Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Aryxbez 05-29-07, 03:21 AM	Seriously, why or who would want to play the Dragon born race? I mean the whole roleplaying aspect of your character, the things that made him/her unique, destroyed. Seeing how their persona is all about fighting Tiamat. They look like the type of characters that the party would have to knock out because of him always trying to force the PCs into going with him to due "useful" things. Such as preparing for war, or fighting Tiamat, tracking Tiamat. They also look like the type of people to get a ring of sustenance, and that one Ioun stone, so that they never need to eat,sleep, or even breath. Just so they can fight Tiamat forever and ever. Which makes me wonder, what if Tiamat is slain, that there is no more Followers of Tiamat, what purpose would they serve then? Really, what is really even unique among a dragonborn, or even interesting? By the way, I have read the Dragonborn, within the first 5 words I think it was, I was already disinterested in it. I know in my campaign, just for a certain player on request. That he will be a dragonborn, however I am going to change things so that they are more interesting.
Derren S. 05-29-07, 03:30 AM	I guess you also hate paladins because Dragonborn are just paladins with specialization and a less strict code. And when you bring in their backstories and previous live they van be very interesting to roleplay. WHen you really think that dragonborn would be such mindless evil dragon kiling machines like you describe then you should get a lot more imagination. A dragonborn has as much flavor and can roleplay as much as any other race, maybe even more because of its previous live.
Banatine 05-29-07, 04:28 AM	The dragonborn are good as long as you eliminate/ignore their entire flavour text. Going by their flavour text, why are they not like the elan, who after rebirth are 1st level even if they can remember who they were before? Fortunately they do not come with a code of conduct that they have to follow. I rule that people become dragonborn as a sign of either reverance to bahamut or desire to become more draconic. they are no differant to the people they were in life and have no compulsion to fight evil dragons. they do however have great respect for the metallics and would never harm them.
El_Machinae 05-29-07, 08:14 AM	It's like religion. Some people can have faith, but still be lazy or even have other goals that they pursue in preference to their 'faith's' goal.
Fireclave 05-29-07, 10:06 AM	Seriously, why or who would want to play the Dragon born race? Someone who wanted to play a LA 0 draconic creature and/or wants to play a dedicated fighter/slayer of evil dragon kind. I mean the whole roleplaying aspect of your character, the things that made him/her unique, destroyed. Just because your character's primary, driving goal is X, doesn't mean that everything about your character revolves around X. Nor does it mean that your quest for X will be straight forward and without amusing (and not so amusing) complications. Replace X with any character goal or motivation (money, religion, glory, power, food, booze, revenge, love, redemption, acceptance, honor, self-actualization, ect). Seeing how their persona is all about fighting Tiamat. They look like the type of characters that the party would have to knock out because of him always trying to force the PCs into going with him to due "useful" things. Such as preparing for war, or fighting Tiamat, tracking Tiamat. While, yes, a dragonborn character would be out of place in a party that does not go up against evil dragonkind every once in a while, any character that tries to force their will on the party in such a manner is being a Steve and should be dealt with as such, dragonborn or not. Besides, it is not hard to incorporate motivations a dragonborn to be in a party if you play some of your dragons as "movers and shakers" instead of another random encounter. If the party defeats or halts the plans of the BBEG of the week who has ties to a local (or not so local) dragon nuisance, everybody wins. They also look like the type of people to get a ring of sustenance, and that one Ioun stone, so that they never need to eat,sleep, or even breath. Just so they can fight Tiamat forever and ever. While dragonborn do take their roles seriously, and some dragonborn might be so obsessed with fighting Tiamat as to take such means, pursuing any obsession to this extreme is potentially self-destructive and this mindset will not be shared by the majority. This applies not just to fighting Tiamat, but to any character goal (see above). Which makes me wonder, what if Tiamat is slain, that there is no more Followers of Tiamat, what purpose would they serve then? The same could be asked of the followers of any deity. And considering Tiamat is a goddess, her death, if it is possible to kill her, is probably some distance away (unless of course, you, the DM, say otherwise). Really, what is really even unique among a dragonborn, or even interesting? By the way, I have read the Dragonborn, within the first 5 words I think it was, I was already disinterested in it. A dragonborn can be as interesting as you make it, just like any other race. It's your own personal investment into a character that makes it unique, instead of another average human, ale-loving dwarf with a fake Scottish accent, prankster gnome, dumb half-orc that says "smash", aloof elf, larcenous halfling, half-elf diplomancer, Napoleonic kobold...
Zyrusticae 05-29-07, 12:28 PM	I don't know about the race, but I have to say that the art amused me greatly. Scales, dragon head and all - and the females get to keep their mammaries? Most, most amusing. *Snrk!* Edit: Oh, fine, I'll say something about the race. I dislike the flavor. It reminds me way too much of paladins with a different code of conduct - they have to push Bahamut above all other things, including friends and family. That, to me, is enough to tell me to just throw it all away. If I ever *did* use the race, I'd probably just throw all the fluff away and come up with something entirely different.
Jaxgaret 05-29-07, 12:35 PM	A dragonborn can be as interesting as you make it, just like any other race. It's your own personal investment into a character that makes it unique, instead of another average human, ale-loving dwarf with a fake Scottish accent, prankster gnome, dumb half-orc that says "smash", aloof elf, larcenous halfling, half-elf diplomancer, Napoleonic kobold... QFT. To the OP: Is your problem with the Dragonborn race itself, or with how specific people in your campaign are going to play them? If it's the latter, then this thread belongs on the 'What's a Player to Do' forum.
Sleepwalker13666 05-29-07, 12:38 PM	The text describes a typical dragonborn, not every single one, Even if the pcs wanted to potray them as you described, if it fits their character concept why not?
teclis 05-29-07, 12:43 PM	Seriously, why or who would want to play the Dragon born race? plenty of people. I mean the whole roleplaying aspect of your character, the things that made him/her unique, destroyed. not really, you still have friends and family, and now you have quite a bit more to work with, depending on the footprint bahamut has on your campeign world. Seeing how their persona is all about fighting Tiamat. They look like the type of characters that the party would have to knock out because of him always trying to force the PCs into going with him to due "useful" things. Such as preparing for war, or fighting Tiamat, tracking Tiamat. They also look like the type of people to get a ring of sustenance, and that one Ioun stone, so that they never need to eat,sleep, or even breath. Just so they can fight Tiamat forever and ever. eh, I don't see why they would have to go that far, as others have mentioned, they are much like paladins, with a different code. Which makes me wonder, what if Tiamat is slain, that there is no more Followers of Tiamat, what purpose would they serve then? what are the odds that a diety is slain in your campeign world? how many dieties have been slain? and the answer is: they would be in much the same position as paladins and clerics who's patron diety is slain. Really, what is really even unique among a dragonborn, or even interesting? By the way, I have read the Dragonborn, within the first 5 words I think it was, I was already disinterested in it. then the answer to you would be "nothing" but in our campeigns, dragonborn have been interesting on multiple occasions. I know in my campaign, just for a certain player on request. That he will be a dragonborn, however I am going to change things so that they are more interesting. I think you are being silly, they were already intersting, and you are going to change them so your pre-concieved notions no longer apply.
Aryxbez 05-29-07, 03:55 PM	The dragonborn are good as long as you eliminate/ignore their entire flavour text. Going by their flavour text, why are they not like the elan, who after rebirth are 1st level even if they can remember who they were before? thanks for the replies guys, but when you take away the flavor text entirely from the dragonborn, then you are not really playing a dragonborn now are ye? Also I haven't read the Elan race. not really, you still have friends and family, and now you have quite a bit more to work with, depending on the footprint bahamut has on your campaign world. If I am not mistaken,I am pretty sure when you become a dragonborn, the whole friends and family thing becomes meaningless to you unless they are also fighting tiamat. I don't own the Races of the dragon book, so I am not totally sure on that. what are the odds that a deity is slain in your campaign world? how many deities have been slain? and the answer is: they would be in much the same position as paladins and clerics who's patron deity is slain. Really this is just a what if question, Wondering would they change themselves back to their original race? would they commit senpoku? My best guess is that bahamaut would transform them back to their original form to give them their life back then the answer to you would be "nothing" but in our campaigns, dragonborn have been interesting on multiple occasions. I would like to see them being interesting, surely you have any examples? I think you are being silly, they were already intersting, and you are going to change them so your pre-concieved notions no longer apply. It is possible I am being silly, I am pretty silly person at times. Otherwise not sure how I am really being silly, my notions is what I got from reading the description, since the description of the dragonborn tells you everything about them, that is what I would kinda have to go by. Also another reason they are going to be changed is just to put a little spin on it, add something to the dragonborn. Really the only reason the pc wants to be it is because he likes dragons and has no personality for his character. At least from what he told me.
AZNsupermarket 05-30-07, 01:02 AM	How bout the fact that from a power stand-point, they are one of the most powerful and versatile races ever made.
Fireclave 05-30-07, 01:08 AM	How bout the fact that from a power stand-point, they are one of the most powerful and versatile races ever made. But consider that their main foes are some of the most powerful creatures in existance.
Soltares 05-30-07, 01:22 AM	The 'race' seemed a bit overly specific for my tastes. I'd have preferred to see some sort of dragontouched champion that could be tweaked for the various dragon types / powers. Instead of making it Bahamut based, which, IMO, seems more Prestige Class territory, a selection of LA+0 dragonborn templates based on the five metallic and five chromatic dragons would have been a welcome sight (and perhaps five based on the gem dragons, as a web enhancement specifically oriented for psionic users). Each dragon type would have found a way to use their sorcery and a special dragon-only feat to empower champions with a tiny fraction of their power, giving them scales (of the appropriate color) and some small resistance to their energy type. The ritual enacted by the dragon would include some 'fine print' not generally told to the participants, such as that the resistance doesn't apply to the breath of the patron themself, and that any bonus to resist a dragons frightful presence, or similar abilities that make the dragon-touched more useful in fighting the draconic enemies of their patron conveniently fail to work if turned against their patron... Well below half-dragons, and even below draconic creatures, in strength, these 'dragonforged' would be pretty much identical, similar to dragonborn, with only the resistance type, and the skill bonuses changing. It wouldn't have to be 10 or 15 or a bazillion seperate racial write-ups, just one with a lot of flexibility, depending on the nature of the dragon patron.
Korlall 05-30-07, 01:27 AM	I will only say that they are MANY character features (race or even class) that are really adapted for certain situations and others not. The dragon born of bahamut is one by any other. Why playing a Knight of the Chalice (Killing Fiends machine) in a Orc-setting campaign... Why palying an Aventi(aquatic race) in a (Desert-land)campaign ? Why playing a wizard in a "downpowered magic plane" campaign? Why chosing a Frostmage in a "no-cold" or even "no temperate" climate (where all your class features are quite useless) ? Dragonborn of bahamut is the same thing... If the DM runs a campaign in a setting that chromatic dragons are frequent, it just fit it, that's it. as the Knight of the chalice fits a campaign in the hells of Baator, and Aventi in Aquatic campaign. Besides that, they are other reason I see to chose this race... 1- Some player loves to have the killing dragon character... Even if it's the first job of the dragonborn, the campaign doesn't have to be all that. Even if the dragonborn is not always out hunting dragons, he knows that when aiding people around, following the other characters, he is likely to face a dragon someday. And if he jsut kills a single dragon in all it's life, Bahamut would be thankful anyway... 2- Dragonborn has not to be permanent... it's more a template than a race (even if they qualify it as race... whatever) Any character( or only humanoid maybe) can become a dragonborn at any time... jsut by making the ritual. And if the new form doesn't fit, Bahamut can suppress it. Maybe the dm can run out a campaign in which dragons suddently appears or attack a nation. Fighters of some race then answer the call of bahamut, besoming nice warriors against the attack. When the war ends, Bahamut see no more need of keeping these warriors within its ranks (same for the characters) and then turn them back to normal forms. 3- Dragonborn of Bahamut are "the chosen hero of a Lawful-Good deities"... Even if the character changes, I do not agree that his friends or family will put him aside because he's "weird". People (good people...) should be pleasured by the arrival of a dragonborn in their village, because they know they are there for goodness. Other reason could be good as well, I jsut wrote the ones that jsut came through my mind.
DragonGhoula 05-30-07, 01:13 PM	My first post....Yea! I've played a Dragonborn character before and in the game, they tend to be pretty good, at least by my reckoning. I can't relate to most of the flavor stuff though because I rarely bring flavor into the game, and when I was playing my Dragonborn, I was a sorcerer and just used the Dragonborn to gain a breath weapon and wings. It was awesome just to jump around, loosing off spells and breaths in equal amounts....*reminices* good times, good times. :)
danzibr 05-31-07, 11:30 AM	senpoku... lol Anyways, although I am not very experienced, I would have to say I entirely agree with Korlall, among others. When I DM, I ask what kind of characters my players are going to make, then modify the campaign to fit the players' interests. It may take a little more planning on my part, but I believe it makes the game more enjoyable for them (and hence, for me). So let's say someone makes a Dragonborn. Maybe they make a Mongrelfolk Dragonborn just for the +6 Con with no LA, but maybe they want to do some dragon hunting. Either way, I'll throw in a few evil dragon quests and such. If they don't play their role properly (not caring about evil dragons), then they lose their Dragonborn... like the text. Dan
Korlall 05-31-07, 11:51 AM	Anyways, although I am not very experienced, I would have to say I entirely agree with Korlall, among others. Dan Thank you
Aryxbez 05-31-07, 01:51 PM	So I have come to the conclusion of this, those who play dragonborn either play it in dragon based settings. Also those who pretty much do away with the flavor text, which then is it really a dragonborn? take away the flavor text of a dwarf and you got squat of a race.
forsaken1111 05-31-07, 08:11 PM	Seriously, why or who would want to play the Dragon born race? As an answer, here's a question: Seriously, why or who would want to play the Elf race? They're fluffy trehugging stupid fairypants people who do nothing but babble about magic and nature, and try to dress in such a way as to make it impossible to determine their sex. Their only defining physical characteristic is a pair of pointy ears and a hippy mindset. Honestly who wants to prance through forests and sniff daisy's?
Aryxbez 06-01-07, 01:23 PM	The Elf race is actually a race, while the dragonborn is something you become. besides, not all elves sniff daisies all day.
forsaken1111 06-01-07, 01:35 PM	The Elf race is actually a race, while the dragonborn is something you become. Dragonborn is actually a race. Its a created race, just like elan. besides, not all elves sniff daisies all day. And not all dragonborn are fanatical dragonslaying machines who care for nothing else. That was my whole point.
Aryxbez 06-01-07, 02:15 PM	I don't know, It even says in the whole description that it pretty much replaces your personality. Also I haven't read the Elan, so I wouldn't have a clue on them. Guessing they are some race in psionics books. As far as I am aware, it is heavily implied like a paladin code of sorts for you to be this persona. Even says in the book that you are giving up much of your former life.
forsaken1111 06-01-07, 02:27 PM	I don't know, It even says in the whole description that it pretty much replaces your personality. Also I haven't read the Elan, so I wouldn't have a clue on them. Guessing they are some race in psionics books. As far as I am aware, it is heavily implied like a paladin code of sorts for you to be this persona. Even says in the book that you are giving up much of your former life. Yes, but it doesn't say you become a zealous maniac bent on the immediate destruction of evil dragonkind. You're still a rational person and can understand that some things are necessary. It also doesn't say you would constantly push your party to go "hunt teh dragonz!" but if you heard or saw evidence of evil dragons in the area, you would certainly WANT to go.
Aryxbez 06-01-07, 04:07 PM	Quite true, however they can be crazy as long there is a chance of victory. Otherwise quite right on your points.
forsaken1111 06-01-07, 04:11 PM	Quite true, however they can be crazy as long there is a chance of victory. Otherwise quite right on your points. Yep, the real point I'm making though is a Dragonborn would have just as wide a range of personality types as a normal race, they simply feel a bit more compelled to hunt evil dragons and their minions. They are no more or less likely to be insane, though they do have strong tendancies towards good.
Aryxbez 06-01-07, 04:26 PM	I'm sure there is a wee bit of persona, but not much since dragonborn pretty much presets most of your character persona.
forsaken1111 06-01-07, 04:41 PM	I'm sure there is a wee bit of persona, but not much since dragonborn pretty much presets most of your character persona. Maybe so, but nowhere does it say you become a fanatic zealot who can think of nothing besides fighting tiamat. Such a person would be considered at best unbalanced and most times insane, and would not be in an adventuring party unless they promised to kill evil dragons. I think you're reading too much into the fluff, honestly. If I followed the fluff text on eberron halflings to the letter and made a stereotypical one, I'd be a dinosaur-riding savage who stabs things a lot.
utilitarian 06-01-07, 04:46 PM	By your reasoning Gnomes are also completely flavorless, as they are clearly all about killing Giants and worshipping Garl Glittergold on account of thier specialized background for dealing with giants and being created by the aforemeantioned god. Just because a perticular race has a peritulcar history or eninimity with a force doesn't meant a character's entire life revolves around it.
Aryxbez 06-01-07, 05:01 PM	however, you Become a Dragonborn, a Gnome the character is born and raised. Says even books like races of stone show Gnomes other Personas. A dragonborn person has given up a good amount of personality, like a dragonborn no longer will care for their lover.
forsaken1111 06-01-07, 05:17 PM	however, you Become a Dragonborn, a Gnome the character is born and raised. Says even books like races of stone show Gnomes other Personas. A dragonborn person has given up a good amount of personality, like a dragonborn no longer will care for their lover. I don't recall it saying the dragonborn forgets their entire past. Perhaps old lovers and relationships change or diminish, but you don't lose all memory of past events. You still had a childhood, etc. They're much like Elan, who can remember their old life but feel no compulsion to follow their old beliefs and often cut ties to family and friends.
Beefypistolsnipe 06-01-07, 08:38 PM	I don't own Races of Dragon, so can anyone tell me how precisely the dragonborn are made?...or do they keep the ritual vague like the Elan?
forsaken1111 06-01-07, 08:40 PM	I don't own Races of Dragon, so can anyone tell me how precisely the dragonborn are made?...or do they keep the ritual vague like the Elan? I'm AFB right now but the gist is: Those chosen feel a 'calling' from bahamut. They then go into an artificial egg they construct which costs about 100gp in materials. A while later (Few days or something, i believe) they emerge from the egg changed.
darkdragonk 06-02-07, 01:08 PM	Dragonborn......Why? Because there are too many Dragon Fan Boys:P
Razorgrin 06-02-07, 05:14 PM	...they have to push Bahamut above all other things... I created an Exemplar of Bahamut character once, just to see how obsessive a particular character could become. He was a (gestalt) dragonborn Favored Soul (with the Bahamut-devotion option from one of the Completes)//Paladin who later took levels in both Vassal of Bahamut (Exalted Deeds) and Platinum Knight (Draconomicon). He wasn't a very optimized character, but he certainly loved Bahamut.
Threefists 06-03-07, 03:18 AM	Without resorting to bringing out the +5 Greatclub of thread bashing, Let me explain (With the Races of the Dragon Book sitting before me as I type) exactly what the Dragonborn is all about. Essentially anyone who has run afoul of Evil/Chromatic Dragons could become a Dragonborn. Bahamut is that kind of God, he'll accept anyone of good alignment, be they Chaotic, Neutral or Lawful, if they are willing to give their all to fighting Tiamat's machinations. This doesn't mean just smiting Chromatic Dragons left right and center, but dealing with her Humanoid cultists as well as those who ally with her cults, such as Hexetorian temples, Evil nations and random monsters. Dragonborn are less rigid than Paladins, but more focused towards a ultimate goal, which is the destruction of Tiamat and her brood. Stopping a slaving ring, destroying a nest of Half-Demon Ankhegs, the entire Path of Worms adventure, anything that stops evil spreading or growing can be a task that a Dragonborn will embrace with relish. The more a Dragonborn destroys or stops the evils of the world, the more people that can turn their lives to good purposes, be it farming, crafting or fighting for noble ideals. A Dragonborn might go her entire life without directly fighting a Chromatic Dragon, but every action will be made towards a future where Tiamat and her brood are driven from the world. Every Ogre Tribe that is brought into the faith of Kord or Elhona is a tribe that will stand against the Chromatics rather than serve under them, every farmer saved from bandits will be able to help feed a army of paladins that might one day march on to the Gates of Hell itself to take the fight directly to Tiamat. Essentially a Dragonborn is Exalted without all the hang-ups of Exalted Feats.
Fireclave 06-03-07, 03:37 AM	Essentially a Dragonborn is Exalted without all the hang-ups of Exalted Feats. Hurray!
danzibr 06-06-07, 11:56 PM	Another reason: Dragonborn Mongrelfolk. +6 to Con, LA +0. Dan
jubjubdestroyer 06-14-07, 05:11 PM	The ppoint of this is when a character ha shis village destroyed, familly killed, etc... by evil dragonkind if you are strong willed enough Bahamut grants you powers to help fight evil dragonkind and avenge whatever tragedy befell you in your "past life". YOU ARE STILL THE SAME PERSON just with a different body longer lifespan and many other good bonuses. Plus you still resembel your "old" race.