Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gareshra 01-11-08, 10:25 PM	Okay, so I have a question. I was sitting around earlier and decided to roll up a dragon character, at ECL 10. I did this mainly because I've always thought it would be fun to play a dragon as a character, especially from a roleplaying perspective(Roleplaying a wyrmling means you're basically a superintelligent child). However, before I decided to use their character(or another dragon) in play, I decided to play test it. However, I was wondering, how exactly does a dragon fight? The character I made was a bronze wyrmling with 6 dragon HD, and 4 levels lost to ECL. However, I found that the wyrmling was basically okay at everything, but not very great at anything in particular. Although it was pretty versatile, it lacked any real defining strengths. Yes, it could fight in melee okay, but against heavily armored foes it rarely struck. It had a fair amount of hit points, but with only 6 HD it couldn't take too much of a beating. It could fly and maneuver around, giving it a definite advantage in aerial combat, but even still the save DC for it's breath weapons was low enough to render it largely useless. The only strategy with merit was to do flyby attacks on unsuspecting foes, but even that was pretty weak against a foe with a ranged attack. In sum, how does a dragon fit into a party, and what role does it take?
runestar 01-12-08, 12:26 AM	Draconomicon does a useful summary of a dragon's capabilities. With a fast flight speed, lowlight vision and darkvision, you make an excellent scout. An excellent skill list lets you assume the role of backup skill monkey. Though to be honest, only the gold and red seem to make worthy PCs, if only because of their excellent stat bonuses (which help to mitigate LA), and they become large pretty fast, giving them extra attacks. The shadow dragon is also quite good because of its useful breath weapon (negative lvs!). Basically, I think it excels mainly in support roles, not combat ones.:(
Gareshra 01-12-08, 01:09 AM	Erm...that LA also rises with the stat gains, thereby making the stretch even worse. That said, gold dragons have some really nice natural abilities which compliment them pretty well, I think.
ZiggZagg 01-12-08, 01:18 AM	Why not just drop the LA? That's what we are going to do in an upcoming campaign. Take a look at it all, and it doesn't really measure out to being super ppowered at all if you just use their HD as their ECL
Gareshra 01-12-08, 01:25 AM	I'd like to, but consider what that means. All of their saves are good. Their BAB is as a fighter. They have d12 hit dice. They get stat bonuses in every stat except dex, with the stronger dragon types. They get natural abilities, 6+ int skills, flight with a speed of at least 100...I mean, they may not be strong due to the level adjustment, but removing it entirely is pretty much a guarantee to create an overpowered character.
ZiggZagg 01-12-08, 01:33 AM	If that idea doesn't tickle your fancy, try cutting the LA in half then. I believe that a dragon's ECL are far too high. I have played one before. I did alright, but that is because I mixed in a few pc levels because i was using the rules in the Draconomicon.
runestar 01-12-08, 02:00 AM	Bearing in mind that a gold dragon PC still uses the normal PC stat generation rules and gets gear according to his ECL (which really go a long way), I think it should come out balanced. I have not examined how much its gear can help at every lv, but at lv20, its stats look very impressive (tried statting it out once just for fun). Amulet of mighty fists +5 adds +5 to-hit/damage to all its attacks. Its +14 str just makes up for the +6bab lost to the LA and -1 size penalty. Multiattack + improved multiattack gives it 6 attacks at full bab. You are quite feat starved, but should still be able to work in power attack, and 2 rapidstrikes (for your claws and wings). Throw in haste, and you can muster 9 attacks on a full-attack. Bracers of armour+8 (or +5 mithral chain barding of heavy fortification), bellyspike? of NA+5, ring of prot+5 and animated +5 mithral buckler gives it an AC of 46 when combined with its starting +13NA. If you are using bracers, throw in monk's belt (double its price to make it slotless) for wis mod to AC, pushing it well over the +50AC limit. This should help make up for your subpar hp (even with your con boost). Try to get displacement somehow (50% miss chance means twice the effective hp vs attacks).:) I believe there is a headband of excellence or something which gives +6str/dex/wis (great stat synergy abilities). I think it might actually be a bit too good if LA is done away.
Rulebook 01-12-08, 02:03 AM	i think the silver makes the best PC, because of that shapeshifting ability. remember dragons = targets to just about everybody, so camoflauge is king. especially an ecl 10 dragon... wyrmlings just arent that tough.
celestialkin 01-12-08, 02:13 AM	Since a character can use an item with any spell/power from their spell list, even though they will not gain said spell until much later, I had my little copper bundle of joy use two of those wand bracer from Dungeonscape. They hold five wands, and you can retrieve one as a free action. So basically he stocked up on wands and had some "fun" with that. The wand of create trap was the best. DM ruled I could change things up, so I made the trigger activated spear (or was it dart) one throw pies instead. :D However, I have been dying to play a Song Dragon. Sadly I will not get the chance before the coming of 4.0. :rolleyes: At least Fluffy made for a hell of a last PC. Very grateful I was allowed to play a dragon as a PC.
runestar 01-12-08, 02:20 AM	Hate to be a wet blanket, but doesn't draconomicon (page 24, or so it seems) state that dragons cannot use wands and the like until they actually have spellcasting capabilities? So you are stuck with UMD...
celestialkin 01-12-08, 02:33 AM	Hate to be a wet blanket, but doesn't draconomicon (page 24, or so it seems) state that dragons cannot use wands and the like until they actually have spellcasting capabilities? So you are stuck with UMD... Damn. Ignorance was bliss. :( Well, that kinda leaves Dragon PCs with nothing to do in combat.
Gareshra 01-12-08, 03:18 AM	Well, that kinda leaves Dragon PCs with nothing to do in combat. Which is exactly the problem with dragon PCs. They can do a little bit of everything, but nothing well, and versatility in combat doesn't do that well as out of combat versatility, which dragons don't have as much of besides flight. Anyways, the build I tried with the bronze dragon was based on flyby attacks. I found that it decimated anything without a ranged attack, so I guess it really depends how you adjust your dragon with feats.
Gareshra 01-12-08, 03:19 AM	Also, Copper dragons are possibly the most retarded dragons I've ever seen. They have spider climb as an ability. WTF is up with that? Yeah though, I'm looking through the basic dragon types again and starting to think that their LA is unfounded and dumb. White dragons, for instance. What does that +2 LA for a wyrmling get you? -4 int, -4 cha(for a dragon, no less!), +2 con, flight, a 1d6 breath weapon DC 12. icewalking, immunity to cold, vulnerability to fire, and 2 natural armor. So a level 5 white dragon has 3d12 hit dice, with +3 hit points from con. It's vulnerable to the most common elemental damage in the game, has negligible natural armor...holy crap this is weak. I'm thinking that half ECL idea might be a good one, because this is just rediculous for some dragon types.
runestar 01-12-08, 03:20 AM	Probably for use in enclosed spaces where flight is not an option.
Gareshra 01-12-08, 03:28 AM	Most PC dragons will be playing with average maneuverability, and that can be upped to good with the improved flight feat which all dragons qualify for naturally, due to their high flight speed. Dragon characters should have very little maneuverability problems given a little tinkering.
The_Cheeseman 01-12-08, 03:33 AM	I played a gold dragon in an epic game (starting level of 21st, I believe). I was a dragon who at one time served as the mount of a paladin/vassal of Bahamut, but the knight was tragically slain by the BBEG of the campaign. The dragon swore revenge, and took a vow of poverty, giving up its hoard and all worldly possessions until it had defeated the BBEG. I began as a mature adult (CR 19, 26 HD, about ECL 36 assuming the LA increases bu +1 at every age category) with the experience total of a 21st-level character. I then advanced it by 1 HD every new level. After level 30, I started into the Dragon Ascendant PrC from Draconomicon, but that's neither here nor there. Though the Vow of Poverty did limit my power somewhat, I still found the character to be rather... Unexciting. I had a ton of HP and hit like a truck, along with some useful spells, but playing alongside a party of characters who had lots of class levels and interesting PrCs, I was rather bored. Not to say my character wasn't good, it performed the role of melee beat-stick, HP-sponge, tank admirably. But it was just boring to play. Every round was, "Fly over to enemy, Bite, Claw, Claw, Wing, Wing, Tail slap. Your turn." None of my spells were high enough level to accomplish more than simple buffing or misc effects, so all I could really do in combat against CR-appropriate encounters was tear things up in melee. Anyways, that character got boring pretty fast, so I wasn't at all sad to see the campaign draw to a close. I can't say exactly how it would work out at lower levels, but I don't think you'll be too terribly impressed with the character. Unless you're just trying to build a simple tank/melee type. I guess it would be fine in that case, just not a lot of options.
Malicea 01-12-08, 04:05 AM	I played a gold dragon in an epic game (starting level of 21st, I believe). I was a dragon who at one time served as the mount of a paladin/vassal of Bahamut, but the knight was tragically slain by the BBEG of the campaign. The dragon swore revenge, and took a vow of poverty, giving up its hoard and all worldly possessions until it had defeated the BBEG. I began as a mature adult (CR 19, 26 HD, about ECL 36 assuming the LA increases bu +1 at every age category) with the experience total of a 21st-level character. I then advanced it by 1 HD every new level. After level 30, I started into the Dragon Ascendant PrC from Draconomicon, but that's neither here nor there. Though the Vow of Poverty did limit my power somewhat, I still found the character to be rather... Unexciting. I had a ton of HP and hit like a truck, along with some useful spells, but playing alongside a party of characters who had lots of class levels and interesting PrCs, I was rather bored. Not to say my character wasn't good, it performed the role of melee beat-stick, HP-sponge, tank admirably. But it was just boring to play. Every round was, "Fly over to enemy, Bite, Claw, Claw, Wing, Wing, Tail slap. Your turn." None of my spells were high enough level to accomplish more than simple buffing or misc effects, so all I could really do in combat against CR-appropriate encounters was tear things up in melee. Anyways, that character got boring pretty fast, so I wasn't at all sad to see the campaign draw to a close. I can't say exactly how it would work out at lower levels, but I don't think you'll be too terribly impressed with the character. Unless you're just trying to build a simple tank/melee type. I guess it would be fine in that case, just not a lot of options. I think playing a younger dragon actually makes it much more interesting, as well as the lower levels of play. You can be a superb scout, as already mentioned, with so many skills points and spot/search/listen as class skills. If you like, you can work as a team with another PC and act as a mount. With 6 + int mod skills, I can't see playing one being too boring for a creative player. And yes, the VoP probably didn't help ;) On a separate note, Golds as well as Silvers get Alternate Form from wyrmling. Being unable to use spell completion or spell trigger items at this age is not a big deal since you have UMD as a class skill and a max of 11 ranks for it immediately. Max out Disguise, Diplomacy, Gather Info, combine with the fact you can assume the shape of any 0HD animal or humanoid indefinitely, 3/day and you have a great party face also.
zook1shoe666 01-12-08, 11:22 AM	check out the Pyroclaustic Dragon (Drac) secondary breath weapon is disintegration line ;)
CrimsonPhoenix 01-14-08, 02:13 AM	First of all, I'm going to agree with some of the above posters in saying that dragon LAs do not work properly and result in being significantly weaker than the rest of the party as is. I have played several such characters (almost a specialty of mine, of sorts) and can tell you it is frustrating, not to mention just plain dumb, that our party's Paladin could take 1 feat and have a dragon mount that is statistically BETTER than the PC. After noting that situation and explaining the ridiculousness to our DM and the rest of the group (we are all local friends, so it's not a big deal) the LA was scrapped and I've used straight HD ever since. This definitely walks a thin line with gold and to a slightly lesser extent red due to large stat bonuses and the full BAB/save progression, but it is mitigated by the fact that your combat options are inferior to an equal level character with all class levels, due to the numerous class abilities you miss out on. In effect, the bonuses you are paying for with LA are being paid for twice: once with the LA itself, and again with racial HD (as opposed to class levels that grant abilities). Basically, you can think of the dragon race as a 'class' and the racial abilities as 'class abilities' and it comes out close to even. Now, this may or may not work in your group whatsoever. If most of the players are less experienced, such abilities clearly seem overpowered. After all, a fighter doesn't get D12 HD, ALL good saves, and the ability to fly, a breath weapon, stat bonuses, etc. However, when comparing a dragon to a reasonably optimized (note the 'reasonably': this does not mean near-perfect or even expert level optimization, it just means building your character to a strong purpose) the dragon has far less potential to be powerful. As for the other concern about dragons not having a definite role in combat - this is somewhat true. The post concerning the boring tanking that the character generally did is partially true, since it is the main strength of a dragon in close quarters combat (CQC). However, if you want to have a bit more impact, roll a silver or bronze dragon and optimize for alternate breath. Take Quicken Breath and Heighten Breath (don't bother with the damage based feats, we won't be using that breath weapon), and get a decent score in Con (+7 or so modifier will do, not difficult seeing as we will have a large racial bonus there). Now we can use our breath as a free action, and increase the save DC from 23 (assuming level 12, a good starting level for dragons) to 30 using the full effect of heighten. We can't use the breath again for 1d4+11 rounds, but the battle could well already be over. We have basically become a shock trooper for the party. We are the guy at the front of the squad who kicks the door open and throws a grenade in to clear out the baddies. We can fight just like the other soldiers, but we pack an extra punch at the beginning to soften up the foes (not to mention demoralize them, have you asked your DM about Intimidate circumstance bonuses lately?) before engaging them. Not a bad tactic to use in CQC situations, and it definitely befits an intelligent creature to use such a tactic to avoid excessive danger in combat (after all, nobody has to get hurt if all the enemies are unconscious or paralyzed before they even got to raise their weapons). Anyway, that's just my 2 cents. Every gaming group has their own way of playing, and combining the method of ignoring LA with the strategy I mentioned may well be completely unbalanced for your gaming group. I, for one, care more about the RP side of things, and most of my group isn't terribly concerned about who kills the most baddies or looks the best at the end of the day (unless their characters care about that). The other part of my group is about the opposite, and it works well there too. Everyone is mostly optimized and the dragon is simply rather balanced compared to these characters who are all capable of 200ish damage rounds in the level range of 12-15. Congratulations for managing to read this textbook of a post, have a cookie. :cookie:
Wymarc 01-19-08, 02:54 PM	you might want to check out the level progressions in Dragon magazine metallic are in 320
Lord_Of_The_Abyss 01-19-08, 08:55 PM	check out the Pyroclastic Dragon (Drac) secondary breath weapon is disintegration line ;) HECK YES!!! (I think we're some of the only people to realize that :D.) However, if you want real power, try a half-shadow dragon/fang dragon!!! You get Constitution Drain, Increased Damage, Trip, Sound Imitation, Detect/Read Magic at will, a breath weapon that bestows negative levels, size tiny with strength +8 and constitution +4, and an ECL of 9...all as a wyrmling!!!!!! P.S. thanks for the cookie :D!
Captain_Kobold 01-19-08, 10:14 PM	A lot of the LA for Dragons comes from their base abilities as True Dragons. With their superior range low-light and darkvision, high skill points and other sensory abilities, you are pretty much the best scout a party could have. Add to that your flight and other abilities, and you have a rather effective party member. Many of the above posters are correct in that where the dragon has problems is in lack of specialisation. It can't cast as even a paladin or ranger can, its damage reduction, natural armour, constitution bonus and spell resistance have trouble keeping up with its lack of hit dice. Taking a level in rogue to pick up trapfinding could turn it into the 'skilled' member of the group, but its breath weapon and many natural attacks could not match a true rogue in damage potential. If you play fairly basic, combat-heavy games with little tactical variation, the LA of a dragon character is certainly not going to match up to the damage capability of a full-class character. It is best used as the fifth member in a more varied game to take advantage of its many special abilities, but inability to do any one thing well.
ZiggZagg 01-19-08, 10:28 PM	Combine dropping the LA and add in Gestalt...now we can get an interesting character. Get red that advances only by hd and on the other side go wizard/ur priest/mystic thurge for some heavy blasting and destruction capabilities with the ability to buff yourself incredibly should things actually reach you:cool: