Post/Author/DateTime	Post
AaronDireBear 06-28-07, 11:59 PM	I have a PC who wants to be a Wyrmling Brass Dragon, which is cool and all, but is he stuck with the array given in the Monster Manual, or is there a way to figure out stat adjustments for a Player Character? Like, im sure he has a penalty to strength and maybe dex when hes a wyrmling but im not sure. Didnt someone calculate this on the old boards., I cant remember who or where?
Rerecros 06-29-07, 12:06 AM	All monsters int the MM possess the following array Str 13, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 8. Wyrmling Brass Dragon's possess the following array 11 10 13 10 11 10 Your player would gain the following adjustments -2 Str +1 Dex -1 Con +2 wis +2cha I would just ignore the adjustments to dex and con, so -2 Str +2 wis +2cha
AaronDireBear 06-29-07, 12:25 AM	Wouldnt that be a +2 cha if he has 10? Where does it say which stats IN the array were given to which score?
Rerecros 06-29-07, 12:44 AM	Oops, thats why you should always show your work :P I've always assumed they went in the same order for all monsters in the MM.
Phalo 06-29-07, 12:53 AM	A brass wyrmling woudl have a ECL of 6 thats pretty heavy maybe you talk him into playing a draconic character
AaronDireBear 06-29-07, 02:27 AM	Annoying thing number 37: People who try to convince me to "talk my player out of it" based solely on the ECL. Youve made a very bitter enemy today, for you have pushed one of my main nerves when it comes to this message board. The ECL is BLOODY IRRELEVANT! It has absofrickinlutely no relevance to the topic at hand! Give relevant information or GTFO. I dont want to hear how HORRIBLE it is that he's going to start with onlt 1 monk level. I really, really, don't.
ShadowChemosh 06-29-07, 02:40 AM	Annoying thing number 37: People who try to convince me to "talk my player out of it" based solely on the ECL. Youve made a very bitter enemy today, for you have pushed one of my main nerves when it comes to this message board. The ECL is BLOODY IRRELEVANT! It has absofrickinlutely no relevance to the topic at hand! Give relevant information or GTFO. I dont want to hear how HORRIBLE it is that he's going to start with onlt 1 monk level. I really, really, don't. Nice the angry 12 year old response.
Leonidus 06-29-07, 02:53 AM	Rerecros has it horribly wrong, actually. Sorry. (Ye gods. Wherever did you get that idea?) All regular monsters, aside from 1st-level warriors of any such race, like orcs, goblins, kobolds, or aasimar, and skipping any class-leveled monsters, possess straight 10 10 10 11 11 11, in whatever order. What you actually do is subtract 10 if even, 11 if odd, to result in entirely even numbers, it's never +1 or +3 or -5. Thus, the Wyrmling brass gets... +2 Con, that's it. That's it? Hrm. Tiny, 4 dragon hitdice, +3 natural armor, 1d6 breath weapon, speak with animals at will, fire subtype, 1 bite that threatens, 2 claws that don't, and a land speed of 60 feet, burrow 30, fly 150 feet (avg). Seems pretty good, actually. My advice to you would actually be to hunt up the Dragon issue 330, I believe it is, which has 20-level progressions for all 5 metallic dragons. Dragon 342, likewise, has the chromatics. These allow you to start your player off at level one, if you so desire. The idea behind using a monster class like that is that I actually allow my players to mix half-and-half with a base class, usually using the 'racial' entry as you would elf, human, or gnome, then use a regular core class, then flip off between them. My standing rule is no less than half, rounding down, of your levels can be of your monster class, until you finish the class. In this case, those dragons have a point where they say Wyrmling or Juvenile or something in bold. They have to stop there, until they reach in in-game time, the next age category, when they have to start taking those levels again.
Morwen 06-29-07, 07:10 AM	Just to confirm, Leonidus has it correct.
AaronDireBear 06-29-07, 03:30 PM	Rerecros has it horribly wrong, actually. Sorry. (Ye gods. Wherever did you get that idea?) All regular monsters, aside from 1st-level warriors of any such race, like orcs, goblins, kobolds, or aasimar, and skipping any class-leveled monsters, possess straight 10 10 10 11 11 11, in whatever order. What you actually do is subtract 10 if even, 11 if odd, to result in entirely even numbers, it's never +1 or +3 or -5. Thus, the Wyrmling brass gets... +2 Con, that's it. That's it? Hrm. Tiny, 4 dragon hitdice, +3 natural armor, 1d6 breath weapon, speak with animals at will, fire subtype, 1 bite that threatens, 2 claws that don't, and a land speed of 60 feet, burrow 30, fly 150 feet (avg). Seems pretty good, actually. My advice to you would actually be to hunt up the Dragon issue 330, I believe it is, which has 20-level progressions for all 5 metallic dragons. Dragon 342, likewise, has the chromatics. These allow you to start your player off at level one, if you so desire. The idea behind using a monster class like that is that I actually allow my players to mix half-and-half with a base class, usually using the 'racial' entry as you would elf, human, or gnome, then use a regular core class, then flip off between them. My standing rule is no less than half, rounding down, of your levels can be of your monster class, until you finish the class. In this case, those dragons have a point where they say Wyrmling or Juvenile or something in bold. They have to stop there, until they reach in in-game time, the next age category, when they have to start taking those levels again. Ok i see so I subtract 10 where even and 11 where odd to get adjustments. No thx on the savage species thing, im using the Draconomicon's rules, plus he wants to be a monk.
Ace_of_time 06-30-07, 12:09 AM	Size mods are added in to the MM so don't add them twice. So that would be Str, con +2, int,cha, wis +4. With Draconomicon you can start him at 1st level. For that I give all +2 on above scores at first and then give a +2 to one ability score per LA level. I also adjust SAs for LA levels so he gets something when not gaining a HD.
Salla 06-30-07, 12:33 AM	Easy way: There were a couple of Dragon Magazines that had full 20 level progressions for all 10 True Dragons in the Monster Manual. See if anybody you know has them. :)
Ecalsneerg 06-30-07, 08:09 AM	Nice the angry 12 year old response. Seems more like "the for god's sake stay on topic" response to me.
WolfHati 06-30-07, 08:41 AM	Nice the angry 12 year old response. Nice the snide 13 year old reesponse. Nice the hypocritical 14 year old response Nice the 13+n year old nth time self recursive externalized internal monologue response. Aaaanyway, back to the topic at hand... If you want to satisfy your player's hunger for playing a dragon, a fun thing to try would be an all-dragon campaign where everybody got to play a different color young dragon. It would definitely require more creativity for the setting and for the challenges, but it could be interesting. Either way the dragon magazine article is probably pretty useful, though having a dragon with class levels would offer more customizability and could be more interesting to play than Mr. generic copper dragon.