Post/Author/DateTime	Post
mervhd 07-09-07, 07:35 PM	My players want to do a dragon game where they get to play dragons. I don't really have a problem with this kind of game, though I have never done a dragon game before. After reading dragon PCs in the draconomicon I thought it would be interesting to have them make two PCs One Dragon and One "standard" for those lovely dungeon crawls. Can anyone give me some advice or let me know what I am getting myself into. Give me a few pointers or something I might be able use to help this run smoothly. Thanks :)
Ace_of_time 07-09-07, 10:52 PM	Are they new players or pros?
d24478667 07-09-07, 10:53 PM	Perhaps the dragon racial classes in Dragon? That makes the rules a lot easier.
Thomar_of_Uointer 07-09-07, 10:57 PM	My players want to do a dragon game where they get to play dragons. I don't really have a problem with this kind of game, though I have never done a dragon game before. After reading dragon PCs in the draconomicon I thought it would be interesting to have them make two PCs One Dragon and One "standard" for those lovely dungeon crawls. Can anyone give me some advice or let me know what I am getting myself into. Give me a few pointers or something I might be able use to help this run smoothly. Thanks :) Well, make darn sure you understand how Level Adjustment and Effective Character Level work first. These are explained very well in the Monster Manual. See if this is useful: http://kobolds-keep.net/Progressions.pdf
runestar 07-09-07, 11:02 PM	Dragon PCs play a lot differently from standard classes. It may be helpful to have 1 in your party as a cohort or something, but a party chock full of them can be very troublesome and tricky to run. For example, all can fly, have good senses and reusable breath weapons, but don't really make very effective melee combatants early on, so balancing an encounter to tailor to their strengths/weaknesses can be tricky, IMO.
Ace_of_time 07-09-07, 11:14 PM	Dragon PCs will use 22 points buy and will run as monster class so they start out at ST level. What I do is divide their HD by their LA and that is how many levels they have to gain before they take a non HD level. I'll post our dragons. She chose chaos dragon and I chose rust dragon. (I'll be the tank this time). Rust Dragon StartingI'm giving All the race mod since they are only +2 str and dex and -2 to int and cha Going to put 2hit die first for the monster class. Then I will gain a non hit die level every odd level until 10th where the dragon will gain hit die every level till he/she get a +1 more on LA. I also break up the abilities so that I gain them on non hit die levels. 3rd/ rusting bite, 7th/ metal resistance, and finally 9th/SR 13 Pyroclastic dragon This one is a little harder. They have a +6 str and +4 con. So I give them +2 on str and con for the start and they will get the rest on non hit die levels, they also get immunity to fire and sonic. She has to gain 1 more hit die to be Wyrmling At 0 years old so she gain 2 hit die, then 1 non hit die, then 2 more hit die then 1 non hit die level every even level till 11th. 3rd/+2 to str and con, 6th/ +2 str, 8th/ Frightful Presence, and 10th/ SR 13 Here is how I do it. If you can find somewhere that has them already made out you can use them. But most players will want that one dragon thats not got one made for it. If they are new players I'd say no for now because dragons are allot more work then other monster classes. these are ex from my online campaign and these should help. Hopefully?
mervhd 07-10-07, 09:27 PM	Are they new players or pros? We have played together for a long time. About 13 years...I think. They are all good players though one of them gets greedy here and there.
Ace_of_time 07-10-07, 09:56 PM	Then they should be able to handle dragons. go for it.
strenoth 07-11-07, 08:19 PM	you know, if they are ALL playing dragons, you might want to drop LA/ECL completly. At least, for normal dragons. If some one wants to play a half-fiend dragon, then add the LA for half-fiend to them, but treat dragon HD as 1-for-1 class levels. LA/ECl is to level the playing field, but here, it's all level already. just a thought.
mervhd 07-11-07, 09:31 PM	you know, if they are ALL playing dragons, you might want to drop LA/ECL completly. At least, for normal dragons. If some one wants to play a half-fiend dragon, then add the LA for half-fiend to them, but treat dragon HD as 1-for-1 class levels. LA/ECl is to level the playing field, but here, it's all level already. just a thought. Thats is what I was thinking about doing, it seemed to all equal out in the end. I could be wrong though. I have always been sckeptical about using these boards but you all have been really helpful. Thanks! :) What does a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon fight for a challenge? :eek:
mervhd 07-11-07, 09:34 PM	I have heard that Dragon PCs is a dumb idea by many DM's, why is this? What are everyones thoughts on Dragon PCs, and why? Thanks Again!
crazy_monkey1956 07-11-07, 09:55 PM	I've always loved the idea and lament never getting a chance to run my 2e Council of Wyrms campaign that I had planned out. Player interest has always been a barrier for me. Always wanted to DM it, never could find players to play it.
Ace_of_time 07-11-07, 11:28 PM	you know, if they are ALL playing dragons, you might want to drop LA/ECL completly. At least, for normal dragons. If some one wants to play a half-fiend dragon, then add the LA for half-fiend to them, but treat dragon HD as 1-for-1 class levels. LA/ECl is to level the playing field, but here, it's all level already. just a thought. that's not a good Idea. The LA is for what CR to use and so they don't gain power to quickly. I play these all the time and a LA doesn't hurt them at all.
Ace_of_time 07-11-07, 11:32 PM	I have heard that Dragon PCs is a dumb idea by many DM's, why is this? What are everyones thoughts on Dragon PCs, and why? Thanks Again! Most DM's don't like the work that goes along with the dragons and some players And Dm's play them when they are not ready to and have a bad game. For the most part they are easy. when they get large or large you most likely will have to go with home brew advan. Most are for small to large PC's.
Kesthol 07-11-07, 11:52 PM	What does a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon fight for a challenge? :eek: A great wyrm red dragon with 9 levels of cleric. Or a great wyrm green dragon with 22 levels of druid :OMG!. Or the entire orcish race... Or a demigod... Or the remainder of its party...
soulnova 07-12-07, 12:04 AM	Well, once I was a Very Young Brass Dragon Cleric of Bahamuth who buried and blessed Artemis Entreri's tomb. Aaah, the memories....!! My DM didnt understood well the Adjustments, but he also didnt understood CR ... so he threw us ordes of mobs way too strong for the rest of the party... So, half the time I was in the front keeping them to slaughter my friends and the other half getting owned. If I recall... my int was 11 or 12 and that made me the less inteligent from the group, I acted childish and never shut up... How many can say that of a dragon? We got lots of fun. Except Artemis Entreri. (6 PCs level 6 vs artemis cr 17... I still dont know how we survive that). I dont accept dragons, because I understand now the rules... but if they beg me enough... and bring me cookies, I'll think about it. xD
Ace_of_time 07-12-07, 12:06 AM	Well, once I was a Very Young Brass Dragon Cleric of Bahamuth who buried and blessed Artemis Entreri's tomb. Aaah, the memories....!! My DM didnt understood well the Adjustments, but he also didnt understood CR ... so he threw us ordes of mobs way too strong for the rest of the party... So, half the time I was in the front keeping them to slaughter my friends and the other half getting owned. If I recall... my int was 11 or 12 and that made me the less inteligent from the group, I acted childish and never shut up... How many can say that of a dragon? We got lots of fun. Except Artemis Entreri. (6 PCs level 6 vs artemis cr 17... I still dont know how we survive that). I dont accept dragons, because I understand now the rules... but if they beg me enough... and bring me cookies, I'll think about it. xD What kind?
soulnova 07-12-07, 12:41 AM	What kind? The dragons I would allow? Uhmm... Wyrmling to Juvenile chromatic dragon (if is Forgotten Realms)... If its a home campaign I would not use alignment on dragons and let them be the color they want (I had once a Red Dragon NPC as a Guardian Lord of a Druid village, he was waaay cool).
Ace_of_time 07-12-07, 12:59 AM	No, What kind of cookies would they have to bring. ha ha! Alignments are more for the DMs anyway and I don't use them with PC's. I let the players pick.
Traszgo 07-12-07, 03:38 AM	My group is doing one-shot stuff between two big games, and I am running a dragon game. Similar to the Council of Wyrms from 2nd Ed, the basic premise is that every 1000 years all the dragons go into heat at once, and if that happens during a year when the Council meets, they set up a nursery and proving grounds. So, everyone is a wyrmling, basically a newborn. I let them have class levels to make up the difference between the highest ECL and the lowest. I said no planar dragons, and no pure chromatic or metallic, just cross-breeds of those. That left gem dragons from MM2 and the odd dragons from Dragons of Faerun. I used the stat system mentioned in MM1, -10 for even stats and -11 for odd, that is the racial mod you add to the rolled stats (I rolled one set, let them assign as they wished). For crossbreeds, I went with the better mental and the worse physical stats of the parent dragons, based of the wyrmling stats in MM1. Highest ECL was a sapphire dragon, ECL 8, with no class levels. There was also a steel dragon, with levels of rogue, so the 5/day polymorph into Human form came in handy for picking locks and disabling traps and so on. The first part of things was to get off the Council island without going through the testing, because that tended to be fatal. =) After the island there was a dungeon crawl. They were all small or tiny, dungeon was no problem. It was a lot of fun, and went longer than just a one-shot, but it is more or less done now. Dragons don't play well together, if roleplayed in any way accurately. Banding together to escape the island, and to deal with a threat to the council island, are one thing, but beyond that they want to go off on their own and build their hoard.
Ace_of_time 07-12-07, 09:36 AM	My group is doing one-shot stuff between two big games, and I am running a dragon game. Similar to the Council of Wyrms from 2nd Ed, the basic premise is that every 1000 years all the dragons go into heat at once, and if that happens during a year when the Council meets, they set up a nursery and proving grounds. So, everyone is a wyrmling, basically a newborn. I let them have class levels to make up the difference between the highest ECL and the lowest. I said no planar dragons, and no pure chromatic or metallic, just cross-breeds of those. That left gem dragons from MM2 and the odd dragons from Dragons of Faerun. I used the stat system mentioned in MM1, -10 for even stats and -11 for odd, that is the racial mod you add to the rolled stats (I rolled one set, let them assign as they wished). For crossbreeds, I went with the better mental and the worse physical stats of the parent dragons, based of the wyrmling stats in MM1. Highest ECL was a sapphire dragon, ECL 8, with no class levels. There was also a steel dragon, with levels of rogue, so the 5/day polymorph into Human form came in handy for picking locks and disabling traps and so on. The first part of things was to get off the Council island without going through the testing, because that tended to be fatal. =) After the island there was a dungeon crawl. They were all small or tiny, dungeon was no problem. It was a lot of fun, and went longer than just a one-shot, but it is more or less done now. Dragons don't play well together, if roleplayed in any way accurately. Banding together to escape the island, and to deal with a threat to the council island, are one thing, but beyond that they want to go off on their own and build their hoard. As I remember they used to send some eggs to the Council for them to raise and that's was how they had different dragons working together.
Templario 07-12-07, 11:08 AM	I played a newborn Copper Dragon between a bunch of good undead (an paladin awakened in skeleton form, a deathless - ghost-like creature, BoED - cleric and something else). Believe me, the only 2 things I surpassed them were my fly speed and my senses. I acted as a scout for the party, simply because my horrible damage and breath could not harm too much the enemies. I want to play a Silver Dragon or even a Chaotic Neutral Red Dragon (Lux, from FR, is a CN Red Dragon :) ), willingly to help people, but by his own way. Gaining respect from metallic dragons, archons and heroic dudes? It would be THE challenge! :D PS: Hey, let your buddies play with Pseudodragons! Easily to work with.
mervhd 07-12-07, 05:44 PM	A great wyrm red dragon with 9 levels of cleric. Or a great wyrm green dragon with 22 levels of druid :OMG!. Or the entire orcish race... Or a demigod... Or the remainder of its party... :eek: the entire orcish race? LMAO :D
darth_borehd 07-12-07, 11:44 PM	I've let players play wyrmling dragons in a regular campaign and it worked out well. Just make sure the ECL is on par with the rest of the party. For an all-dragon campaign, I would pick a level that you want them to start at. A level between 10 and 15 would work out well. The players can decide whether to have more class levels with younger dragons or less class levels with older dragons. (For example, start at 15th level and have an ECL 6 Wyrmling Brass dragon with 9 levels of sorcerer or an ECL 14 young brass dragon with 1 level of sorcerer). One interesting thing with dragon campaigns is that you can have plots that span dozens or hundreds of years. A dragon can watch a human settlement begin with some nomads settling an area and watch it grow into a city. It would be like human beings raising many generations of pets--or cattle. Instead of fighting a human enemy, a dragon could just go find a cave and sleep for a 50-80 years until the human is dead. If your campaign has a modern-style banking system, it could deposit a few coins and wake up in a few decades very wealthy from the interest alone. In some ways it can make D&D more like a strategy game like Civilization. Dragons can pick a race of lesser beings and foster it for its own purposes, like fighting against the like forces of another dragon. Or you can just ignore that aspect of dragons and just have a standard campaign, albeit on a much larger scale (yeah, that's a pun). Dragons could band together temporarily (or maybe there is already a Council of Dragons in your campaign) due to a mutual threat. It could be a powerful dracolich or it could be extra-planar invaders. Just as longer as it is something grander than a standard dungeon crawl.