided to run with it because mechanically they were looking similar.
Qit_el-Remel 03-21-08, 04:10 AM	Nice backstory for putting them in FR. I'd just have had it be a crashed spelljamming vessel and complete the WoW-rippage. Of course, if I were to put draenei in a FR game (or a game based out of my own original setting) I'd end up opening the mega-crossover can of worms. (I'll say "Talislanta," state that that would only be the beginning, and leave it at that.) -Qit
Qit_el-Remel 03-23-08, 03:09 PM	Additionally, let me add that I'd stick with cleric for the favored class. But I'm not sure how appropriate the bite thing is. (My shaman's sharp little teeth certainly look appropriate for chomping someone but good...however, she only ever has the opportunity to chomp someone but good while in Ghost Wolf form.) -Qit