Dragons as characters? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Dragons as characters? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
BW879
07-16-07, 06:21 PM First off, I hope I'm posting this in the right place.
Awhile back one of my friends showed me a print out he had of how to play and level a dragon as a PC.
I have a player in my current group that's interested in doing this with his character but I can't find the info for it any where. Can someone point me in the right direction to find this info?
Thanks for any help.
somogyi
07-16-07, 06:31 PM in the draconomicon the have the ecl's for dragons of most types and ages. but the ecl is very high.
Kesthol
07-16-07, 06:53 PM :w00t: :dragon: :w00t:

1) Dragon issues 320 and 332 (for metallic and chromatic dragon 20-level monster class progressions)

2) Races of the Dragon (dracon-blooded creatures, including half-dragons)

3) The Draconimicon (dragons, usually best for mid- to high- level parties)

4) Dragon Magic (I don't have this, but I know it has a bit)

5) Look on the boards. I have a prestige class for half-dragon dragon progression posted at the link in my sig. There are a couple other dragon classes out there. There are also a couple other dragon PC threads you might want to browse through.

Hope that helped.
bobothechimp
07-16-07, 07:27 PM The monster manual has hit dice and level adjustments for true dragons.
Faustwizard
07-16-07, 08:19 PM Im sure there is more stuff out there than the peopl have already given you. try some of the older books, and maby convert it to 3.5, but thats all I can say. If you do get something good, then plaese send me something. If you do, I will send you a paper I wrote that can support dragons through evolution.
Lord_Of_The_Abyss
07-16-07, 09:43 PM in the draconomicon the have the ecl's for dragons of most types and ages. but the ecl is very high.

I disagree, the spiked felldrake is a large dragon with only 6 racial hit die (one less than even the dragonkin) a bite that deals 2d6+5 damage, 2 claws which deal 1d8+2 damage, and a spike attack which is ranged and deals 1d8+5, also, if you use the whole "subtract 10 from even ability scores and 11 from odd ones to figure out the creatures ability score adjustments," you'd end up with +10 str, +4 dex, +4 con, +0 int, +2 wis, and -2 cha. And the best part about it, the spiked felldrake only has LA+2 which means an ECL of 8! Where you're only lacking flight (but with a speed of 40 and a natural ranged attack, who cares?).

Do any of you think i should make a thread about the possible brokenness of this?
Kesthol
07-16-07, 11:20 PM Do any of you think i should make a thread about the possible brokenness of this?

No... there are enough people shouting about all the broken things. Just boost the LA if you think it is "broken". And remember, it probably won't need to (or be able to) use weapons or armor--I think that that is worth a significant amount. Comparing it to an 8th level fighter, it may be somewhat more powerful. I think LA of +3 would be justified, and a LA of +4 is pushing it. Plus, it looks like it was intended to be a mount or cohort primarily; the LA probably wouldn't need touching in this case.
Muglock
07-17-07, 06:30 AM It was definitley created to be a riding mount.
Lord_Of_The_Abyss
07-17-07, 08:50 AM It was definitley created to be a riding mount.

Yes but it has the spiked felldrake under the list of lesser dragon PC's. And Kesthol, while it is true that dragons' hands aren't flexible enough to wield weapons or write, there is always the Jaws of the Dragon, Dragon Armor of Invincibility, and the Claws of the Ripper magic items created for dragon use in particular (though other creatures can still use them).
Kesthol
07-17-07, 09:16 PM Yes, well, most dragon-fitted items are extremely costly. That is a fairly good balancing factor. And some "dragons" have hands flexible enough to write--humanoid half-dragons.

So there may have been a "typo" in the Draconimicon you want to correct. FIX IT! *makes stick note reading '+3 LA' and puts it on page 160, 2nd column, over the 'Felldrake, Spiked' entry* Happy? No? *crosses out '3' and writes in '4' on the sticky*

Having said all that, :)
NerdNumber1
07-17-07, 11:33 PM I'm not sure how balanced this is, and it might need a lot of tweeking, but:

http://www.kobolds-keep.net/Progressions.pdf

I have been thinking of a similiar idea for a while and would love to make a full 20 hit die, 20 level draconic progression.
runestar
07-18-07, 12:01 AM Yes, well, most dragon-fitted items are extremely costly. That is a fairly good balancing factor. And some "dragons" have hands flexible enough to write--humanoid half-dragons.
Only barding would cost extra. Other magic items, such as rings, amulets etc cost the same.:)
ZerianTheKeeper
07-18-07, 11:15 AM A Gold wyrmling only has a ECL 12 (8HD+ 4LA), I have a Monster class progression for the Gold to 12th level somewhere. I'll look around and see about posting it.
Kesthol
07-18-07, 08:43 PM I'm not sure how balanced this is, and it might need a lot of tweeking, but:

http://www.kobolds-keep.net/Progressions.pdf

I have been thinking of a similiar idea for a while and would love to make a full 20 hit die, 20 level draconic progression.

IMHO, the dragon class here is significantly underpowered. The half-dragon, with +3 LA, can supplant 5-7 levels of this class--and you end up with better special abilities, and maybe better abilities overall. This class appears to be the equivalent of the NPC classes in the DMG.

I would love to see your class, however. Good luck! My attempt became a PrC for half-dragons (see sig). The Draconomicon and the Dragon magazines 320 and 332 seemed to have acceptable (some seemed to even be good) ways to progress as a true dragon.
NerdNumber1
07-18-07, 10:17 PM IMHO, the dragon class here is significantly underpowered. The half-dragon, with +3 LA, can supplant 5-7 levels of this class--and you end up with better special abilities, and maybe better abilities overall. This class appears to be the equivalent of the NPC classes in the DMG.

I would love to see your class, however. Good luck! My attempt became a PrC for half-dragons (see sig). The Draconomicon and the Dragon magazines 320 and 332 seemed to have acceptable (some seemed to even be good) ways to progress as a true dragon.

You forget that you get a d12 hit die each level which includes 6+int mod skill points, all good saves, and good BAB. I haven't play tested the rules above, and I am really not that experienced in D&D (I haven't really played in a group, but I read the rules and online things). I don't think I can really make a class better than the one above (I'd have used a class creation tool), I just thought a lot about it.
Allthegoodnamesweretaken
07-18-07, 10:25 PM True dragons, in my opinion, suffer from the same problem most monster races suffer from: Overinflated LA. It's been stated before that LA is generally set high to discourage use of races with LA, it leaves them underpowered, especially at higher LAs.

A true dragon has the potential to be a really versatile character with great stats all around but it is underpowered with the current LAs. The HD you must gain, while certainly one of the better types of HD out there, compensate quite a bit for the abilities already (as other than basic things like saves, BaB, etc., HD grants no abilities like a class would). I bet it would be rather balanced if you removed all LA except for the blank levels between age categories in the Draconomicon progression.

Edit:The dragon HD is great, but a high LA still cripples advancement of HP (offset somewhat due to generally great Con scores of dragons), BaB, and breath weapon progression (That dragon warlock class has a stronger breath weapon than true dragon characters of an equivalent level, if I remember correctly).
Kesthol
07-19-07, 12:59 AM You forget that you get a d12 hit die each level which includes 6+int mod skill points, all good saves, and good BAB. I haven't play tested the rules above, and I am really not that experienced in D&D (I haven't really played in a group, but I read the rules and online things). I don't think I can really make a class better than the one above (I'd have used a class creation tool), I just thought a lot about it.

Check out my class... http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=883719 I thought it did dragons much more justice without creating an overpowered PC. 15th level character has 10 HD, 5 levels without HD (3 from half-dragon, 2 from class).

Ok, so for comparison, the Barbarian gets d12 hit die, 4+int skill points, one good save, and some wicked special abilities (which improve at every level). In my opinion, the dragon needs all of its special abilities to make it a dragon--otherwise you just end up with a heck of a lizard. So a dragon progression should have a few levels where it does not gain hit dice (to make up for its significant magical improvements, either ones that occur then or are impending--this is why there is an LA on dragons; put another way, the reason a dragon has a breath weapon as strong as it does, with everything else, is that it has a LA). It also makes the dragon less tank-ish; most dragons are not tanks. If your DM blindly charges the dragons at you, he's just sending fire-breathing lizards, not dragons. A dragon is a versatile magical creature, able to defeat its opponents through magic (breath weapon, spells, etc.), trickery (skills, spells), or combat (BAB, Natural Armor, HD). Plus, they are tough to kill (saves, HD, DR, SR, spells).

A "ridiculously high" LA should be balanced, in most cases. Convince your DM to let you run it as a monster class (a little bit of elbow grease can make Savage Species applicable to 3.5), or start out at mid- to high-levels, to allow creatures with higher LA and higher base HD into the game as PCs.

If you want to run a campaign with lower LA, try using the Unearthed Arcana gestalt rules, and allow racial HD and LA to be taken together as one gestalt level. Or build a dragon class that takes up both halves of a gestalt level--so a Dragon 5 is comprable to a gestalt Fighter/Sorcerer 5.
ZerianTheKeeper
07-19-07, 12:04 PM Wyrmling Silver Dragon
Small Dragon (Cold)
Racial Traits
-Starting Ability Score Adjustment: +2 to strength +2 to wisdom.
-Speed: land speed is 30 feet, fly 40ft (average).
-Small: As small creatures, Wyrmling Silver Dragons gain a +1 size bonus to armor class, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, and a +4 size bonus on hide checks, but they must use smaller weapons than medium size creatures do, and their lifting and carrying limits are ľ of those of medium size characters.
-Keen Senses
-Automatic Languages: Draconic, and Common
-Immune to Cold.
-Vulnerability to Fire.
Class Skills
The Wyrmling Silver Dragon class skills are Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Hide, Intimidate, jump, Knowledge (Nature), Listen Search, Sense Motive, and Spot.
Class Features
All of the following are class features of the Wyrmling Silver Dragon monster class.
Feat: Wyrmling Silver Dragon gains a feat at 1st level, 3rd level, 6th level, and 9th level.
Bite: Bite attack deals 1d6+ Strength modifier.
Claws: Claw attacks deal 1d4+ ˝ the dragon’s strength modifier (round down). If claw attacks are secondary attack, they require a -5 penalty on the attack roll. (Many dragons choose the multiattack feat to lessen this penalty to -2).
Keen Senses: A dragon sees four times as well a human in shadowy illumination and twice as well in normal light. It also has darkvision out to 120ft.
Alternate Form: A Wyrmling silver Dragon can assume any animal or humanoid form medium size or smaller as a standard action. This ability functions as a polymorph spell cast on itself, except that the dragon does not regain hit points for changing form and can only assume the form of an animal or humanoid. The dragon can remain in its alternate form until it chooses to assume a new one or return to its natural form. This ability is usable once per day at 1st level and three times per day at 8th level
Immunities: Wyrmling silver dragons are immune to cold at 1st level, paralysis effects at 4th level, sleep effects at 5th level, and acid at 7th level.
Breath Weapon: At 2nd level a Wyrmling Silver Dragon Gains a breath weapon; cone of cold dealing 2d8 points of cold damage reflex (DC 10+ ˝ HD+ Con Modifier) half damage. At 9th level he gains his 2nd breath weapon; cone of paralyzing gas creatures within a cone of paralyzing gas must succeed on a fortitude save (DC 10+ ˝ HD+ Con Modifier) or be paralyzed for 1d6+1 rounds.
Cloudwalking: At 3rd level a Wyrmling silver dragon can tread on clouds or fog as though on solid ground. The ability functions continuously but can be negated or resumed at will.
Blind Sense: At 10th level a Wyrmling Silver dragon can pin point creatures within a distance of 60ft. opponents the dragon cant actually see still have total concealment against the dragon.
Wyrmling Silver Dragon

Level Hit Base Fort. Ref. Will. Skill Special
Dice attack Save Save Save Points

1st 1d12 +1 +2 +2 +2 6+Int x4 Feat, Alternate Form 1/day.
2nd 2d12 +2 +3 +3 +3 6+Int Natural Armor +1, Breath Weapon (Cold).
3rd 2d12 +2 +3 +3 +3 Feat, Cloudwalking, Fly 60ft, +2 Int.
4th 3d12 +3 +3 +3 +3 6+Int Immunity to paralysis, Natural Armor +1, +2 Con.
5th 4d12 +4 +4 +4 +4 6+Int Immunity to Sleep Effect, land speed 40ft.
6th 4d12 +4 +4 +4 +4 Feat, Natural Armor +1, +2 Wis.
7th 5d12 +5 +4 +4 +4 6+Int Immunity to Acid, Fly 80ft, +2 Cha.
8th 5d12 +5 +4 +4 +4 Alternate form 3/day, Natural Armor +1.
9th 6d12 +6/+1 +5 +5 +5 6+Int Feat, Breath Weapon (Paralysis), +2 Int.
10th 6d12 +6/+1 +5 +5 +5 Natural Armor +2, Blind sense 60ft, +2 Cha.
11th 7d12 +7/+2 +5 +5 +5 6+Int f ly 100ft, +2 Wis.
ZerianTheKeeper
07-19-07, 12:12 PM Wyrmling Gold Dragon
Medium Dragon (Fire)
Racial Traits
-Starting Ability Score Adjustment: +2 to strength +2 to wisdom.
-Speed: land speed is 30 feet, fly 60ft (average), Swim 20 feet.
-Medium size
-Keen Senses
-Automatic Languages: Draconic, and Common
-Immune to Fire.
-Vulnerability to Cold.
-Water Breathing
Class SkillsThe Wyrmling Gold Dragon class skills are Bluff, Concentration, Diplomacy, Disguise, Hide, Intimidate, jump, Knowledge (Arcana), Knowledge (Local), Knowledge (Nobility & Royalty), Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot, Swim, and Survival.
Class Features
All of the following are class features of the Wyrmling gold Dragon monster class.
Feat: Wyrmling gold Dragon gains a feat at 1st level, 3rd level, 6th level, 9th level and 12th level.
Bite: Bite attack deals 1d8+ Strength modifier.
Claws: Claw attacks deal 1d6+ ˝ the dragon’s strength modifier (round down). If claw attacks are secondary attack, they require a -5 penalty on the attack roll. (Many dragons choose the multiattack feat to lessen this penalty to -2).
Keen Senses: A dragon sees four times as well a human in shadowy illumination and twice as well in normal light. It also has darkvision out to 120ft.
Alternate Form: A Wyrmling gold Dragon can assume any animal or humanoid form medium size or smaller as a standard action. This ability functions as a polymorph spell cast on itself, except that the dragon does not regain hit points for changing form and can only assume the form of an animal or humanoid. The dragon can remain in its alternate form until it chooses to assume a new one or return to its natural form. This ability is usable once per day at 1st level and three times per day at 8th level
Immunities: Wyrmling gold dragons are immune to fire at 1st level, paralysis effects at 4th level, sleep effects at 5th level, and acid at 7th level.
Breath Weapon: At 2nd level a Wyrmling gold Dragon Gains a breath weapon usable every 1d4 rounds; cone of fire dealing 2d10 points of fire damage reflex (DC 10+ ˝ HD+ Con Modifier) half damage. At 9th level he gains his 2nd breath weapon; cone of weakening gas; creatures within a cone of weakening gas must succeed on a fortitude save (DC 10+ ˝ HD+ Con Modifier) or take 1 point of strength damage.
Blind Sense: At 10th level a Wyrmling gold dragon can pin point creatures within a distance of 60ft. opponents the dragon can’t actually see still have total concealment against the dragon.
Wyrmling Gold Dragon

Level Hit Base Fort. Ref. Will. Skill Special
Dice attack Save Save Save Points

1st 1d12 +1 +2 +2 +2 6+Int x4 Feat, Alternate Form 1/day.
2nd 2d12 +2 +3 +3 +3 6+Int Natural Armor +1, Breath Weapon (Fire), +2 Cha.
3rd 2d12 +2 +3 +3 +3 Feat, Fly 80ft, Swim 40ft, land speed 40ft, +2 Int
4th 3d12 +3 +4 +4 +4 6+Int Immunity to paralysis, Natural Armor +1, +2 Con.
5th 4d12 +4 +4 +4 +4 6+Int Immunity to Sleep Effect, Fly 100ft.
6th 4d12 +4 +4 +4 +4 Feat, Natural Armor +1, Swim 60ft, +2Wis.
7th 5d12 +5 +4 +4 +4 6+Int Immunity to Acid, Fly 80ft, +2 Cha.
8th 6d12 +6/+1 +5 +5 +5 6+Int Alternate form 3/day, Natural Armor +1, +2 Str.
9th 6d12 +6/+1 +5 +5 +5 Feat, Breath Weapon (Weakening), Fly 120ft.
10th 7d12 +7/+2 +5 +5 +5 6+Int Natural Armor +1, Blind sense 60ft, +2 Int.
11th 8d12 +8/+3 +6 +6 +6 6+Int land speed 60ft, Fly 140ft, +2 Con.
12th 8d12 +8/+3 +6 +6 +6 Feat, Natural Armor +2, Fly 200ft, +2 Str.
runestar
07-19-07, 12:48 PM I think draconomicon briefly mentions using dragons as PCs.

The way I see them, they are not really meant as melee characters, more like jack of all trades. With 6+int mod skill points, they can help alleviate the role of skill monkey for the rogue. They can fly, have darkvision and low-light vision, and thus make decent scouts. They might fare as passable combatants, but you still need a primary tank to soak up the damage. Certain dragons, such as silver and shadow, have useful breath weapons to aid in combat as well.

In short, a party might benefit from having 1 to "fill in the blanks", but a party full of dragons is just begging for trouble.
Kesthol
07-19-07, 07:54 PM IIn short, a party might benefit from having 1 to "fill in the blanks", but a party full of dragons is just begging for trouble.

A party full of dragons is not the traditional D&D party anyway, though--everyone could take turns at being the tank, being the skill junkie, being the spellcaster, being the ranged attacker, etc. Party roles are less well defined (excepting dragons with lotsa class levels). And yes, the loss of primary spellcasters will hurt--but you have breath weapons. The lack of divine magic also hurts, but if you are all good dragons, you all will have some access to it. If you are evil dragons, you are probably either 1) all going to die in short order anyway (What LG adventurer could resist trying to take down 4 to 6 evil dragons at the same time??) or 2) too busy razing more villages to the ground to care about that little arrow wound.

On top of that, they are less likely to do dungeon crawls than attack other dragons anyway. The best thing for taking out that pesky wyrm red dragon? 2 very old silver dragons, a very old bronze dragon, and an ancient copper dragon :) (that or something with the ability to do 11 points of Dex damage and beat the dragons SR and Fort save :( ).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BW879 07-16-07, 06:21 PM	First off, I hope I'm posting this in the right place. Awhile back one of my friends showed me a print out he had of how to play and level a dragon as a PC. I have a player in my current group that's interested in doing this with his character but I can't find the info for it any where. Can someone point me in the right direction to find this info? Thanks for any help.
somogyi 07-16-07, 06:31 PM	in the draconomicon the have the ecl's for dragons of most types and ages. but the ecl is very high.
Kesthol 07-16-07, 06:53 PM	:w00t: :dragon: :w00t: 1) Dragon issues 320 and 332 (for metallic and chromatic dragon 20-level monster class progressions) 2) Races of the Dragon (dracon-blooded creatures, including half-dragons) 3) The Draconimicon (dragons, usually best for mid- to high- level parties) 4) Dragon Magic (I don't have this, but I know it has a bit) 5) Look on the boards. I have a prestige class for half-dragon dragon progression posted at the link in my sig. There are a couple other dragon classes out there. There are also a couple other dragon PC threads you might want to browse through. Hope that helped.
bobothechimp 07-16-07, 07:27 PM	The monster manual has hit dice and level adjustments for true dragons.
Faustwizard 07-16-07, 08:19 PM	Im sure there is more stuff out there than the peopl have already given you. try some of the older books, and maby convert it to 3.5, but thats all I can say. If you do get something good, then plaese send me something. If you do, I will send you a paper I wrote that can support dragons through evolution.
Lord_Of_The_Abyss 07-16-07, 09:43 PM	in the draconomicon the have the ecl's for dragons of most types and ages. but the ecl is very high. I disagree, the spiked felldrake is a large dragon with only 6 racial hit die (one less than even the dragonkin) a bite that deals 2d6+5 damage, 2 claws which deal 1d8+2 damage, and a spike attack which is ranged and deals 1d8+5, also, if you use the whole "subtract 10 from even ability scores and 11 from odd ones to figure out the creatures ability score adjustments," you'd end up with +10 str, +4 dex, +4 con, +0 int, +2 wis, and -2 cha. And the best part about it, the spiked felldrake only has LA+2 which means an ECL of 8! Where you're only lacking flight (but with a speed of 40 and a natural ranged attack, who cares?). Do any of you think i should make a thread about the possible brokenness of this?
Kesthol 07-16-07, 11:20 PM	Do any of you think i should make a thread about the possible brokenness of this? No... there are enough people shouting about all the broken things. Just boost the LA if you think it is "broken". And remember, it probably won't need to (or be able to) use weapons or armor--I think that that is worth a significant amount. Comparing it to an 8th level fighter, it may be somewhat more powerful. I think LA of +3 would be justified, and a LA of +4 is pushing it. Plus, it looks like it was intended to be a mount or cohort primarily; the LA probably wouldn't need touching in this case.
Muglock 07-17-07, 06:30 AM	It was definitley created to be a riding mount.
Lord_Of_The_Abyss 07-17-07, 08:50 AM	It was definitley created to be a riding mount. Yes but it has the spiked felldrake under the list of lesser dragon PC's. And Kesthol, while it is true that dragons' hands aren't flexible enough to wield weapons or write, there is always the Jaws of the Dragon, Dragon Armor of Invincibility, and the Claws of the Ripper magic items created for dragon use in particular (though other creatures can still use them).
Kesthol 07-17-07, 09:16 PM	Yes, well, most dragon-fitted items are extremely costly. That is a fairly good balancing factor. And some "dragons" have hands flexible enough to write--humanoid half-dragons. So there may have been a "typo" in the Draconimicon you want to correct. FIX IT! makes stick note reading '+3 LA' and puts it on page 160, 2nd column, over the 'Felldrake, Spiked' entry Happy? No? crosses out '3' and writes in '4' on the sticky Having said all that, :)
NerdNumber1 07-17-07, 11:33 PM	I'm not sure how balanced this is, and it might need a lot of tweeking, but: http://www.kobolds-keep.net/Progressions.pdf I have been thinking of a similiar idea for a while and would love to make a full 20 hit die, 20 level draconic progression.
runestar 07-18-07, 12:01 AM	Yes, well, most dragon-fitted items are extremely costly. That is a fairly good balancing factor. And some "dragons" have hands flexible enough to write--humanoid half-dragons. Only barding would cost extra. Other magic items, such as rings, amulets etc cost the same.:)
ZerianTheKeeper 07-18-07, 11:15 AM	A Gold wyrmling only has a ECL 12 (8HD+ 4LA), I have a Monster class progression for the Gold to 12th level somewhere. I'll look around and see about posting it.
Kesthol 07-18-07, 08:43 PM	I'm not sure how balanced this is, and it might need a lot of tweeking, but: http://www.kobolds-keep.net/Progressions.pdf I have been thinking of a similiar idea for a while and would love to make a full 20 hit die, 20 level draconic progression. IMHO, the dragon class here is significantly underpowered. The half-dragon, with +3 LA, can supplant 5-7 levels of this class--and you end up with better special abilities, and maybe better abilities overall. This class appears to be the equivalent of the NPC classes in the DMG. I would love to see your class, however. Good luck! My attempt became a PrC for half-dragons (see sig). The Draconomicon and the Dragon magazines 320 and 332 seemed to have acceptable (some seemed to even be good) ways to progress as a true dragon.
NerdNumber1 07-18-07, 10:17 PM	IMHO, the dragon class here is significantly underpowered. The half-dragon, with +3 LA, can supplant 5-7 levels of this class--and you end up with better special abilities, and maybe better abilities overall. This class appears to be the equivalent of the NPC classes in the DMG. I would love to see your class, however. Good luck! My attempt became a PrC for half-dragons (see sig). The Draconomicon and the Dragon magazines 320 and 332 seemed to have acceptable (some seemed to even be good) ways to progress as a true dragon. You forget that you get a d12 hit die each level which includes 6+int mod skill points, all good saves, and good BAB. I haven't play tested the rules above, and I am really not that experienced in D&D (I haven't really played in a group, but I read the rules and online things). I don't think I can really make a class better than the one above (I'd have used a class creation tool), I just thought a lot about it.
Allthegoodnamesweretaken 07-18-07, 10:25 PM	True dragons, in my opinion, suffer from the same problem most monster races suffer from: Overinflated LA. It's been stated before that LA is generally set high to discourage use of races with LA, it leaves them underpowered, especially at higher LAs. A true dragon has the potential to be a really versatile character with great stats all around but it is underpowered with the current LAs. The HD you must gain, while certainly one of the better types of HD out there, compensate quite a bit for the abilities already (as other than basic things like saves, BaB, etc., HD grants no abilities like a class would). I bet it would be rather balanced if you removed all LA except for the blank levels between age categories in the Draconomicon progression. Edit:The dragon HD is great, but a high LA still cripples advancement of HP (offset somewhat due to generally great Con scores of dragons), BaB, and breath weapon progression (That dragon warlock class has a stronger breath weapon than true dragon characters of an equivalent level, if I remember correctly).
Kesthol 07-19-07, 12:59 AM	You forget that you get a d12 hit die each level which includes 6+int mod skill points, all good saves, and good BAB. I haven't play tested the rules above, and I am really not that experienced in D&D (I haven't really played in a group, but I read the rules and online things). I don't think I can really make a class better than the one above (I'd have used a class creation tool), I just thought a lot about it. Check out my class... http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=883719 I thought it did dragons much more justice without creating an overpowered PC. 15th level character has 10 HD, 5 levels without HD (3 from half-dragon, 2 from class). Ok, so for comparison, the Barbarian gets d12 hit die, 4+int skill points, one good save, and some wicked special abilities (which improve at every level). In my opinion, the dragon needs all of its special abilities to make it a dragon--otherwise you just end up with a heck of a lizard. So a dragon progression should have a few levels where it does not gain hit dice (to make up for its significant magical improvements, either ones that occur then or are impending--this is why there is an LA on dragons; put another way, the reason a dragon has a breath weapon as strong as it does, with everything else, is that it has a LA). It also makes the dragon less tank-ish; most dragons are not tanks. If your DM blindly charges the dragons at you, he's just sending fire-breathing lizards, not dragons. A dragon is a versatile magical creature, able to defeat its opponents through magic (breath weapon, spells, etc.), trickery (skills, spells), or combat (BAB, Natural Armor, HD). Plus, they are tough to kill (saves, HD, DR, SR, spells). A "ridiculously high" LA should be balanced, in most cases. Convince your DM to let you run it as a monster class (a little bit of elbow grease can make Savage Species applicable to 3.5), or start out at mid- to high-levels, to allow creatures with higher LA and higher base HD into the game as PCs. If you want to run a campaign with lower LA, try using the Unearthed Arcana gestalt rules, and allow racial HD and LA to be taken together as one gestalt level. Or build a dragon class that takes up both halves of a gestalt level--so a Dragon 5 is comprable to a gestalt Fighter/Sorcerer 5.
ZerianTheKeeper 07-19-07, 12:04 PM	Wyrmling Silver Dragon Small Dragon (Cold) Racial Traits -Starting Ability Score Adjustment: +2 to strength +2 to wisdom. -Speed: land speed is 30 feet, fly 40ft (average). -Small: As small creatures, Wyrmling Silver Dragons gain a +1 size bonus to armor class, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, and a +4 size bonus on hide checks, but they must use smaller weapons than medium size creatures do, and their lifting and carrying limits are ľ of those of medium size characters. -Keen Senses -Automatic Languages: Draconic, and Common -Immune to Cold. -Vulnerability to Fire. Class Skills The Wyrmling Silver Dragon class skills are Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Hide, Intimidate, jump, Knowledge (Nature), Listen Search, Sense Motive, and Spot. Class Features All of the following are class features of the Wyrmling Silver Dragon monster class. Feat: Wyrmling Silver Dragon gains a feat at 1st level, 3rd level, 6th level, and 9th level. Bite: Bite attack deals 1d6+ Strength modifier. Claws: Claw attacks deal 1d4+ ˝ the dragon’s strength modifier (round down). If claw attacks are secondary attack, they require a -5 penalty on the attack roll. (Many dragons choose the multiattack feat to lessen this penalty to -2). Keen Senses: A dragon sees four times as well a human in shadowy illumination and twice as well in normal light. It also has darkvision out to 120ft. Alternate Form: A Wyrmling silver Dragon can assume any animal or humanoid form medium size or smaller as a standard action. This ability functions as a polymorph spell cast on itself, except that the dragon does not regain hit points for changing form and can only assume the form of an animal or humanoid. The dragon can remain in its alternate form until it chooses to assume a new one or return to its natural form. This ability is usable once per day at 1st level and three times per day at 8th level Immunities: Wyrmling silver dragons are immune to cold at 1st level, paralysis effects at 4th level, sleep effects at 5th level, and acid at 7th level. Breath Weapon: At 2nd level a Wyrmling Silver Dragon Gains a breath weapon; cone of cold dealing 2d8 points of cold damage reflex (DC 10+ ˝ HD+ Con Modifier) half damage. At 9th level he gains his 2nd breath weapon; cone of paralyzing gas creatures within a cone of paralyzing gas must succeed on a fortitude save (DC 10+ ˝ HD+ Con Modifier) or be paralyzed for 1d6+1 rounds. Cloudwalking: At 3rd level a Wyrmling silver dragon can tread on clouds or fog as though on solid ground. The ability functions continuously but can be negated or resumed at will. Blind Sense: At 10th level a Wyrmling Silver dragon can pin point creatures within a distance of 60ft. opponents the dragon cant actually see still have total concealment against the dragon. Wyrmling Silver Dragon Level Hit Base Fort. Ref. Will. Skill Special Dice attack Save Save Save Points 1st 1d12 +1 +2 +2 +2 6+Int x4 Feat, Alternate Form 1/day. 2nd 2d12 +2 +3 +3 +3 6+Int Natural Armor +1, Breath Weapon (Cold). 3rd 2d12 +2 +3 +3 +3 Feat, Cloudwalking, Fly 60ft, +2 Int. 4th 3d12 +3 +3 +3 +3 6+Int Immunity to paralysis, Natural Armor +1, +2 Con. 5th 4d12 +4 +4 +4 +4 6+Int Immunity to Sleep Effect, land speed 40ft. 6th 4d12 +4 +4 +4 +4 Feat, Natural Armor +1, +2 Wis. 7th 5d12 +5 +4 +4 +4 6+Int Immunity to Acid, Fly 80ft, +2 Cha. 8th 5d12 +5 +4 +4 +4 Alternate form 3/day, Natural Armor +1. 9th 6d12 +6/+1 +5 +5 +5 6+Int Feat, Breath Weapon (Paralysis), +2 Int. 10th 6d12 +6/+1 +5 +5 +5 Natural Armor +2, Blind sense 60ft, +2 Cha. 11th 7d12 +7/+2 +5 +5 +5 6+Int f ly 100ft, +2 Wis.
ZerianTheKeeper 07-19-07, 12:12 PM	Wyrmling Gold Dragon Medium Dragon (Fire) Racial Traits -Starting Ability Score Adjustment: +2 to strength +2 to wisdom. -Speed: land speed is 30 feet, fly 60ft (average), Swim 20 feet. -Medium size -Keen Senses -Automatic Languages: Draconic, and Common -Immune to Fire. -Vulnerability to Cold. -Water Breathing Class SkillsThe Wyrmling Gold Dragon class skills are Bluff, Concentration, Diplomacy, Disguise, Hide, Intimidate, jump, Knowledge (Arcana), Knowledge (Local), Knowledge (Nobility & Royalty), Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot, Swim, and Survival. Class Features All of the following are class features of the Wyrmling gold Dragon monster class. Feat: Wyrmling gold Dragon gains a feat at 1st level, 3rd level, 6th level, 9th level and 12th level. Bite: Bite attack deals 1d8+ Strength modifier. Claws: Claw attacks deal 1d6+ ˝ the dragon’s strength modifier (round down). If claw attacks are secondary attack, they require a -5 penalty on the attack roll. (Many dragons choose the multiattack feat to lessen this penalty to -2). Keen Senses: A dragon sees four times as well a human in shadowy illumination and twice as well in normal light. It also has darkvision out to 120ft. Alternate Form: A Wyrmling gold Dragon can assume any animal or humanoid form medium size or smaller as a standard action. This ability functions as a polymorph spell cast on itself, except that the dragon does not regain hit points for changing form and can only assume the form of an animal or humanoid. The dragon can remain in its alternate form until it chooses to assume a new one or return to its natural form. This ability is usable once per day at 1st level and three times per day at 8th level Immunities: Wyrmling gold dragons are immune to fire at 1st level, paralysis effects at 4th level, sleep effects at 5th level, and acid at 7th level. Breath Weapon: At 2nd level a Wyrmling gold Dragon Gains a breath weapon usable every 1d4 rounds; cone of fire dealing 2d10 points of fire damage reflex (DC 10+ ˝ HD+ Con Modifier) half damage. At 9th level he gains his 2nd breath weapon; cone of weakening gas; creatures within a cone of weakening gas must succeed on a fortitude save (DC 10+ ˝ HD+ Con Modifier) or take 1 point of strength damage. Blind Sense: At 10th level a Wyrmling gold dragon can pin point creatures within a distance of 60ft. opponents the dragon can’t actually see still have total concealment against the dragon. Wyrmling Gold Dragon Level Hit Base Fort. Ref. Will. Skill Special Dice attack Save Save Save Points 1st 1d12 +1 +2 +2 +2 6+Int x4 Feat, Alternate Form 1/day. 2nd 2d12 +2 +3 +3 +3 6+Int Natural Armor +1, Breath Weapon (Fire), +2 Cha. 3rd 2d12 +2 +3 +3 +3 Feat, Fly 80ft, Swim 40ft, land speed 40ft, +2 Int 4th 3d12 +3 +4 +4 +4 6+Int Immunity to paralysis, Natural Armor +1, +2 Con. 5th 4d12 +4 +4 +4 +4 6+Int Immunity to Sleep Effect, Fly 100ft. 6th 4d12 +4 +4 +4 +4 Feat, Natural Armor +1, Swim 60ft, +2Wis. 7th 5d12 +5 +4 +4 +4 6+Int Immunity to Acid, Fly 80ft, +2 Cha. 8th 6d12 +6/+1 +5 +5 +5 6+Int Alternate form 3/day, Natural Armor +1, +2 Str. 9th 6d12 +6/+1 +5 +5 +5 Feat, Breath Weapon (Weakening), Fly 120ft. 10th 7d12 +7/+2 +5 +5 +5 6+Int Natural Armor +1, Blind sense 60ft, +2 Int. 11th 8d12 +8/+3 +6 +6 +6 6+Int land speed 60ft, Fly 140ft, +2 Con. 12th 8d12 +8/+3 +6 +6 +6 Feat, Natural Armor +2, Fly 200ft, +2 Str.
runestar 07-19-07, 12:48 PM	I think draconomicon briefly mentions using dragons as PCs. The way I see them, they are not really meant as melee characters, more like jack of all trades. With 6+int mod skill points, they can help alleviate the role of skill monkey for the rogue. They can fly, have darkvision and low-light vision, and thus make decent scouts. They might fare as passable combatants, but you still need a primary tank to soak up the damage. Certain dragons, such as silver and shadow, have useful breath weapons to aid in combat as well. In short, a party might benefit from having 1 to "fill in the blanks", but a party full of dragons is just begging for trouble.
Kesthol 07-19-07, 07:54 PM	IIn short, a party might benefit from having 1 to "fill in the blanks", but a party full of dragons is just begging for trouble. A party full of dragons is not the traditional D&D party anyway, though--everyone could take turns at being the tank, being the skill junkie, being the spellcaster, being the ranged attacker, etc. Party roles are less well defined (excepting dragons with lotsa class levels). And yes, the loss of primary spellcasters will hurt--but you have breath weapons. The lack of divine magic also hurts, but if you are all good dragons, you all will have some access to it. If you are evil dragons, you are probably either 1) all going to die in short order anyway (What LG adventurer could resist trying to take down 4 to 6 evil dragons at the same time??) or 2) too busy razing more villages to the ground to care about that little arrow wound. On top of that, they are less likely to do dungeon crawls than attack other dragons anyway. The best thing for taking out that pesky wyrm red dragon? 2 very old silver dragons, a very old bronze dragon, and an ancient copper dragon :) (that or something with the ability to do 11 points of Dex damage and beat the dragons SR and Fort save :( ).